Springfield Krag 30-40

[Battis]

I have an 1896 Springfield Krag 30-40 rifle on hold. It's been sporterized. The barrel is 21"-22". The front and rear sights have been modernized. A stock pad has been added. The action is smooth, the bore is very good. No rust anywhere. I know nothing about these rifles (yet), but it caught my eye.
So, with that barrel length, are they a good target/plinking gun? I don't hunt. Anything unusual about reloading them?
It's only $150.

[John Allen]

If you are asking if you should buy it yes jump all over it for that price. They are great shooters.

[madsenshooter]

Nothing at all unusual, except you might find brass hard to come by at times. You might find it outshooting much more modern guns from time to time too. Oh, I almost forgot to warn you that they are addictive. I got a half dozen or more running around here and parts to make more.

[Outpost75]

$150 for a serviceable Krag sporter is a good deal. I paid that much for.one over ten years ago.

Bores on these tend to run large, but vary all over the map. A recipe which works well in most is #314299 or #311299 cast of COWW, sized. 312-.313 for most rifles, with 30 grains of either RL7, 3031, 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget.

[scb]

While I've never seen one the bolts can crack.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199833-What-a-cracked-Krag-Bolt-Looks-Like&highlight=krag+cracked

[Battis]

The store holds guns for a week, no charge. That gives the buyer time to really check it out, which I usually do. I had read about the cracked bolts - now I know what to look for. Apparently two Krags came into the store , the sporterized one I'm looking at and an uncut one. The uncut, full sized one lasted ten minutes.
There was an original .41 Swiss round (Vetterli) on a shelf behind the counter that they sold to me for a few bucks.

[uscra112]

That price is is steal, even if the barrel turns out to be junk. Only a cracked bolt, (rare) or a cracked receiver, (even more rare - look close to the corners of the lug recess) would put me off. Parts are readily available. And the .30-40 cartridge is one of the best ever for boolits. Pictures as soon as she comes home with you please.....

[Char-Gar]

The Krag rifle is a pet of mine having four at this time. I got my first one in 1959 and shot my first deer with it a year later. The Krag rifles were sold very cheaply between the wars and many people chopped their barrels and sporterized them to one degree or another. I have three such sporterized Krags with barrels of 22, 24 and 25 inches. They all do just fine with cast bullets.

Krags have barrel groove diameters all over the map running from .308 to .312 with .3095 being a common size. Regardless of barrel groove diameter, they all have generous chamber throats and cast bullets of .312 to .314 will do better than smaller. I use .313 or .314 sized bullets and they work in all of my rifles regardless of the barrel groove diameters of .308 - .312.

Please bear in mind all of these rifles are well over 110 year old and are somewhat brittle. They are safe enough to shoot, but don't try and hot rod the Krag. The nice thing about the Krag is when an action lets go, the gas is not trapped and while the rifle may be toast, they do not turn into grenades.

For fun, here is a pic of my first Krag sporter I bought in 1959 for $15.00. It is still in service with me to this day. It has a 22" barrel and a barrel groove diameter of .3095 and was made in 1901.

[Battis]

The store puts these rifles right where I can see them - Schmidt Rubin 96/11, Vetterlis, 50-70, Gallagher. They had a really nice looking Swedish Mauser last month for about $300 - if I had known what it was...it was gone in a half hour.
Is there a serial number listing for the Krags? This one is 75050 (or there abouts).

[TheGrimReaper]

150.00 it would have already been home.

[pworley1]

You will love that Krag. A complete bolt is worth that price. All mine seem to like the Lyman 311184 over 27.5 g of imr 3031 and the lee 309-200r over 28g of imr 3031. They both run around 1700'/sec.

[Battis]

IMR4895 is listed as a choice for the 30-40, but not H4895 (which I have). In searching around, the discussion about these powders has come up before, with different opinions. As Huggie Bear used to say on Starsky and Hutch, "They're exactly the same, only different."
Wow, I'm old.

[madsenshooter]

That serial # is in the neighborhood of some 96 carbine serial #'s, but don't take that as a for sure. I don't have the list of "blocks" a collector once compiled anymore. What I mean by "blocks", is at one time, they made rifles for awhile, then switched to making carbines for awhile, then back. Later they made both at the same time. Best to ask at the link for an SRS check. SRS is Springfield Research Service, research by a fellow who wrote a book on Krags, the late Franklin Mallory. At the link some of the fellows have access to his book, which is expensive, and they can tell you if there's any documented service for your serial #, and whether or not it may have once been a carbine or rifle. http://www.jouster.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?12-Krag-Rifle

If you look at the 30-40 data on Hodgdon's data page, they go higher with H than IMR, but don't have pressure data for the H.

[Battis]

I was wondering if it could have been a carbine instead of being cut down. Is there any way to tell by looking at it? (barrel cut, etc). There is what looks like a rectangular metal patch on the left side (maybe brass or copper) and the salesman told me that is where the saddle ring had been. Saddle ring? I haven't seen any pics of Krags with saddle rings.
Well, I'm going back tomorrow, even if I gotta break out the sled dogs. Thanks for that link.

[Battis]

I picked up the Krag after examining it pretty well. No crack in the bolt, but the stock has an old repair. I think I can reinforce it. The bore is dirty but in great shape. The front sights...well, they'll do for now. Same with the rear sights. I gotta find a better barrel ring. I have two from a 50-70 but they're too small. I still haven't seen any pics of Krags with saddle rings on the side but what else would that patch be? I got a box of twenty 30-40 cases - 16 fired and four loaded rounds - for $6.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4745_zps02170b30.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4746_zps717fdfdb.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4747_zps93d442b4.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4748_zps92dbe571.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4751_zpsfa52f29d.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4752_zps1c928dc1.jpg

[madsenshooter]

Well, the stock appears to have once been the short, 1896 carbine stock. Later 1899 carbine stocks did not have the place for the saddle ring. Can't say for sure still. The carbine barrel bands were retained with a spring, and I don't see the slot for that spring in your pic. If it was once a carbine, under your front sight would be the dovetail for the original Krag sight and barrel length, measured from the bolt face to muzzle with a rod would be 22". But, it could still be a cutdown rifle in a saddle ring carbine stock. Best to check at the link above, collectors there know more than I do, I just shoot them. More pics please, nose end of stock. If it was an 1896 carbine you got a real steal and even if a cutdown rifle a very good buy!

[Battis]

From the bolt face to muzzle is 22".
I removed the rubber stock pad.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4765_zps9af3d497.jpgMore pics:
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4781_zps27540513.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4773_zps73bac559.jpg

[madsenshooter]

Not much help, if it once had a band spring there would be a slot on the right side of the nose for it, which might have been filled. I do know there weren't any rifle stocks made with the saddle ring. The crown appears original, but that's easy to duplicate. If it was duplicated, it was many knocks ago. I see you made to Culver's, you'll get an answer there.

[Battis]

Any reason or purpose for the holes in the stock?

[madsenshooter]

The one in the bottom of the forearm was likely for a nonmilitary sling swivel, or a barrel band of some sort. The three small hole in the buttstock were for cleaning rod sections, though the carbine only needed two. The larger holes in the buttstock were simply to make the stock lighter, and to store an oiler. When you take it apart you'll find slots in the barrel channel that were also put there to lighten it. Those slots were distinct for the carbine vs rifle. Early carbine stocks only had two holes for cleaning rods. Early carbine stocks had a slightly thinner wrist too, 1.675" for the early stock wrist, 1.8" for the later.

I enlarged your first pic that shows the barrel band, and "I think" I see a filled in barrel retainer spring slot.

[BruceB]

My own Krag seems to be one of the "NRA Sporters", converted from long rifles at Benecia Arsenal in the '20s.

The front sight is the Model 1903 Springfield type, mounted on the same barrel band as used on the 1903.

My stock has the original plate for the sling ring (not "saddle ring") still present, without the bar, but the places where the bar was ground off are faintly visible through the blue. The inlet for the plate is exactly the same shape as that on your stock.

You have a great rifle at a bargain price....enjoy.

[Battis]

Here's a saddle ring for sale on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Krag-Carbine-Saddle-Ring-Bar-/191050429130?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7b7e32ca

Here's a pic of the inside of the stock, and one of the outside where the ring sits:
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4787_zps2ec73f63.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4788_zpseb8f704d.jpg

My Schmidt Rubin 96/11 can shoot the GP11 ammo, but the 1889 models can't. Any problems shooting modern ammo in the Krags?

[madsenshooter]

No problem with what modern ammo you might find, I think they only make 180gr anymore. That's a carbine stock, 2nd type, no doubt, if it was a cutdown rifle stock, a lightening cut would had to have been filled at the end of the nose. I can make out a filled band spring slot too, starts at the sorta circular dent, looks like it's filled with plastic wood or something. Also looks like there has been some work done with same stuff where the correct band would fit. It's going to take someone from Culver's who knows for sure to tell you if the serial # is correct for a carbine though. The SRS check indicates it may have been a rifle receiver at one time, but someone with a bit more knowledge will chime in.

Here's a site with some pics of what an 1896 saddle ring carbine should look like: http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/

Here's a proper band: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Original-Model-1896-Krag-Carbine-Band-/191056421054?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7bd9a0be

And if you think those two items are expensive, wait till you see the money a 96 carbine sight brings! You should just sell it to me, double your money and let me worry about coming up with those parts!

[Battis]

I'd like to remove that front sight (Lyman) to see if there's a dovetail, but I have to figure out how it's attached. Actually, the sight picture is really good with the two replacement sights, even if they're historically wrong. I'm guessing this rifle will be a great shooter with reduced loads.

I had a brain freeze when you talked about the slot for the spring that holds the ring, then it dawned on me when I looked at my 50-70. Yep, there's a filled in slot in the wood - I can see it and feel it with my finger.

The cost to "restore" the gun would be high for the needed parts - both sights, barrel ring and spring, saddle ring, buttplate. If I wanted to sell it after I restored it, I could never sell it as original, but only as "complete."
The bore is mint, the action flawless - I want to shoot it but I don't want to destroy or harm any of its history, even if it's not really historically significant. That's why I'd reload with reduced loads.
I gotta stay out of that store. They have a nice Vetterli, still in rimfire, for $195, but I already have two...

[madsenshooter]

Only better deal Krag-wise was a fella who walked out of a pawn shop with an unmodified model 1892. Can't remember the price exactly, less than a grand, for a rifle that would bring close to ten grand if not more. I think your biggest problem would be finding the wood needed to fix the butt, but I might have the answer to that somewhere amongst my junk, the PO delivered one of my 92/96 Krags broken in two at the wrist, and I saved the wood parts. Will take me awhile to find it, haven't seen it lately. If that front sight is like a Lyman sight I have, and it looks like mine, there's a screw in the dovetail which holds the sight on. What you have is an example of what Teddy Roosevelt and other cavalry used during the Spanish American war. Not a collectors piece but still a piece of history. Have fun with it while you can.

[Battis]

The front sight is a Lymans. I'll probably just leave everything as is, and shoot the rifle. Thanks for the help IDing it.

[leadman]

I shoot mine with 12 or 13grs of SR7625 and the 311041 Lyman boolit. Mine is also sporterized, probably in the 20s as it has a piece of that funky plastic that is grey with red, green and whatever spots in on the pistol grip as a cap. The pistol grip was inletted in the stock and checkered. Also has an old unmarked Lyman receiver sight with the lever to loosen the slide for elevation. Must have been a rifle stock as it is cut to carbine length but shows a piece of filler wood in the nose.
Still has the original buttplate and front sight.
Fun gun to shoot but like the OP gun to expensive to restore.

[Battis]

The stock has been repaired (see pic). I'm not sure if the damage went all the way through. Should I reinforce it with a rod or whatever? I'm thinking it's an old repair, so the gun has been fired with it that way.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4748_zps92dbe571.jpg

[Battis]

I went to the range this morning with 4 rounds of factory Winchester 180 gr rounds. 4 rounds was enough - the temp was 19 degrees with a wind.
It kicked like I thought it would - sharp and serious. Good thing I had my Man Pants on. It shoots low at 100 yds but once I adjusted upwards, it was right on the gong. The action was smooth and easy. I think the repaired stock is fine.
I think reduced loads and a smaller bullet would be good. Great gun, definitely The Real Deal.

[MUSTANG]

Enjoyed the thread. I have a full dress military Krag I bought back in 1994 which I have not shot yet. I bought a "Sporterized" Krag last November at the Kalispell Gun Show for $150.00.

Two weeks ago when the temp warmed up to low 30's, I took the Sporter out for a try. Manufactured 8 rounds from 303 Brit Brass, and two rounds of 30-40 Krag brass from range finds using NOE 311395 boolits sized to .311. Used 50 Grains of WC860 for powder. Shooting at 100 Yards I was able to see impacts in the berm where the target was located, but not a single round hit the target. I will have to shoot the next string at 25 or 50 yards in hopes of getting started on a zero. Rear sights are original Krag sights, front site blade appears to be a Shop Made brass blade.

Pics follow:

96065

96066

96067

96068

96069

[madsenshooter]

Mustang, it might help things if you turned the rear sight around, she's on there backwards. But maybe it needs to be that high.

[Battis]

Manufactured 8 rounds from 303 Brit Brass
I was wondering if the brass could be formed from another caliber. The local gunstore sells the Winchester 180 gr rounds for about $35 (20 rounds). They also sell the dies. I gotta get a better bore measurement, now that I scrubbed the grooves. I use a .308 FMJ 155 gr in my Schmidt Rubin, but they're probably too small for the Krag.

[Char-Gar]

The front sight band and base are from a 1903 Springfield. Replacement blades in various heights are not hard to find.

[madsenshooter]

I was wondering if the brass could be formed from another caliber. The local gunstore sells the Winchester 180 gr rounds for about $35 (20 rounds). They also sell the dies. I gotta get a better bore measurement, now that I scrubbed the grooves. I use a .308 FMJ 155 gr in my Schmidt Rubin, but they're probably too small for the Krag.

I've shot some pretty good groups with 168gr .308 match bullets out of a .310 groove diameter Krag. I only loaded them to 2000fps to stay somewhere near the markings on the sight, which I wasn't using at the time, but I was very impressed. Let me see if I still have that pic. Found it. I shot the group with 3x7 LER scope on a Kraghaus mount. Only brass I know you could make 30-40 from is .303, and it comes out short. Grafs shows Rem brass in stock. Dang the prices keep going up and up!

[MUSTANG]

Mustang, it might help things if you turned the rear sight around, she's on there backwards. But maybe it needs to be that high.



Thanks for the observation. Probable reason for missing the target as that reversal represents many Minutes of Angle elevation given the taper of the sight base.

I just pulled the sight and base off the barrel and it was full of rust and crud where it mates with the barrel. Cleaned it, reversed the sight base to the correct position and reattached. Wonder how long ago someone turned it around; and why - mistaken reassembly?

The long screw on the sight base sits high and does not want to go all the way into the recess machined into the sight base. I'll have to do some investigating and see if it is buggered and needs dressing, or if it's the wrong screw, and the head needs dressed down, or a total replacement.

Still a great rifle for the price I paid; just hope it becomes a good shooter. Too cold to go to the Range this morning (6 degrees), and the road up the Mountain to the range is a 4" layer of solid ice; passable going up in 4 Wheel drive, but a Thrilleeeeeeer coming down. Perhaps we'll get a few inches of snow over it in the next few days with the front coming through.

[Char-Gar]

Did you move the screws also when your turned the sight around, you should.

[MUSTANG]

I was wondering if the brass could be formed from another caliber. The local gunstore sells the Winchester 180 gr rounds for about $35 (20 rounds). They also sell the dies. I gotta get a better bore measurement, now that I scrubbed the grooves. I use a .308 FMJ 155 gr in my Schmidt Rubin, but they're probably too small for the Krag.


Battis:

In the below picture are left to right:

96246

Left - A 30-40 round reformed from 303 Brit Brass, it has a RCBS 165 Sil Boolit installed.
Center - A 303 Brit Case unsized.
Right - A W-W Super, 30-40 case.

Looking at the converted 30-40 case on the Left, you can see after resizing (and firing in a 30-40 chamber), the Shoulder sits lower than the 303 Case in the center. The fired 30-40 case on the right has the same lower shoulder.

Looking at the two cases on the Left and Center, you can see that the 30-40 converted from the 303 British, and the 303 British case in the center, both are shorter (about 2.24" long) compared to the 30-40 case (about 2.304" long). My supposition is that this will not pose a problem other than a slightly less resistance holding the boolit compared to the longer neck of the actual 30-40 case. It may have nuisance factors similar to firing .38's in a .357 chamber; specifically build up of unburned powder and soot just ahead of where the mouth sits, and leading at the same locations if poor choices in alloy and sizing are made.

If you look closely, the 30-40 Krag case (on the right) is showing sign of case failure about .320 inches above the Rim.

[MUSTANG]

Did you move the screws also when your turned the sight around, you should.

The longer screw is with the higher portion of the Sight base. The shorter screw is with the shorter portion of the Sight base. This is required in order to engage the threads in the barrel.

[Char-Gar]

Yes, the 303 British case is shorter than the Krag case with a shorter neck and a longer shoulder. That is the way it is supposed to be.

303 British cases can be made from Krag brass if they are trimmed to the shorter length after resizing which sets the shoulder back.

I would not reverse the process and make Krag brass from 303 brass. Best to wait and get a supply of Krag brass.

The Krag case on the right looks normal. I see no signs of case separation, the bright ring ahead of the web is just from normal sizing. It marks the end of where the die sized the case. The head did not expand and required no resizing.

To check for incipient case separation, take a paper clip, straighten it and put a little hook on the end. Insert it in the case mouth and run the little hook over the inside of the case wall. If you feel a little "tick" where the ring is, you have a problem. If no "tick" then you don't have a problem.

[Char-Gar]

The longer screw is with the higher portion of the Sight base. The shorter screw is with the shorter portion of the Sight base. This is required in order to engage the threads in the barrel.

Correct. I didn't know whether the screw fit better before you turned it around. Krag sight screws are odd ball threads and are not easy to come by. From time to time you can find replacement screws on Ebay, but they require shortening and having the heads turned as well. These after market screws are made long and big to fit the Trapdoor Springfield as they had the same odd ball threads.

It is not difficult to shorten and turn the screw head, but if you have not done it before, Krag sight screws are not a good learning project. If they hold your sight on tight and the sight works OK, I would leave well enough alone.

[MUSTANG]

Char Gar:

You are absolutely right on not "Learning" on the 30-40 Screws. Last week I saw a set of Sight base screws on the Internet listed at an amazing $107.00