Antique S&W Top-Break

[Ninety Caliber]

I have an excellent example of a "shooter" 2nd model single action in 38 S&W.
Have no "holy black" experience and would like to use a substitute that will allow smokeless type lubed boolits and easy clean up . Every thing I've read points to American Pioneer or 777. However every source I have says 777 is 15% or so hotter.
Don't want to make a mistake with a 150 year old revolver.I am set up to load smokeless and this is my only BP firearm.American Pioneer is not available in this area.Are my assumptions correct? Any info would be appreciated.
Help please! :)

[Simonpie]

I wouldn't expect 777 to be any cleaner than black powder. I've used it a bit in a rifle and it leaves just as much fouling as black powder and cleans the same way. I also don't think smokeless lubed bullets will like 777 any better than black. It sounds like you want some light smokeless loads, which is OK with me, even if the rest of this forum may have a heart attack. Just use a good book and be safe.

Funny how most of the break opens have the look and feel of junk, but the S&Ws feel refined, if a little dainty.

[dtknowles]

Yeah the 32's and 38's feel puny but the 44's and 45's are real hog legs. A top break in .44-40, double action and a man is well armed. Today you could even have a speed loader. Auto ejection and a speed loader and more poop than a .45 ACP

Tim

[Cmasailor]

i don't personally trust 777 in cartridges meant for true antiques, pyrodex is what I use because I don't have any true black either. put enough powder in the ctg to fill it to the bullet/boolit without an airgap, these pistols like .360 dia but if you use pure lead cast they might bump up. my 38S&W is a 3rd model. I use pyrodex and the lee 105 semi wadcutter because they cast big in my mould.
Fwiw, the current loading of reminton ammo for the 38S&W uses a 357 lead round nose... but I can still hit bottle caps at 15yrds with rem ammo with a barrel that slugs .360... and I have yet to finish a box of 50... but it's what I have in it for defense use so I needed to know if it worked. I have a hard time using reloads for defense...Lawyers

If you're just planning on playing around and not shooting couple hundred rounds everyweek, a box or two of remington ammo should last you and not wear the gun down. there are plenty of people using smokeless in break action pocket 38s for cowboy action shoots, but I advise against a steady diet of anything unless true black or pyrodex. they werent made for it, and the latch that locks the topstrap is Dinky ...

seeing as you're new to blackpowder stuff, anytype of petrol based lube will gunk up and be a bear to clean... use blackpowder type bullet lubes

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Have a couple of these S&W's. Personally I would not shoot any sub BP in one until I had fired numerous real BP loads and got a feel for what it should feel like and what brass measured after firing, how they eject and so forth.
Look at the cylinders walls at the narowist part with magnification for any indication of splitting before firing. You have no idea what other pistoleros have fed that revolver.
But with a steady diet of 3f and a proper size bullet you can happily fire away and appreciate what the common man used for CC 150 years ago.
Mike in Peru

[Ninety Caliber]

Thanks Mike! I know you from the Rossi-Rifleman sight. Appreciate the direction .

[Reverend Al]

I have several vintage S&W (and H&R) topbreaks in .38 S&W and .32 S&W and only shoot them with very, VERY light smokeless loads as they see minimal use and I don't want the cleaning work associated with loading the "Holy Black". From memory I settled on 1.5 grains of Bullseye with a 146 round nose boolit loaded in new production Winchester cases, but I recommend that you do a bit of research for safety's sake before you load anything for your own guns. I didn't want any "high performance" loads, just a very light and safe load to shoot these guns a bit and be able to say that I have done so! (If you've accumulated any brass so far I'd check it carefully for any of the old, vintage "balloon head" cases and weed those out ...)
:Fire:

[texassako]

I shoot several antique cartridge revolvers of unknown credentials. One is in .38 S&W. Everywhere I look it is stated not to use smokeless(different pressure curve(?) even when a light load) or not for break top/non solid frame revolvers. I don't find BP in a revolver to be that hard to clean up anymore, and I just take along a spray bottle of water and some rags in addition to my usual stuff. I have not bothered with substitutes because BP is easy to find and they all have about the same clean up.

[salpal48]

The earlier lyman Loading books 1950/ 60 list smokeless powder loads . But you only know your revolver.

[mikeym1a]

If you can find a copy of the Speer #8 reloading manual, pub 1970, you will find loads for three different bullets. They appear mild, and are intended for the .38S&W smokeless top-breaks. But a mild load might get your old gun talking, again. I've always been fascinated by them, and own several, but no S&W's. Iver Johnson, H&R, and a couple other. Most are in .32, but 2 are in the .38s&w cartridge. I just got some new brass for them, and intend to load some, just for fun. Good Shooting!!! mikey

[Dale53]

If you do your own bullet casting, black powder can be a hoot to shoot! Black powder is easy to clean up if you use a good black powder solvent. I use a home made mix called "Friendship Speed Juice" - it is a mix of one pint each of Rubbing Alcohol, Murphy's Oil Soap, and Hydrogen Peroxide. Keep in a dark bottle. I keep the main amount in a cabinet away from light (Peroxide is damaged by light) and use the dark bottle that the Peroxide comes in for a range bottle. It EATS black powder fouling. After you clean, carefully dry and then I use Ed's Red as a preservative. With all black powder guns, I go back three days later and run wet patches of Ed's Red, again and wipe off the exterior again with Ed's Red as a precaution. My black powder guns, both muzzle loaders and cartridge guns stay in excellent shape with this care.

I would NOT use anything BUT black powder (no finer than 3f) in those old top break guns. Be sure and use a good black powder bullet lube. SPG is THE commercial product. Again, I use a home mix product called Emmert's lube - it is 50% pure natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola Oil. In the past few years I have modified it for better shelf life by replacing the Canola Oil with Anhydrous Lanolin. It works as well as SPG and costs a fraction as much.

FWIW
Dale53

[JimP.]

148 grain hollowbase wadcutter and Trail Boss......JimP.

[Komodoj]

I have a first model S&W lemon squeezer dated about 1883 or so in .32 that I load with 9grs of pyrodex p and a hunters supply .313 diameter 76gr. Flat point. I have fired about two hundred rounds through it and it works flawlessly!!!

[armorer59]

I have 3 .38 S&W top breaks. I fire BP in all of them using a 125grn cast projo lubed with SPG. After shooting several rounds in a side match, cleanup was a breeze. Accurate little buggers too!

[cuzinbruce]

I would only use BP in a gun like that. I have seen what smokeless can do to one. It was a S&W 32 hammerless top-break. Messed up the latch on top and stretched the frame to the point that you had to hold the cylinder back for the hand to rotate the cylinder. That was probably factory 32 S&W loads did it. Long before I ever saw it. Nicely made, tiny little gun in good condition. But there is no way I know of to fix that kind of damage. And it wouldn't be safe to shoot. You would not know if the cylinder was properly lined up behind the barrel.

[Lumpy grits]

Do NOT ever use 777 in an old gun like this one.
777 runs much higher psi than BP does.
LG