Cat Sneeze .308 out of a Win 88

[Higbean]

Hey guys. I'm starting to play around with sub loads out of my Win 88 chambered for .308win. I'm starting to think about casting but I'm on the fence a little. I already have way too many hobbies and not enough time for them. I was thinking I'd just buy some cast bullets to play with at first. I've got Trail Boss, Unique and Blue Dot on hand and I've been playing with Trail Boss loads and jacketed bullets. Just a little too loud and I'm quite nervous about sticking one in the bore of this sentimental rifle.

Can you guys recommend some cast bullets for sub loads and tell me where to buy them? I'm thinking I'd like 180-200 gr but I'm not 100% the 1-12 bbl will stabilize them.

Thanks,

Higgins

[trixter]

I cast 150 gr RFN boolits for my 30-06, and my 300 Savage (bolt Remington) and they shoot very well, I use 12 gr of Unique and am very accurate at 100 yards, for hunting I may use 170 gr, not sure yet. The 300 Savage round is very close to the 308, in fact I have used 308 cases to make 300 Savage cases.

[WilliamDahl]

The .308 case capacity is between the .30-30 and the .30-06.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3030w170_dat.htm
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3006s170_dat.htm

[Outpost75]

Important thing is that you want a lead bullet which is THROAT size, not to barrel groove diameter.

For a "store bought" bullet for your "cat sneeze" loads in .308 Win. buy something .311" diameter and around 150 grains.
like this one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046196014/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-30-caliber-311-diameter-154-grain-lead-flat-point?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Load with 5-6 grains of any fast-burning pistol or shotgun powder you have around, Bullseye, Red Dot, 700-X, W231, Unique, PB will all work.

It is VERY important to inside deburr cases well do that you don't damage the bullet base or shave any lead in seating.
I recommend that you get one of these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/342199/lyman-chamfer-tool-vld-very-low-drag

You will also need to flare the case mouths slightly to eliminate any risk of shaving lead when seating the bullet. Standard dies size the case more than needed, so you must flare the case, as in loading handgun rounds, enough that you can hand-start the bullet with your fingers partway up the base band. While you "might" get away without the VLD chamfer tool, if you deburr with a standard one, you can't do without either a Lyman "M" die or the equivalent from RCBS, etc.:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/129697/lyman-neck-expander-m-die-30-caliber-long

Happy plinking!

[Higbean]

Thanks guys.

Can anyone recommend a 180-200 gr .311 cast bullet?

[WilliamDahl]

Thanks guys.

Can anyone recommend a 180-200 gr .311 cast bullet?

For that diameter, you might need to go with a bullet for the 7.62x39 or .303 British and resize then down slightly. Both of those in the Lee offerings are .312" diameter.

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/rifle-bullet-molds/bullet-mold-double-cavity

If you want a really light bullet in that diameter for some cheap shooting, look at the ones for the .32 caliber handguns.

http://leeprecision.com/6-cavity-311-93-1r.html

[Outpost75]

....sub loads out of my Win 88 chambered for .308win.....I was thinking I'd just buy some cast bullets to play with at first. I've got Trail Boss, Unique and Blue Dot on hand and I've been playing with Trail Boss loads and jacketed bullets. Just a little too loud and I'm quite nervous about sticking one in the bore of this sentimental rifle....Can you guys recommend some cast bullets for sub loads and tell me where to buy them? I'm thinking I'd like 180-200 gr but I'm not 100% the 1-12 bbl will stabilize them.

A 12" twist is not going to do very well with bullets heavier than 180-grains in the subsonic, Cat Sneeze role.
The 154-grain Hunter's Supply LFN is well suited for this type of load. My earlier reply has a link for information and suggestions fr load data, etc.

[Digital Dan]

Higbean, I'm puzzled about why you are looking at heavy bullets for a "cat sneeze" load. Don't add up in my noggin. Light bullet, small charge, you might get somewhere with that. Recall shooting round balls from a .44 rifle once over a charge of about 1.5 grains of Bullseye. Sounded a bit like a hog fart as I recall, not a cat sneeze. Neighbors never knew it happened.

I paper patched them, but you could probably accomplish the same with a bit of Vaseline and beeswax on the ball.

[PhantomF4E]

I have been using the Lyman 311291 170gn mold in my 30-06 . That bullet has been loaded into a 30-30 and my bro-in-laws .308 I use the magic formula of 12 gns of Unique and seat to .030 off the grooves . I have a tight bore in my '06 so I don't need a monster .310/11. That light load dropped two florida whitetails d-r-t with a heart lung shot and believe it or not shot right through . Even when running the '06 at 30-30 velocity . It hits like a flipping brick and the exit wound was nasty , so my lead recipe expanded well even though I thought they were on the hard side after i water dropped them . Don't expect much more than 100-150 yds though if you use this . They fall off fast .

[Larry Gibson]

A 12" twist .308W will fully stabilize a 1.192" long 311299 of 210 gr down to less than 500 fps. However I do not recommend that bullet for use in the short magazine length of the M88 rifle. I would suggest the 311041 or the Lee 170 FN if small game or pests are on the menu. I not then any similar RN bullet will do as well. Cast them very, very soft (40-1 or 30-1 alloy works fine), TL in LLA and size at .311 for the .308W. You may or may not use a GC. I'd start with 3 gr of Bullseye and work up to 6.5 gr. I'd also use well fire formed cases. If testing at 50 yards expect to use a bit of elevation to be on target. If testing at 100 yards expect to use a lot of elevation. Make sure the bullet left the muzzle if no hole appears on the target. Very good accuracy can be had down around 500 - 600 fps if the rifle has the elevation adjustment for zero.

"Cat's sneeze" loads traditionally use pistol weight bullets and very small doses of fast pistol powders for minimal velocity. Any 88 - 120 gr PB soft cast bullet will work quite well. I favor the Lee TL314-90-SWC lightly TL'd with LLA and sized .311. Over 3.2 gr Bullseye which runs them at about 850 fps and excellent accuracy. Other light weight .30/.31 cal pistol bullets do as well.

Larry Gibson

[Higbean]

Higbean, I'm puzzled about why you are looking at heavy bullets for a "cat sneeze" load. Don't add up in my noggin. Light bullet, small charge, you might get somewhere with that. Recall shooting round balls from a .44 rifle once over a charge of about 1.5 grains of Bullseye. Sounded a bit like a hog fart as I recall, not a cat sneeze. Neighbors never knew it happened.

I paper patched them, but you could probably accomplish the same with a bit of Vaseline and beeswax on the ball.

I want maximum energy at minimal velocities.

[Higbean]

A 12" twist .308W will fully stabilize a 1.192" long 311299 of 210 gr down to less than 500 fps. However I do not recommend that bullet for use in the short magazine length of the M88 rifle. I would suggest the 311041 or the Lee 170 FN if small game or pests are on the menu. I not then any similar RN bullet will do as well. Cast them very, very soft (40-1 or 30-1 alloy works fine), TL in LLA and size at .311 for the .308W. You may or may not use a GC. I'd start with 3 gr of Bullseye and work up to 6.5 gr. I'd also use well fire formed cases. If testing at 50 yards expect to use a bit of elevation to be on target. If testing at 100 yards expect to use a lot of elevation. Make sure the bullet left the muzzle if no hole appears on the target. Very good accuracy can be had down around 500 - 600 fps if the rifle has the elevation adjustment for zero.

"Cat's sneeze" loads traditionally use pistol weight bullets and very small doses of fast pistol powders for minimal velocity. Any 88 - 120 gr PB soft cast bullet will work quite well. I favor the Lee TL314-90-SWC lightly TL'd with LLA and sized .311. Over 3.2 gr Bullseye which runs them at about 850 fps and excellent accuracy. Other light weight .30/.31 cal pistol bullets do as well.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry. I've been thinking the heavier bullets would stabilize because they can be so short in a cast flat nose bullet. And we all know it's length that matters. Haha

[WilliamDahl]

I want maximum energy at minimal velocities.

Since kinetic energy is directly proportional to the mass of the projectile and proportional to the square of the velocity, you're kind of fighting a losing battle there is you want to get the same energy out of a projectile by going heavy. Halfing the velocity would mean that you would need to quadruple the mass in order to maintain the same kinetic energy. Recoil is not related to related to kinetic energy, but rather is related to momentum (max * velocity). Momentum is conserved, kinetic energy is not. For firearms though, that is a bit overly simplistic since you have to also factor in the mass of the powder and gases expelled and their velocity.

Are you looking for a hunting load and if so, what is the intended game?
Or are you perhaps looking for a subsonic load that can be used with a suppressor?

[Higbean]

I'm trying to find a hunting load that will work for up to deer size game that I don't need ear plugs for. I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear. I don't want to sight in for two loads so i figured a heavy, subsonic load might fit the bill. Am I on the wrong path?

[WilliamDahl]

I'm trying to find a hunting load that will work for up to deer size game that I don't need ear plugs for. I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear. I don't want to sight in for two loads so i figured a heavy, subsonic load might fit the bill. Am I on the wrong path?

Even with a subsonic load, you should probably wear ear protection. The electronic muffs work pretty good with respect to attenuating the noise of the gunshots while also allowing voice and other sounds around you to come through. Some will even amplify the surrounding sounds if you so desire while also attenuating the higher decibel sounds. In my younger days, I never wore ear protection when hunting or at the range. That might have something to do with the fact that my hearing is not that great these days. Regardless, I still claim that I'm only deaf to frequencies around the sound of my wife's voice.

Of course, there's also the issue if you are shooting a semi-auto of whether the particular load will cycle the action.

Depending upon the age of your granddaughters, you want them to be able to plink with a very light load -- one that might not be appropriate for deer. It's still probably good practice to get them in the habit of wearing hearing protection though.

[Hurricane]

If you want a 180 to 200 grain bullet try the RCBS 30-180-FN. It will drop from the mold about 193 grains and with lube and gas check will be near 200. It is extremely accurate in my 308 at about 1700 fps.

[Digital Dan]

I'm trying to find a hunting load that will work for up to deer size game that I don't need ear plugs for. I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear. I don't want to sight in for two loads so i figured a heavy, subsonic load might fit the bill. Am I on the wrong path?

Couple of things for you to consider on this, maybe a couple of couples.

By conventional standards today most folks dismiss cast bullets on belief they don't have enough energy to kill cleanly. Such beliefs are intuitive but misguided and testimony to the point is posted here daily. Another small log on that fire if I may?

I am a volunteer to the state for a hog eradication program and work about 1200 acres on an island on the Gulf coast. Been at it since 2007 and have removed over 100 hogs ranging from 30-250#. Due to residential proximity I am restricted to rimfire weapons. A small number have been taken with the .22 LR and WMR. Over 90 have fallen to CB Shorts and of that number one required two shots. One taken with LR ammo required two shots.

Points to consider in this quest of yours is whether you are willing to demand precision from yourself and grand kids or do you wish to rely on energy even though it is largely meaningless.

Ponder this briefly, I have to end this for the moment but will return with a few more comments soon. I think what you're looking for is doable but a gear shift or two might be in order.

Dan

[Hurricane]

If you want a 180 to 200 grain bullet try the RCBS 30-180-FN. It will drop from the mold about 193 grains and with lube and gas check will be near 200. It is extremely accurate in my 308 at about 1700 fps.


I'm trying to find a hunting load that will work for up to deer size game that I don't need ear plugs for. I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear. I don't want to sight in for two loads so i figured a heavy, subsonic load might fit the bill. Am I on the wrong path?

You are on the wrong path about ear protection. Even a 22 will damage hearing with regular use. Get the most comfortable ear protection you can find. The girls need it and they will be more likely to wear it if you wear it also.

[Digital Dan]

To continue, the goals you pursue are straightforward. Low noise and lethality. The first is a matter of expansion ratios and the second one of precision placement.

First: you do not need a heavy bullet or hard alloy. CB shorts have the poorest metrics of any commercially available ammo I am aware of in terms of alloy (soft), velocity (700 fps) and energy (30 something FPE). Yet they will penetrate the neck of smaller hogs to include the spine on broadside shots. Hit the spine and they fold on the spot.

The forehead bone on a hog's skull is not thick. A CB short will penetrate that, and the brain and exit into the neck muscle 100% of the time, in part because the bullet does not expand or deform significantly.

My point here is that sometimes less is more. Likewise, in another time I owned 100 acres in middle Georgia that was overrun with hogs. In 2 years I killed over 70 hogs there w/ 20 ga. #3 buckshot. Lacking a major bone strike the shot would exit offside and on 3 occasions I killed 3 hogs stone dead with a single shot.

Second: if one is inclined to follow this path they need to do two things. 1) develop a load that is very consistant and very accurate. They need to understand the anatomy if their quarry thoroughly and 2), putting yourself in a position to capitalize on those advantages with certain precision 100% of the time.

I've not shot but a single hig since 2007 that was more than 20 yards distant and most were closer to 10 yards. I still hunt very heavy cover and have passed on as many shots as I've taken. I don't wear earplugs...and I can put 5 shots in 1/2" at 50 yards with my chosen rifle.

That is my experience and thoughts to large degree. My suggestion to you would be a bullet in the 150 grain range of fairly soft alloy and a target velocity of 800-900 fps.

[Higbean]

Thanks guys for your help and concern for my daughters hearing. We shoot CB caps and CCI Quiet .22 without hearing protection all the time. These are the decibel levels I'm aiming for. Anything louder gets the ears. Common sense really.

Dan, I think I will take your advice and try a 150 gr of the softest alloy I can. Know anyone selling any?

[Blackwater]

Digital Dan speaks great Truth! These techniques aren't considered "sporting" in our modern world, but .... guess what .... they're True nevertheless. Ain't it funny how that works?

[Digital Dan]

Higbean, the RF CB bullets are BHN 8 as far as I can determine and that can be equaled with a lead/tin alloy. Off the top of my head I would suggest something in the range of 20:1 to 30:1 alloy. I also think you would do ok with a lead/COWW leaning 80/20 give or take, but that's a guess on my part. Pure lead or alloys can be purchased from many sources. I get most of my pure lead and tin from John Walters in Oklahoma, or scrounging. Rotometals is another good choice.

[Larry Gibson]

Higbean

There is a difference between a "good cast bullet" and a "good cast bullet that fits the cartridge and rifle magazine".

The 30-180-FN is a good bullet. However with the M88 in .308W you have two problems using that bullet; a short case neck and a short magazine that will allow a COL of 2.815". Those along with a probable short throat means seating that bullet very deeply into the case will put the GC and bottom part of the bullet deep into the case. Cast of a soft alloy the base of the bullet inside the case would probably be riveted and gas cut.....not good for accuracy.

I suggest, again, either the Lyman 311041 or the Lee 309-170-FN. Either of those cast of 40-1 or 30-1 alloy, TL'd in LLA and GC'd and sized in a .311 push through sizer will do very, very well at 800 - 1200 fps over Bullseye powder. They will fit the case and magazine much better. I recommend those because I have been there and done that with such 12" twist .308Ws with the short magazines.

Agree with Dan about such a cast bullet killing deer much better, especially if you also HP either the Lyman or the Lee with the 1/8" Forster HP tool. Loaded to 1000 - 1200 fps either will be comparable to a 38 SPL +P to 357 magnum midrange load in effectiveness. As also mentioned ear protection is still advised, at least for practice shooting. Lots of muzzle blast difference between the miniscule amount of powder in the sub .22s vs even the 5 - 7 gr Bullseye that will be needed for the load you want.

Larry Gibson

[Digital Dan]

I like the model 88, kilt my first deer with one. That said it would be a great thing if a rifle with a cartridge with somewhat less case capacity and case/chamber geometry more amenable to this project were available. Maybe a Handi Rifle in .357?

Another stray thought might have me try this with a mould for a 110-130 gr carbine bullet, RN profile if available.

Just thinking out loud.

[WilliamDahl]

Thanks guys for your help and concern for my daughters hearing. We shoot CB caps and CCI Quiet .22 without hearing protection all the time. These are the decibel levels I'm aiming for. Anything louder gets the ears. Common sense really.

Dan, I think I will take your advice and try a 150 gr of the softest alloy I can. Know anyone selling any?

I think that to get anything as quiet as the .22s that you are shooting, you're going to need to go with a subsonic round and it might very well be a bit anemic for deer. There is a 230 gr bullet for the .300 AAC that could work in the .308, but I'm not sure about the optimal twist rate that it needs nor the twist rate that your barrel has.

According to SilencerTest.com (http://www.silencertests.com/results.htm), the .308 subsonic will generate about 157.3 dB unsuppressed and around 121-137 dB with the suppressors that they tested. With standard ammo, the .308 produces about 169 dB.

You might want to read up on Noise Induced Hearing Loss (NIHL) (http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/noise-induced-hearing-loss).

[Higbean]

Jeez. Come off it already.

[Nrut]

I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are jumping through a bunch of hoops so your daughters can shoot with out hearing protection?
That is about as dumb as it gets..
Use ear plugs..

[WilliamDahl]

Jeez. Come off it already.

Since for some reason, this installation of vBulletin is not giving the users the option to view threaded comments, so we only see them in linear mode, you might want to consider quoting whomever you are replying to so that everyone will know the context of your reply.

[Digital Dan]

I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are jumping through a bunch of hoops so your daughters can shoot with out hearing protection?
That is about as dumb as it gets..
Use ear plugs..

I don't think he said no protection, just the large variety.

[Digital Dan]

Mr. Dahl,

My opinion only, but the response seemed reasonable to me, even if a bit pointed. The gentleman is not shopping cans for this endeavor. I found that clear from the beginning...and I'm slow on the uptake now and then. Lacking sound measuring equipment the reference to decibel values is of questionable value as well. The objective is low muzzle report and functional application of such loads for hunting.

FWIW, I have no objection to using any particular style or weight of bullet in this quest, but I do question the worth of a 230 grain bullet for this. It isn't necessary.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN3588_zps1d908df8.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN3588_zps1d908df8.jpg.html)

[WilliamDahl]

Mr. Dahl,

My opinion only, but the response seemed reasonable to me, even if a bit pointed. The gentleman is not shopping cans for this endeavor. I found that clear from the beginning...and I'm slow on the uptake now and then. Lacking sound measuring equipment the reference to decibel values is of questionable value as well. The objective is low muzzle report and functional application of such loads for hunting.

FWIW, I have no objection to using any particular style or weight of bullet in this quest, but I do question the worth of a 230 grain bullet for this. It isn't necessary.


Well, it's difficult to find any references on sound of firearms on the 'net without it also being in relation to suppressors. The main thing to take out of the page that I listed though is that even with a subsonic load, the sound is well above what you should be exposing your ears to. For that matter, even with a suppressor, it seems that it is still more than you should be subjecting your ears to without protection. Now, having said that, many of us have spent a lot of time on gun ranges or hunting without hearing protection. Whether this is the cause for our hearing loss or not might be debatable.

Personally, I find that the foam ear plugs are a lot more comfortable than the ear muff type of hearing protection, but I have been in situations where I required BOTH.

There is a sound meter app for certain Android phones that allows you to measure the sound level in an environment. I've used it outside my garage to see what sort of sound levels were produced when I test fired (inside the garage) various cartridges that I had reloaded.

[Digital Dan]

Personally, I find that the foam ear plugs are a lot more comfortable than the ear muff type of hearing protection, but I have been in situations where I required BOTH.

Haven't we all?! My career paths and chosen lifestyles have been hard on my ears. Guns and aircraft played strongly, sometimes at the same time. They don't make ear protection that will preserve your hearing when the muzzle of a minigun is a scant 4' from your face....to the side, not in front. 12 brazillion Dba give or take is my guess.

That said, most times loud noises manifest as pain for me these days. I don't enjoy it in the least. Whether or not it is a good thing to do, I whack pigs w/o benefit of hearing protection whilst popping away with the Contender above. I do know there is a difference between perceived sound and actual decibels, but at the end of the day my perceptions govern what I will expose my ears to. Apparently, there is unity in my perceptions and that of the hogs as I had the occasion to shoot 5 one day without taking a step. Trees are a wonderful thing to hide behind and I'm opportunistic enough to take advantage of the confusion on the other end. It was a barr and a sow of about 200# and three smaller ones of about 65#. It was sufficient for me to fully embrace the value of precise placement over horsepower.

It was also enough to cure me of doing that again as it is an awful lot of pork to haul out of the woods.

I will say however that what I do with hogs is not always applicable to deer in a broadly specific way. They are different creatures with different habits and characteristics. Deer are far more mobile with their heads and necks than hogs, thus more difficult targets if CNS shots are the objective. Nonetheless, if one knows the animal and their idiosyncrasies it can be done. I won't belabor the earlier comments made about terminal performance but would like to reemphasize that reliance on FPE as a metric of evaluation is misguided if CNS shots are the order of the day, and I'm unaware of any animal species in North America that has not fallen to a .22 RF. By extension, a bullet with equal accuracy and greater sectional density is capable of the same feat. Do I recommend it? No. It is not my job to evaluate another person's abilities in this context, it is their job, albeit a simple one. If a target is 2" in diameter and one can place a bullet in that circle at "X" yards with monotonous reliability, they are good to go in my opinion. It matters not if the distance is 10 yards or 50. Prairie dog shooters know this to be true.

Having mentioned earlier the issue of expansion ratios, I would like to revisit that briefly. For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the definition, it is, in very simplistic terms, the ratio of bore volume divided by case volume. That is not a precise definition, but it will suffice for this discussion. Bottleneck cartridges of a given caliber will have a lower ER than the same caliber with a straight wall case. Lower ERs are generally louder than high ER values. A gross comparison would be the 7mm STW which might have an ER of 9 versus a .22 LR which can be in the range of 35 depending on barrel length. In other words, a long barrel and small case MIGHT be quieter than the short barreled gun with a large case capacity. The fly in the ointment is the pressure generated by the charge and more significantly, the exit pressure of the gas at the muzzle. An ER of 10 with a peak pressure of 60KPSI will provide a muzzle exit pressure around 6KPSI and it will likely be a supersonic gas jet, which increases perceived blast. An ER of 20 with a peak pressure of 10KPSI is a different horse entirely, having an exit pressure of about 500 PSI and possibly a subsonic jet velocity. Thus pressure levels reasonably associated with cast bullets with very small charges of powder trend to subdued reports. Just how subdued they are is a question answered largely by the considerations just discussed.

I mentioned previously the sound of my .44 mag round ball loads as being very quiet. I did a similar thing with some 300 grain paper patched loads at about 550-600 fps and can assure you they do not require hearing protection. I would not hunt with them, but they were very quiet. I would hunt with the roundball loads however and would not hesitate to do the same with them that I do with the CB shorts. They grouped about 2" at 50 yards for a string of 5 shots. The conicals did not fare so well, but that was a sample of one load series fired one time.

End of babble.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

[WilliamDahl]

I mentioned previously the sound of my .44 mag round ball loads as being very quiet. I did a similar thing with some 300 grain paper patched loads at about 550-600 fps and can assure you they do not require hearing protection.

I haven't tried it in a .44, but I've tried it with a .357 handgun and I've managed to get rounds that seemed to me to be noticeably quieter than a .22LR handgun. Barrel length on both calibers was pretty close to the same -- the .22 might have had a slightly longer barrel, come to think of it. If I remember correctly, the .357 was achieving around 350-400 fps. Great little plinker round for introducing someone to shooting and plenty powerful for yard pests (armadillos, 'possums, squirrels, etc).

[Higbean]

I haven't tried it in a .44, but I've tried it with a .357 handgun and I've managed to get rounds that seemed to me to be noticeably quieter than a .22LR handgun. Barrel length on both calibers was pretty close to the same -- the .22 might have had a slightly longer barrel, come to think of it. If I remember correctly, the .357 was achieving around 350-400 fps. Great little plinker round for introducing someone to shooting and plenty powerful for yard pests (armadillos, 'possums, squirrels, etc).

So here is the deal as I see it.

You haven't shot any CB caps or reduced loads in a long barreled bolt/pump/lever/single shot rifle. You are trying to help me out (I think?) but have gotten hung up on the presumed fact that, I, a new poster, would be so stupid as to subject my (beautiful) daughters to harmful decibel levels. You then give the appearance of helping but take a nice little pot shot at the end of your post which results in my somewhat pointed reply. Which in return gets Nrut to pull out his insult with two periods at the end of every sentence..


Here is how I was hoping you'd see it.

This new guy wants to get his beautiful young daughters shooting low recoil, quiet cast bullet loads and wants my help. I should share my experiences with him so he can make a better decision with which bullet to purchase/cast. I don't know how quiet they will be and I will tell him that because I'm a straight shooter.


Now, I'm not the best at writing out exactly what I mean. Getting piled on because I (apparently) don't care about my daughters hearing by a bunch of strangers who (apparently) do, is nothing but an insult and makes this community look pretty lame to a new guy.

With that in mind, here is what I should have said (apparently)

Hey guys. Can anyone recommend a good cast bullet that will feed in a Winchester 88?



Now, can we just get over the whole earplug thing, be friends and talk about bullets?

[WilliamDahl]

So here is the deal as I see it.

You haven't shot any CB caps or reduced loads in a long barreled bolt/pump/lever/single shot rifle. You are trying to help me out (I think?) but have gotten hung up on the presumed fact that, I, a new poster, would be so stupid as to subject my (beautiful) daughters to harmful decibel levels. You then give the appearance of helping but take a nice little pot shot at the end of your post which results in my somewhat pointed reply. Which in return gets Nrut to pull out his insult with two periods at the end of every sentence..


Here is how I was hoping you'd see it.

This new guy wants to get his beautiful young daughters shooting low recoil, quiet cast bullet loads and wants my help. I should share my experiences with him so he can make a better decision with which bullet to purchase/cast. I don't know how quiet they will be and I will tell him that because I'm a straight shooter.


Now, I'm not the best at writing out exactly what I mean. Getting piled on because I (apparently) don't care about my daughters hearing by a bunch of strangers who (apparently) do, is nothing but an insult and makes this community look pretty lame to a new guy.

With that in mind, here is what I should have said (apparently)

Hey guys. Can anyone recommend a good cast bullet that will feed in a Winchester 88?

Now, can we just get over the whole earplug thing, be friends and talk about bullets?

You just have to love it when a new guy comes on board, asks for help, we try to help him, and then rejects our answers with an attitude because they don't fit his preconceived notions.

Sorry Higbean, but sometimes there are no easy answers. 1+ 1 = 2 no matter how much you want it to be 3. I think that everyone here (myself included) has truly tried to help you. If we misunderstood you, then it is because you did not make yourself clear and give enough detail in your original post.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. If you are wanting "cat sneeze" sound out of a .308 AND you want it to be deadly for deer, you have a set of mutually exclusive requirements except in pretty close to point blank range. We have given you powder weights for very low powered subsonic loads and we have given you the sound levels that are generated. I have even pointed out that hearing experts consider even these reduced noise levels to be higher than is acceptable to prevent hearing loss. If you choose to ignore these suggestions, then that is up to you, but you have been given the information and how you act upon it is your responsibility.

Do you have an Android phone? If so, download the sound meter app and try it out with whatever .22 load that you think is quiet enough for no hearing protection.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kr.sira.sound&hl=en

Then try it with your .308 with some of the subsonic reduced loads that were previously mentioned. See if you can get it down to the same level. If you do, then check the muzzle velocity and see if that gives you enough kinetic energy for a clean kill. Personally, I'm too old and lazy to be following a blood trail on a deer for half mile through brush, so I prefer something that stops 'em quicker.

[jaysouth]

These bullets aren't as soft as most of us would like, but Penn Bullets is a very fine company to do business with and makes an exceptional product.

Your first order should be sized .311. Call and work out a sample size order so you aren't stuck with a lot bullets if they don't work out for you.

http://pennbullets.com/30/30-caliber.html

Scroll down on the LEFT side of the screen to 150 gr. RNFP.

[375RUGER]

I thought lead hunting ammo was a no-no in CA.
Anyway, heavy 303 boolits here, you can specify the size .311-.314
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/303_British_Rifle.html
other 308 boolits .308-.311 here
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/308_Rifle.html

[Higbean]

These bullets aren't as soft as most of us would like, but Penn Bullets is a very fine company to do business with and makes an exceptional product.

Your first order should be sized .311. Call and work out a sample size order so you aren't stuck with a lot bullets if they don't work out for you.

http://pennbullets.com/30/30-caliber.html


Jaysouth,

THANK YOU!!! Seriously. THANK YOU!!!

And thank you to trixter, Outpost75, Digital Dan, PhantomF4E, Larry Gibson and .375Ruger.

Higgins

[Higbean]

I thought lead hunting ammo was a no-no in CA.
Anyway, heavy 303 boolits here, you can specify the size .311-.314
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/303_British_Rifle.html
other 308 boolits .308-.311 here
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/308_Rifle.html

A lot harder to get in trouble if they don't hear you.





Relax Francis (Dahl). I'm joking. :)

[cheetah]

95705Hunters Supply .311/193gr 6.0 Trail Boss might come out in the 800s - seek professional guidance for a max.

[Doc Highwall]

Higbean, at one time I had done a lot of research about using suppressors and was amazed that the lowly 22 lr has 140 decibel's of sound. The fact that the noise is of such short duration leads one to believe that it is not that loud, but in fact it is and is above the threshold of causing hearing damage.
Please consider wearing hearing protection or at least check out the provided link about dangerous decibels.

[Higbean]

Holy ****

[Anonym]

Have you considered hearing protection? :wink:

I'm headed down a similar path casting and loading for the .308 for the first time. This thread has answered a few of my questions and am looking forward to getting an appropriate sizer/top punch and working up a good load. I'm not necessarily looking for a popcorn fart round, but great stuff from the members here. Even though the whole hearing protection thing has been beaten with the dead horse, this has got to be one of the most knowledgeable group of folks with regards to the lead boolit. :drinks: