Care and feeding of 54cal Flintlock...

[twoworms]

I just got a older 54cal Flintlock rifle with a 41 1/4 in long barrel. The only marks I could find are on the lock its marked D (B) on the inside of the lock. No marks on the barrel, stock are anywhere else that I could find.

Anyone have a idea how to care and feed one of these things?

Tim

P.S. Any help would be welcome as I'm new to flintlocks.

[waksupi]

Figure out what your twist is, and we will start from there.

[testhop]

Tim
i started shooting b.p with a 50 flint here is what i have learn with flint you MUST REPEAT MUST USE BLACKPOWDER NO SUBS in 54 use 2f (FF)FOR THE LOAD but you need 4f(FFFF)for priming the next thing you have to decide is round ball or maxie ball ,or one of the bullets
if you use r.b you need patchingthe thickness of patch is 10 thousands to 15 thousands
the first thing you have to get over is the flash pan what6 i did was load the pan only and fired it several times till i got used to the flashafter that it was a cake walk i just loaded it up with a mild load 60 gr 2f and a 490 thousands r.b. and touch her off right then i was hooked
blackpowder is habit froming so watch it if you fire 40 shots in a day you have put in a hard day I ALMOST FORGOT I WOULD HAVE THAT FLINT CHECK OOUT BY A GOOD BLACKPOWDER GUNSMITH TO BE ON THE SAFE SIDE any other questions e mail me

tom

[floodgate]

Tim:

To what Testhop said, I would add: DON'T fill the pan completely full with priming powder, but only just up to the middle of the touch-hole. (Hard to believe, but it takes noticeable time for the powder in a full pan to burn down to the hole.) While good flints are precious, the sawn agate ones from Thompson-Center work well enough. Clamp them in a fold of leather (or a hammered out oval of lead) and not directly in the metal jaws of the cock. Experiment as to whether bevel-up or -down gives the best spark. Etc., etc. I learned all this on my own fifty-plus years back; today, you'll get all the advice you can stand from the gang here.

I WOULD recommend - in addition to having the lock checked out - removing the barrel and checking the breech-plug for tightness and rust, running a tight shotgun swab down the barrel to check for rough spots, and maybe getting one of those little reflectors you can find at" Track of the Wolf" to drop down to the breech and use a penlight to examine the bore and rifling. In fact, get the Track of the Wolf catalog and read through it for general advice and ideas. The Dixie Gun Works catalog is another good source of info and "stuff". Best of all, find an experienced F/L-er to walk you through the whole thing - it's a very "friendly" sport!

My, how I DO run on....

floodgate

[ktw]

you'll get all the advice you can stand from the gang here.

:-D

I think Floodgate is putting too much powder in the pan. Just a dab works best for me, significantly less than 1/4 the volume of the pan. Place it on the outside edge of the pan.

I use FFFg in both the rifle and in the pan.

Success with a flintlock is all about good technique (loading, priming, orienting flint properly in jaws, knapping edge of flint, cleaning the rifle, etc). You have to take the time to get to know the rifle and how it likes to be treated.

-ktw

[twotoescharlie]

I have to agree with KTW, been shootin' black powder over 50 years.


TTC

[44man]

I agree too, never fill to the touch hole.
There is one thing that will drive a guy nuts when it is wet outside. Water will run down the barrel channel and into the back of the lock. It will soak the powder in the pan even if you keep the lock covered. I take good paste wax and wax the barrel. Then I gob a bunch into the barrel channel and seat the barrel into it. Wipe off excess and rub it into the rest of the stock. Wax is better then oil in the rain or snow.
Moisture along the barrel is the quickest way to ruin pan powder. Black powder will absorb moisture anyway but why feed it water? A good thing to do is to check the pan often and change the powder if damp. This is another bad reason to fill the pan too full because it will wick moisure into the touch hole.
You want the flash from the powder surface to enter the touch hole, not burn down to the hole first. You never want pan powder to enter the hole either. Keep the hole open. A good, tuned flinter will fire as fast as a percussion.
Buy REAL flints from Track of the Wolf! Cut stone is junk. OK if it is real cut flint, but most stone is not as hard and can't cut steel like flint. It also breaks and can't be sharpened again. When real flint breaks, it makes more sharp edges. The stone must cut steel from the frizzen, those are the sparks, not from the stone! The frizzen must be hard or the steel particles cut off will not get hot.
Once you get it working you will love it. Just accept the lost deer once in a while when it doesn't go off. Proper planning will cut those events way down though.
The flinter will make you a better shooter with any other gun. It is so good at it that I think every beginner should start with one. :drinks:

[twotoescharlie]

well said 44man

TTC

[Maven]

Not to hijack two worms' thread, but I too just purchased a used Dixie Arms Tennessee .50cal. flintlock (made in Japan possibly by Miroku) and have some questions about priming powder. I have several pounds of FFFg, but no FFFFg (My other BP rifles are caplocks.) Are you sure I can use FFFg to prime the pan?

Btw, other than a filthy bbl. (41") and dirty lock, the piece is in great shape. After an hour's scrubbing, both are clean and just about ready to use whenever the weather cooperates.

[felix]

Take it from a real BEGINNER, you NEED 4F for priming. 3F was very temperamental at best. Usually it would not go off as expected, and most especially with humidity high. ... felix

[floodgate]

Not to be contradicting Felix, but I HAVE primed quite successfully with Fg. Of course that was in my wife's original India Pattern "Brown Bess", with its humongous pan, and that was how it was supposed to be done: tear a corner off the paper cartridge, dribble a bit of the main charge into the pan, dump the rest down the barrel, wad the remaining paper around the ball and slam it home with the heavy iron ramrod. Not that I'd shoot my .40 cal. "Kaintuck" that way....

Muzzle-loaders - and especially flinters - are just like moulds: each one has its own "likes", "dislikes", and "days off" when nothing wants to work. That's a big part of their charm.

floodgate

[R.M.]

My understanding is, too much powder is the biggest culprit, not powder granulation. You want fire to hit and go through the flash hole, not a powder fuse.
Now I'm no expert, I just got my GPR, and have only taken it out a couple of times. I'm using 4F, only because I had a pound of it sitting on the shelf. Some of my buddies swear that 3F will be just as fast, if the flash hole is the right size, and not covered with powder.

Just what I've heard.
R.M.

[twotoescharlie]

make your own priming powder,use two spoons , put powder in one and use the other to grind it up real fine. also can use a mortor and pestle if you have one. been doing this for years, always worked well for myself.



TTC

[testhop]

i have been useing a man made flint called DURA FLINTS from ELKK ENTERPRISES
IT has a 5 year warranty and IF thay get dull you can resharpen them with a dimond file or a dimond stone abnd keep on shooting
i bought 20 of them some i gaved to freinds but i kept enought to last me a lifetime when i go blackpowder hunting dura flints are in my gun i just called and got some sex line so i dont know if thay are still in orapation here is the address ELKK ENTERPRISES-DURAFLINT
PO BOX51321
OXNARD CA 93031
phon#8007962762
but like i said the phone sounds like a sex line

tom

[floodgate]

twotoescharlie:

I had to do that to get the powder fine enough for the tiny pan on my 19th-Century Japanese "Tanegashima" matchlock. It worked just fine, but that combination of a pistol sized butt and a heavy 40" barrel made it very hard to handle. I always giggle at that scene in Akira Kurosawa's "Kagemusha", where the assassin props up his matchlock on a series of blocks, aimed chest high at the door his victim is to pass through that night, then touches it off after dark and nails him cold.

Hard to believe, but 17th-Century Japan had more troops bearing firearms than all of Europe; then they outlawed them and made the sword (and the Samurai) the mystical weapon of the Shogunate.

floodgate

[piwo]

Well, I pretty much agree with KTW and floodgate and I don't fill the pan either, but worrying about what certain position of the pan the powder is located in is not practicle. I hunt with mine and carry it in the woods, and you know what, the powder moves around in the pan, specifically if it isn't "full". If the geometry of the touch hole to pan is correct, it SHOULD set the charge off no matter where the powder is located in the pan so long as it's dry. And to be sure, so long as mine is not filled to the touchhole, it sets the rifle off instantly. Just click on the picture.. Amount of powder in pan was not fussed over.......
Tell me how long the delay is with this rifle (daughter on the trigger):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jsquaredjcubed/Shooting%20Pics/th_MVI_1347.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jsquaredjcubed/Shooting%20Pics/?action=view&current=MVI_1347.flv)
She says "it hurt", but that was because she crept up on the site, and an ember touched her cheek. :( she shot it again at correct stock weld and did fine..

Now the daughters boyfriend shooting (he has a touch more powder in his charge):-D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jsquaredjcubed/Shooting%20Pics/th_MVI_1346.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jsquaredjcubed/Shooting%20Pics/?action=view&current=MVI_1346.flv)

They are a hoot to shoot, and mine brings home meat every year!

[ktw]

...worrying about what certain position of the pan the powder is located in is not practicle. I hunt with mine and carry it in the woods, and you know what, the powder moves around in the pan, specifically if it isn't "full". If the geometry of the touch hole to pan is correct, it SHOULD set the charge off no matter where the powder is located in the pan so long as it's dry.

I agree with the practicality comment, but I find lock time to be a bit quicker on the range if the prime is located outboard in the pan.

As long as the pan is dry this is not difficult to maintain in the field by slightly rotating the rifle to the right (lock toward the ground) and tapping the butt or left side plate.

I have never had a problem using FFFg in the pan. I also don't think it turns to mud in the pan during wet or humid weather as fast as FFFFg does.

-ktw

[twoworms]

I have been working on the rifle, cleaning learning how to work the flint. I have FF BP and have not come up with FFFF just yet. The barrel cleaned up real nice, just a little rough where the guy had left a blank loaded in the rifle for who knows how long. I can load a patch and ball all the way down to the flash hole with ease.

I feel it should be a shooter, if I can just get out and try it.

Question, could I take some FFF and make FFFF with it. I was thinking I could rub it between to wooded blocks until it got a little finer than FFF?

Bad idea or not?

Tim

[R.M.]

Just use the 3F, it'll be fine.

[StrawHat]

Question, could I take some FFF and make FFFF with it. I was thinking I could rub it between to wooded blocks until it got a little finer than FFF?

Bad idea or not?

Tim


Sure you can grind the stuff finer.

A ceramic grinder used to be sold for the purpose.

Have you tried fffg as priming? If it works it will save you a bit of work.

As for the amount and location of the prime, I use about 1/4 of the pan and like mentioned by ktw I keep it outboard of the pan. A quick slap while shouldering it seems to do the trick.

Keeping your flint sharp and the face of the frizzen clean for each shot will also help.

Properly tuned a flint is as fast as any other ignition, and like any other ignition proper technique (breathe, squeeze, follow through, etc) all count toward accuracy.

Good luck

[piwo]

3F in the pan for me.. even tried 2f with the small bit of that I have lying about and it worked fine at the range as well. Never failed to set the main charge off, and couldn't really tell a difference...

[northmn]

Through the years I have built, shot and sold many flintlock rifles and a few fowlers. Most of the advice given is good, but depends. You fill the pan according to the touch hole location. When I built my flinters I put the bottom of the touch hole very close to the top of the pan so I could fill it for hunting and possibly have more positive ignition and did not have to worry about positioning. I made a few dollars changing the hole location on commercial rifles, one of which had the touch hole located at the bottom fo the pan. 3f or 4f for priming depends on the lock. Larger locks such as on muckets and fowlers can and did use the powder of the main charge. The paper cartridge of the military was bitten off at one end, the pan was primed then the musket loaded, (not safe don't do this now) The finer, smaller quicker locks are best with 4f. Another way to get 4-f is to screen through a colander or whatever. The morter and pestle for small amounts works also. Rough bores usually need a fouling shot and then tend to shoot ok. Use a good heavy tough patching. Most original rifles were made with twists of 1-60 or less and used lighter charges than we use today. A common practice was to put a ball in the palm of the hand and see how much powder would juct cover it. In a 54 this is about 55-60 grains. A 70 grain charge in an original, is plenty even for deer as the ball blows a pretty good sized hole and weighs about 220 grains. I have found that flintlocks seem to function best at a certain pressure level in which the touch hole gets blown clear after the shot. Too light of a powder charge for plinking sometimes causes problems too. When I load I put the touch hole pick ( piece of wire or whatever that fits in the hole to clean it out) in the touch hole and then put in the powder, seat the ball and prime. I do not know where you get your stuff but since you can use the web try Dixie Gun Works, Log Cabin or Track of the Wolf where you can get real flints much less expensive than the prepacks TC or others sell. You will find that after a bit the flint will have to be knapped. You hit the edge of it with lightly with a very small tool and flake off pieces to resharpen the flint. Lapidary cut flints often do not knap well is why you want to get the English flints. You can buy patching at a fabric store but for starters buy the commercial ones. Patching must be pure cotton or linen, no man made materials at all as it melts on the bore. A good patch when fired should look like you could almost reload it (your barrel may cause a little tearing). Another handy tool to get is a spare ramrod with extras like a ball puller in case you forget (when you forget?) to charge with powder. Sometimes you can keep working a charge through the touch hole untill you can get enough to expel the ball. This is about all I can say without seeing the rifle, good shooting have fun.

Northmn

[twoworms]

Sunday, I got to test fire the beast.

I used FFF for the main charge and FFF in the pan that I had worked on a little to make it finer. The first two shots at 20yards cut a nice 8 shaped hole in the paper, with the next shot 1/8" from the last. The next three at 20 made a nice clover leaf of about .75" ctc. I fired two shots at about 40 yards the landed about one inch from each other. The rifle shoots low right so I didn't get to hit much of anything. It didn't seem to fire very fast, as I could feel the hammer/flint fall then the main charge go off. Maybe 4F will work a little faster.

I plan to test fire it again in better light,4F for the pan and warmer weather.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Tim

P. S. I also shot my CVA 32cal, its a hoot... :)

[floodgate]

two worms:

Yer on yer way!!!

Oddly, I see more general agreement on details on this thread than on most on this Board, despite the vagaries of individual flinters and their users. I guess, after a few years of tinkering and learning "on the job", we all end up in pretty much the same place!


It's a wonderful corner of our sport / hobby; gotta get back to it!

Enjoy, experiment and share your results. And...have a Happy New Year!!!

floodgate

[twoworms]

floodgate,

They kinda get in your blood, flinters that is. I have to say when I shot it off hand at 40 yards or so, I worked at it to not pull off target as the pan fired then the main charge.

I have come up with some FFFF for the pan, I'll give it a try. northmn posted that pressure was key to keeping the flash hole clean. That got me thinking I'm going to have to so some real range testing next time out.

Got to love it,

Tim

[northmn]

As long as you use a rasonable charge in your 54 say over 50 grains, the touchhhole will remain relatively clear. Some shooters I knew liked to really cut back in charges for novelty shooting to avoid bang and recoil. One person brought an inexpensive production 45 flinter to the range and loaded it with about 25 grains of powder. The charge vented out the touchhole and the ball stayed in the barrel giving that individual an interesting but harmless experience. I got paid to put in a new liner as that gun must have had a vent larger than 3/32 inch. I think that sometimes the lower pressures lead to inconsistant burn and more fouling. Also I think humidity has something to do with it as it does affect the nature of fouling in barrels. The funny thing is that 25 grains works in a pistol. You tell me?

Northmn

[twoworms]

The flash hole on my 54cal came in at 0.0625" is that about right? Its going to warm up a bit this weekend, I may hit the range.

Tim

[northmn]

Had to do a little quick math there. .0625 is 1/16 of an inch and is standard for any of the new inserts. If you look at the newer inserts, you will see that they are counter drilled inside to a diameter of 1/8inch or so. Some have counter drilled and or put countersinks at the outer part to try to focus the flash. Also it makes for a thinner area for the flash to meet the powder in amanner of speaking. As this area is a natural pressure release I have never seen any thing go wrong with it. Many of the originals have been found with larger touch holes, which may be due to burn out, a desire for reliability, or the fact that the fire has to travel the whole length of the barrel wall. As many if not most originals were swamped barrels, this section was fairly thick. Another thing is that in comparison, a 54 will not vent out like a 45 as the touch hole diameter is smaller in relation to the bore. A Brown Bess that I had had about a 3/32 touch hole that worked well. In theory, a bigger touch hole can make a difference in velocity as more pressure vents out. Chronographs have not shown significant differences that I know of as long as things are kept reasonable. See Sam Fadala's first book on muzzleloaders. If you use a removable insert such as are popular among those that want to switch back and forth between flint and percussion, get one with an Allen head. Some of the ones with screwdriver slots seemed to "jump" the flash. This is not just my opinion but that of others that used them including one gunsmith. They often kind of countersunk or sanded the slot down to get rid of it. I used to use the ones that had a wrench adapter that one filed off once it was installed. Sorry you asked a simple question that could have been answered by saying YES and I got windy. Feels good to talk about real muzzleloaders again.

Northmn

[twoworms]

northmn,

I won't complain about getting more info. The members on site have never came up short on help regarding casting, reloading or other matters I have asked about.

There should be more good web sites like this online.

I didn't get to shoot this weekend, the temp was great but it was a little windy. I took a ride on my scooter instead, a 65 mile ride with wind in my face was worth the time lost at the range.

Tim