Puzzled .223 grouping 10" at 25 yds.!

[Captain Capsize]

So, I have cast about 200 .225 44 grain boolits from my Lyman mold and shot about 50 of them today. I loaded them with 6,7,and 8 grains of Unique and about 10 with 6 grains of 231. I was shooting them out of my Savage model 24 o/u. Velocity between 1650 and 2050 fps from a 1:14 twist. I was expecting to be in the area of minute of squirrel at 75 yds. So I started shooting at 50 yds. I was getting quite a spread and complete misses so I moved target in to 25 yds. I am stunned at the lack of any grouping what so ever. I am getting a spread of about 10 inches at 25 yds! How can this be? The bullets are beautiful, hand selected, weighed to +- .2 gr., measured at .225" and concentric. They are gas check bullets but I am using them without checks. The Pb is melted down commercial .45 acp bullets with about 5 % tin. The ammo was carefully loaded and checked. The scope was checked for tightness. The rifle shoots 1/2" groups at 75 yds. with Winchester 55 gr. varmint loads. The barrel was thoroughly cleaned. The bullets are seated so they just touch the rifling. The bullet base is about even with the bottom of the case neck. Used Alox lube. Can't figure what I may have overlooked. I think I could have shot better groups if I had loaded my cases with kidney beans! Ideas anyone?

[243winxb]

a 1:14 twist to slow? My guess

[Ben]

They are gas check bullets but I am using them without checks.

There is your problem !

Gas check them and repeat things. I'm betting you'll see a big difference.

[L Ross]

When ever I have something like that happen I go bigger in diameter. I would also try putting checks on those bullets.

Duke

[243winxb]

My Lyman #45 lists a 1-12 twist. Bullet alloy is harder then yours, using a gas check. They list 7.5gr Unique at 2169 fps as maximum. Starting load 5.5gr. I would add some linotype to get some antimony in the alloy. The most accurate load was with IMR 4227 powder. Staring at 11gr to 14 max.

[Pilgrim]

Try a different lube as well, but after you do the other things 1st. Only change one thing at a time and it will shake out. If I had to guess priority 1 would be to put gc's on the boolits; 2nd would be to go .001 larger if you can; and finally try a better high speed lube.

[osteodoc08]

Put the check on and up your speed. Sounds like you need a bit more velocity to stabilize them as well.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-stability/

Also look up greenhill formula

[JeffinNZ]

They are gas check bullets but I am using them without checks.

There is your problem !

Gas check them and repeat things. I'm betting you'll see a big difference.

Yeap, you are asking FAR too much of those bullets. Slap a gas check on them.

[Iowa Fox]

Sometimes throats are cut for J bullets. They will not shoot cast well until you give them just a little more lead. Not saying this is the case here. I'm going to assume this is the 225438 Lyman which the older ones dropped around 227 ish. I would try checks, size to 226, a good lube and look at some of Beagles old articles. Alox will kind of get you by sometimes but not on a unchecked gas check bullet at your velocities. Keep experimenting and let us know what you find.

[williamwaco]

Ben and Jeff + 1

You say Alox lube. That could mean anything. If you mean Lyman 50/50 Alox/Beeswax, you should be ok.
If you are using liquid alox I don't think you can push it that fast.

I have pushed it ( liquid alox ) from 1800 to 2000 fps with no leading AND no accuracy.
( I haven't given up on it but I have not succeded getting accuracy above about 1600 fps)

[btroj]

They are gas check bullets but I am using them without checks.

There is your problem !

Gas check them and repeat things. I'm betting you'll see a big difference.

Yep.

Pushing a 22 to 1600 plus with no check just isn't gonna work. Using a check design with no check isn't making it any better.

[waksupi]

The problems have been stated. I was shooting at over 2600 fps with the .223, grouping around 1 5/8" at 100 yards. I don't recall what mold I was using.

[Larry Gibson]

+ another for putting GCs on. Other wise drop the load with 231 down to 2.5 gr and work up to 1100 fps or so w/o GCs. Should find some MOA squirrel accuracy for out to 75 yard shooting in there. Other wise put GCs on them as previously mentioned by all.

The Savage 24s did have 14" twists and make very fine cast bullet shooters. Mine runs 1 1/2 moa with cast bullets. The 225462 gets pushed to 2600 fps with very good accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Don't be afraid of speed with cast, might be hard on the tree rats but that only means head shots.
Leaving the check off has shortened the drive length, I had boolits turn full sideways trying that when I ran out of checks.

[Captain Capsize]

Thank-you gents for the advice. i just order gc's few minutes ago. Also will try lighter load. I am looking for less speed anyhow. Want to kill squirrels without blowing them up. My .22 magnum is pretty rough on them requiring head shots only. If I didn't do the shooting myself I wouldn't have believed the spread on those rounds. Funny none of them keyholed. All I can think of is the base must have been getting hammered just enough to change their shape. I think I should heat treat and water drop the remaining boolits. BTW, the Alox I was referring to was Lee liquid Alox.

[243winxb]

The Pb is melted down commercial .45 acp bullets with about 5 % tin. To heat treat, antimony is needed in the alloy, about 2% or more. May take a week or so to fully harden. Tin, not so much.

[dudel]

Bullet base is critical. Put on the checks.

[grouch]

The only time I've seen spectacular inaccuracy like that was 50+ years ago casting some kind of babbitt that we could only assume separated out dissimilar metals when it hardened and caused a "beach ball effect" when spun by the rifling. If your problem isn't solved by less speed and/or gas checks maybe this is the problem.
Grouch

[mpmarty]

IMHO gas checks are a large waste of time and money. I shoot 30cal to 458 without checks or filler and my accuracy is as good or better than jacketed. I drive my cast at close to factory speeds without any leading or other problems. I use white label lubes as well as Lee liquid aalox. I find no difference in performance with the different lubes.

[35remington]

I have yet to have a plainbase bullet shoot well at high speed......that is, over 1800 fps and often less than that by a noticeable amount. The gascheck, IME, is not a waste of time and money, but rather essential to higher speed results. The vast majority of cast bullet users have found the same thing and I doubt the OP will find he is an exception to this.

The "naked" plainbase bullet just doesn't hold up as well as a gascheck design when speeds are high. If gaschecks were a waste of time and money they would have never been invented, and they wouldn't be popular.

[Iowa Fox]

+ another for putting GCs on. Other wise drop the load with 231 down to 2.5 gr and work up to 1100 fps or so w/o GCs. Should find some MOA squirrel accuracy for out to 75 yard shooting in there. Other wise put GCs on them as previously mentioned by all.

The Savage 24s did have 14" twists and make very fine cast bullet shooters. Mine runs 1 1/2 moa with cast bullets. The 225462 gets pushed to 2600 fps with very good accuracy.

Larry Gibson

Larry, Do you like the 225462 ? :kidding

[Larry Gibson]

I like what works:-D

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

I like what works:-D

Larry Gibson

That is how it should always be.

[popper]

You talking 45 core or cast lead? Core is probably pretty soft. Way too much tin. Size, HT and drop down a few hundred fops & try again.

[wmitty]

Since no one else has mentioned it, I will... paper patch 'em! (or maybe go nuts tryin' to!)

[Captain Capsize]

I may have found part or all of my lack of grouping problem. Yesterday while running a patch through my barrel i found a very rough spot several inches from the chamber throat. I ended up scrubbing, wire brushing, using vinegar/h2o2 and hours of elbow grease to remove the accumulation of lead. After getting the lead out I still have a rough section of the bore about 3-4". I can't see it but I can feel it when I push a patch through. I have no clue as to why the barrel is rough. Perhaps a previous owner got something stuck and damaged the barrel trying to remove it. I am thinking if I shoot any more lead bullets I am going to end up with a heavy lead buildup again.

So now the question is ... what do I do about it. I think I'll post this in the gun smithing section.

[Ben]

I might be wrong in this, but here is my view on your current situation.

The massive amounts of lead in your bore were directly related to the shooting of the bullets that had no gas check on them. Once leading began, it continued to get worse and worse, layer after layer of lead being deposited in the barrel. Your 2,000 fps load with the plain based bullet was an invitation for the severe leading that you are trying to remove right now from your barrel.

Evidence of all this is the time and sweat you've invested in trying to get your bore clean again. This roughness you feel ( but can't see ) is still lead fouling in the bore.

The Solution to the Problem.

Take a .22 cal Phosphorus Bronze bristle brush and wrap strands of Chore Boy Copper Cleaning Pad ( found in the dish washing detergent section at dept. stores like Wal - Mart ) around the brush. This will act much like the popular " Lewis Lead Remover " that was popular with revolver shooters in the 60's and 70's. Removes lead quickly but does not harm a barrel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/cb.jpg

Take a small magnet with you when you go to the store to buy the copper pads. If you see copper colored cleaning pads, test them with your magnet, if the magnet is attracted to the pad, DO NOT buy it, as it is steel with a copper coating.( These are usually generic brands made in China )

You want the pure copper type , they won't attract a magnet because they are made from pure copper and will easily remove the leading but the copper is still soft enough to do zero harm to the interior of your barrel.

A few strands of this wrapped tightly around your bristle brush will remove the lead fouling in quick order without harming your barrel.

Once the bore is clean and smooth, you can start the testing process again.

Ben

[xacex]

Since no one else has mentioned it, I will... paper patch 'em! (or maybe go nuts tryin' to!)

NOw thats just wrong.[smilie=1:


I might be wrong in this, but here is my view on your current situation.

The massive amounts of lead in your bore were directly related to the shooting of the bullets that had no gas check on them. Once leading began, it continued to get worse and worse, layer after layer of lead being deposited in the barrel. Your 2,000 fps load with the plain based bullet was an invitation for the severe leading that you are trying to remove right now from your barrel.

Evidence of all this is the time and sweat you've invested in trying to get your bore clean again. This roughness you feel ( but can't see ) is still lead fouling in the bore.

The Solution to the Problem.

Take a .22 cal Phosphorus Bronze bristle brush and wrap strands of Chore Boy Copper Cleaning Pad ( found in the dish washing detergent section at dept. stores like Wal - Mart ) around the brush. This will act much like the popular " Lewis Lead Remover " that was popular with revolver shooters in the 60's and 70's. Removes lead quickly but does not harm a barrel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/cb.jpg

Take a small magnet with you when you go to the store to buy the copper pads. If you see copper colored cleaning pads, test them with your magnet, if the magnet is attracted to the pad, DO NOT buy it, as it is steel with a copper coating.( These are usually generic brands made in China )

You want the pure copper type , they won't attract a magnet because they are made from pure copper and will easily remove the leading but the copper is still soft enough to do zero harm to the interior of your barrel.

A few strands of this wrapped tightly around your bristle brush will remove the lead fouling in quick order without harming your barrel.

Once the bore is clean and smooth, you can start the testing process again.

Ben

May be leaded up as Ben mentioned. Don't get caught with a few boxes of Choreboys and gun. BATF now says it is intent.

[Hannibal]

NOw thats just wrong.[smilie=1:



May be leaded up as Ben mentioned. Don't get caught with a few boxes of Choreboys and gun. BATF now says it is intent.

What am I missing/unaware of ? Intent? Intent of what, exactly?

[xacex]

What am I missing/unaware of ? Intent? Intent of what, exactly?

Imagine wrapping thin onion skin paper cut for the size of a .224 for a couple of wraps, and wrapping it in a cut in a board to get it nice and tight. Not an easy task. I did about 10 to prove to myself it could be done, and my fingers were cramped. I stick with 30 cal and larger for PP, but then again I powder coat now so I don't worry about it.

As for the intent, BATF has determined that Choreboy's are a silencer part. If you have a legal silencer, or pipe that could be used to construct a silencer you could run afoul of the alphabet club.
Retarded ehh?

http://www.wnd.com/2011/11/368769/

[Hannibal]

Imagine wrapping thin onion skin paper cut for the size of a .224 for a couple of wraps, and wrapping it in a cut in a board to get it nice and tight. Not an easy task. I did about 10 to prove to myself it could be done, and my fingers were cramped. I stick with 30 cal and larger for PP, but then again I powder coat now so I don't worry about it.

Pehaps l'm being dense, but this applies to the paper patching comment, correct? I'm curious what the BATF would be concerned about here? I'm still missing something apparently . ?

[762 shooter]

NOw thats just wrong.[smilie=1:



May be leaded up as Ben mentioned. Don't get caught with a few boxes of Choreboys and gun. BATF now says it is intent.

Combine with a 16 oz water bottle, duct tape, and a bad attitude and one might possibly moderate one's noise signature. :Bright idea:

I didn't say that.


762

[xacex]

Edited above for what you were asking. Sorry, haven't finished my coffee yet.

[Hannibal]

Ah. Typical government agency worrying about what someone MIGHT do instead of paying attention to the ones whom ARE doing. I should have known. Thanks.

[Captain Capsize]

I think you might have nailed it Ben. I scrubbed for another 2-3 hours today, was using choreboy and brush also rubbing compound. I think I finally got it all. Patches finally come out clean, no more rough spot. Will not shoot unchecked lead bullets again. BTW, nice work (checked out your website).

[Ben]

Thanks for that nice comment about my Website.

I remember about 45 years ago, getting a 31141 and shooting it in my .308 Win.

I didn't even know what a gas check was........I wondered why the bullet had those empty rings around the bullet ( By the way, I didn't put anything in those empty rings prior to loading them ).

I shot them " Full Tilt " with jacketed load data.

Yes, I can fully relate to your problems you've experienced during the past few days.

Took me about 14 forevers to get all that lead out of that barrel.

Ben

[Harter66]

I too have shared the joy of bbl scrubbing . I had this 06' and a 32 Rem ............ get as much of the old fouling out as you can. I don't even like to look back on the 2 hours every night after work for a week w/rods and Hoppes, B Casey's , Kroil , Rem 40x , 0000 wool etc. I did get them both clean,and they both shot well . The S K S there is an adventure in cast boolits for me . It is controlled to a tolerable level now but it still leads just past the gas port all the way to the muzzle and even w/PP will make getting the gas piston out a challenge after 500 or so rounds.
The paper patch might be a good idea just to shoot 25-30 just to slick the bore up a little , I haven't rolled any 22s yet but "how bad can it be"?

[popper]

The Pb is melted down commercial .45 acp bullets with about 5 % tin
Keep the choreboy out, unless the 45s were hardball. 5% tin is way too much. GC don't eliminate leading.

[Pilgrim]

Ben - There was zilch for casting info 45 yrs ago. The 1st Lyman cast manual was way out of print and very uncommon. I eventually found a few pages (copies). I know cause I was there too, but at least I tried lubing 'em! I thought I knew what I was doing...hah! Since my bullets were so bad (4 cavity, 358156 w/GC) accuracy was zilch. Ruger Blackhawk, .357 mag. was the launcher. I gave up on cast and that .357 and in disgust I sold it all...mould, furnace, lube/sizer, gun, everything. Too bad too as it was a nice setup. About a decade later I tried again after lots of research... which provided roughly 50% good info, and 50% bad and no way to tell which was which! BTW - I shot a box of Win factory lead magnum loads about that same time. No way factory could lead, right? Hah! Lead was actually extended out of the muzzle by the time I figgered out things weren't right! Even factories couldn't get lead right back then for magnum revolters. It's all better now, mostly....FWIW Pilgrim

[ShooterAZ]

I tried shooting some GC design boolits with no gas check in my Mosin-Nagant. The bore looked like a smoothbore after 5 shots. I will not try that again. I don't think I ever did get all the lead out of it.

[mikeym1a]

Pehaps l'm being dense, but this applies to the paper patching comment, correct? I'm curious what the BATF would be concerned about here? I'm still missing something apparently . ?

The comment concerning 'intent' was in reference to the ChoreBoy. The copper cleaning pad is sometimes used as a baffle material in some styles of silencers. These silencers can be taken apart, cleaned, and reassembled. BATFE regards such activity as 'manufacturing', requiring their approval, and another tax stamp. The comment does not refer to the practice of wrapping cylinders of lead in paper. Hope that helps clear up some of the fog. mikey 8-)