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View Full Version : First time casting and powder coating *Pic heavy*



jacobslagle018
02-03-2014, 07:47 PM
Hey everyone. Just wanted to run my first casting session by everyone and get opinions and hopefully answer a question or two:grin:.

Anyways I am using a Lee 120gr .356 TC mold. Pretty easy once you get the process down.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173119.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173119.jpg.html)

I then went on to use a harbor freight powder coat gun with black powder to get this.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173224.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173224.jpg.html)

I was using a .357 sizing die so either it is off or my calipers.:roll:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173421.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173421.jpg.html)

Here is the overall length after sizing, flaring, and seating the bullet. Came out to 1.115. The bullets in the picture are just dummy rounds. No powder or primer.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173541.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173541.jpg.html)
Nice fit into the case gauge.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173609.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173609.jpg.html)

Now the questions appear. Below is a picture of the round in my M&P 9c barrel. It clearly doesnt go all the way in on its own. I can push it just a little and it goes no problem. Is this normal for cast rounds or is something wrong here? First picture is a cast round, the second is a FMJ I loaded a little while back. The FMJ drops right in.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173647.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173647.jpg.html)
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173728.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173728.jpg.html)

I am just wondering if this is to be expected or if I am a complete idiot that should no be casting. I loaded 5 dummy rounds. I loaded them in a mag and racked them. The slide went all the way forward just like a normal FMJ round. I could tell a slight difference when racking the slide though. It felt like the rounds needed a little extra force to get out or something.:???: I was wondering if this is normal as well. I know for a fact that the fmj rounds are .355 where these cast rounds are .356-.357. Anyway thanks for your time and patience with a rookie. Any and all help will be taken.

w0fms
02-03-2014, 07:53 PM
It looks like it's a tight fit in your barrel, but being 0.001-0.002" over is desirable in cast, even with powder coating a jacket on it. (It's always better to be a "little big") I'm not as experienced as a lot of the guys here, but it looks pretty good to go to me. Work up your loads as usual, but don't go quite as heavy as you would with the FMJ's..

As long as your gun chambers the dummies fine, you should be GTG...

As for the calipers, those HF digital calipers do have that much uncertainty. I'd recommending on getting a micrometer for your tool kit.. even the cheap HF ones are 0.0001" accuracy...

Looks pretty nice for a first batch...

One other comment, is the OAL of 1.115" what you were using for FMJ? It that correct for that Lee mold? It almost looks like the boolit could be seated in a little deeper, but I'd have to know more about it to say.. in general, and especially for 9mm seating at the max OAL that you can chamber in your barrel is a good thing, tho...

jacobslagle018
02-03-2014, 08:15 PM
One other comment, is the OAL of 1.115" what you were using for FMJ? It that correct for that Lee mold? It almost looks like the boolit could be seated in a little deeper, but I'd have to know more about it to say.. in general, and especially for 9mm seating at the max OAL that you can chamber in your barrel is a good thing, tho...

My normal fmj loads are 1.115 as well. The lyman 49th calls for 1.110 for this cast bullet. I figured .005 more to keep my die in the same position would be ok. At that seating depth, the top line of the mold grove is just covered by the case.

Super Sneaky Steve
02-03-2014, 08:46 PM
Did you taper crimp?

Jailer
02-03-2014, 09:19 PM
You're going to have to adjust the seating depth to what works in your gun. As you discovered, just because it fits the guage doesn't mean it will fit your gun.

jacobslagle018
02-03-2014, 10:42 PM
Yes, there is a slight taper crimp on the round. I am just wondering if this would be ok to load. I was not sure if this was normal for cast bullets, as this was my first attempt at it.

sirAIG
02-03-2014, 10:56 PM
i would load a few dummies with a handful of different OAL's and cycle them through your gun. When I do this, I do not slingshot the slide - I hold the tension of the recoil spring back and slowly let the slide move forward. If there are any hindrances of the round chambering, I have always seen it during this test.

jacobslagle018
02-03-2014, 10:58 PM
Here is one of my usual FMJ rounds compared to the new cast.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173804.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_173804.jpg.html)

Here is one that has been racked a few times. You can see that the powder is coming off and it has a slight crimp to it. Im not sure if the PC is wearing off due to ejection or when going into battery.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_215143.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_215143.jpg.html)

sirAIG
02-03-2014, 11:05 PM
Looks to me it could be happening when it is going into battery. I have never loaded 9mm, but I would seat that boolit so the taper is closer to the case mouth. It also appears in the picture that you could relieve the taper crimp. A severe crimp will/can swage the boolit down as it exits the case.

Just what little knowledge I have!

jacobslagle018
02-03-2014, 11:16 PM
Looks to me it could be happening when it is going into battery. I have never loaded 9mm, but I would seat that boolit so the taper is closer to the case mouth. It also appears in the picture that you could relieve the taper crimp. A severe crimp will/can swage the boolit down as it exits the case.

Just what little knowledge I have!

I just backed the crimp up a little and it is just noticeable. I also did what you suggested with a slow controlled rack. It did go into battery. I as slowly as possible ejected it and it seems the coating is scraping off when going into battery as well. I think I am at the right seating depth. maybe it is just the bullet shape giving me worries that I dont need to have. Just nervous with my first casts I guess.:???:

sirAIG
02-03-2014, 11:20 PM
In my opinion, reloading manuals are good for a baseline, but my ammo hardly ever meets the OAL specs. I ran into similar problems using the Lee 175TC mold for 40sw. I ended up seating my boolit deeper and the issues stopped. I'm not saying disregard the reloading manual, but I starting learning the most when I start venturing into he unknowns

popper
02-04-2014, 12:05 AM
I would try seating a little deeper so the coating doesn't get scraped. If the coating gets thick it may not chamber completely. Don't let the front band go into the bore.

fcvan
02-04-2014, 12:18 AM
Same boolit, same PC, HF flat black. I seat mine deeper almost to where the shoulder of the boolit is flush with the case mouth. Oh, and I size to .358 and always have. I really like the way the TC boolits perform in my 9mm and 40 S&W, and am further considering getting a TC mold for my 45 ACP.

sirAIG
02-04-2014, 12:20 AM
Same boolit, same PC, HF flat black. I seat mine deeper almost to where the shoulder of the boolit is flush with the case mouth. Oh, and I size to .358 and always have. I really like the way the TC boolits perform in my 9mm and 40 S&W, and am further considering getting a TC mold for my 45 ACP.

This. I load the 230gr Lee TC fpr my dads xd, they shoot great. Same thing, I seat the Boolits much deeper , works perfectly.

xacex
02-04-2014, 12:27 AM
When I loaded that boolit I loaded it deeper than that. Almost all the way to the shoulder fit every gun I tried it in. Great job on the coating.

jonp
02-04-2014, 12:43 AM
Deeper

jacobslagle018
02-04-2014, 01:11 AM
Does this look better? OAL of 1.050. Is that too short?

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/killertn_2008/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_225613.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/killertn_2008/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140203_225613.jpg.html)

xacex
02-04-2014, 02:43 AM
That works, but I go a tad longer. You will get better accuracy if you have less jump. However,you wont have a problem feeding those.

captaint
02-04-2014, 09:00 AM
mFF - OK, now try that plunk test again with your barrel. Bet it drops all the way in. As someone mentioned, you could experiment with seating the boolit out a LITTLE further. Also, unless I missed it, you didn't mention what your specific load was. With the 9mm we need to be aware of boolit seating depth as it relates to available powder space - pressure issues can happen with some powders, most actually. Mike

stu1ritter
02-04-2014, 09:02 AM
I would also check that caliper against a micrometer just to make sure you are accurate at the dimension you are measuring. I've found almost all vernier's are off a thou or two against a 10 thou mike.
Stu

gefiltephish
02-04-2014, 10:01 AM
For my 9mm guns and that bullet, I use oal of 1.060, except the LC9 which needs 1.090. Just use your barrel and do the "plunk" test. It will tell you exactly what the correct length needs to be. Yours may be different than anyone elses. Also, based on your first bullet photo, it looks like it could use a little better fill out, which may explain why you only get .356 after sizing...perhaps too small to begin with. What size do they drop at?

EMC45
02-04-2014, 11:38 AM
I would seat till about 30 thou shows of the front band, size to .358 and crimp just enough to remove the "bell" from the case mouth. Crimp to where the case walls are straight all the way to the end. That's just me though.....

jacobslagle018
02-04-2014, 11:39 AM
As far as powders go I only have HS-6 and Longshot right now. Supplies are still really tight where I live. Lyman 49th has a load for HS-6 but the OAL said it needed to be 1.110. Should I just use the min load it has listed as a start?

sirAIG
02-04-2014, 11:47 AM
If it were me, I'd drop my starting load 1 or 2 tenths of a grain. But even at the min load, you should be okay

popper
02-04-2014, 11:56 AM
You could go~ 0.01-0.015 longer without problem. I use 231, not HS6 but I would start at the low jacket load.

xacex
02-04-2014, 01:05 PM
I just looked at my load data, and some I had loaded up from a couple of years ago. The COAL I have been using on those is 1.060". Fed in all the 1911's, glocks, ect. I have tried them in. I to noticed you may not be casting hot enough. The lower drive band on the one that was not coated is rounded. It should be sharp. Dont worry if they are a little frosty. It helps the powder coat stick.

w0fms
02-04-2014, 07:12 PM
Have to concur with deeper.. and I was hinting at that yesterday.. probably what would be best is to just keep backing the die down in small increments until you get it smooth. ESPECIALLY in 9mm the largest OAL that will work (in all of your guns or) gun is the best bet for accuracy and pressure... But it still looks good.. should work well when you get it all figured out too....

sirAIG
02-04-2014, 07:43 PM
Not to hijack this thread, but can you briefly explain why the longest OAL you can run is best for 9mm in all applications?

xacex
02-04-2014, 08:27 PM
Not to hijack this thread, but can you briefly explain why the longest OAL you can run is best for 9mm in all applications?

Reducing the jump from throat to lands affects accuracy, but with semi auto pistols it is a balance between what guns you would be using the cartridge in, reliability, and accuracy. With rifles you want to be .001 to .005 off of the lands for best accuracy, but in a semi auto pistol that is not always possible. Reducing the jump reduces the chance that the bullet tips as it is released by the neck, and enters the rifling straight. For short range work, and plinking this kind of accuracy is completely unnecessary. Frankly, most of the time I don't worry about it and work at an OAL that will work in all of my guns reliably, but that means my accuracy drops to over 1" at 7 yards or 21 feet.

Walter Laich
02-04-2014, 11:31 PM
FWIW: I load my non-coated TC bullets a bit deeper than the first pictures. I load at the lower (-est) end of the table just enough powder for plinking loads--getting too old and carpal tunnel took the hot load off the table.

Bullwolf
02-05-2014, 04:37 AM
Judging by your pictures, that Lee TC bullet needs to be seated a tad lower until it will easily pass a plunk test in your pistol barrel.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76055&stc=1&d=1373733592



I saw a great example of this interference fit from an Image on the CZ forums. I'm going to borrow and re-paste that image here.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dScRenzwZzE/Tz3NEksXtcI/AAAAAAAADOU/_pS6NKuOtrU/w860-h645-no/Bullet+Shapes.jpg



I use a different TC bullet (Lyman 356402) for 9mm than the Lee one, and I can seat it out at 1.15 with no problems in my 9mm pistols.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52370&d=1304738207


However that Lyman design is a bit narrower than the Lee TC design. The Lee boolit often requires a somewhat deeper seating to function reliably as you are finding out.

You are learning that your pistol is the final judge of the correct loaded overall cartridge length, more so than a go or no go gauge.



- Bullwolf

w0fms
02-05-2014, 04:35 PM
When I started to load 9mm, I noticed that using book OAL's would occasionally give me high pressure signs in one of my guns.. going to plunk test minus 0.001" or so fixed that issue. I have started to work up from max OAL that will chamber in all of my guns for every caliber now, and notice that the accuracy is a lot better and I've never seen "pressure signs". The odd thing is that I was nowhere near max.

My comment on 9mm.. and many more experienced might just say "newbie".. is that.. it's... well.. touchy compared to other calibers and when you see grains of powder vs. case size, etc.. that 9mm is .. a little more delicate than most other calibers.. the sizing OAL to the chamber in my experience (limited compared to many here).. seems to make the process that much more easy and scientific..

Your mileage might vary here... I also tend to use "fast" powders like W231 and Bullseye and I've been considering trying other types for my powder coated 9mm's once things warm up...

OBXPilgrim
02-05-2014, 08:00 PM
Pulled my loading data notebook out to have a look. Lee 120gr TC is the only 9mm I could get to shoot accurately in a Glock 26. OAL was 1.055"

flashhole
02-05-2014, 08:21 PM
In my opinion, reloading manuals are good for a baseline, but my ammo hardly ever meets the OAL specs. I ran into similar problems using the Lee 175TC mold for 40sw. I ended up seating my boolit deeper and the issues stopped. I'm not saying disregard the reloading manual, but I starting learning the most when I start venturing into he unknowns

Same issue, same bullet, same fix on my 40 S&W. The slight (~.012") protrusion of the shoulder above the case was causing feed problems. Seating it a bit deeper so the shoulder was flush to the case having only the cone above the case rim eliminated the problem.

jacobslagle018
02-06-2014, 09:04 PM
I went to shoot a mag of these today. Im glad to report all appendages are still here. These were actually super accurate loads. I didnt think to keep the target but I will post one next time I shoot. Thanks agani for all of the help!

sirAIG
02-07-2014, 12:23 AM
I'm glad everything worked well for you! Did you say at the minimum load data for that boolit?

garym1a2
02-07-2014, 09:32 AM
I use 1.06 for this one also as longer does not work in some of my barrels.

jacobslagle018
02-07-2014, 03:47 PM
I ended up going to 1.045 for my oal. Any longer didnt want to fit. I used 5.1 grains of longshot for the powder. This is an amazing load for me. Couldnt have done it without the help from everyone here!

Mbedwell1971
02-07-2014, 07:35 PM
I am using that same mold and that is how deep I am seating mine. I have no problem with that depth in either of my Springfield 9mm(XD and XDs). Accuracy is still great for me at that depth.