Please help identify Lee Enfields.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have a mint No 4, which is marked = No4Mk1 (F) FTR. It has the non adjustable double peep battle sight fitted. It is roughly finished and had a lot of chatter marks, etc, but is as new condition.

My mate is also trying to sell me some No4s which are ex target club guns. They also have the FTR mark. One is a Longbranch which has been fitted with a match Bbl without bayonet lugs. The other has bayonet lugs and was used to win a Queen's shoot many years ago by a local identity, who is in his 80s and still fullbore (Palma style) target shooting.

Lastly, I have an absolutely smick ShtMLE, yes, that's how it is marked. It has a 1907 date stamp, complete with volley sights and cut off plate and windage rear sights. It even has a piling swivel. The thing that confuses me is the fact that it has a big crown with the letters ER (as in Elizabeth Regis) stamped underneath. Lizzie took up the throne in 1951 or there abouts. Maybe it was refurbished, but it must have been for presentation as the original features were retained. We were about to convert to the SLR (FNFAL) in the 50s. so it is confusing. It also has a new loking Bbl with very shallow grooves, unlike any other 303 that I have ever seen.

Help! mick.

[Mel-4857]

Hi Mick, The Longbranch were made in Canada. Their fit and finish has always been good even in the War years. They made No.4's into the early 50's until we adoted the FNC1.When bedded properly as I imagine these are they are real good shooters. Mel

[BruceB]

Mick;

The first #4 you mentioned is most likely a Fazakerly-built rifle (English), indicated by the "(F)" mark. "FTR" is also a Brit term which stands for "Factory Thorough Repair", which means it has been basically rebuilt with all needed repairs and replacements carried out. The wartime Faz rifles were VERY roughly finished on the outside, where it didn't matter. Inside, they're fine. My mid-'50s brand-new Fazakerly #4 Mk2 is a beautiful rifle in all respects.

The ShtMLE mark is standard, meaning "Short, Magazine Lee Enfield". My Dad's father carried one just like it from 1915-18 in France, once he'd ditched the Ross his unit was issued (48th Highlanders of Canada).

The ER marks are a bit of a puzzle, because of the date conflicts you mentioned. ER are the initials for "Elizabeth Regina", or Queen Elizabeth, just as you said.

I was in the Canadian Army during the transition from the #4 to the C1 (FAL) rifle. Canada was the first country to actually place the new FN design into mass production, after a tortuous re-design process to convert the plans to inch-based measurement from metric. My first C1 (not C1A1, which came along a short time later) was #0L1xxx (can't remember the whole number) but this placed it in the first 2000 rifles made. My #4 Enfield issued in 1958 was #85L7408....anybody seen it?

Finding it would be a REAL coincidence, but consider the fellow a year or two back who ordered an M1 Garand from the CMP....under the buttplate, he found the note he'd personally put there on the banks of the Yalu River between North Korea and China in 1952 or thereabouts!!!!! So...watch out for Long Branch 85L7408.

I know you Aussies are upside-down, but what on Earth is a "smick" rifle???? I infer that it means really nice condition, but....?

[NVcurmudgeon]

Mick, The "ShtMLE" mark means Short, Magazine Lee Enfield. I believe this was the last model before the No. 1 Mark III of World War I fame. "ER" has to refer to Edward VII, and the 1907 date was in his reign.

The No. 4 (F) means Fazakerly. Mine is marked "ROF (F)" for Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerly. You probably know that FTR means Factory Through Repair, or as we would say in the States, rebuilt. The two-range rear sight is very common on No. 4 rifles. The milled ladder sight is interchangeable and a very worthwhile improvement. My Fazakerly has a perfect .303 X .314 barrel
for cast and is very accurate.

I hesitated to reply to a shooter from a Lee Enfield country, please excuse if I have given you information you already know. I don't know a lot about LE rifles, except that I really like them!

[KCSO]

Mick
The ER has me stumped. I will have to check my books and see what I can find out. Other wise Bruce has pretty much filled in the gaps. You might check the Lee Enfield Collectors site.

Bruce
Does it ever bother you when they say, "You carried WHAT in the military.
I recently had an officer ask me whatkind of gun I was carrying, as he had never seen a revolver. "Yea, like they carried those in the old days, right", me and Wyatt both had one.

[9.3X62AL]

KCSO--

I'm glad I'm not the only one who heard that sort of drivel about my wheelgun at work. KIDS.........

I have grown quite fond of the No.1 Mk III I was given by a friend [BSA 1918]. I haven't paid much attention to its ordnance or depot marks, I should take it out and look it over more closely. Its first work with real boolits wasn't too great, but with the MM Fat Thirty 190 it behaves itself pretty well.

[StarMetal]

From what I found that ER may be a proofing mark. Here's an excerpt of what I found: English proofs are present on the left side of the back of the barrel: "Crown over BP" (Birmingham Definite Barrel Passing Proof); "Crown over BV" (Birmingham Barrel Inspection after Proof); "Crown over NP" (Birmingham Nitro Proof).

Joe

[NVcurmudgeon]

C'mon guys! Read my previous post on this thread. ER on a 1907 rifle has to mean Edward Rex, the King from 1901-1910.

[BruceB]

Yeppers...I keep fergittin' about ol' King Eddie. Compared to Victoria, he was pretty small spuds and infinitely forgettable.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Mick;

The first #4 you mentioned is most likely a Fazakerly-built rifle (English), indicated by the "(F)" mark. "FTR" is also a Brit term which stands for "Factory Thorough Repair", which means it has been basically rebuilt with all needed repairs and replacements carried out. The wartime Faz rifles were VERY roughly finished on the outside, where it didn't matter. Inside, they're fine. My mid-'50s brand-new Fazakerly #4 Mk2 is a beautiful rifle in all respects.

The ShtMLE mark is standard, meaning "Short, Magazine Lee Enfield". My Dad's father carried one just like it from 1915-18 in France, once he'd ditched the Ross his unit was issued (48th Highlanders of Canada).

The ER marks are a bit of a puzzle, because of the date conflicts you mentioned. ER are the initials for "Elizabeth Regina", or Queen Elizabeth, just as you said.

I was in the Canadian Army during the transition from the #4 to the C1 (FAL) rifle. Canada was the first country to actually place the new FN design into mass production, after a tortuous re-design process to convert the plans to inch-based measurement from metric. My first C1 (not C1A1, which came along a short time later) was #0L1xxx (can't remember the whole number) but this placed it in the first 2000 rifles made. My #4 Enfield issued in 1958 was #85L7408....anybody seen it?

Finding it would be a REAL coincidence, but consider the fellow a year or two back who ordered an M1 Garand from the CMP....under the buttplate, he found the note he'd personally put there on the banks of the Yalu River between North Korea and China in 1952 or thereabouts!!!!! So...watch out for Long Branch 85L7408.

I know you Aussies are upside-down, but what on Earth is a "smick" rifle???? I infer that it means really nice condition, but....?

Smick means absolutely grouse, the bees knees, terrific.

One of the rifles that my mate tried to sell me, had 'Regulated by Fulton' on the reciever ring from memory. I might be wrong about the name.

[Sailman]

BruceB

With much interest I read your comments about your grandfather carring a Ross 303 in WW 1 when he was in the 48 Highlanders. My father and 4 of his brothers were in the 48 Highlanders in WW 1. If the 48 Highlanders were from Toronto than I am correct in saying dad was in the 48th.

My father told me that they had so many problems with the Ross rifle that they would go on Moon Beam Requisitions. By that he ment that they would wait untill 2 or 3 AM and go down the line to find some British soldier asleep and they would take his Enfield and leave their Ross. To say the least this resulted in some problems. This all came to an end when the British issued the Canadians Enfields. I suspect when your grandfather said he ditched his Ross he probably was on a Moon Beam Requisition.

I have a Ross 303 and consider it to be a very fine target rifle. I have shot it in military matches and have done well. On the other hand, it would be the last rifle I would want to carry into combat. My comments about the Ross also carry to the Swiss K-1.

To say the least, I have fond memorys of the M-1 I trained on during the Korean War. I consider the M-1 the finest combat rifle ever made. On the other hand, I consider the British SMLE No 1 or 4 the finest bolt action combat rifle ever made.


Sailman