Military rifle ?

[starmac]

This is going to sound dumb, but I'm going to ask anyway.

What is the wood above the barrels for on the military arms? Just thinking about it, the only benefit I could see is, to keep contact from a hot barrel to a minimum.

[taco650]

That's what I've always been told.

[30calflash]

Yup, that's why they are called handguards.

[Outpost75]

And it takes only 96 rounds fired ftom an M1 in two.minutes to set one on fire!

[Scharfschuetze]

Military rifles also have a secondary role for bayonet fighting and thus the hand guard to protect, as noted above, the hand when wielding the rifle.

[leeggen]

Outpost75 is this experiance talking??? Would have like to seen the looks on faces!
CD

[Larry Gibson]

Military rifles also have a secondary role for bayonet fighting and thus the hand guard to protect, as noted above, the hand when wielding the rifle.

+1. That's exactly why.

Larry Gibson

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

And it takes only 96 rounds fired ftom an M1 in two.minutes to set one on fire!

If you were in a situation in combat where you needed to fire that many rounds from an M1 in two minutes, you weren't worrying too much about the hand guard catching fire. You had other, more pressing concerns.

Here's a pretty typical load out for a combat soldier/marine of that time:

M1 rifle with 1 8 round clip, an ammo belt with ten pockets (80 rounds) two bandoleers with 48 rounds each, two extras (32 rounds total) in each pocket of his fatigue pants and another four bandoleers in his backpack.

So this is a total of 216 rounds he has reasonably quick access to and an additional 192 he'd have to dig out of his pack. So he'd be firing off approximately half of his immediate access ammunition in one minute.

Based on my own little bit of fun in combat, if I absolutely had to expend that many rounds that quickly, I'd be considering my options of getting me and mine the heck out of there, because me and mine are likely severely outnumbered and possibly outgunned. And I personally wouldn't fire that many rounds that quickly, because the chances of actually hitting anything would be fairly slim. Better to fire aimed shots and conserve your ammo rather than blast it and run out in two to three minutes with plenty of targets of opportunity still available.

[Larry Gibson]

Agree with Dave.....that many rounds that quickly is just spray and pray. Much better to slow down and used aimed fire because when they're "in the wire" only the hits count......and you'd best have that bayonet "fixed".

Larry Gibson

[nekshot]

my uncle (still alive) was one of Edson's raiders and he can tell you of putting alot of rounds thru a springfield ( yes thats what he had) on the final battle night at bloody ridge, he was backed up with no way out but to keep shooting his and then what ever he could find! He is an interesting fella, doesn't talk about it much but you can shoot alot when you have to according to him!

[Larry Gibson]

nekshot

Bloody Ridge was certainly a target rich environment that night...........best to your uncle.

Larry Gibson

[starmac]

I hadn't given the bayonet a thought, but I can sure see where the wood would keep an opponents bayonet from just sliding down your barrel.

[BruceB]

A good friend of mine, whose information I trust, has a broad, smooth scar completely across his left palm. He got it from the HOT barrel of an m2 (full auto) Carbine, which apparently has a reputation for "losing" the handguard in sustained full-auto firing, and also needs to be held down firmly to prevent muzzle climb. The missing handguard allowed the barrel to burn his hand very badly as he hosed down the enemy, with his left hand holding down the barrel.

he was a Special Forces adviser to a Montagnard unit, and they were issued US World War Two small arms...naturally, the advisers used the same weapons as the troops.
\
(On another occasion, a night attack on his position led to his firing of over 600 rounds through a Garand....without a single malfunction!)

This gent has been through the mill, and has multiple scars to prove it.

[Char-Gar]

I have never had one catch fire, but when I got my 03A3 from the DCM back in the early 60's and my pals in the National Guard keep me in ammo, I did get the handguard to smoke a mite one time.

[leeggen]

What a great sight. Ask a simple question and get alot of great stories and answers at the same time.
CD

[pretzelxx]

Not to get off topic, but if you fire that many rounds to melt or catch fire to hand guards, the machine gunners aren't doing their job. Which also have hand guards or "heat shields" on their detachable barrels!

[samwithacolt]

My story is a lot less dramatic, but I can tell you from "de-sporterising" my no 4 Enfeild that it shot a lot better when I put the wood and bands back on. A lot of those old barrels like to be held snugly(don't we all!)

[Larry Gibson]

BruceB

..........m2 (full auto) Carbine, which apparently has a reputation for "losing" the handguard in sustained full-auto firing, and also needs to be held down firmly to prevent muzzle climb.........

As an SF Weapons NCO I saw that several times, mostly with officers though...... Problem was one of improper assembly (retainer not in barrel band slot and the retaining screw not tightened) not any defect in the M2 Carbine. Also if proper FA technique is used (2 -3 shot bursts) the muzzle climb is minimal and the M2 is very controllable in FA fire. None of the submachine guns, FA carbines, Assault rifles and SAWS are meant for sustained FA fire. Controlled burst is the proper technique.....most often lost in training......

Tell your friend another Beret who was "there" says hello and offers the best to him..........

Larry Gibson

[jimb16]

I used to own an M2 carbine (a legal one). I could have the handguard smoking in under 30 seconds. A 30 round mag lasts under 2.5 seconds in full auto. 3 mags in 30 seconds isn't difficult, but I can guarantee it will light up the handguard. And I never had a problem controlling climb even in full auto. The answer is not to fight the recoil.

[JHeath]

Youtube videos of burning handguards:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ESos3gQUfyI
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY

Without handguards, even military bolt rifles get hot enough to make bayonet fighting uncomfortable, instead of the relaxing pasttime it should be.

The Tubb 2000 bolt rifle has a slotted aluminum handguard tube. Probably he could cycle it fast enough to set it on fire if it were wood. Guys like him shoot bolt rifles instead of semi-autos because they don't like waiting for the action to cycle.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY

[insert smiley]

[dale2242]

When barrels are hot enough to make the hand guards smoke, barrels are degrading rapidly.
I guess if you are in a combat situation that requires that much fire power barrel life is not an issue....dale

[Larry Gibson]

Yup, barrels are cheap compared to funerals, life insurance and survivor benefits...........

I put a 1800 - 1900 continuous burst through an M60 machine gun once. No complaints from any officers, NCOs or the Aussie's trying to get to the shot up land rover that was in front of us. The PAVN may have complained when I lifted fire but apparently our infantry were in no mood for conversation........ Barrel was glowing almost white, squad leader dumped some 30W motor oil on it and it burst into flame as if gasoline. Had to use two asbestos barrel change gloves to lift the gun from the cradle as it was that hot. Our M151 was pretty shot up too and was "medevac'd" via wrecker. When the barrel cooled I put the spare barrel on and DX'd the barrel when we got back off that operation. The rest of the gun was still in excellent condition and served me well in the future.

Just a side note about changing barrels with the M60 back then; The front sight was on the barrel and the rear sight on the receiver so the zero was different with each barrel. Yes we did zero the M60s back then and actually knew how to use a GPMG to it's fullest on and off the tripod or pedestal mounts. We used a dog tag (Brigade S1 had the blanks and the stamp machine) and stamped them #1 & #2 and had the elevation and windage info also stamped on them. Wired them to the bipod leg on each barrel. Of course when doing a quick change if PAVN was "in the wire" we didn't bother with changing zero but other wise we did. Amazing what a good machine gun crew can do with a zeroed machine gun off a tripod if the know how to use it correctly, especially the T&E.

Anyway, military gun barrels get hot and that's a good reason for the top hand guard also. Anyone really put some rounds through an M16/M4? Note how hot the hand guards get and especially the upper receiver? That's why the little vertical handle has found favor along with wearing gloves.

Larry Gibson

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

my uncle (still alive) was one of Edson's raiders and he can tell you of putting alot of rounds thru a springfield ( yes thats what he had) on the final battle night at bloody ridge, he was backed up with no way out but to keep shooting his and then what ever he could find! He is an interesting fella, doesn't talk about it much but you can shoot alot when you have to according to him!

My father, James Elmer Dixson, was right in that area with him. He was with the 4th Marines on Guadalcanal and later the 6th Marine Division.

He was an "Intelligence Man" according to his discharge papers, what they now call a "Scout/sniper" for most of the war and talked a lot about "Crawling on your belly like a reptile" and "Running as fast as you can before the d**n japs get you" when telling stories. He also talked a lot about and loved the Johnson Rifle and I believe he carried that rifle on Guadalcanal, though I'm not positive.

He told another story of being with a Tennessee "Ridge Runner" buddy on a sniping mission where they killed 25 japs in one afternoon with 1903A4 and USMC 1903 Unertl Scoped Sniper rifles. He would get to giggling with glee when he told that story.

He passed this past summer and is now standing guard at the Pearly Gates with his buddies. Semper Fidelis