A Trick for the .357 Rossi loading

[BCRider]

I shoot a Rossi 92 in .357 in my cowboy action events. I've been working at getting the rifle fixed up and working well for about 4 years now. And "yes" I know that I should just buy an 1873 and be done with it. But for me part of the fun is the tinkering.

Anyway each time I tinker with the insides things become a little better. But I've still be having issues with the rounds catching and needing the lever to be jiggled a little with some rounds to get them to tilt off the elevator and through the rim guides and up onto the bolt face then slide home.

Details are .357Mag casings with 130gn LRNFP bullets lightly roll crimped into the cannelure groove.

So tonight studied how the rounds feed and what is catching. I darkened a round with felt pen and loaded it then studied the scuffs on the brass and bullet. It was obvious that the round is jamming while the bullet and first portion of the casing are in the chamber but there's still a good amount of tilt. It can't run in cleanly at this point because the rim hasn't cleared the guides at that point. It's simply not possible to take a close fitting parallel sided cylinder and push it into a similar size hole at an angle. Something needs to be tapered or give to allow the needed clearance.

Sooooo...... I started pondering..... always a dangerous game that pondering stuff. I loaded up a .38Spl casing dummy with the mouth of the casing crimped into the front edge of the lube groove. This gave me a round which is about .025'ish shorter than a regular load. This new "more pointy" dummy cycled in clean as a whistle. I was getting all prepped to load up a hundred to try this coming Sunday when I stumbled across a 9mm factory taper crimp die I'd bought a while back. Hmmmmm..... more of that dangerous pondering. So I loaded up that crimp die and tried taper crimping my dummy .357 rounds. This resulted in a nicely tapered portion at the mouth instead of the bump it had from the roll crimp. Also the lead bullets tend to swell the brass and the taper crimp pushed in the forward portion of the bulge.

Loaded them up and ran them both slow and fast and they cycle through slick as a fresh fish on a wet board.

So I taper crimped a hundred to try out this Sunday. Wish me luck and I'll report back on if this is the magic moment I suspect it may be.

[winelover]

Mine feeds everything I've tried, including 158 SWC's, right out of the box. Most recently, NOE's 180 RNFP's. My issues is getting them into the magazine, with that miniscule loading gate and corresponding sharp edges.

Winelover

[bob208]

that is the one of two problems I have with mine trying to get it loaded. the other I fixed was the front sight on te barrel band. I milled a slot in the barrel and put a post in just like the Winchesters.

[BCRider]

Mine always fed everything as well. It just wouldn't feed them fast enough to use for my cowboy action shooting. I guess I'm getting to where I'm considered as "fast" and now this sort of stuff is holding me back.

So keep in mind that this is more about that last little bit of performance for speed and less about just making the gun work well for general shooting.

Winelover, I don't know how you load your rifle but a trick showed to me by the cowboy shooters is to use two hands. Load the first round but leave the head sticking out the gate slightly. Then use the next to push in the first and again hold it back with the rifle hand thumb so it's not into the gate fully. Repeat for all the rest. Only the very last one gets pushed in that last little bit to go past the front edge of the gate and let the gate snap up. If you work it that way your thumb will thank you.

[dverna]

If you squeezed the bullet down you may wind up leading (undersized bullet).

Heck shoot the .38's if they work. Brass is much cheaper too. I never ran ..357's when I was doing CAS. Used 1894 Marlins and 1873 clones and they were fast.


Don Verna

[bob208]

for what you are doing. I would try the truncated cone bullets for the 9m/m. they feed in just about anything. I used them in my ruger security-six speedloaders it made it faster to get them lined .

[donhuff]

For absolutely flawless feeding, I use 38 special cases with lyman 358311 round nose bullets. Those bullets with a big wide flat meplat, seem to cause more feeding problems in leverguns, than any other style. They also seem to be more length sensitive.

I also have used a lyman 356634 TC in 357 cases and use a 9mm taper crimp die to hold them in place (no crimp groove). These feed great and are very accurate.

I use sandpaper or a cratex wheel on the sharp edges on mine. Makes loading a non issue, except sometimes one round will go flying off behind me when I dont get it in there right and hold it in place. I too use the two handed loading method.

[wv109323]

Does anyone have trouble with the rifle flipping a live round out the top when the action is worked? In this scenario would 38 Special or .357 Brass be the best?

[donhuff]

That problem is usually caused by too much clearance between the cartridge guides. Most that have this problem solved it by shimming "in" the right cartridge guide. Usually a shim made from a beer can will do it.

Has nothing to do with the brass.

[BCRider]

Shimming the guides helps a lot. The shims let me use .38Spl cases for a while. But as I worked on slicking up the rifle and got faster I began getting a lot of the "point to the sky" jams. Switching to the .357 casings solved that issue. So I would say that it's partly the brass. Just depends on how fast you want to be able to cycle the lever.

The rifle performed VERY nicely today. But lighting conditions sucked so I had some issues with finding the front sight for the first shot or two. Once up and going I sped up and the lever cycled beautifully with the taper crimped ammo.

The issue of pinching the middle land between the cannelure and lube grooves and possible leading occurred to me as well. I just went and shone a light down the bore. There was zero leading that I could see. No signs of anything crusty in the edges of the rifling lands. A patch pushed through just came out with a touch of black on it and a few grains of powder came out with it. So it would seem that the un-squished base band was enough of a seal to let things work out well.

I'm also going to make rubbing a small stick coated with 600 grit sandpaper over the brass bead a regular part of my cleaning work to keep the brass nice and bright. If it was yellow instead of going all dark on me from oxidation I'd have had a far easier time finding that darn dot to aim with....

Anyhow, as I mentioned this may or may not apply to folks out there. But for anyone using their Rossi or other .357 chambered 92's that might be having similar sticking issues when the brass doesn't want to tilt into the chambers cleanly this may help.

Bob, I appreciate the suggestion for the truncated cone bullets. But testing with a dummy round assembled from the components I use and coated with felt pen showed that the rub points are on the crimp shoulder along the top of the round and slightly back from the crimp shoulder on the lower side. The felt pen marks on the bullet were only very lightly scuffed where the bullet first starts into the mouth. And the fairly pointy bullets I'm using are very much like a nice ogive shaped round nose but with a small flat meplate. So it's not the bullet but the cases that are the issue. And more to the point the bulge that can occur when anything other than the lightest of roll crimping is used such as I had with the Lee dies.

Don, when you say that you rounded the edges with cratex wheels are you taking about the outsides of the casing mouths?

[donhuff]

Hi BC,
No, I meant in and around the loading gate to dull the sharp edges. Sorry I wasn't very clear on my response.

And I see what your talking about with running it fast and the shimming of the guides. I guess the longer 357 cases add just the right amount of drag to keep them in place.

[robertbank]

RCBS makes a hand tool for taking the sharp edges off case mouths. To reduce further, albeit a small gain, have you considered using one to change the angle of case mouth rim. You are at a place with the 92 that I likely will never be but any additional edge might reduce times and over a long match small savings can result in the difference between winning and coming in 2nd.

Take Care

Bob

[BCRider]

Don, I've already done all that to the rifle. Between the online information and hints and suggestions from our local cowboy action gunsmith I've been into my Rossi a good half dozen times over the years working a little here and a little there. It's easier to go back in and take off a little more than it is to put it back on after all.... :D

And yeah, the shimming stuff is a big help. But the longer casings just lay in place better. In the end I feel that if there is too much play between the nose of the bullet and the bump at the rear of the carrier that the round is too free to jump upwards and poke at the sky. I even played around with putting more shims on one side than the other so as the carrier lifted the bullet that it had to hit and slightly dogleg to the side to aid in knocking the nose back and avoiding the point to the sky issue. It helped somewhat but it wasn't a cure in the end.

It's almost certainly got to do with how the cartridge is held between the rear limit bump on the carrier and how the nose fits under the edge of the magazine stop. .38 length bullets are free to fit between and rattle around. But full length .357's have to slightly nudge the cartridge stop to one side as the carrier raises them. In light of this I set the OAL to where the round just barely fits without being tight between the limit bump and the head of the next round sitting in the opening. This seems to result in the lightest feel on the lever and the optimum control over the cartridge on the carrier jumping about.

I also noted that shorter loads than this result in the nose of the bullet being driven down and impacting the flat end of the barrel just below the chamber opening. It may be that this is part of the "point to the sky" issue with shorter ammo loaded rapidly. If the nose kicks off that flat and jumps up it likely doesn't lay back down again without the lever being cycled slowly enough to give it the time it needs. Which is why the rifles are great for casual plinking but problematic for use at faster CAS speeds. With full length .357Mag load specs the bullet enters the chamber mouth that much sooner and the nose doesn't get a chance to be driven down.

Even though the taper crimp option seems to be working well for me I think I'll go ahead and load up 30 or 40 of the "long specials" that are crimped into the front of the lube groove just to try them.

Bob, I've got the case mouth tool you suggested. So far I've only used it lightly on new brass. But I'll try a slightly more aggressive outside chamfer as well. Leave no stone as they say.... :D

[robertbank]

I am not into Cowboy yet and really am to involved with IDPA to run Cowboy as well but I do love my two 92's. I avoid using 38spl cases in my Rossi only because of the chamber "ring" effect you get. For those who do, how do you remove the ring or do you worry about it.

BC Rider I like the 158 RN boolits in 357 cases for smooth loading. John R. uses the 356402 truncated cones boolits I cast sized .358 in his '73 and his two Rugers for Cowboy Action.

Take Care

Bob