Help me with my 30-40 Krag please!

[fatelvis]

I recently bought a like new Ruger #3 in 30-40 Krag. I bought new Brass, and wanted to jam the bullets into the rifling for the first firing to insure good fireforming, but the lands cannot be found, even with a Horn 180 J-bullet. Could you suggest a Boolit that would work well, when the rifling is in the next zip code? Thanks!

[lotech]

I've shot many cast (and some jacketed) bullets through a #3 .30-40 I've had for almost thirty years. As for cast, I've had good luck with Lyman #311284, #311335, #314299, SAECO #301, SAECO #315, and RCBS 30-180 FN. Favorites would be Lyman #314299 and RCBS 30-180 FN, cast of either wheelweight or harder, sized at .310". Seat them out as far as possible. With a fat bullet like #314299, that may not be as far as you think, even in a long-throated .30-40.

[Shiloh]

My 314299 touches the lands on my '98 Krag.

Are the lands on a modern Ruger #3 that far forward??

Shiloh

[elk hunter]

The original U.S. Krag was chambered to shoot a 220 grain, round nose bullet which necessitated a long throat, I suspect Ruger used the original chamber specs so it would be able to digest all factory ammo. My Krags will shoot lighter bullets, but not quite as well as the longer heavier ones.

[Kraschenbirn]

A long throat shouldn't cause you any real concern for fire-forming brass. I've fire-formed several calibers...i.e 8x57 and 7.65x53 from '06, 7.5x55 from .284 Win, and even .30-40 from .303 Brit (neck comes out a touch short but okay for plinkers)...using whatever boolit I had on hand for the caliber I was forming. There's no need to use anywhere near full-bore loads to fire-form; I do 90% of mine indoors, into my handgun boolit trap, using Unique or Herco and, quite often, boolits recycled from the 'remelt' bin.

Bill

[fatelvis]

The original U.S. Krag was chambered to shoot a 220 grain, round nose bullet which necessitated a long throat, I suspect Ruger used the original chamber specs so it would be able to digest all factory ammo. My Krags will shoot lighter bullets, but not quite as well as the longer heavier ones.
I suspect that's the reason for the long jump. I have a 314299 mold, but I assumed it would be too fat for the Krag. Judging by Lotech's advice, If I size it down to .310" I should be GTG? Time to take some measurements.....

[lotech]

Fatelvis: Just checked & my loads using #314299 are seated to an OAL of 3.00", shorter than I would have guessed. As I recall, this is just into the lands. Alloy is wheelweight. While I could not find it in my notes, I probably tried this bullet sized to .311". I do this routinely with most .30 cals., then almost always go back to .310" as best diameter. My number #3 appears to be a very early one; the chamber & throat in your rifle might be a little different.

I got good accuracy with several jacketed bullets between 150 and 180 grains, but, as you experienced, they had to be seated pretty far out.

[Jack Stanley]

Not knowing a lot about the number threes other than my experience with only one of them . Is the 30-40 krag chambering as prone to have a different point of impact every day as the one I had chambered for .223 Remington ? I ask because I know where to find one in the Krag chambering and the shops had it a while , I've got dies and brass . Well , you know the rest , that's almost reason to buy it .

Jack

[Char-Gar]

Ruger builds their SS rifles with a long ball seat as unlike a bolt or even a levergun the SS action has no camping action as the action is closed. Just make a dummy round with a bullet seated out far enough to prevent the block from raising and seat it lower bit by bit until the bolt will raise with the slightest drag on the case head. Set your seating die to that depth and you are good to go.

[williamwaco]

I don't really think it is necessary, but if you want to contact the rifling, try seating the bullets backwards.

[RPRNY]

The original U.S. Krag was chambered to shoot a 220 grain, round nose bullet which necessitated a long throat, I suspect Ruger used the original chamber specs so it would be able to digest all factory ammo. My Krags will shoot lighter bullets, but not quite as well as the longer heavier ones.

Excellent advice.

311284 is THE bullet in the Krag. I do not believe you need to be in the lands to fire form brass but if you do want to, the 311284 is the way to go.

[WALLNUTT]

I've had my#3 30-40 for about 30yrs and always been one of my better shooters with cast. I mostly have used the RCBS 180sp but it engages the rifling with little more than the front band out of the case at.310 diam. Does the nose of your bullet engrave at all ? If not maybe the nose is too skinny. Mine loves a case full of surplus 4831 from WW II. My#3 was made in 1972,don't know when Ruger ceased production. They changed chamber dimensions alot as my#3 45-70 has no ball seat at all and others report having freebore.

[Wolfer]

IMO you only need to jam the rifling on rimless cases. The krag head spaces on the rim doesn't it?

[WALLNUTT]

wolfer is correct,just don't set the shoulder back after the first firing. I even full length size but don't touch the shoulder and am still using the same batch of brass I started with. you really can't jam them much anyway with a single shot due to no camming from the block rising.

[fatelvis]

I didn't think about jamming without camming. Oops! Yes the 30-40 is a rimmed cartridge, but as with my 303 Brit, headspace can be dealt with by a O-ring around the rim, or jamming the bullet when fireforming with virgin brass. I figured the 30 Krag was pretty similar to the 303, so I would follow the same loading techniques to prevent head seps, or at least case stretch.

[Char-Gar]

303 British chambers are way oversized so they could be fired by native troops with dirty ammo, dirty chambers or dirty socks in the chamber. The empty brass was just ejected and not reloaded so case separation upon repeated sizings and firings was not an issue.

30-40 chambers are not oversized in the Ruger rifle. Just shoot the round, and reload the brass, as you would any other round fired in a well made rifle.

The military Krag rifle has chambers somewhat looser than commercial rifles in the same caliber, but not nearly so loosey goosey as the British 303s. Those are "special needs" rifles. Dealing with their quirks cannot nor should not be extrapolated to all rifles firing rimed rounds.

It would be helpful if you would not only tell us what you are trying to do, but why your are trying to do it.

The Ruger No. 3, the 30-40 cartridge is a great cast bullet combination. 311284 was designed for the 30-40 round by Mr. Barlow of Ideal well over 100 years ago and is still one of the best bullets for that cartridge. Just seat the bullet as I described in post #9 above and you will be happy, if you have done all other things right.

[WALLNUTT]

+1 what Char Gar said. My 311284 mold is an old Ideal with almost no lube grooves and a really fat nose,doesn't do well in anything I have. I just got a 314299 but haven't got to try it yet in the 30-40.

[fatelvis]

Well thank you Guys! I did not know the 311284 was actually designed for the Krag....Very interesting. I also didn't realize that the Brits somehow ended up with their socks in their chambers! Lol Now, I must find a 311284 mold, and start casting some 314299s.....

[Char-Gar]

Well the regular British Tommy didn't wash his socks in his rifle chamber, but some of the "native troops" were not that sophisticated. They had some pretty weird guys with rifles in the day of "Empire".

[fatelvis]

Well now the history Bug has bitten me about this cartridge, and I found this:
"The 311284 was the original gas checked bullet developed especially for the Krag back in 1906. The suggested powder charge back then was 23 grs. of "Lightning" for shooting out to 600 yards. Today's equivalent to "Lightning" is 4198 with 5744 being a close 2nd."
Sounds like a good place to start, and I like the idea of experiencing close to the original load. Has anybody tried the 4198 or 5744 load?

[fatelvis]

I couldn't wait for my 311284 mould to arrive, so I loaded some previously cast 311041 boolits sized to .310" as instructed in post#9, and they shot wonderfully! I used 4759 powder, working up from 20 to 23.5 grns. First time using my Magnetospeed also! Five shot averages. Velocities are below:
20.0 grns 4759 - 1743fps avg/ SD 5
22.0 grns 4759 - 1873fps avg/ SD 23
23.5 grns 4759 - 1971fps avg / SD 10

[fatelvis]

Fatelvis: Just checked & my loads using #314299 are seated to an OAL of 3.00", shorter than I would have guessed. As I recall, this is just into the lands. Alloy is wheelweight. While I could not find it in my notes, I probably tried this bullet sized to .311". I do this routinely with most .30 cals., then almost always go back to .310" as best diameter. My number #3 appears to be a very early one; the chamber & throat in your rifle might be a little different.
Would sizing a .314" boolit down to .310" degrade the accuracy potential of the boolit? I think I remember reading somewhere that for every .001" sizing, it will open groups more and more. Is that true, or just theoretical?

[RPRNY]

It should not have a significant or irredeemable impact. It is a general rule of thumb that one tries not to size more than .003" in one go. Worth trying.

[Pb2au]

:popcorn:
I just bought a mold 1898 krag yesterday. Still cleaning and de-coppering. So I will be watching this post with interest..

[selmerfan]

I've got a .30-40 Krag barrel for my Stevens 44 1/2 original frame. (new manufacture barrel) I'm stuck on 17 gr. of 2400 with a 311299 boolit from my NOE mold. It gets me 1700 fps and MOA accuracy to 200 yds. Love it!

[Char-Gar]

Sounds good, at your upper load of 23.5/4759 you have about reached the limits of this powders utility. I should think 4895, Varget or some such similar powder would do you better.

At the 1.8 K fps and below range 4759, 2400 and 4227 all have great utility in the 30-40 round.

It can be true or cannot not be true that sizing degrades accuracy of your bullets. If you use a traditional lube size machine where you shove hard on the nose, you can bend the nose on long skinny rifle bullets, or at least expand it somewhat in an uneven amount.

If you use a nose first, push on the bullet base sizer like the Lee press mounted sizer or a similar set up, you can size your bullet significantly and not degrade accuracy. So it is not how much you size, but how you size that matters most.

[fatelvis]

Sounds good, at your upper load of 23.5/4759 you have about reached the limits of this powders utility. I should think 4895, Varget or some such similar powder would do you better.

At the 1.8 K fps and below range 4759, 2400 and 4227 all have great utility in the 30-40 round.
I believe you are correct, but I wanted to use that 23.5 load because that is the accuracy load listed in the Lyman 4th edition book. I think I'm going back down into the 1700-1800fps range. I know my lube and alloy can handle that pressure level, and I don't particularly like recoil! Lol Also, I never thought about a long, skinny boolit deforming while sizing. So if I wanted to use my RCBS nose first sizer, maybe sizing down in multiple steps would help to eliminate that possablity also. Hmmm.

[fatelvis]

I've got a .30-40 Krag barrel for my Stevens 44 1/2 original frame. (new manufacture barrel) I'm stuck on 17 gr. of 2400 with a 311299 boolit from my NOE mold. It gets me 1700 fps and MOA accuracy to 200 yds. Love it!
Ahhh the old 2400 load. I don't doubt that you are having great luck with it. It's definately on my "to-do" list!

[Char-Gar]

I believe you are correct, but I wanted to use that 23.5 load because that is the accuracy load listed in the Lyman 4th edition book. I think I'm going back down into the 1700-1800fps range. I know my lube and alloy can handle that pressure level, and I don't particularly like recoil! Lol Also, I never thought about a long, skinny boolit deforming while sizing. So if I wanted to use my RCBS nose first sizer, maybe sizing down in multiple steps would help to eliminate that possablity also. Hmmm.

The "accuracy load" in that Lyman book is often a joke and a poor one at that. Lyman's concept of accuracy has nothing to do with how close the bullets land to each other on a target at a given range. In fact Lyman seldom does that. They just shoot a bunch of loads in a pressure gun and the one with the least SD, they designate as their accuracy load. It is not true that such loads automatically shoot better, for it fails to consider a number of other factors that have an effect on how well bullets play follow the leader to the target.

I size my rifle bullets in a press mounted nose first push through sizer and then lube them in a Lyman 450 machine. Most of the time, I use the same die. This makes it a two stage operations, but I am in no great hurry.

I am envious as a Ruger No. 3 in 30-40 is my holy grail rifle. I have never found one when I had any money in my pocket.

In your rifle, I feel confident that 17-18 grains of 4759 or 15-16 grains of 2400 will make you a very happy man. These will be very useful and accurate loads, doing 95% of what we ask our rifles to do.