Smith & Wesson customer service Sucks!

[HANDYMAN]

Purchased a 629-4 44mag revolver this past summer and noticed the cylinder throats were .428- using my gauge pins as well as a jacketed bullet that measures .429 wouldn't come close to fitting through the cylinder throat. I bought it for mainly shooting cast bullets and as you all know I got severe leading and so-so accuracy. I called S&W and explained the problem and they sent me an RMA. I got the pistol back 3 weeks later with a note that says "Nothing I can do about leading". I called them this morning to find out why nothing was done to get told that all their cylinders are made on CNC machines and are all exactly the same so that means it was made to our specs and that's how it is. I guess I'll be selling this one for a super Redhawk. Not to mention I would think that it would cause excessive pressure since the bullet isn't able to jump freely to the forcing cone and is stopped and squeezed as soon as it starts to leave the cartridge.

[osteodoc08]

Dang, that does suck. My experience with smith CS was excellent last year when I had a 586 with light primer strikes. Turn around from my door back to me and on the range withing 2 weeks. They also addressed some of the minor things like the scratched finish. It was repolished and reblued and looks fantastic. Light primer strikes are a thing of the past. I was very happy.

The 629 platform is a good one. May I suggest just sending the cylinder off to be reamed to whatever size you want? It will be more cost effective and hopefully youll have a life long friend.

[55BoysATR]

If you like the gun, have the cylinder throats opened up. Guys on the S&W Forum should direct you to a good smith to have the work done. The throats might be "in tolerance"by the maker, but creates havoc for some shooters expectations. I had a Beretta 12ga auto loader with the choke seat machined cockeyed. It was deemed "in spec" by their test procedure, but threw the pattern far enough to the left that it was almost useless for pass shooting ducks with high velocity steel shot.

[Dale53]

Handyman;
There is an alternative. Last year, I bought a Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible. It wouldn't chamber my .45 ACP reloads with a 200 gr SWC Mihec version of the H&G #68 in the .45 ACP cylinder. It would chamber factory hardball (which I have no desire to use in this revolver). When shooting cast bullets in the .45 Colt cylinder, it started leading from shot one and by the time I had shot thirty rounds, it had leaded bad enough that I could see the accuracy degrade on the target, progressively, when shooting offhand at 25 yards.

I have a friend who happens to have a Manson Reamer Kit complete with pilots. I used the pilots as plug gauges and learned that my cylinder throats in both cylinders were .449"-.450" (bore is .451+). I used the reamer kit to ream both cylinders (I was trained as a machinist) to .4525". Afterwards, the revolver shot (and shoots) like an NRA Bullseye gun in both cylinders and I have NO problems using my reloads in the .45 ACP.

Three of us bought these revolvers at the same time. All three of them suffered from the same problem. I corrected all three (total of six cylinders) and also corrected my Bisley Vaquero .45 Colt that suffered a bit from the same problem.

It is true that I shouldn't have had to do this. On the other hand, I now have a couple of revolvers with "custom" throats that shoot extremely well. I am happy, happy, happy...!!

The reamer kits are not cheap. Brownell's has them. Be sure and get them with the pilots as they are necessary to insure correct alignment while you turn the reamer by hand. If you are not up to the job, you can have a good pistolsmith correct the problem. "Cylindersmith" is no longer doing .44's, I understand, otherwise I would send you there. By all reports, he does a FINE job and has quick turnaround.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[NSB]

Agree with the above answers. I had a Ruger revolver one time that the cylinders weren't in line all the way around. Two of them would throw the bullet to a different POA. Ruger fixed it. Just shows, every manufacturer of high volume products has spec and defects. I've owned two SW 629s that were great. You can vent or just get it fixed and get on with shooting it. FYI...I've got two Win/Miroku rifles right now with very short throats and a reamer won't even come close to bottoming out. Took one to Turnbull and they took almost 250 thou off (yeah, that's right. Almost a quarter inch). I'm taking the second one in next week for the same thing. They shoot good so I'm biting the bullet (pun intended) and paying to get them fixed. They are probably "in spec". My point is that they all have these things happen. You can fix it if you like the gun or get rid of the gun. Either way it's going to cost you so you just have to decide.

[GabbyM]

Why would you of thought S&W would tune your revolver for you?

[HATCH]

Why would you of thought S&W would tune your revolver for you?

That isn't tuning.
In the past the S&W revolvers were RIGHT straight out of the box. You never had to ream out the cylinders. All you had to do is do a trigger job (for lighter trigger pull) and that was it.

Here is my complaint.

In the late summer 2013 my dad sent in a model 610 (10 mm n frame). The problem was the extractor rod was bent, The rear sight assembly needed to be replaced and the star extractor had issues.
This is basically a 5 minute fix. Just replace parts. No fitting really required.
In November I called to check on it. They said they were in the middle of evaluating it or had just evaluated it (they couldn't tell me which it was) and they would send out a repair estimate.
Well it was approved and payment sent. Check was cashed in early December.
I called yesterday to see what the hold up was.
They had no record of payment.
After I explained they said oh, its in shipping. Should be shipped out tomorrow (which is today)

From what I understand the database that handles all of their repairs was destroyed.
So weapons that were in for repair basically got lost in the shuffle.
This is how some guns that were sent in got repaired and sent out in less then 2 weeks and how this model 610 took 8 months

All I got to say is this thing better be friggin PERFECT or I am gonna be pissed.

[reed1911]

No offense Hatch, but it seems that the issue is more your expectation than their service. While in the past S&W was a wonderful company with many talented smiths, they are now a large company of assemblers and a small custom shop of smiths. You can still get a S&W done totally right out of the box, you just have to order it from the custom shop, and pay the price for the work. Most that come out of the main shop are okay, some are excellent, some are down right crappy. If it were me, I would simply opt to do the work on it myself rather than run the risk of shipping it back and having the normal guys work on it and screw it up. They are doing the same thing to T/C now.

[Shuz]

I have several 629 Smiths with .428 throats. FWIW, I shoot nothing but cast, and mainly plain based boolits, out of mine, and I size my boolits to .431 and get great accuracy and minimal leading as long as I use slower powders such as 2400 and WC 820. When I use Green Dot or Unique for 1000 fps area loads, I get a little more leading, but it is easily cleaned up by shooting 5 ea gas checked boolits with 2400 or WC 820. Maybe some day I'll ream the throats out as others have suggested so that everything is "perfect", but so far, I've been very happy doing what I've been doing.

[GabbyM]

You guys do realize you can't push a .429" pin in a .429" bore unless you lube it then put it under an arbor press. I'd about guarantee you S&W has not a single man on there shop floor that knows how to measure a bore. If they did he'd be fired for some BS reason within weeks. Never been in S&W's shop. That's just the general state of manufacturing in America. As soon as the phone rep told you they were made on CNC machines so are correct. That pretty much tells me they don't even measure the parts. At some point they may use a beat up go no go gage.

[jrayborn]

Gabby, not all shops in this country are run like that. I work in an awful good one.

[HANDYMAN]

Just sucks that they are not willing to even do a damn thing about it when it's a fairly easy fix for one of their gunsmiths to do. Could've just saved me the time of sending it in and told me that was their spec and they wouldn't do anything. I have an older 686 with silhouette sights that I absolutely love and shoots cast great. Was really hoping to have a 44mag Smith that would do the same seeing as how I have a ton of 250gr Keith SWC's sitting around.

[monadnock#5]

Give these guys a shout. If they can do it, it will be done for a reasonable price and I would be surprised if it took more than 10 days before you had your cylinder again. They have restored my faith in the American Gunsmith.

http://www.slgunshop.com/contact

[bhn22]

And in years past, S&W was pretty consistent with .433 throats. People complained, and they tightened them after a while. Perfection is a relative term. Ruger often has similar issues, so you might not find relief there either.

[GabbyM]

Gabby, not all shops in this country are run like that. I work in an awful good one.

Yes and I've worked in good ones too. Been twenty years back though. I worked for Caterpillar for a little over a year. That was an eye opener. I hear there direct competitors. Kamatsu in Peoria and John Deere are decent to very good places to work. They make a lot better machine too.

[MtGun44]

Handguns are designed for JACKETED bullets in factory ammo. That pistol will probably shoot them
very well. The fact that a does not shoot cast boolits in reloads exceptionally well is not a serious concern
of any handgun maker today. Modifying the gun to be optimized for cast is, unfortunately, not
something you can expect any maker to do. This is a simple and inexpensive change. When I
had similar issues with a Ruger BH, it didn't even cross my mind to send it to Ruger, I just reamed
(both) cylinders to SUIT ME. The gun is fine now for a very little bit of money.

Your expectations are unrealistic.

Bill

[mikeym1a]

You are missing the point. The barrel measured 'X', the throat measured 'Y'. At the very least, 'Y' should equal 'X' for proper accuracy. When 'Y' is less than 'X', you will only get mediocre accuracy, even with jacketed bullets. I don't care if they are made on a 'CNC' machine. Someone programmed the machine wrong, or a cutter was worn, or whatever. Obviously, there were no Quality Control inspections to make sure that the parts were of proper size. He obviously expected them to make 'Y' ~= 'X' and they failed to do so. This from a company that once prided itself on making 1st class firearms. If a person wants mediocre workmanship, they can buy Rossi.



No offense Hatch, but it seems that the issue is more your expectation than their service. While in the past S&W was a wonderful company with many talented smiths, they are now a large company of assemblers and a small custom shop of smiths. You can still get a S&W done totally right out of the box, you just have to order it from the custom shop, and pay the price for the work. Most that come out of the main shop are okay, some are excellent, some are down right crappy. If it were me, I would simply opt to do the work on it myself rather than run the risk of shipping it back and having the normal guys work on it and screw it up. They are doing the same thing to T/C now.

[detox]

I guess I'll be selling this one for a super Redhawk.

I'll take it off your hands.

What bullet design, alloy, lube, powder and sizing die did you use?

A softer 20/1 alloy (9 bhn), good LBT soft lube and quicker burning powder may cure problem without having to cut cylinder throats. Keep velocity around 800 fps. Using a gas check will help also, especially at higher velocities

According to Handloader magazine issue 288....... Beginning around 1990 S&W changed throat diameter from .432 to around .429.

Size your bullets .430 no larger

[HANDYMAN]

I'm sorry but what is the point of having a 44mag to shoot loads at 800fps to prevent leading? The simple fact of the matter is any manufacturer should know better than to make a cylinders throats smaller than the bores diameter. When I owned some Taurus revolvers their customer service was 10x's better than S&W.

[Piedmont]

The simple fact of the matter is any manufacturer should know better than to make a cylinders throats smaller than the bores diameter.

Yeah, well, it is too bad the two biggest revolver manufacturers in the U.S.A. regularly make that mistake. I have about decided the only way to get a well made revolver other than by chance is to go to a custom smith, tell him exactly what you want, and hope he listens. Freedom Arms reputedly turns out good guns and I wouldn't be against owning one but they are ugly to my eye, and I'm not going to blow that kind of money on a revolver that I think is ugly.

Actually, getting your cylinder throats fixed isn't that large a problem, but you are right that you shouldn't have to do it.

Colt isn't and wasn't immune from this either. They kept making the same mistakes for decades and are still doing it.

[Tatume]

S&W has made no secret about changing their specs to 0.429" for cylinder throats. Brian Pearce has written about it several times. He also prefers the older, larger throat spec, but reports that the current production guns shoot quite well. I agree with others here that asking a manufacturer to modify a gun to be out of specification is unrealistic.

[Mal Paso]

I used a Manson Reamer to open the throats to .431 and have been happy with the results. Most dramatic improvement was shooting Specials, slight improvement in Magnums. No Leading.

If you want a DA you'll not find a more tunable action than S&W. Single Action is where Ruger excels.

[Changeling]

The manufacture definitely has a right (SW) to build there pistols anyway they want to! Be it correctly or incorrectly. If they decide that it is not cost effective for them to make there pistols/revolvers to the correct specifications why in the Hell do people keep buying them, Dumb!

It is not a major problem for them relative to having barrels/chambers made to the correct specifications, it is just a matter of controlling there suppliers with the specifications that are required ! If the manufactured product doesn't meet there specifications they don't get paid!
However by reducing there criteria for specifications relative to rejected items, they save money!
Guess what end of the "shaft" you are on.

Answer, don't buy and complain like HELL! You would be dumb struck how fast things were fixed in there manufacture products.

Now the ringers will refute ! Go guys!

[btroj]

So they didn't make a gun that shoots well with the single bullet you want to shoot and are angry because they wouldn't customize it to work?

Wow.

I suppose I shouldn't have ever lapped the throats on my 45 Colt BH to stop leading caused by .449 throats. Then again, if I sold off the gun I wouldn't have learned how easy a fix it was and wouldn't have the pleasure of shooting a gun that I made work for my needs.

Like Mtgun 44 said, I bet it shoots well with factory jacketed loads just like SW designed it to do.....

[detox]

After opening the throats to .431, will your guns shoot jacketed bullets as accurately as before?

I believe the majority of S&W owners do not cast, which is the reason for the smaller .429 throats.

[Jaymo]

I wonder if some people are even reading the OP.
His chamber throats are SMALLER than the barrel groove diameter.
That is unacceptable.

Instead of defending Smith, we should all be demanding they build them right.
For what they charge for these guns, there's no excuse for them not being perfect out of the box.
Remember, they went to CNC machinery and cheap MIM parts to drastically reduce their manufacturing costs.
If you're going to build them cheaper, you should sell them cheaper.
If not, at least build the damn things right.

Does Smith use union labor?
That would explain a lot of the issues with their newer models.

And people thought Bangor Punta Smiths were bad.
I'll take my BP era Smiths over any new Smith.

[GabbyM]

After opening the throats to .431, will your guns shoot jacketed bullets as accurately as before?

I believe the majority of S&W owners do not cast, which is the reason for the smaller .429 throats.

There you go.
running a reamer is a fifteen minute job. Aint been a machinist but for forty years but steel is like a pyramid and cant' be changed. takes a million doler cnbcb mac to make a purt.

[taco650]

Handyman;
There is an alternative. Last year, I bought a Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible. It wouldn't chamber my .45 ACP reloads with a 200 gr SWC Mihec version of the H&G #68 in the .45 ACP cylinder. It would chamber factory hardball (which I have no desire to use in this revolver). When shooting cast bullets in the .45 Colt cylinder, it started leading from shot one and by the time I had shot thirty rounds, it had leaded bad enough that I could see the accuracy degrade on the target, progressively, when shooting offhand at 25 yards.

I have a friend who happens to have a Manson Reamer Kit complete with pilots. I used the pilots as plug gauges and learned that my cylinder throats in both cylinders were .449"-.450" (bore is .451+). I used the reamer kit to ream both cylinders (I was trained as a machinist) to .4525". Afterwards, the revolver shot (and shoots) like an NRA Bullseye gun in both cylinders and I have NO problems using my reloads in the .45 ACP.

Three of us bought these revolvers at the same time. All three of them suffered from the same problem. I corrected all three (total of six cylinders) and also corrected my Bisley Vaquero .45 Colt that suffered a bit from the same problem.

It is true that I shouldn't have had to do this. On the other hand, I now have a couple of revolvers with "custom" throats that shoot extremely well. I am happy, happy, happy...!!

The reamer kits are not cheap. Brownell's has them. Be sure and get them with the pilots as they are necessary to insure correct alignment while you turn the reamer by hand. If you are not up to the job, you can have a good pistolsmith correct the problem. "Cylindersmith" is no longer doing .44's, I understand, otherwise I would send you there. By all reports, he does a FINE job and has quick turnaround.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

Just priced these items at Brownells: $130 + shipping.

There's an alternative mentioned in this article that's much cheaper:http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/59

You may not want to DIY but I agree with the others that "fixing" the revolver you have is an easier route than selling and trying to find something else. Smith made to their current specs & you can't expect them to do different. I have a Dan Wesson 44mag that has the same issue. I don't know what my throat size is but I do know I can push a .430HCSWC through the throat like I can with my 80's vintage SBH. I just discovered this after shooting it for 20+ years. Many of those years I shot j-words from it.

[btroj]

I wonder if some people are even reading the OP.
His chamber throats are SMALLER than the barrel groove diameter.
That is unacceptable.

Instead of defending Smith, we should all be demanding they build them right.
For what they charge for these guns, there's no excuse for them not being perfect out of the box.
Remember, they went to CNC machinery and cheap MIM parts to drastically reduce their manufacturing costs.
If you're going to build them cheaper, you should sell them cheaper.
If not, at least build the damn things right.

Does Smith use union labor?
That would explain a lot of the issues with their newer models.

And people thought Bangor Punta Smiths were bad.
I'll take my BP era Smiths over any new Smith.

But how does it shoot with factory ammo? That is what they build em for.

If you think they spec the parts for best accuracy with cast bullets you are fooling yourself. They are made for jacketed bullets and factory ammo.

[osteodoc08]

Just call them tomorrow and ask to speak with someone that truly understands revolvers. Explain to them what your expectations are and see if they can do something for you. The girl I talked too when I sent mine in didn't know much about revolvers. I typed up a note with my issues and explained what I had expected on return (in a polite way). Perhaps that's all you need to do. Or send them out and get reamed.

[MtGun44]

Expecting S&W to care even a little bit how their gun shoots with your
"homemade bullets" is a totally unrealistic expectation.

They only care how the guns work with factory ammo. The fact that it
doesn't work with your boolits very likely will not be something that you
can make them care about regardless of how reasonable you think
it is.

Someone made the comment about making a the throats smaller than
groove diameter is "unacceptable". Sorry, that is a ridiculous viewpoint.
With jbullets - this can work just fine and a close fit for JACKETED in the
throats is likely to enhance accuracy - WITH JACKETED.

Expectations that current production pistols be optimized for cast boolits is
an unrealistic expectation and very likely to be disappointed regularly. We
all need to face the fact that casters represent a very tiny minority of handgun
buyers. Expecting gun makers to primarily cater to our specific dimensional
preferences is pretty unrealistic.

When I check the throats on a revolver before buying and find that they are
"too tight" - I am PLEASED and buy the gun. I can easily and cheaply "fix"
this gun, whereas a gun with oversized throats is a giant pain to deal with,
either needing a custom mold or a replacement cylinder. Neither is attractive.

Bill

[TXGunNut]

S&W may not build revolvers for some cast boolits but they do build an excellent firearm and they provide excellent customer service. I've sent many thousands of swaged and soft cast bullets downrange thru S&W revolvers from L-frame to J-frame and there's no finer gun made for the job. At the bigger matches a team of S&W armourers set up shop to service competitor's firearms and often support or sponsor matches. Haven't had to deal with S&W CS lately because my revolvers are all retired for the most part, but all are up to the job if need be.
Sorry you had a bad experience with them, I hope things work out for you.

[HANDYMAN]

Expecting S&W to care even a little bit how their gun shoots with your
"homemade bullets" is a totally unrealistic expectation.

They only care how the guns work with factory ammo. The fact that it
doesn't work with your boolits very likely will not be something that you
can make them care about regardless of how reasonable you think
it is.

Someone made the comment about making a the throats smaller than
groove diameter is "unacceptable". Sorry, that is a ridiculous viewpoint.
With jbullets - this can work just fine and a close fit for JACKETED in the
throats is likely to enhance accuracy - WITH JACKETED.

Expectations that current production pistols be optimized for cast boolits is
an unrealistic expectation and very likely to be disappointed regularly. We
all need to face the fact that casters represent a very tiny minority of handgun
buyers. Expecting gun makers to primarily cater to our specific dimensional
preferences is pretty unrealistic.

When I check the throats on a revolver before buying and find that they are
"too tight" - I am PLEASED and buy the gun. I can easily and cheaply "fix"
this gun, whereas a gun with oversized throats is a giant pain to deal with,
either needing a custom mold or a replacement cylinder. Neither is attractive.

Bill

I don't expect them to care about my homemade bullets I expect them to build a revolver that shoots the vast majority of ammo accurately which if you haven't looked lately a ton of 44mag factory ammo is lead.

[MtGun44]

"A ton of 44mag factory ammo is lead." - - - - - Hmm. I seriously doubt this, but have
not bought any factory 44 ammo in decades. All that I see at gun shows is jacketed.
A quick check of Fed shows 7 loads, one lead. I did a look at several online ammo sellers,
looking at all their .44 Mag ammo. Repeatedly, the ONLY lead .44M load is the Fed Cast-Core
ammo.

I don't think there is a "ton" - as a matter of fact I'll go so far as to challenge you to find
any Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Federal, Fiocchi or other maker that has any lead
bullet ammo other than that one Fed load. Of course, Buffalo Bore is a cast bullet company,
and I am sure that they will load .44 Mag, but I doubt they make 1/2 of 1% of the ammo sold.

Frankly, I call hogwash. If there is even 5% of .44 Mag factory ammo that has lead boolits
I would be surprised.

My point stands. S&W does not design to 5% or less of the ammo market. I would suggest
that the only cartridge where a substantial part of the normal factory ammo supply is
lead boolits is the .38 Spl.


Bill

[HANDYMAN]

"A ton of 44mag factory ammo is lead." - - - - - Hmm. I seriously doubt this, but have
not bought any factory 44 ammo in decades. All that I see at gun shows is jacketed.
A quick check of Fed shows 7 loads, one lead. I did a look at several online ammo sellers,
looking at all their .44 Mag ammo. Repeatedly, the ONLY lead .44M load is the Fed Cast-Core
ammo.

I don't think there is a "ton" - as a matter of fact I'll go so far as to challenge you to find
any Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Federal, Fiocchi or other maker that has any lead
bullet ammo other than that one Fed load. Of course, Buffalo Bore is a cast bullet company,
and I am sure that they will load .44 Mag, but I doubt they make 1/2 of 1% of the ammo sold.

Frankly, I call hogwash. If there is even 5% of .44 Mag factory ammo that has lead boolits
I would be surprised.

My point stands. S&W does not design to 5% or less of the ammo market. I would suggest
that the only cartridge where a substantial part of the normal factory ammo supply is
lead boolits is the .38 Spl.


Bill



I'm not sure what you consider a ton but:

Ultra max
3D Blue
Buffalo Bore
Grizzly
HSM
Double Tap
Corbon
Ten X
Federal
BVAC

and I'm sure I missed some since I found these in just a couple minutes.

[detox]

There is a majic lead bullet load that will work in that gun. You just need to quit crying and find it.

[Larry in MT]

My 629-4 Classic DEFINITELY has smaller throats than did my 629-3 Classic. I have no pin gauges but my 285 grain WFNGC hardcasts which are .431" slightly stick in the cylinder about 1/16" before they bottom out on the rim and that did concern me. If I shoot only part of a cylinder-full it takes a "rap" of the heel of my hand to dislodge the remaining unfired rounds.

However, they are very accurate and don't lead. I'm not sure why I should change anything but I'm not an expert --- Although next Beartooth Bullet order I think I'll opt for .430"...

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab176/larrykay47/c542cbf8.jpg

25 yards
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab176/larrykay47/4884b437.jpg

[Char-Gar]

Just a couple of thoughts on the issue at hand;

1. Smith and Wesson makes revolvers to shoot jacketed ammo and not cast bullets.

2. Smith and Wesson service department has the task of fixing what does not come up to their specs and not to make a customer happy who is trying to do something they did not design and sell the revolver to do.

3. Smith and Wesson makes their cylinder throats to a pretty uniform .430 these days. It seems to be a fad these days to buy cheap Chinese pin gauges and think they have a precision tool of some sort. Cylinders throats are never perfectly round to .0001 tolerances. Pin gauges are never perfectly round to .0001 tolerances either. Mass produced jacketed bullets are also never perfectly round. So you can see the problems. Most likely the throats are OK.

4. There is a better than even chance the leading experienced by the OP is not related to the cylinder throat, but to inferior bullets in design and/or alloy and/or sorry quality lube.

5. In all areas of life, people get unhappy when their expectations are not met by others. All to often the expectations are not based in reality making for an unhappy camper.

[phantom15]

There is a majic lead bullet load that will work in that gun. You just need to quit crying and find it.

I ain't no checker player but I think its your move Handyman........

[btroj]

I'm not sure what you consider a ton but:

Ultra max
3D Blue
Buffalo Bore
Grizzly
HSM
Double Tap
Corbon
Ten X
Federal
BVAC

and I'm sure I missed some since I found these in just a couple minutes.

And most of those are pretty small players in the ammo market.

Detox is right. Find a load that works or sell the gun. Whining doesn't help.

You can fix the problem easily yourself. It is what most of us would have already done. We like to shoot, not bellyache.

[chill45100]

Purchased a 629-4 44mag revolver this past summer and noticed the cylinder throats were .428- using my gauge pins as well as a jacketed bullet that measures .429 wouldn't come close to fitting through the cylinder throat. I bought it for mainly shooting cast bullets and as you all know I got severe leading and so-so accuracy. I called S&W and explained the problem and they sent me an RMA. I got the pistol back 3 weeks later with a note that says "Nothing I can do about leading". I called them this morning to find out why nothing was done to get told that all their cylinders are made on CNC machines and are all exactly the same so that means it was made to our specs and that's how it is. I guess I'll be selling this one for a super Redhawk. Not to mention I would think that it would cause excessive pressure since the bullet isn't able to jump freely to the forcing cone and is stopped and squeezed as soon as it starts to leave the cartridge.
Handyman,
How much do you want for your revolver?
Thank you,
Chill45100

[HANDYMAN]

I made my move I sold the *** and got a nice redhawk. If S&W wants to build revolvers only for jacketed ammo then they should say that in the manual. I'm done with them. When I spend almost $700 on a revolver I don't feel I should have to modify and void any warranties to make it shoot what it was designed to. Thanks to those of you that offered constructive help.

[gmsharps]

I have owned a lot of Smiths over the years and with the exception of a Model 52 I have had to work on all of them to get them to do what I want. Companys are building to suit the masses and not to an indivivual. I would much rather have one with small throats and open them up to a consistant size than have them to large and have to live with it. The triggers for me are bad and I have to hone rough areas and change springs. I choose to do that. As for me the smiths are easier to work on than most others. I really like 1911's and years ago you would buy a Colt and then change out and fit the parts you wanted or if you had the bucks send it to a competant gunsmith and have them do the work. Kimber listened and put the features that a lot of folks were spending big bucks on and put it in a standard gun. I know firearms cost a lot these days but things have not changed much. Just buy the gun you like and modify it to do your biddings. Don't expect custom work at standard prices. Just my thoughts.

gmsharps

[btroj]

Wow, got a Ruger. We all know that they are always dimensioned well for cast from the get go........

No manufacturer states a specific bullet style or makeup to my knowledge. They make the PM for "standard" factory ammo.

[osteodoc08]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?222520-Why-some-new-members-will-do-better-than-others-here

Just Sayin'

OP, I honestly hope you get things sorted out and find happiness with your Ruger. To achieve maximum accuracy with cast, I'd recommend getting the throats reamed. I've had that done to my 45 Colts and it shrank the groups in half. Enjoy the process of finding the "right" alloy, lube, size, shape, etc combination. It's a process and should be enjoyed. If not, cast boolits may not be your thing.

[HANDYMAN]

I've been casting for over 10 years I know about alloys, pressure and velocity thresholds, There was no way I was going to be able to push any alloy at 44 magnum levels through that S&W without issues. I have friends that work at Ruger so I know If for some very unlikely reason I have any issues with my Redhawk they'll take care of it for me. I'm not a noob at this I reload and cast for every caliber I own except for 223. I have excellent loads for almost all my guns that don't lead and are dead accurate including my Garands.My cast loads for my S&W 686 I push at over 1400fps with no leading because it's built the way it should be with cylinder throats slightly larger than the bore. Amazingly it shoots jacketed just as well! Go figure.

I didn't start this thread to get into an argument. I just wanted to let people know that S&W isn't about customer service. They don't care if there product isn't built properly to handle lead bullets yet don't tell you to only shoot jacketed ammo. I have a Ruger 44 carbine it says in the manual we do not recommend shooting lead ammo in it as it may clog the gas system. At least Ruger knows it's limitations. S&W used to be a great company but I'm now positive those days are gone. Maybe some day If I come across a nice older 29 or 629 I'll give one another go but I'm definitely staying away from there later production. My S&W 28-2 and 27-2 are truly the finest revolvers I own and unbelievably accurate with every load I've shot in them. But again those are from S&W's good ole days.

[btroj]

So the fact you have friends at Ruger who will fix things makes their poor dimensions for cast ok?

[HANDYMAN]

I also can recall 2 instances where at no fault to Ruger they have completely repaired someones Revolver to like new. The first one I know and handled was a super Redhawk in 44 magnum that was stolen in a home burglary used in a robbery and thrown in a River where it sat for 2 years. The police department returned it to the owner and before it went to Ruger I was able to see and handle it. I couldn't believe that after 2 years under water the only visible damage to that Redhawk was the sights had rusted off and the springs felt a little weak but still functioned and timing was still perfect. The other I read about in a magazine where a lady's departed husband had lost his Redhawk during hunting season and she found it years later and same story sent it to Ruger and at no charge repaired it to like new again. That's customer service I can stand behind. Even Taurus has done the same for me personally. My first revolver was a Taurus 66 in SS that someone had scoped. The idiot that put the scope on Pried the rear sight out of the frame and damaged the slot it sat in. I called Taurus to ask how much to fix it they told me to send it in and next thing I knew I had a package with a brand new Taurus 7 shot 357 at my door. Just goes to show how some manufactures will go outta their way to take care of there customers Others just say that's our spec deal with it.

[osteodoc08]

Perhaps this should be the impromptu Ruger litmus test........

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?228853-45-Colt-5-5-quot-barrel-going-back-to-Ruger

[btroj]

Perhaps this should be the impromptu Ruger litmus test........

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?228853-45-Colt-5-5-quot-barrel-going-back-to-Ruger

Too had he doesn't have friends there to make sure he gets what he wants

[HATCH]

To clarify my earlier post.
My dad sent the revolver back in MAY 2013, he just arrived Monday.
Basically 265 days to replace a extractor rod, the extractor star, and the rear site assembly.
I think its total BS that you are stuff sending a weapon back to them because they don't sell the parts

[Char-Gar]

I made my move I sold the *** and got a nice redhawk. If S&W wants to build revolvers only for jacketed ammo then they should say that in the manual. I'm done with them. When I spend almost $700 on a revolver I don't feel I should have to modify and void any warranties to make it shoot what it was designed to. Thanks to those of you that offered constructive help.

I have not kept up with this thread, but did go back and read it again. It is my opinion that everybody offered constructive help. Some of it agreed with your point of view, but most did not. Trying to inject a little reality into somebody's unhappiness is not a non-constructive thing to do, when the unhappiness comes from non-reality based expectations.

If you came to this board seeking information you got what you were looking for. If you came to this board looking for agreement, then you did not get what you were looking for. Most folks are not going to agree that Smith and Wesson customer service sucks based on your unrealistic expectations.

[Char-Gar]

To clarify my earlier post.
My dad sent the revolver back in MAY 2013, he just arrived Monday.
Basically 265 days to replace a extractor rod, the extractor star, and the rear site assembly.
I think its total BS that you are stuff sending a weapon back to them because they don't sell the parts

It is the extractor star that plays a big role is the carry up and alignment of the cylinder, which is a major safety issue. For safety reasons they must be fitted with care. This is why Smith and Wesson won't sell them as parts. They are liable if they send out parts that are incorrectly fitted by the user and then said user is injured. Some users could fit a new star correctly and some could not, and Smith and Wesson has no way to know which is which. This is the reason why some parts are factory install only, and that is quite reasonable. It may be a pain, but it is not unreasonable.

It is however unfortunate the records got eaten and drew the process out. In the days of paper all we had to worry about was some idiot loosing it or having a fire. With digital records all sorts of gremlins can eat them.

[Scott_R]

I have an old 629-1, which I believe S&W stopped making before 1990. (I bought used 10 years ago, so I don't know it's full history)

I'm hoping I have no issues as I just got on a group buy for a Mihec 429244 dropping at .432, and had planned to size at .430.

[MtGun44]

LOL! THE WORST dimenesions for cast of any pistol I have was a really NICE Ruger BH convertible.
It never even occurred to me to be irritated that it was dimensioned way too tight for cast in the
throats. I just fixed it. Actually, I was tickled that it was too tight, that is easy to fix, whereas
too loose is not. I would not have even thought to complain to Ruger about it.

Good luck with your Ruger, but you are living in an alternate universe if you think that gunmakers
do anything but make their guns for "standard ammo" which today, pretty much means about 90-95%
jacketed in handguns, with a very few lead boolits being available anymore outside of .22 rimfire and
.38 Spl.

Bill

[dubber123]

Tonights project was a very nice 7-1/2" Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt. It has a healthy restriction at the forcing cone, an another 1/2 way down the barrel. Luckily the throats aren't too tight on this one, the smallest measure .4555", 2 measure .4560". :)

[MtGun44]

Like I said, when my .45 BH throats were too tight - I was happy. Sorry about your
throats, dubber.

Bill

[dubber123]

Like I said, when my .45 BH throats were too tight - I was happy. Sorry about your
throats, dubber.

Bill

It would have been great to have them be tight like the ones on your gun, but alas.. It's not my gun, I'm just he mechanic in charge of fixing it. My fattest mold casts at .4545" so thats what I am using. The only issue with that is it is a 310 gr. SWC that only shoots well when pushed hard. I tried everything else, and finally gave up and loaded some with 23.0 grs. of H-110. It's not a plinker anymore, but it shot in 2.10" at 50 yds. yesterday. There may be hope yet. Sorry for the thread drift, but I guess it shows no maker is perfect every time.

[armexman]

OP, you are a lloron!
Ream them out with LBT paste and Greendot all of 25 minutes; 5 for shooting, 20 for checking where the houseowners was at the moment;)
I know you don't have anymore; but you are still a lloron.

[Tatume]

Now now, be nice.