Hi and .357 barrel twist question

[Greener Jim]

Hi, new to the forum so a quick ditty bout me sen. I'm Jim and from England, Yorkshire to be precise. I'm currently serving in Her Majesties Royal
Navy and have had the pleasure of working with both your Air Force and your Navy and a most professional force they are...can't drink worth a damn though!
I grew up around guns and have a few in the armoury which I use for varmint hunting.
With our licenses we have "slots" which have pre-applied for calibers on. I have a spare slot for a 357. My gunsmith has a great quality 9mm blank which is .356 so will be used in an integrally suppressed single shot rifle. Now the blank is 11" (which is why this is in pistols) and 1-10 twist. Will this fast twist work as a 357 barrel. Beauty of my license is it just says 357 so magnum, maximum, 357/44 b&d etc are all feasible.
So to summarise, is the barrel suitable? Bargain price aswell by the way £40 ($65)

[fecmech]

The twist is pretty fast but what might work out really well would be the RCBS 200 gr .35 cal rifle bullet at about 1100 fps. With your suppressor that should work out great. The Max case should let you push heavies fast enough to run into over spin problems. Personally I like shooting subsonic, comfortable, no muzzle blast etc. I'd do it.

[Greener Jim]

Cheers for the response mate. So you reckon magnum case? Subsonic is great especially with moderator on it. That been said the 357/44 is appealing with it's flatter trajectory and easy t make cases. I think I'd get serious problems at 1700fps with heavies and as high as 2300 with 110 grainers though.

[bhn22]

I'd suggest looking at the calibers you can readily get brass for. 357 Max is in short supply here, but 357 mag seems doable, as is 44 mag, for sizing to 357/44 B&D. What action are you looking at using?

[Greener Jim]

Quick bit of maths shows that, everything else equal, there is an increase of 40,000 rpm from 357/44 with 1-14 to 1-10. Upping the weight of the bullet in the 1-10 to 180-200 grains brings the velocity down and gives it the same rpm as the 1-14 with a 158 trainer. Works on paper, work in real life?

[Groo]

Groo here
Greener Jim
Most 38 and 357 barrels are 1-to-14 --- 1-to 18 inch twist.
Your 1-in 10 would spin the bullet so fast as to tear apart. [ at 2300feet per sec]
At least HP's.
The 1-in-10 would work with slow looooong bullets [ moderator friendly]
I doubt you would need a larger case than a 357mag if the freebore in the barrel is long enough.[ load to 357 max levels]
Use your Google-foo and search for 357max loads in a 357 magnum case.
Your singleshot action should hold 40000 to 45000 PSI range loads with a 357 head size.
Also check out 357max in the handy rifle ---- lots of info......
Good luck and keep us updated.......

[Greener Jim]

Spot on mate. That's why 357/44 is so appealing. It's a Greener martini action. Strong as hell action so can take any pressure these throw at it. It was me Granddads and he always wanted a DeLisle so he'd love it!

[Groo]

Groo here
Unless you have a reason ,,, the 357/44 and 357 max are about the same in performance.
The 357/44 has a short neck where a 357max is a straight one.
How about a 35/30-30 or a 357 herrett, both have longer necks and made from 30-30/7.62x51mmR

[Greener Jim]

I could always get my gunsmith to do it so I can run pointy stuff from .35 rem in it. I'm gonna guess that extra thou don't matter in bullet diameter

[Greener Jim]

Mainly it's due to un availability of max brass and 357/44 is easiest t form and perform well in short barrels. I do like the idea of over 500 lbs/ft ME whilst still being subsonic. Should sit bunnies down ha!

[Groo]

Groo here
Steel and some hunters have used 35cal rifle bullets for a Longgggggggg time.
Usually those for 35 Rem as it is a slower round.
In steel they also used the 358win bullet [no expanding]
This was done in single shots where the bullet was seated long [ loads can be found.
Will work in 357 mag and max 357 herrett etc....

[Groo]

Groo
357 max loads can be put up in 357 mag cases in a single shot,,, just seat the bullet long aka 357 max length .
Shooters have been doing it for years in the 357mag handy rifle as the chamber has a long throat.
Just make overall length same as 357max ,use max data , and work up.....

[Groo]

Groo here
If you can use cast, look at all the .357-.358 cast bollets in the 200 to 250gr range!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Greener Jim]

Cheers groo. I think heavy and subsonic is the way forward. It's gonna be used as a rabbit brush gun effectively. Knew I should've joined this forum earlier!

[Groo]

Groo here
Read this---http://www.impalabullets.at/data/IWA/357Esubs.pdf---
Should help.

[Forrest r]

Interesting, most 9mm bbl's are 1 in 10 and they don't tear the bullets apart. I use custom 1 in 12's all the time in my 38/357's, hard to beat heavy bbl's max loads & muzzle breaks on a 357.

96155

Here's a bullet stability calculator, look up a 1 in 10 using a 148gr wc doing 1000fps. It's almost off the charts for stability.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bergerbullets.com%2Flitz%2FTw istRuleAlt.php&ei=Id_2UrzNCsLksASYlYKICA&usg=AFQjCNHUONQWYS_UbFtn6k9chcd230Pzog

There's nothing wrong with a 1 in 10 for 357, use a llllooooooonnnnnnngggggg bodied bullet like a wc & you'll find a match made in heaven.

forrest r

[Greener Jim]

Cheers Groo that was helpful. Forrest R, that's a champion link. Looking at it, a 200 grain job is extremely stable! Not sure on bullet lengths so my numbers aren't accurate but should be a tack driver. Those revolvers of yours are very nice, shame I can't have one!

[Groo]

Groo here
A 180gr 357 tc flatnose is about 3\4in in length, that is fore a 357 revolver.
A 358 rifle bullet will be the same "except" the nose will be longer...
For sub sonic loads ,a bollet for pistols maybe better as much of it is in the case ,reducing the powder charge used.
For super thumpers ,a rifle bullet will use less case allowing more powder..
You can use both with a single shot..

[Greener Jim]

Ah right. Makes sense. Am I right in saying that somehobg longer would be better for me due to my fast twist? A rifle bullet would be good but beartooth do a nice looking long nose cast .357 slug which could do the trick also.

[Forrest r]

You have allot of bbl there to work with & that ='s velocity, lots of velocity. I'd be looking @ a plain old 357mag, easy to get brass/bullets along with the ability to load 38spls for subsonics. That rate of twist would be the cats meow for 148gr hbwc's, they are .625" long.

Even small/short bullets will be stable in that fast twist, take the 9mm for example. It has a 1 in 10 twist & loves to shoot 115gr & 124gr bullets. Play around with some #'s on that twist rate stability calculator in the link above. Punch in a 124gr bullet that's .4" long doing 2000fps (very doable with a 10" bbl's 357). You'll see that your not locked into large heavy bullets.

Good luck, sound like a fantastic build.

forrest r

[Greener Jim]

Cheers Forest. I plugged those numbers into the calculator and it gave me just over 37 which suggests extremely stable. But the calculator doesn't take into account over spin. Having worked out the rpm of those figures I get:
76,800 RPM in a 1-18.75 twist SG-10.57
102,857 RPM in a 1-14 twist SG-18.96
120,000 RPM in a 1-12 twist like yours SG-25.8
144,000 RPM in a 1-10 twist like mine SG-37.16

Obviously that is all theoretical so would appreciate practical input but that is a lot of rotation for a handgun bullet. Would it not start to cause problems?
Thanks in advance

[Forrest r]

Never gave overspin a though, seen too many want-a-be's at the range blasting away with their 9mm carbines along with the latest craze in the ar world. The ar -9mm carbines and uppers are everywhere. Colt is producing 1 that has a 10 1/2 bll with a 1 in 7 twist that they are saying is effective to 100yds.

http://www.colt.com/ColtMilitary/Products/Colt9mmSubmachineGunSMG.aspx#LiveContent[R0991]

You are actually on the cutting edge of of the bbl development for pistol calibers in the short carbine length bbl's. Most pistol ammo has thick jackets compared to the 55gr 223 fmj's that started the world thinking about a bullet's rpm threshold. Plug in the 1 in 7 that's the colt's are using, it's a real eye opener.

I have a custom 10" 9mm bbl for a contender, it was made before bbl makers knew what they know now (1 in 14). It keeps the 10" 22lr, 357 & 44mag company. I like the 10" bbl's on pistols, they balance/point extremely well, have excellent sight radius/pictures & you get allot more hp (horsepower/velocity) the same loads used in the shorter bbl's.

My contender with the 9mm bbl installed.

96562

96563

The latest project, a 115gr cast hbwc to feed the 9mm contender for practicing the 50m free pistol course.

96564

There's a whole new world out there & I'm glad to see that your on the cutting edge. With these new ideas come new bullet designs along with finding the threshold of the old designs. I'm extremely interested in what you come up with & how it performs.

forrest r

[Greener Jim]

Cheers Forest. Yeah I'm looking forward to the rifle but really looking forward t working out a pet load for it. It'll be interesting to see what I can create to run through it. I'd live a high velocity light load and a big, heavy subsonic. Covers all bases. We'll see what the barrel let's me do!

[Greener Jim]

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/page11.html?no_redirect=true scroll t bottom. Handy little chart