Any Honda auto mechanics here?

[Calamity Jake]

I drive a 2008 Ridgeline with 91,000 miles on it I have kept up the service per recamendations
It has begun to smoke upon the first cold startup of the day and again after it has been shut off
for a couple of hours.
It doesn't smoke on the first startup when the temps are below freezing.
Any of you honda mechanics have an idea as what is wrong, and a fix?

Thanks.

[Moonie]

I'm not a honda mechanic but my experiences with small block fords tells me valve seals. Could be different for a Honda however.

[pressonregardless]

What color is the smoke? Loosing any coolant?

[Calamity Jake]

Blue smoke, no coolant loss, I'm know it's oil smoke.

[jumbeaux]

Not a Honda mechanic but my experience with other makes points toward worn valve guides/seals...the oil leaks down and sits on top of the pistons and when started it "burns" off. You might also have someone follow you...let the engine come to proper operating temperature...drive up a hill and after cresting the top let off the gas...if the exhaust bleaches or smokes then guides are very suspect...good luck...

rick

[osteodoc08]

If you are truly burning oil, You need a cylinder leak down test and compression test to assess the top end.

How mcuh oil are you losing over how long of a time period? Im also a little comfused as you say it doesnt smoke below freezing but smokes on a cold start up. Im guessing that above freezing it smokes on a cold start up only or after it has been sitting a while? Is there any chance it could have been over filled recently? How does the air filter look? Is there any oil on the air filter? Does it smoke when you accelerate from a stop after warmed up? Are you sure it is bluish oil smoke and not an overly rich mixture setting from a cold start up?

A common problem with the 3.5L V6's have been the motor mounts.

[MtGun44]

Valve seals will not show up on a compression test. Seals probably getting stiff in
cold weather and don't seal properly, get a bit of oil sucked past them until they
are warmed up enough to soften and work like a seal again. Typically these
can be accessed without pulling the heads. Pull valve/cam cover and then
rocker arms and cam if OH cam, rockers if pushrod design. Then there is a
special kind of valve spring compressor the works from the top. Pop off each
valve spring, slip off the seal and replace, then replace spring, cap and cotter.
Repeat for all the valves then reassemble.

Actually, this isn't a major deal (assuming it is seals, and it does sound like it)
not worth the money, IMO. Especially if only when cold. If they are sealing
OK warm, they aren't very bad, yet.

A check is to let it idle when hot for 5 minutes then stand behind and have
someone rev it up. Leaky seals are under max stress when the manifold
vacuum is max - at idle - and if leaky, will pool a dollop of oil on the back
side of the intake valve at idle. As you rev it, the air flow goes up high
enough to sweep the oil off the intake valves and burn it, puff of blue
smoke. Severe cases will smoke at idle after a minute without revving.

Minor issue at your level, will not get better, but does no real harm unless
oil consumption is high, which I seriously doubt it is. This is typically not
even noticeable on the dipstick.

Bill

[geargnasher]

Not an issue until the cats choke to death.

What type and grade of oil are you running?

Gear

[rockrat]

Probably doesn't do it when it is cold, because the oil is thicker and has a harder time leaking past the seals , if that is what it is. In on of my old Pontiac manuals, the recommended getting up near the speed limit, say 50 in a 60, then punching the throttle to the speed limit, take your foot off the gas, slow back to 50, then floor it again. Any blue smoke says seals.
To check guides, you might be able to pull a plug ,with cylinder on top dead center, put an adapter in the plug hole and pressurize the cylinder, then pull off the valve springs to that cyl, and manually try and wobble the valve stem. Course, if this is an OHC engine, this would be tough.

[Calamity Jake]

Thanks for all the replys. This honda sets outside and if the air temp is below freezing
I don't get any smoke but after warmup and setting for an hour or so I get smoke on startup.
Specs call for a 5W-20 oil and that's what I have used in Penzoil brand.
Last oil change I went to 10W-30 it didn't help.
It only has 91,000 miles, it shouldn't be smoking like this.
The Honda dealer wants $100 to evaluate it and tell me what's wrong.

[khmer6]

Those J series motor are pretty stout. It was the transmission that always failed. SOHC J35. Do a leak down test, it's pretty easy and anyone can do it. See who can offer you the cheapest price. But with less than 100k hard to say what the issue could be

[chsparkman]

Again, valve stem seals. It does not require a dealership to replace them. Any competent mechanic can do the job in a couple of hours, maybe less.

[geargnasher]

I tend to agree that it's likely the valve stem seals....but some of the symptoms don't "pencil". If it's going to leak oil through the valve guides and puddle a little in the cylinders, it ought to do it every time it's shut down. If the oil is there, it will burn it on startup, cold or not.

Leakdown tests will tell about rings, IF you're familiar with the tool and know what to expect from it, and remember to lock down the crankshaft so the timing tensioners don't go haywire and jump a tooth or two in the event that the engine kicks backwards as a cylinder is pressurized. All that tests is the rings, anyway, and if oil consumption (having to add) isn't happening (is it?), then the rings are probably ok unless they're gummed up and stuck so that a little oil gets past on startup. A leakdown test won't test the valve stem seals themselves, that part is tough to do without taking apart the valvetrain.

I have a feeling that Pennzoil, combined with the extended drain intervals the newer Honda manuals call for (7500 miles under "normal" service with some engines) has gummed things up and possibly worn out the valve guides. I'm not a fan of Pennzoil at all, nor Quaker State. Chevron, Shell, Valvoline (or NAPA brand, which is Ashland oil, same as Valvoline and much cheaper), even Wal-Mart Super Tech oil is better than Pennzoil. I used to swear by Castrol GTX, used it in everything for many years after Valvoline became a little harder to get in this area, but lately I've been seeing sludge and varnish issues with it both in my own engines and in my customer's vehicles. I'm not promoting it any more even though I used to be a die-hard fan.

My advice is change the oil and filter, use "house brand" cheap 5W-30 conventional, and run about 10% Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase for about 500 miles, then change the oil and filter again and put good stuff back in it. While you're at it, pony up and spend the bucks on some BG Product's "44K" injector cleaner, comes in a little aluminum pull-top can and can be found at some parts houses or independent garages that feature BG maintenance chemicals. Between the injector cleaner and MMO in the oil, that ought to free up any varnish or sludge that could be coking up the rings, valve seals, or valve guides. Sometimes a little "snake oil" can really work, seen it happen many times. "Mechanic-in-a-can" won't fix worn parts or damaged seals, but in this instance a good de-gumming may be all your engine needs.

Oh, and $100 is plenty fair for a minimum diagnostic fee, so don't freak out. Most shops won't estimate less than an hour's labor at the shop rate to even take it in, and expect a call that it will cost way more than that to dig down and find the problem once they get the vehicle in. Professional technicians are trained specialists who have to run some basic diagnostic tests which take time in order to pinpoint the problem and give a reasonably accurate estimate for repairs. This also takes a lot of $$$ in tools, training, and years of experience. The days of the grease monkey are over, most successful automotive technicians have more training and specialized knowledge than your computer repairman and doctor combined. It gets my goat that a person can go the their doctor, have a few tests run, get a prescription for something and not bat an eye at spending $2k for it, but go ballistic and feel scammed if it cost them $300 for their mechanic to spend five hours wadded up in their filthy engine compartment and using $65K of his own tools plus $30-50K of the shop's diagnostic software and equipment to diagnose and repair the malfunction that caused their "check engine" light to come on. Sorry for the rant, but you own a very complex, precision machine with multiple on-board computers, data lines, and some of the most complicated and difficult to service parts on the road. It takes a lot more than a Crescent wrench, screwdriver, and a Haynes manual to fix one these days.

Gear

[btroj]

Spoken by a true car doctor.

[geargnasher]

One more thing: Change your oil every 3-5K miles. I don't care what the manual tells you or if you run synthetic. I do this for a living and trust me, very few people drive the "normal" service routine per the book. If you are OCD like you should be and go exactly by the book, change the oil and all the filters based on the "severe" maintenance schedule, and for the love of God don't buy a #&%(ing Fram oil filter or or put Pennzoil in your engine.

Mobil One is pretty tough to beat, but don't think you can get away with 10K change intervals unless you have found a way to keep combustion acids out of the crankcase. Greyhound has found a way with a specialized, continuous-filtration system that removes coolant, moisture and all contaminants, but you can't afford one.

Gear

[btroj]

That answers a question I was going to ask. The Honda dealership won't change the oil unless the car says it is needed. We will start taking it elsewhere.

[geargnasher]

That answers a question I was going to ask. The Honda dealership won't change the oil unless the car says it is needed. We will start taking it elsewhere.

Those "calculated" interval thingies are about as effective as knockdown power stats. Fine in theory, not so fine in the real world. Keep in mind that the calculations are done based on crankshaft revolutions, percentage of run time spent in different operating zones, ambient temperature, engine load, etc, and a few other theoretical guesses based on little real-world testing. What it can't predict is just exactly what is actually happening to the oil, now the particular oil and fuel present in the engine are interacting with each other, and other things that break down oil. Another thing to consider is that once the engine is out of factory warranty, it's YOUR baby and the manufacturer could care less if it poops the bed at 110K miles, in fact, they might just hope it does and you'll pay them to fix it. Most any engine, particularly today's engines regardless of brand, are designed and built very well and will stand a lot of neglect----up to around 100K miles. It's that second 100K that will prove how well you did or didn't take care of it. Like your teeth, most people's adult teeth can stand 20 years without a cleaning with very few problems related to lack of maintenance. However, gum disease will likely get you in the next 20 if you let the calculus build up in your teens and 20s, even though you had no symptoms during that time that things were going wrong in your mouth. An engine is the same way, it can purr along just fine on 10-15K oil change intervals and then one day, somewhere around seven figure on the odometer, those acid pits in the bearings, scuffed cylinders, stuck lifters, stuck rings, and worn-out timing components, oil pumps, and valve guides start to show up.

If you want to keep your car more than 100K, miles, change the oil, change it often, and use good stuff. Don't use snake oil as a matter of routine, that just mucks up good oil chemistry. Don't let the Quickie Loob place use the cheap bulk garbage, no matter what line the pimply-faced clerk feeds you about how great "their" oil is or where it comes from. Make them use name-brand oil from a sealed bottle and a quality, name-brand filter such as Wix, Purolator, Fleetguard, or the factory brand filter.

If your dealership won't take your money for an oil change when YOU say it's time, have a little chat with the service manager about how mentally retarded such a policy is for a department whose existence depends on service customers, and remind them who it is that payed tens of thousands of dollars for the vehicle.

Or, I can walk you through how to do it yourself in a jiffy and you can remove all doubt. Your owner's manual will explain how to reset the reminder light. Sometimes it's easier than dealing with a bunch of douchebags at the dealership quick lane or the Quickie Loobe joint.

gear

[btroj]

I've changed my oil, I just prefer not too. I'm a bit delicate I suppose?

I have a garage we normally use and they will do what I want. They are good people.

[geargnasher]

I pay a helper at work to change mine for the same reason: I prefer not to. I've seen the insides of a LOT of engines, many with a very well documented history, and the way the game of maximum fuel economy and lowest possible emissions is being played, there is no room for error with engine maintenance. Since our lovely EPA has mandated the reduction to near zero of all the good stuff the lubrication engineers used to put in oil and fuel to make engines live, oil weights are getting lighter and lighter to reduce parasitic drag, and tolerances are getting closer and closer to work with that light oil, there is less room for neglect without permanent damage.

Gear

[btroj]

Gear, is your inbox full?

[khmer6]

Wow that dealership is retarded. The intervals are only in ideal conditions. I haven't lived anywhere that conditions are ideal. Dust, heat, cold, so much affects the interval. There are a lot of Honda gearheads with shops. Find one that is respectable and been around for a long time, hopefully it's not a shop some kid got daddy to pay for

[DLCTEX]

I was told Hondas didn't need a mechanic.

[Calamity Jake]

Thanks for all the input gear, and others, I will try your suggestions.

I change the oil every 3K to 3.5K, have from Jan. 1966 when I started driving my own car and have always
used penzoil.
In about 1974 I had a desiel(MS) mechanic friend rebuild a 400CI Pontiac engine for me which had
penz ran it, he told me it was the cleanest engine he had ever been into so I have stuck with the penz.
I may try sonething else now.

[rockrat]

My grandfather told me he had a engine go bad, not too far out of warranty. First time he had used pennzoil. Never did again. He preferred Valvoline. I like mobil 1, shell, castrol gtx, or valvoline, depending on what vehicle it is going in and also change every 3-4K. Like geargnasher, I won't ever use a Fram filter. Cut apart many of the filter brands and it was the poorest appearing ,in quality. Even wal-mart filters were alot better. I like wix, Napa gold or the factory filters.
Lost an engine one time as I had too heavy an oil in my engine and it got really cold and took out a bearing. When the engine rebuilder opened it up, he was shocked at how clean it was, no sludge at all. The valve covers looked like they were new and just had a can of oil poured in them. 98K on the engine, castrol gtx oil. Look in your book, and see what oil is recommended. A toyota mechanic told me of problems in a few engines when 5-20 oil was used, said just use 5w-30 oil.

[khmer6]

Royal purple and Mobil 1 are great oils. I use oem filters. Hope it goes well with your car, I've been out of the Honda game for a while. 700 ponies in a civic is all I need. It sits in the garage with the other civic. Never get a chance to drive them now

[geargnasher]

One of the cleanest, high-mileage engines I've ever seen also had been run with nothing but straight 30-wt Pennzoil, changed religiously every 3K for its entire life. The straight-weight conventionals don't suffer the sludging problem that multi-grade conventionals do due to the shear-induced breakdown of the viscosity modifying polymers, but they don't hold up as well to heat or cold starts, either. This particular engine spun a rod bearing at 160k miles and you could eat off of every surface inside. All the main, rod, and cam bearings were showing copper. The way it was cared for, that engine SHOULD have easily gone 300K, and I'm sure it would have with a better oil.

CJ, try the MMO and 44K, it won't hurt anything if you don't leave the MMO in there too long and don't drag race it or tow with it. The MMO may or may not help, depending on what the problem is, but it's cheap and worth a shot. Don't waste your money on those bargain "fuel injector cleaners" you see all over the parts store, either. I've seen documented improvements from customers using the 44K, and observed the difference just that makes within a tank or two of fuel by looking at fuel trim data and oxygen sensor activity. I've also observed how well it cleans intake valve deposits on several occasions where before-and-after teardowns had to be made.

If you have gummed-up piston rings that bypass a lot of oil on a cold start, the MMO will take care of it. If you have heavy carbon deposits on your intake valves that soak up oil upon shutdown and then wring it back out into the incoming airstream upon startup, the 44K will take care of it in a couple tanks of fuel treated with it. As always, read and follow label directions!!!

Gear

[alamogunr]

I'm not a mechanic and have never played one on TV, but I use a good synthetic(Schaeffer's) and change between 8K and 10K. I've done this on two Toyota Avalons. I traded the first at 195K with no problems. The second is at 111K and I expect it to go another 40K before being replaced.

I have the used oil analyzed approx every other oil change and always get a good report. I agree that FRAM filters are junk and only use best WIX, Purolater or NAPA Gold(which is a WIX filter, I think).

I have a Toyota Tundra that I have had for 6 months and the factory recommendation is change oil every 10K or 1 year. I will probably use the 1 year interval since I don't drive 10K a year. More like 7-8K or less. I'm retired and it is my second car.

I think driving habits may contribute to engine longevity too. As an example, the 1996 Avalon had 195K and still had original brake pad life.

I'm not expert and expect several to disagree with me, but I hesitate to change what has worked for 18 years. It helps that I live in a part of the country that seldom sees temperature extremes(except this winter).

(Added Comment) I'll probably be 73 years old by the time the free dealer oil changes run out on the Tundra. Since it is much more involved to gain access to the oil drain and filter, I'll probably quit doing my own oil changes on the truck.

[Newtire]

Thanks for all the replys. This honda sets outside and if the air temp is below freezing
I don't get any smoke but after warmup and setting for an hour or so I get smoke on startup.
Specs call for a 5W-20 oil and that's what I have used in Penzoil brand.
Last oil change I went to 10W-30 it didn't help.
It only has 91,000 miles, it shouldn't be smoking like this.
The Honda dealer wants $100 to evaluate it and tell me what's wrong.
Sounds like valve guide seals. I have changed those but not on a Honda. There was a tool that allowed you to compress the retainer and,with the piston rotated up to Top Dead Center on the compression stroke, you put air into the cylinder thru an adapter that screws into where the spark plug goes (or fill the top of the cylinder with rope-never tried that though!). Worked like a champ unless you are talking of an engine where the actual guides are worn.

Don't mess with the oil specs by putting in thicker oil. That kind of stuff worked back in the day but now-a-days some of the engines are running such low oil pressure that the thicker stuff won't flow like it should. If it says 5W-30, then that's the stuff to use.

[Calamity Jake]

I drive a 2008 Ridgeline with 91,000 miles on it I have kept up the service per recamendations
It has begun to smoke upon the first cold startup of the day and again after it has been shut off
for a couple of hours.
It doesn't smoke on the first startup when the temps are below freezing.
Any of you honda mechanics have an idea as what is wrong, and a fix?

Thanks.

Took this honda to the dealer early last week, after checking it over they said it was sucking oil past
the rings on one cylinder, service rep said at 91,000 it shouldn't be doing that, he contacted the
assembly plant warranty rep. for some help they sent a new short block to replace the bad one.
Got it back yesterday. All said and done I was out $1750, that's a lot cheaper than another car.

[osteodoc08]

Took this honda to the dealer early last week, after checking it over they said it was sucking oil past
the rings on one cylinder, service rep said at 91,000 it shouldn't be doing that, he contacted the
assembly plant warranty rep. for some help they sent a new short block to replace the bad one.
Got it back yesterday. All said and done I was out $1750, that's a lot cheaper than another car.

Out of curiosity, did they mention how they diagnosed this?

[dagger dog]

Out of curiosity, did they mention how they diagnosed this?

A measured amount (pressure) of air is pumped into the cylinder with the piston on the compression stroke (TDC), if the rings are very worn allowing the pressure to drop, you can hear the air bypassing the ring and escaping into the crankcase through the engine oil cap, if its a valve, intake can be heard through the open throttle plate, exhaust through the tail pipe.

A certain amount of leak down from the pressure drop is allowed , high mileage engines will have more, it takes quite a bit of experience for the mechanic to be certain.

The engine in question has an aluminum block, so scoring of the cylinder can be a problem, that would show up as rings not sealing. It's very common on high mileage 4 cylinders that haven't had regular oil changes, the Honda V6 not so much.

[NSB]

Took this honda to the dealer early last week, after checking it over they said it was sucking oil past
the rings on one cylinder, service rep said at 91,000 it shouldn't be doing that, he contacted the
assembly plant warranty rep. for some help they sent a new short block to replace the bad one.
Got it back yesterday. All said and done I was out $1750, that's a lot cheaper than another car.

Unbelievable! 91000 miles and they're still giving you some warranty coverage. I worked as a quality engineer for 32 years for GM and five years as a quality manager for Ford/Visteon. I can assure you that neither one of those companies would have done anything to help you after your warranty expired. I'm retired now and guess what I'm driving? A Honda. I put my first set of brakes on it at 103,000 miles and it's third set of tires at 124,000 miles. Other than changing the oil, etc., I haven't spent one cent on any repairs. They have the best service in the world and I know what I'm talking about. I don't even get a discount on Honda and I get dealer cost on GM and Ford. I'm buying a new car in August. Nothing wrong with the one I have, it's running as good as the day I drove it off the lot. I'm just getting the itch for something else. It's going to be a Honda Pilot.

Don't use any other oil than what Honda recommends. Heavier oils cause problems. The new vehicles typically use very light oils for a reason.

[jcwit]

Took this honda to the dealer early last week, after checking it over they said it was sucking oil past
the rings on one cylinder, service rep said at 91,000 it shouldn't be doing that, he contacted the
assembly plant warranty rep. for some help they sent a new short block to replace the bad one.
Got it back yesterday. All said and done I was out $1750, that's a lot cheaper than another car.

Just think how many qts of oil you could buy for $1750 bucks.

[alamogunr]

I know this thread is about Honda but Toyota is a similar case. I have had two Toyota Avalons. The first we drove 195K mi with no issues. No brake linings replaced and only 3 sets of tires. Absolutely no engine/drive train problems.

The second only has 112K mi after 7½ years. We will probably replace it in another 3 years or so. Probably with another Toyota.

Just replaced my 15 year old F150 with only 95K mi. A few problems with non critical things but no good experiences with Ford dealer. The new truck is a Toyota Tundra. A basic model without all the bells and whistles that serve no useful purpose and have a tendency to fail before the vehicle is ready for replacement. This will be my last pickup and will probably be a good truck for someone someday.

The common denominator for all vehicles: Use the recommended oil, filters and perform recommended maintenance. I do my own oil changes(or will when the free changes are over for the Tundra). I have to admit that Toyota has not made it easy for do-it-yourselfers to change the oil on the Tundra. I may decide that 2 years from now when the free maintenance is over that the dealer can continue to do the oil changes. I'll be 74 at that time and may not want the bother of crawling under the truck to remove all the impediments to get to the oil drain and filter.

[alamogunr]

One more thing: Change your oil every 3-5K miles. I don't care what the manual tells you or if you run synthetic. I do this for a living and trust me, very few people drive the "normal" service routine per the book. If you are OCD like you should be and go exactly by the book, change the oil and all the filters based on the "severe" maintenance schedule, and for the love of God don't buy a #&%(ing Fram oil filter or or put Pennzoil in your engine.

Mobil One is pretty tough to beat, but don't think you can get away with 10K change intervals unless you have found a way to keep combustion acids out of the crankcase. Greyhound has found a way with a specialized, continuous-filtration system that removes coolant, moisture and all contaminants, but you can't afford one.

Gear

I know I'm swimming against the current here but I change my oil every 10K mi or so. I use a good synthetic(Schaeffer's) in the weight recommended by the manufacturer. I have the used oil tested every 2nd or 3rd oil change. I have done this for the last two cars(Avalons) mentioned in previous post. I probably won't be able to use the Schaeffer's in the Tundra since they don't make a 0W-20 weight oil. I will probably use Mobil 1 or Amsoil and continue the 10K interval.

I'm not disputing Gear's advice here. I am of the opinion that changing oil every 3-5K mi will absolutely avoid any problems due to oil. I just choose to go with current thinking on the quality of oil.

I do agree with Gear on Fram filters. Many who investigate such things consider them junk also. I use Toyota, Wix(NAPA Gold) or Purolator Pure1. All are premium filters.

If you really want to get anal, go here:http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Sorry for the hijack!

PS I am not hard on a vehicle. That fact may influence my results and not apply to yours.

[Calamity Jake]

Just think how many qts of oil you could buy for $1750 bucks.

Yes and about every 2-3 weeks I would be changeing a spark plug as the bad cylinder(on the back side of a
front wheel drive) fouled it out causing a miss and a check engine lite.