Ligher .223 bullets, when to use shorter jackets?

[wonderwolf]

I've made thousands of my 61gr .223 bullets for .223 Rem but I have now a 1:12 twist barrel (Handi rifle) as well as some contender barrels (hornet) that need lighter bullets. AT what weight do you start to trim jackets down? methods of trimming? Lathe is too much work and wear, might make an adapter for my RCBS trim pro....I'm thinking 35gr-50gr bullets here, I've never played with super fast light stuff before and this Handi rifle is screaming to be fast and wild....since it keyholes my 61gr bullets at least.

[303british.com]

Bullet that are 50 gr. or less is what I have trimmed for. In my case, I have a jacket trim die, and make a lot of 43 gr. bullets. I trim them to about 0.500 inches (approx. 6.0 - 6.5 gr).

This is a 49 gr. bullet. The line indicates where the lead is.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/50swithline.jpg

[Alex_4x4]

J4 .22 cal, .600", 46,5 gr.

95501

Shortened reduced cases Lapua .22lr; product type FMJ 46 gr.

95502

[bullet maker 57]

You could use 22 shorts for lighter bullets. No trimming involved. If I remember correctly, one of our members makes light bullet with shorts.

[Prospector Howard]

wonderwolf, I'm surprised you're getting keyholing on 61 gr bullets in your handi rifle with a 1-12 twist. One of my .223's is an older M77 Ruger and it has a 1-12 twist, and I've been shooting 67 gr home swaged brass jacket bullets with no problem. I wonder what the reason could be for the keyholing. It shoot shoot them fine.

[303british.com]

You could use 22 shorts for lighter bullets. No trimming involved. If I remember correctly, one of our members makes light bullet with shorts.

That's great if you can get 22 short cases. Usually, unless you make your own empties, there aren't enough around. That's why myself and others use jacket trim dies. The bullet on the left was a 22LR, but trimmed to make a 43 gr. bullet.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/43grhornet4_zpse6a8e610.jpg

[wonderwolf]

I have searched....and searched....AND searched for mass quantities of .22 short brass....I've had a "wanted" sign on my table for that purpose for the last 2 years at the gun show I set up at. Have not been able to find ANY...not even somebody who would sell me spent cases. So trimming is the best and seemingly only option. I'm wondering about these harbor freight saws guys are using for .300 whisper etc....I can make a jig block up for .22LR...so long as the cases dont collapse it should work.

[supe47]

I trim after core seating. I have a power adapter coming this week to speed things up.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79138&d=1376453865 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79137&d=1376453864http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79136&d=1376453864

[wonderwolf]

Thats a good idea supe47 , Thats along the lines of what I was thinking but I like the addition of the clamp device! Is the .45ACP case special in any way? did you modify it? And doing that post core seating makes sense probably more uniform and structurally sound I suppose since mose of the draw processes are finished.

My trim pro will need a adapter but I think something like you show here made to fit one of the shell holders could be conjured up fairly easily!

[supe47]

This process is not for the production minded. The clamping devise is just a piece of scrap PVC with a hole and slot. I'm sure a better bullet holding devise could be fabricated. 45ACP is just that, a deprimmed 45ACP case set in a collet backwards, so to speak. It's just a way of holding the closed end of the jacket/core in line with the cutter to keep the cut jacket mouth perpendicular to the center line of the bullet. This set-up does not care if you're trimming for a 30 grain or a 50 grain bullet. The pilot determines the amount of exposed jacket. Once you decide how much lead you want in your point, it will give you the same amount of exposed jacket no matter what the weight. Keep in mind core weight consistency is necessary for consistent tips. Variances of core weights will give you different finished tips no matter how or when you trim your jackets. In my humble opinion, core uniformity is one of the vital keys in consistent finished bullets. The smaller the meplat and more lead in tip, the more the need for consistent cores.. Food for thought.

[DukeInFlorida]

The best method for shortening .22 LR brass (since most of us would have a hard time finding enough 22 shorts to make a difference) is using a pinch point die. The Pinch die has been discussed many times, and I recall that Corbin even sells one for the purpose.

The bottom die is a straight walled hole. The top punch is a tapered cone. The brass gets caught between the edge of the straight walled hole and the taper of the punch, and pinched into two pieces. I might have the orientation of the two parts of the pinch set mixed (top and bottom). The warning that comes with the set of tools is that if you CRASH the two tools together, you will damage both parts. Set up is tricky.

Some additional info here:
http://www.bulletswage.com/pret1.htm

and here:
http://www.bulletswage.com/et-1.htm

The ET2 is what I refer to............... (at the bottom of the ET1 page.)

[fredj338]

I think I would try a lighter core first, that is easier than cutting brass. A 40gr core should give you close to a 50gr bullet with large cav in the nose.

[Lizard333]

I think I would try a lighter core first, that is easier than cutting brass. A 40gr core should give you close to a 50gr bullet with large cav in the nose.

This is true. Problem is the large cavity in the nose area can lead to problems. Bullet stability becomes an issue.

I use RCE's pinch trim die to trim 22LR cases. Duke has the description basically right, except you need to be able to strip the cut jackets off of your die. He uses a plate over the die to automatically strip the excess jackets off the die. I'll take a pick when I get back home if I can remember.

[wonderwolf]

That would be great lizard333, and yes I agree a lighter bullet in the same jacket might cause a balance issue and turn a bullet into a shuttlecock possibly??? well that is it would try to fly *** end first I think.

I'll make some shorter jackets the slow way first and see if its worth it. I have a .22 hornet as well to feed and like I think i said before I've never played with light and fast(er) bullets so I'm sure once I start making them I'll be hooked with how flat the ballistics program is saying they'll shoot. Popping a chuck with one would make my day for sure

[xman777]

Well, if you wanted to go down the rabbit hole I did, you could learn a little about what not to do with regards to 209 primers. I am making 30 grain projos from 209's. Some are steel jackets some are copper. My gun doesn't mind either way.

I have a 209 derim setup
243-224 draw die
New core swage die because I bought the wrong draw die. The result was a jacket that wouldn't fit a standard 224 core.
New core seat punch (same as above)
4s ogive point former.

In order to make these, I essentially had to build a whole new 224 die set. If I'd have done it right, I'd have bought corbins "industrial" jacket draw die which does not sacrifice inner diameter and I'd have been able to form most any bullet with the same core swage and core seat dies.

The 4s ogive is way more forgiving with short bullets or long bullets but the 6s is great for stock length stuff.

If you'd like to consider going down this road, talk to me on PM before you start buying stuff. I can save you some headaches.

[wonderwolf]

Well, if you wanted to go down the rabbit hole I did, you could learn a little about what not to do with regards to 209 primers. I am making 30 grain projos from 209's. Some are steel jackets some are copper. My gun doesn't mind either way.

I have a 209 derim setup
243-224 draw die
New core swage die because I bought the wrong draw die. The result was a jacket that wouldn't fit a standard 224 core.
New core seat punch (same as above)
4s ogive point former.

In order to make these, I essentially had to build a whole new 224 die set. If I'd have done it right, I'd have bought corbins "industrial" jacket draw die which does not sacrifice inner diameter and I'd have been able to form most any bullet with the same core swage and core seat dies.

The 4s ogive is way more forgiving with short bullets or long bullets but the 6s is great for stock length stuff.

If you'd like to consider going down this road, talk to me on PM before you start buying stuff. I can save you some headaches.

Thanks for the offer, I don't think I'll have to buy anything.... although I wouldn't mind a 4s ogive .224 point form die at some point in time.

I have everything on hand to knock out a trimmer set up like supe47 shows above, I spent a long time last summer racking my brain about ways to trim my jackets quickly and I just try any of them, One other way I have thought about is the mini chop saw guys are using from harbor freight to cut their .300 blackout brass. I can easily make an adjustable jig in my shop but would need to make it eject the jacket or something after it cuts. shouldn't be hard to figure out.

[Gunnut 45/454]

Yep agree for light 40-45 gr bullets - 22 shorts. I have someone shooting them pretty regular around my parts - found about 100 cases here last week! So any time I'm out shooting I'm looking for them. If I have too I'll trim 22 LRs down but that would be a PITA!:grin:

[wonderwolf]

I broke down and got one of those little saws everybody is using for making .300 whisper and blackout brass with. I'll be in the shop tomorrow morning making an adjustable jig I designed over the last 2 days for .224 jackets should work pretty well.

As a side note that 2" chop saw from Harbor Freight was not easy to find, Had to go to 3 stores to find one, Lady at store #2 said they had them at the wharehouse but were not shipping any more to stores, she said that usually happens just before they discontinue a item so if you're on the fence about getting one of these saws don't wait much longer. $34 (cheaper if you get their coupons) is hard to beat...I tested this bugger out tonight and ...WOW is all I have to say.

[Bills Shed]

Here is a jig I made to shorten the 22LR cases. It works a treat. Length is very repeatable. I did have to shim the main hinge as there was a bit of play in it. Ejection is facilitated by pushing the pin on the right across to the left when the pin is pulled back to the right the cut case falls off the pin. The case is held in place just by finger pressure and this pressure also stops the case from spinning. Takes about 5 seconds to insert cut and eject. I did fit a 190 tooth jewellers blade and the cut case is burr free. The Phillips head screw on the left is to make fine adjustments to case lengths during setup.96036

[wonderwolf]

Made a few lighter projectiles last night and got out today to try them, book says they were going 3700-4100 (I made 35gr and 32gr bullets) kind of forgot to factor in the weight of the trimmed jacket when I made the cores. They shot much better out of my handi. The quick jig I made "worked" but I need to make a trim jig now for production runs.

Many thanks on the help and ideas....we're going good now here. Just need to find a 4s Swage die I think for these lighter ones and some plastic tips.

[Gunnut 45/454]

I finally got out to shoot some of my 45grs from 22 shorts in my 1-9" twist AR - to be honest they shot like ****- sure hope my Savage shoots them alot better.:(

[wonderwolf]

I finally got out to shoot some of my 45grs from 22 shorts in my 1-9" twist AR - to be honest they shot like ****- sure hope my Savage shoots them alot better.:(

What do you consider ****? and what ogive did you use?

[fredj338]

This is true. Problem is the large cavity in the nose area can lead to problems. Bullet stability becomes an issue.

.


Next time I set up I am going to give a 50gr bullet a try in std length 22lr jacket. Many match bullets have a hollow nose portion. The issue I could see is the core moving forward, 'squirting" as it is traveling up the bore with no support at the nose of the bullet, but we'll see.

[wonderwolf]

Next time I set up I am going to give a 50gr bullet a try in std length 22lr jacket. Many match bullets have a hollow nose portion. The issue I could see is the core moving forward, 'squirting" as it is traveling up the bore with no support at the nose of the bullet, but we'll see.

You would have a hard time fitting a sewing needle in the open nose part of some of those bullets. I havn't been able to get a .22 case closed up that much. I don't think the core would "squirt" from the jacket at all, the biggest problem is flight where balance may become a issue. I'm not saying it will I'm just saying it could. Its just talk until somebody tries it and shows it can be done.

[Gunnut 45/454]

wonderwolf
Like only 3-out 10 hitting the tatget at 100 yards! They were not going to fast either averaged just 2730 fps . Maybe they were going to slow?

[wonderwolf]

wonderwolf
Like only 3-out 10 hitting the tatget at 100 yards! They were not going to fast either averaged just 2730 fps . Maybe they were going to slow?

out of a .223? Push them faster....much faster

[fredj338]

You would have a hard time fitting a sewing needle in the open nose part of some of those bullets. I havn't been able to get a .22 case closed up that much. I don't think the core would "squirt" from the jacket at all, the biggest problem is flight where balance may become a issue. I'm not saying it will I'm just saying it could. Its just talk until somebody tries it and shows it can be done.
Maybe I'll try for a 52-53gr bullet. It will still have an open nose, maybe needle point, we'll see. Right now I am having good results with 56-57gr bullets.

[BT Sniper]

I'm not sure a 52 grain bullet is worth changing from the 56 grain when using the 22lr for jackets. It is more challenging to get the bullet to form without blemishes with an open tip compared to the fully filled jacket and nose of the 56 grain.

BT

[wonderwolf]

Now I really need to learn to make measured ogives on my lathe......I'm thinking 2s or 4s....leaning towards 2s since the jacket is so much shorter..... Probably stick with .40" jacket

[Utah Shooter]

Next time I set up I am going to give a 50gr bullet a try in std length 22lr jacket. Many match bullets have a hollow nose portion. The issue I could see is the core moving forward, 'squirting" as it is traveling up the bore with no support at the nose of the bullet, but we'll see.
I could be wrong but I do not think the bore is tight enough. A really simple way should be to push a bullet through your bore as though you are lapping it. What do you think?


I'm not sure a 52 grain bullet is worth changing from the 56 grain when using the 22lr for jackets. It is more challenging to get the bullet to form without blemishes with an open tip compared to the fully filled jacket and nose of the 56 grain.

BT

Have you ever heard of the column bullet? Here is a good read for you guys. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/02/bergers-new-6mm-column-bullet-for-short-range-benchrest/

[BT Sniper]

interesting read.... balance bullet by adjusting amount/height of lead in the jacket. I believe it. In my trials with the 22lr jacket though I found it a lot easier to get blemished bullets from the thin jacket when making open tips. Not impossible to get perfect open tip light weight bullets with the 22lr jacket just takes a bit of practice I suppose.

BT

[wonderwolf]

Was thinking about this project again tonight, have not done much more with the lighter bullets as I sold the 1:12 twist barrel as a friend wanted it more than I did. Have since picked up another .22 hornet and thinking really hard about making a 2s or 4s swage die for them. I moved away from my source of .22 cases over the summer....but managed to grab a 5 gallon bucket of them before I departed. I should be set for awhile :)

I've designed 3 trim jigs so far but havn't been happy with any of them yet.....I'm still torn on trimmer before derim or after. The one trim jig I've designed has the potential to produce very repeatable (its adjustable) jackets for various weights and is designed for trimming after core seating.

[tiger762]

How about make up some cores out of tin? The density is a lot less than lead, so with a jacket suitable for heavier lead you could end up with a light tin core bullet. The Mohs hardness of lead and tin is the same at 1.5 so shouldn't be any more difficult to swage the cores.

(the sound of everyones' calculators being whipped out, hehehehe)

Yes, I know tin is $20 a pound and so a 35 grain core (to make a 45 grain .224) would cost $0.10/ea. Shrugs. As my grandma would say "If you want to dance you gotta pay the band!

[Bills Shed]

Been in the shed again and have been working on a easier way to shorten 22rf jackets. I have been cutting 22rf jackets to length with a small cut off saw and then trimming them using a modified case trimmer to trim to length. The cutting to length is easy but the trimming was not as accurate as it could be.
I came up with this trimming rig. The business part is a Forster collet projectile puller turned upside down and used to secure the soon to be trimmed jacket. The body of the projectile puller was shortened a bit to expose the collet so that the cutter was not to close. A spacer was turned to fit inside the collet so that the jacket did not fall straight through the collet.
The whole set up is held on the stand of my pedestal drill by a long bolt. The collet release is activated by it own lever. Being made so big, it is very stable, and the drill press is very rigid. All in all it produces very repeatable results to within .001". It's also pretty fast. Being so rigid and strong has shown that I do not really need to cut the case before trimming. It will trim a full length derimmed case down to .450" (for a 40grain 1E open tip) in less than 5 seconds which includes inserting and removing the jacket.143710143711
Bill

[xman777]

Looks like a pillbox from WWII.
Lol Theres even a gun barrel hanging outta there.

[clodhopper]

That is real nice, does the jig pivot on the long bolt to make changing the changing the case safe?


Or is the end mill retracted enough by the quill to get your hand in there?

[Bills Shed]

That is real nice, does the jig pivot on the long bolt to make changing the changing the case safe? Or is the end mill retracted enough by the quill to get your hand in there?You are right. The end mill moves well out of the way and it is safe to remove the jacket. I am thinking of fitting an ejection pin underneath that will push up the case out of the collet. That will speed up the process a little more.Bill

[clodhopper]

I had the same thought about ejecting with the case stop. But then got to worrying about chips messing with length, concentricity and such.
Then you could use air, but how you going to catch your part?

[wonderwolf]

I had the same thought about ejecting with the case stop. But then got to worrying about chips messing with length, concentricity and such.
Then you could use air, but how you going to catch your part?

Have a small 90° pvc elbow you place over the hole, hit the air & part shoots into box tipped a bit to the side?

[clodhopper]

And the lever that starts the air, toggles the elbow into place.

[Bills Shed]

All these ideas and so little spare time. One of the good things about Swaging, is that there is no end to the toys that you can build. Keep the ideas coming. Now I am tinkering with combining two ideas of cutting down .22lr jackets (after they have been derimmed and drawn down to .177) and then trimmed to length, all in one process.

Bill