.25 ACP rifle, what powder? [Archive]

Crank

01-31-2014, 01:19 AM

Yes you read that correctly. I just received my chambering reamer from PTG today and finally cut the chamber in my Lothar Walther barrel that now resides on a former Winchester 1903. All of the loading data out there is focused around pushing a pill out of a 2" barrel. I currently have 22.5" worth of barrel to work with until I decide if I want to shorten it and wondered if anyone has a suggestion for something other than Bullseye or Unique. I test fired 4 factory rounds (through a wadded up towel) without incident, but suspect the powder had lost all of its pressure by the time the bullet exited the muzzle due to the small amount of soot left in the towel. I do not profess to have a thorough knowledge of powder characteristics, so I am hoping that someone can suggest a powder that would better utilize the longer tube and still fit in the case. I don't know if this is the best section to post this since it is a handgun cartridge out of a rifle, but as you can see I am still the "New Guy" to the forum. Thanks in advance.

Mark

MtGun44

01-31-2014, 01:30 AM

You will run out of pressure long before you run out of barrel. The expansion
ratio is hopeless. With a tiny, straight case, every roughly 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch
of bullet travel (bore length) will represent the case volume. If you look at a
.22 LR, they have a similar problem, and they slow down actually after something
in the neighborhood of 16 bbl length.

You will certainly fully expand your powder and it should be really quiet, but you
won't get just massively more velocity than from a 4 or 5 inch barrel, if any.

You have to balance the case volume ( which controls the quantity of powder) with
the barrel volume, measured in multiples. Some extreme varmint cartridges have
expansion ratios of maybe 3 or 4 where a .45-70 with a short barrel of 16 inches
has an expansion ratio of more like 10. A 16 inch .44 Mag should have an
expansion ratio of about 13-15 or so. Your rifle should have an expansion ratio
in the range of 60 or more, WAY outside of the normal range.

Have fun - it will sure be quiet!

Bill

JHeath

01-31-2014, 01:43 AM

Others can provide guidance on the powder. But what bullet, how long a throat (seating depth) and what are you shooting at? Fast powders give low muzzle pressure, and little noise. You could probably shoot it in the garage. Crank up the pressure and you'll have to shoot outside. Pistol loads might be fun, unless you need flatter shooting or harder hitting.

Catshooter

01-31-2014, 02:22 AM

What fun! I think, and this is just my opinion based on zero experience that I might try starting with Unique. 2400 might be worthwhile also.

I would think you'd get into compressed loads pretty easily.

Please keep us posted!

Cat

Lonegun1894

01-31-2014, 02:25 AM

I can't say I would have thought to use a .25 ACP, but have considered a small cased medium caliber, say .30-.35 caliber pistol caliber rifle, just for quiet use like this. This seems like a great idea, somewhat special purpose, but still great for small game and such. Do you by any chance have any pictures? As to powder loads, I would actually prefer to stick with fairly fast pistol powders for the lower noise. If you were to insist on slower rifle-type powders, I would be concerned about not getting enough pressure built up due to the tiny case capacity to achieve the kinds of pressures some of the rifle powders need to actually get a good consistent burn, so you may not get satisfactory accuracy, but I wouldn't think you could stuff enough rifle powder in that case to reach dangerous levels.

reed1911

01-31-2014, 08:09 AM

I would opt for 4756, it is likely the slowest powder you will be able to use to good effect. a 50g Cast RN and 1.6g works well for me in a 10" I suspect you will have the same good luck in your longer barrel. If you cannot get it where you need it, you may consider going to the 25NAA bit more capacity (.32ACP necked down to .25)

texassako

01-31-2014, 09:02 AM

You will also need to consider the operation of the action since you put it in a semi auto that was designed around a certain bullet weight and velocity. You might need to duplicate a similar weight vs. speed to the original .22 Winchester Automatic. You say former 1903; so maybe you altered the action as well and I am wrong.

Crank

01-31-2014, 11:10 AM

Wow! I didn't expect this much response. Thanks to all for the input. My thoughts are that using a slower burning powder that is dense/energetic enough, could optimize the longer tube. As MTGun44 put it so well with his input, the limiting factor will be case volume to bore. I am quickly leaning towards this becoming a 16.5" barrel.

texassako, I already did my homework on this one and matching bolt mass/spring rate is not an issue. When I discreetly tested it with some factory Winchester expanding points, the brass exited the gun without excessive speed and there was no sensation that the action was overworked. The original load was a 45gr. bullet @ 1200fps, so if I can get ahold of one of those GB 4 cavity molds, that will cast a 46gr boolit. I am hoping that there will be a ball powder that will flow and measure consistently. The other projo of choice will be the 35gr Speer GDHP.

I will take some photos and post them, bear in mind that I have not cut the barrel dovetail for the forearm hanger and still need to get sights/scope arrangements completed, so this is a work in progress. I am just happy that I finally got off my butt to get back on track with this project and that I have validated the proof of concept that it can work.
Thanks again.

Mark

Outpost75

01-31-2014, 11:42 AM

In the tiny case you need a dense powder to keep the charge weight up.

In my converted Remington Model 580 .32 ACP rifle I use a "nominal case full" of H110 with an 82-grain cast lead hollowpoint and get about 1200 fps. I wouldn't want to shoot that in a blowback operated rifle, but in the bolt gun chamber pressure is not an issue and this rifle loves loads which would turn a pocket pistol into a grenade.

In your '03 Winchester I think I'd start with standard charges of the fast burners and increase in careful increments.

Crank

01-31-2014, 12:01 PM

I am very aware of the pressure concerns, but what I am saying is that I have a suspicion that the powder has spent itself long before the bullet exits the barrel. I wanted to do this conversion on a 1903 due to the extremely heavy bolt, which allows a long dwell time in battery before any rearward motion begins. I think it is safe to say that if I can match the ballistics of a factory round, with a significantly stronger case than a rimfire, I will have little concern. I am not trying to get 2000fps out of this gun, but I would like to scratch 1250fps with a 46gr and 1400fps with the 35gr pill.

Mark

texassako

01-31-2014, 12:05 PM

I want a .25 ACP rifle as well, and am in the middle of deciding which project gun(bolt or single shot) it will go in. I think the 16.5" barrel is a good idea. You might try Red Dot or Clays with the 35gr bullets. I have had good luck with Clays under a 31gr cast and 35 gr Hornady XTP. They are all going to run out of steam before the bullet gets out of the rifle barrel; so I would look for which powder meters best in small charges. My pistol measure chokes on small charges of Unique and the Clays was more accurate than Bullseye, out of a 2" barrel though.

Crank

01-31-2014, 12:12 PM

bedbugbilly

01-31-2014, 12:16 PM

I may be talking through my hat here . . so if I am . . just consider it's because I'm an old fart.

First off . . . sounds like a really interesting project! I hope you'll post some photos of it.

I know very little about .25 ACP but is there any old loading data around in regards to what was used in the old .25 rimfire? The cartridge that was used in the old single shot Stevens and other like rifles? I didn't do a google of the .25 rimfire but were these BP or smokeless? Perhaps someone would have some information on that cartridge that could help . . . even if listed on an old cartridge box? Just a thought.

Good luck and let us know how it progresses please . . . it ought to be fun!

Crank

01-31-2014, 12:17 PM

Crank

01-31-2014, 12:19 PM

bedbugbilly,
Excellent point about the .25-10 Stevens, but that is a much longer case and I don't know how much room was left after they transitioned to smokeless. In other words, you have pointed out something I overlooked and it makes a heck of a lot of sense.
Thanks

Mark

Outpost75

01-31-2014, 01:18 PM

I also want to mention that your "hot" loads are in line with the original European loading of the 7.65mm Browning. I had some Geco years ago that was the only thing strong enough to cycle a Dreyse 1907 that I owned and it was barking like a 9mm. It worked in the other .32's I had at the time but they were zinging empties into the next county. I would love to know more about your rifle, if you would be kind enough to share......Thanks for the idea about H110, I will investigate that.

My rifle was converted by making a new bolt head, shortening an M16 firing pin and fitting an M16 extractor to the new bolt face. A Douglas 14" twist .30 caliber barrel was used, and chambered using the front half of a .30 M1 carbine chamber reamer, setting the gun to headspace on the case mouth, but also having the semi-rim fitted to minimum.

Crank

02-01-2014, 12:29 AM

Here are pics as promised.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140125_184810_zps7ca3f85d.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140125_184810_zps7ca3f85d.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140125_184921_zps31d99fea.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140125_184921_zps31d99fea.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140125_184755_zps5ef4d9ab.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140125_184755_zps5ef4d9ab.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140131_163509_zps9e42daa8.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140131_163509_zps9e42daa8.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140131_163452_zpsdf627e1c.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140131_163452_zpsdf627e1c.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140131_162944_zps6e04de1d.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140131_162944_zps6e04de1d.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140131_163026_zps30da5075.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140131_163026_zps30da5075.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140131_163224_zps8f1e6807.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140131_163224_zps8f1e6807.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140131_163352_zpsc480d745.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140131_163352_zpsc480d745.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140131_163323_zps61497fe9.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140131_163323_zps61497fe9.jpg.html)

I will get the dovetail cut for the forearm hanger and figure out a scope base this weekend hopefully.

Mark

35remington

02-01-2014, 02:31 PM

No refinish on the receiver? I would think a nicely blued barrel on a patina'ed brown receiver would look kinda......odd.

As regards the powder thing, slow burning can be carried too far in a blowback action. 17 HMR blowback autoloaders were modified/discontinued for that reason. The pressure needs to be low when the breechface is some distance back from the fully closed position just before bullet exit, but I believe the 25 ACP case is thicker than the rimfire cases in that regard, so this might be somewhat self canceling given the very high expansion ratio of the little 25 case in a long barrel.

In any event, whatever you use for "slow" needs to be fine granuled so you can fit the required amount in the little case to obtain any hoped for velocity gain over something quicker.

kootne

02-01-2014, 03:29 PM

Pure speculation on my part, but if .22 shorts work in rifles then so should .25 ACP as far as case/bore volume ratio goes. What powders are used in .22 short ammo? I'm also guessing a cast bullet would be better suited because normally less pressure is required to achieve a specific velocity. I"ll bet you are the first kid on your block to have that rifle/cartridge combo!
kootne

Crank

02-01-2014, 04:30 PM

I have a habit of being "That Guy" when it comes to strange stuff.

Mark

taco650

02-01-2014, 05:35 PM

Would 25-20 load data be helpful? I realize the case is longer than the 25ACP. My powder suggestions lean toward medium speed such as Unique or HS-5, HS-6. Your thoughts on a shorter barrel make sense. Overall, it sounds like you are building a custom 22LR with a fatter bullet.

Loudenboomer

02-01-2014, 08:38 PM

I was thinking AA#5 may help you optimize your 16.5"barrel. Not sure how it will work on your Blow back action. Allot will depend on your final boolit selection.

sounds like a good project. I Love My Win. self loaders

Crank

02-02-2014, 04:38 PM

Got frisky and cut the dovetail, drilled and tapped the receiver for a Weaver base and reattached all of the hardware. Did not cold blue the last 3" of barrel or do a cut and crown just yet (I'm still on the fence).

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140201_175220_zpsea080e9e.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140201_175220_zpsea080e9e.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140201_175301_zps56bc42f4.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140201_175301_zps56bc42f4.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/th_20140201_175244_zps9fdce80e.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140201_175244_zps9fdce80e.jpg.html)

Here are a few pictures of the bolt modifications from last year.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/th_IMGP3964.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/IMGP3964.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/th_IMGP3970.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/IMGP3970.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/th_IMGP3971.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/IMGP3971.jpg.html)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/th_IMGP3972.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/IMGP3972.jpg.html)

For some reason, at that time I didn't show the new firing pin hole, but you can see it in the other photos I posted previously.

Crank

02-02-2014, 04:41 PM

Loudenboomer,
You could say I have a thing for Self Loaders also, but I think this is the only one I will keep. I have had my fun with the rest of them for now.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/th_IMGP3999.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/gun%20photos/WSL%20and%20such/IMGP3999.jpg.html)

Mark

Chev. William

02-02-2014, 07:52 PM

Crank,
I would suggest you try the "Ranch Dog" 51 grain Cast Lead R-FN bullet sold by "Carolina Cast Bullets" and Get a Copy of "QuichLOAD" (QL) software to try various powders in the .25ACP cartridge in a computer before trying them in a rifle.
I have QL and found the listed case net volume is slightly off, leading to it calculating slightly high MV for a given charge. I "tweaked" the volume number by comparing calculated results with Hodgdon .25ACP listed load performance, changing the volume until the MV matched for the Test barrel length then 'playing' with Rifle length barrels (21.75" Stevens .25 Long and 23.4" Lothar Walther (LW) blank max). Also "Ballistics By The Inch" web site has .25ACP factory load performance data in barrel lengths from 18 inches down to 2 inches.
My position is to keep the barrel at maximum length until you have tested a number of powder and charge weights to see what YOU can get from YOUR rifle. If nothing else, you could change the 'recoil spring' for a somewhat stronger one if the action is 'Too Energetic' with ejection on the slower powders at max charges.

My personal intent at the moment is getting one of my 1894 Stevens actions upgraded with stronger pins and screws then shooting .25ACP reloads out of a .25 Stevens Long chamber in its Stevens barrel. That will give me a good nominal measurements matching both the .25 Stevens and .25ACP for Bore/Groove Diameter and a 21.75" long (Muzzle to Breech Face) single shot rifle.

I intend to eventually convert a Marlin Model 56 to .25ACP using my LW barrel blank.

There are several threads, both here, and also on "AmmoGUIDE Interactive" Forum, "Shooters Forum", and "CAS City" relating to .25ACP, Stevens Favorite, and .250" Bullet rifle cartridges you might look at.
I know you will NOT be using Black Powder or its substitutes in your Winchester action (that is why Winchester chambered it for the Winchester Auto 22 in the first place) but for your information, the .25ACP can be loaded with 4.5 Grains of fffg GOEX Black Powder with a 50 grain jacketed bullet. (5 grains of Swiss BP)
Also the .25ACP is about the same length as a .25 Stevens Short RF cartridge and yields performance similar to the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge.

Keep your progress reports coming and test any loads you use across a Chronograph to make sure you are NOT getting too hot a load.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

FergusonTO35

02-02-2014, 10:00 PM

Crank you are so awesome. I would advise you to check out Hodgdon Titewad. It fills the case well and meters great. My .32's love it. When Sacramento finds out about your new rifle they will be sure to ban it!

mikeym1a

02-02-2014, 10:28 PM

texassako,
The only tough pill to swallow is the barrel blank. The only manufacter of one with a .251 groove depth is from Lothar Walther and they are now over $200, the last time I looked. It seemed like too much work to weld a bunch of Raven barrel together to get one long enough:wink: The other option is using Clearwater reboring, but that will also set you back about $250, but his work is excellent and you keep the parent barrel on the gun.

Mark

You can get .25acp barrels from Track of the Wolf, .251, in any length you want. I have one, 18", I think, and it looks like a pistol barrel. I also have one from Walther, which is about 1" diameter. So, you do have 2 sources to work with. As I recall, prices are not dissimilar. mikey

Crank

02-03-2014, 10:53 AM

Chev, great info, thank you for the extensive input.

Ferguson, I will also see about Titewad, I have no experience with it.

Mikey, I thought Track of the Wolf only had liners, so please excuse my omission.

I mounted a Leupold 12x fixed on it, for the time being, it should provide a good baseline for testing and I can put something milder on it later. I guess I will pull it apart and crown the barrel at this length for now. The underlying reason I did this is since the original .22 Win Auto cartridge is scarce, expensive and not particularly spectacular for performance. This allows the novelty of a reloadable cartridge that does not require extensive re-engineering of the base rifle. Converting one of these to .22LR is more work than I feel is worth it, it has been done and they range from satisfactory, to downright dangerous, depending on how well the conversion was made. I also like driving people nuts figuring out what the heck they are looking at. I took a solid frame Remington #4 and turned it into a .17HMR and people get so confused when they see the brass next to the rifle, those moments are priceless.

Mark

JHeath

02-03-2014, 05:06 PM

Chev. William

02-05-2014, 12:23 AM

My "Playing " with QuickLOAD and the .25ACP at a limit MAP of 24000psi, a barrel length of 23.4", cartridge capacity(H2O) of 5.05cc, 50 gr bullet, yielded the following THEORETICAL suggestions:
Hodgdon Powders:
Tite Group; 1.46 gr; 24424psi; 2117fps.
HP35 ; 1.65 gr; 24598psi; 1274fps.
Universal ; 1.75 gr; 24583psi; 1341fps.
HS-6 ; 2.30 gr; 24378psi; 1312fps.
H-110 ; 2.77 gr; beyond safe limits not recommended.
Litl'Gun ; 2.68 gr; beyond safe limits not recommended.
Alliant Powders:
Red Dot ; 1.37 gr; 24731psi; 1248fps.
Green Dot ; 1.51 gr; 24500psi; 1270fps.
Bullseye ; 1.64 gr; 24726psi; 1347fps.
Unique ; 1.70 gr; 18681psi; 1258fps.
Herco ; Did not run
Pwr Pistol ; 2.04 gr; 18491psi; 1252fps.
Blue Dot ; Did not run
2400 ; Did not run
Ramshot Powders:
Zip ; 1.68 gr; 24455psi; 1279fps.
Silhowette ; 2.05 gr; 24725psi; 1334fps.
True Blue ; 2.23 gr; 24749psi; 1334fps.
Enforcer ; Did not run
Winchester Powders:
W-231 ; 1.68 gr; 24455psi; 1319fps.
WAP ; 2.05 gr; 24600psi; 1326fps.
The runs were looking at MAXIMUM THEORETICAL loads to decide which powders might be suitable for use in a Rifle with a LOCKED Breech.
The action contemplated in these runs is the Marlin Model 56 'Levermatic' design converted to .25ACP using a modified .256 Win. Mag. CF Bolt assembly with a TBD single column magazine, possibly a surplus Phoenix 10 round ones rebuilt to "properly" feed .25ACP cartridges with out jamming or binding at 5 to 7 rounds.
Be VERY CAREFUL working up loads for your Blowback action as it is not a 'locked breech' design.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

02-05-2014, 04:43 PM

Chev,
Your input is phenominal, I think you covered more bases than in one post than has ever been discussed on the internet LOL. I promise that I am extremely aware of the potential risks with a blowback action. There are several ways to increase dwell time if needed to prevent the bolt from its initial accelleration. I will probably get my first chance to shoot it properly in about two weeks. I will try to document my results and include targets (for good or bad). As I own a Marlin 62 in .256, I believe that you will find that the bolt, at minimum, will require thinning to fit in the receiver. I believe that the 62 uses a much wider receiver than the 56 or 57. Still a very worthwhile endeavor and a fantastically quick action. I love the .256 and also have a Martini that I re-barreled for a friend, which, when he got silly and decided to sell it, I called first dibs since I had all of the work in it. I was also blessed by a friend, shortly before his unexpected passing, with an original Hawkeye that had survived a fire and I brought back the mechanicals (it still needs to be blued), it's ugly, but it shoots great.
Sorry to drift off on my own thread, but the .256 is a weak spot.

Mark

Chev. William

02-05-2014, 09:37 PM

Crank,
Direct comparison of of Modle 56 .22 Bolt, Model 62 .30 Carbine Bolt, and Model 62 .256 WM Bolt found that they are the same overall size, length, width, height and basic contour. The Model 62 Bolt, as modified for .25ACP, does fit the Model 56 Receiver, which by the way is Steel also. I checked with a magnet as I read that some Model 56 and 57 receivers had been made from Aluminum Alloy, my two are both magnetic (steel), one is early and without serial number, the other is later and has a serial number, the serial numbered one is the one I will fit the .25ACP barrel to.
I bought several spare bolts from "GunParts.com" (Numerich Arms) while they had them for sale, unfortunately I only got one 30 Carbine barrel before they went 'out of Stock'.
This will allow me to fit my action with either, .22LR, .30 Carbine, .25 ACP, and if I find a .256 WM barrel, with that cartridge. I could theoretically also work up a .22WMR setup for it too.
My intent is to make the barrels interchangeable in the receiver so they can, with some work be changed to the different calibers at the time the Bolt Assemblies are changed.

Now, back to the .25ACP and related projects:
My interest in the .25ACP in the Marlin was initially 'tweaked' by the realization that the .25ACP is about the same length as a .22LR round, just larger in the body diameter. A 'hitch' is that Marlin formed their .22LR magazines such that they cannot be made to hold a .25ACP without SEVERE rework and modification plus a holy redesigned mag spring would be needed as the original is a round one held in the front part of the magazine, under the nose of the .22LR round.
A surplus 'Phoenix' nominal .25ACP 10 shot magazine has a plastic piece in the front edge to reduce the length but does not properly guide the sides of the round to prevent 'jamming' due to side to side shifting of the rounds in the Mag. It looks like they tried to use a .32ACP Mag. to hold the .25ACP round without really thinking out the differences and potential function problems. I have begun modifing one by making up some thin Delrin Plastic 'shims' to narrow the Mag. inside width, now I need ot modify the follower or make a new one to fit the narrower width. The 'Phoenix' body will come close to fitting the mag well but will need the addition of a 'retention pad' to hold it in using the original Marlin Mag. lock.
Another part of the Mag. mods is to make up 'tooling' to allow driving rivets to hold the 'shims' in place.
Also, I think I will need to make Copper Tooling to back up the position where I need the 'retention pad' welded on, to prevent weld bead intrusion into the interior of the Mag.

I intend my Marlin to have a 'Rifle length' barrel, versus the 'Carbine length', and the "Lothar Walther" (LW) Blank just meets my needs at 23.4 inches. I would prefer a 25 or 28 inch blank but that is another long lead custom order and at relatively high cost for it from LW. I was lucky and my LW Blank was purchased before the price was doubled.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

02-06-2014, 10:52 AM

Chev,
My hat is off to you, for the ambitious plan you have. You certainly have done your homework and are on a solid course of action.

Mark

GARD72977

02-06-2014, 11:15 AM

Great job Crank ! I have been wanting a 25 acp for a while. I have about decided to do a short barrel contender pistol. Looks like a blast. Just don't know if I should try to get in on the group buy for the mold right now or not.

Crank

02-06-2014, 11:21 AM

Gard
Just price (the not terribly plentiful) FMJ offerings and a mould is the only way to go. Once you have a mould, you most likely would figure that the experimentation was worth it. I already threw my hat in the ring.

Mark

Crank

02-18-2014, 12:31 PM

Okay, as promised, I have my range report. We got to the range and got set up, since it was still a hot range, I decided to start shooting at the berm to check functioning. Bullets were striking the 100yd berm and took a minute or two to get there. The gun ran through several full magazines without incident, but the vertical stringing of impacts gave me the impression that velocities were all over the place and consistency was likely to be nonexistent. We got a cold range and I set a target out at 25yds and was ready to see how the little bugger worked. I sat down and lined up the cross-hairs, slowly pulled the trigger and "poof" :confused:. I pulled the gun down and begged for a cleaning rod. I gently tapped the bullet back down the barrel and tossed it up to a squib load. I loaded up again and "poof", now I was puzzled, this was a bag of mixed brands and could it be possible that I grabbed two lightly loaded rounds? I opened a brand new box of PMC and loaded up. "poof", now I was frustrated. Long story short, it seems that the cartridge ignites, pressure builds, the case seals the chamber, the bullet accelerates down the bore, pressure drops, the case loses its gas seal, and the remaining pressure sneaks around the case, leaving an insufficient amount to get the bullet out of the now dirty barrel (lots of soot). Yes, I could have cleaned the bore and retested, but I neglected to bring any .25 cal. cleaning gear. So, what it comes down to, is I need to load up some energetic ammo and cut the barrel back, so the bullet can at least fall out of the barrel:roll: LOL. I feel confident that this will work, but the factory loaded .25ACP just doesn't have enough energy to use 23" worth of barrel. I was hoping to at least video the gun cycling through a full magazine to prove it works, but I will have to hope that you will take my word that the first 40 rounds really worked before things went downhill. Oh well, now to start loading some "Magnum" rounds, and for those concerned about too much pressure, most all of the cases never made it off the bench due to the low bolt velocity, so I have a wide margin to work with before I over-speed the action. Hopefully Mihec will get enough orders for the .25 mould to do a run for the group buy and I can load some boolits, rather than j-words. Till our next exciting adventure!

Mark

BTW, of the three bullets that failed to exit, two stopped about 6" from the muzzle and one made it to within 1/2" of the muzzle.

Chev. William

02-18-2014, 12:45 PM

Crank,
Before you commit surgery on your barrel, What were the cartridges that DID cycle through your rifle and hit the 100 yard berm?
Also, what were the cartridges that went 'poof' and left the bullet in the bore?

Dirty or not, your rifle showed that at least one manufacturer of .25ACP is giving creditable performance in your rifle and another manufacturer is giving 'P-- P--r' performance in the same rifle.

I would recommend getting more of the "good manufacturer cartridges" and take them, the unmodified rifle, and your cleaning gear to another session at the Range before thinking of 'surgery' on the barrel.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

02-18-2014, 01:11 PM

Chev,
Unfortunately, other than the known PMC cartridge, the other two cases found their way clear of the ejection port, before I could identify the brands. The ones that cycled were every headstamp you could think of. I bought a bag of 350 rounds+ of leftovers that a gunshop had. These were all of the partial boxes that they accumulated and dumped them in a bag and sold them as a lot. All of the empty cases were "smoked" with soot and the cases showed no expansion. The bullets I drove out were also very sooty and lightly engraved. I know I saved at least one of the projos and will take a picture and post it. As for the surgery, don't get too nervous, I was half joking for now and won't do anything until I get some loads put together. As for the mixed loads that initially made it to the 100yd. berm, the difference between the hottest and the weakest, was about 2 1/2-3' vertically. They were loafing along and did not get there in any great hurry. I have a shell-holder for my Auto-prime due in this week and I will throw together some loads.

Mark

taco650

02-18-2014, 03:12 PM

Crank,

I think your idea about shortening the barrel is a good one given the cartridge your working with and an 18" barrel might "look" better on your rifle than a 23". I'll admit that it is perplexing that the stock 25 acp ammo wouldn't clear the barrel. I would think it would be more than hot enough because a 22LR would have no problem with that length barrel. The 25acp ammo must be loaded to be safe in old early 1900's vintage handguns.

Crank

02-18-2014, 03:40 PM

taco,
I have a feeling that the pressure curve of the factory powders in the .25ACP is so fast to optimize use in itty-bitty barrels, it is over before the bullet can get out of the barrel. That is why I started this thread, I was looking for ideas to pick a powder better suited for the barrel length. Such loads with slower powders would be worthless (except as flashbulbs) out of a pistol and seeing that I haven't gotten around to building a 1911 in .25ACP (just to irritate people), I don't have to worry about a short barrel load (yet!). I will be patient and hold off on amputating the barrel until more data is in.

Mark

mikeym1a

02-18-2014, 04:49 PM

I like this thread. Earlier, I stated you could get .25acp barrels through 'Track of The Wolf'. You stated you thought they were liners. I believe they were listed as liners, but what I got Was 'pistol barrel' size. Plenty of meat in that barrel. The OD is .437 and the side walls measure .095. I had thought to reline an AR-7, but those barrels are too small to reline with this. Anyway, using this from track of the wolf, if you wanted a 'long-barrel' .25acp, you could certainly make one! As to your failures, would a heavier recoil spring help any to delay the breech block? I'm no kind of gunsmith, just wondering. Great job on this effort! mikey:-D

Crank

02-18-2014, 05:15 PM

mikey,
That is great that those are thick "liners". The problem wasn't a lack of bolt velocity or inadequate bolt dwell, but a lack of an adequate pressure curve. This led to the bullet being stopped by the friction of the barrel. As I said, the first warmed over loads will be coming along soon, that will allow me to dial this little guy in. I am more of an engineer at heart, so I study the mechanical interrelation of what makes things "tick". If, as a side bonus, this little center-fire happens to be accurate and suitable as a critter-gitter, all the better. I became a gunsmith 25 years ago, simply because I was too cheap to pay someone else to create these hare-brained ideas. I also have a deep seated desire to irritate "rational" people with my irrational projects. Right now, I have been looking for a S&W K-frame to build a .327 Federal on, I don't need the velocity (but it's nice if I need it) but out of the fact that all of the full size .32 caliber double action revolvers have ceased to exist. I am not against a 32-20, but I really don't want to mess with a pre-war Hand Ejector and the few post war guns in .32S&W Long or .32H&R are priced obscenely. Right now a S&W 64 or 67 would be my dream donor, but it seems like all of the K-frames have gone into the witness protection program, once they found out I was looking. Do you have another donor rifle in mind other than the AR-7? There are also ways to still alter even that barrel, but making a center-fire bolt or converting one might be a wee bit of a challenge. I will gladly pass on any info that may help you.

Mark

Chev. William

02-18-2014, 05:31 PM

I am unfamiliar with the barrel shape of the AR-7 so this may be 'off the wall'; however, could you add diameter to the 'breech end of the 'liner' by using a piece of heavy wall alloy Steel tubing and 'silver soldering' it on the outside of the liner,then machining the combination to fit the AR-7 action?

Just a Thought.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

taco650

02-18-2014, 09:00 PM

Sounds like the mid-speed powders are where you need to focus but I think you already know this.

I too have enjoyed this thread. Its nice to read about somebody who wants to try something a little "out there" and has the skills to make it work.

Catshooter

02-18-2014, 11:56 PM

Very interesting Crank.

You say the bullets were lightly engraved. Have you measured your bore? What do the bullets measure?

Assuming that the bullets measure out correctly could be a mistake. I've pulled old Remington 45 Auto Rim 230 grain lead bullets and they measured .448. No wonder they leaded.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Cat

Crank

02-19-2014, 11:40 AM

taco,
Awwww, you're making me blush! I have to admit the concept was not mine to lay claim to. About 25yrs. ago, I ran into an older gent that had a Remington 16 that he claimed was converted to .25 and that it worked. I never was able to learn any details of who/when/how it was done, but the idea has nagged at me for years to build it. I studied the Remington 16 and even though it looked viable, it was never a very rugged action so it was not a top pick. The 1903, on the other hand, is rugged and proven, making it an ideal platform. There are plenty of bolt and pump actions that could have worked, but I wanted a semi-auto. I will most likely be loading the first batch with some 35gr. GDHP's that I have. I will much rather load some cast, once I get a suitable mould. I have some likely suspects for powders and will share my results as they are tested.

Cat,
I neglected to measure the factory bullets, to see if they are undersize. I know the bore is correct, it is a .243 bore with a .251 groove depth. I might get a chance to look things over tonight.

Mark

Chev. William

02-19-2014, 10:09 PM

Crank,
Look up "Carolina Cast Bullets" on the internet, then look at their listing for "Ranch Dog" .25ACP bullets.
The one they make casts to about .255 so would work in your bore, as well as the 'oversize' Tarus pistol Bore (they cut their barrels with "windage" around a jacketed bullet).
Best Regards,
Chev.William

ajjohns

02-20-2014, 08:46 AM

Man I'd love one of these. Can you build me one? Jk, but looks like a lot of fun for sure.

Crank

02-20-2014, 12:03 PM

Chev,
I finally was able to access the site for Carolina Cast Bullets, I sent an e-mail inquiring how best to order. I did find that bullet that I recovered, I stand corrected, the engraving of the rifling appears full depth. When measured at its largest diameter, it came right at .250". I did not clean it and will take a picture at some point and post it. If the unsized bullets fit into a case and chamber, I will try using them as cast, but I think my chamber dimensions are fairly snug so they may not work. I may be using those 35gr. j-words for a bit.

ajjohns,
The only trick to making this work, is converting the breechblock to center-fire. The barrel and chambering is just like any other rifle. Somehow, I don't see a huge market for conversions on the horizon.

Mark

ajjohns

02-20-2014, 02:23 PM

Well I'd sure like one for the area I live. Besides a reloadable round like that would be perfect and cheap. I can see the conversion of rim to center would be a little work, what about the magazine tube? As you referred earlier about yourself, I'm kinda one of "those" guys too. And a little auto like this has more flair than a single shot or bolt action.

Crank

02-20-2014, 02:48 PM

ajjohns,
I did not have to alter the tube or the feed mechanism, that may change if the bullet profile of other designs intrudes and catches the bolt, but zero issues so far. The machine work on the bolt took me less than two hours and after doing it once, I could probably give you some pointers to keep it simpler. I cheated and was too lazy to make a new firing pin, so I forged the original to the desired shape and re-hardened it. It's not anything fancy, but it works. Options for a barrel or liner are the only hurdle to make the decision on. One other option that exists, but is no cheaper, would be to have the barrel re-bored to .25. I had a Low Wall with a ruined 32-20 barrel, re-bored to .389 bore/.400 groove with a 1:16 twist and chambered it to 38-40. So I have had that done but it still set me back around $250 just for the re-bore, then there was the cost of the reamer rental on top of that. Unfortunately, the 1903's that are out there, everyone thinks they are gold, making the cost of the base rifle fairly high. A less costly donor, could be something chambered for .22 WRF or Magnum, but I never researched that option. The whole key to this will be to see if the little bugger will shoot with reasonable accuracy, just because it functions isn't worth diddly if it randomly flings slugs in the vicinity of the target. I don't expect MOA accuracy, but I do expect Minute O' Bunny! Like I said earlier, I am not trying to create some Magnum powerhouse, I just want .22LR HV (1250fps) ballistics in a reloadable cartridge, if it turns out there is room for a little more power without overtaxing the design, all the better.

Mark

ajjohns

02-20-2014, 03:31 PM

Good input. Keeping old factory markings on a barrel are cool but a new barrel is fine also considering costs. Yes 1903s are expensive, and I don't have one either but? Maybe one day. I just wanna keep things like this in mind in case something were to come up somewhere. What about this being done in an action like an old pump? I have a few of those laying around. Savage model 29 work? And it being 25acp, that's all the cartridge I need for walk about in the woods. 22 shooting is always enjoyable till you go and buy ammo these days. And I have all the other more powerful rounds I need. Well, for now anyway. Thanks again Mark.

Crank

02-20-2014, 04:55 PM

ajjohns

02-20-2014, 05:15 PM

Have a couple decades in the use of machine/fabricating equipment. I totally agree with trying to find the easiest and best/safest way about modifications. That doesn't always happen that way! I admire your experience with finding the measurements of these certain firearms and rounds to match, that takes time too. Thanks. I'm just gonna have to keep my eyes and ears open and see if I can figure something out for a good platform to try something like this. I have a Ruger 7722 mag but the rotary magazine there would obviously be a problem. And surely not the slick lines of the auto you're using. I'll just just have to keep checking this thread and see your outcome!

Crank

02-20-2014, 05:30 PM

That is an easy one! You have a slip fit barrel and a ton of room to hide any kind of magazine in a dummy block. Try gutting a standard 10/22 .22LR magazine and see if you could open it up to accept the .25ACP and then you also could get a 77/22 trigger guard for a .22LR to make it work. Altering the bolt shouldn't pose too much trouble due to the fact that the bolt head is separate and quite massive (for its caliber). Since you already have the rifle, drop a few bucks on a cheap factory 10/22 magazine and see what havoc you can wreak with a Dremel tool, if it goes south, you aren't out much money. However, if the magazine behaves itself, then look at modifying the bolt head and firing pin. After that, a barrel is a cake-walk. Shame on you, now I will have to pester my friend with his 77/22's to do some checking!

Mark

taco650

02-20-2014, 10:35 PM

Chev. William

02-20-2014, 11:22 PM

ajjohns,
The reason I suggest a .22WRF or .22Magnum is that the case rim diameter is only about .005" smaller than a .25ACP. Depending on the size of a tube magazine's, inner tube diameter, it could feed that way after altering the feed mechanism to handle the shorter cartridge. A rifle set up for .22LR would most likely bind up a tube mag. and altering a box magazine would be too much work. Chev. Williams has the right idea for a box magazine conversion using a donor magazine from a .25ACP pistol. The key behind any idea like this, is to make sure that the bolt can be altered without requiring extensive re-engineering or complicated machining operations. I may create a lot of my own headaches with stuff like this, but I always try to visualize every alteration in my head before I make the first cut or weld to make sure that it can be accomplished without having to divide by zero or take up voodoo. If you own, or have access to machine equipment (and a basic knowledge), nothing I did is rocket science. I frequently fabricate my own parts when they don't exist, but any time I can alter a readily available component, I will always look to the simplest solution. My suggestion would be to find a friend that has a Winchester 1890 (in WRF) or a Marlin 25 (in WMR) and see how well the case fits the bolt face, then look at how difficult it woud be to relocate the firing pin. If that looks like it would work, then consider the feeding portion of the swap. The pump could use an altered .22LR lifter to match the shorter shell and the bolt gun could use a suitable pistol magazine. I am not saying either one is a good choice since I never did any research, but they might be the future of your next build. IIRC the bolt on a Savage 29 is very narrow and would be difficult to alter easily. I will be glad to pass on any thoughts or suggestions if you decide to progress with this.

Mark

RE: Winchester 1890; There are successor models to this rifle, the 1906 and , I believe, the 1962 or 62 are all similar mechanisms, tube fed and there is a Winchester part that would make the lifter mods easy, it is a lifter assembly for one that was rated for the .22 S, L, or LR as that has the variable length cartridge stop setup to allow feeding various lengths of cartridge through it interchangeably. I have a 1890 that is fitted with it and 'digests' 22WRF and 22WMR interchangeably. It has a chamber that was lengthened to take the 22WMR round. It gives me the choice of 'fodder' for it.
You will probably need to open up the Cartridge bore in the lifter if you set it up for .25ACP. Also, the 1890 Bolt has a 'vertical channel' cut to take the RF rim with the extractor in the bolt so it kicks the empty upward.
The Good part of the design, at least in mine, is the two 'robust' lugs that lock the bolt which go all the way through the action side. The bolt face lifts on operation. yes you will need to rework the firing pin and its hole in the bolt face, but that should not be a major challenge.
The very earliest 1890s had narrower lugs that do not come through the side of the frame.
I would suggest a new barrel rather than trying to rebore the 1890 as the early ones are BP Materials rather than 'Nitro Proof' Steel. The later ones and the 1906s should be of the better strength steels, and of course the 62 is definitely modern steel.
I hope this helps,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: Ebay generally has some 1890/1906 parts on Auction. You might also try Guns America and gun Broker for them. Chev. William

ajjohns

02-21-2014, 08:57 AM

Chev. William

02-21-2014, 01:47 PM

Further RE: the 1890/1906/62 Winchester cartridge lifter. I found out the hard way that the Cartridge lifter does not take kindly to welding, it looses all useful strength and bends in use. I have no idea what alloy Steel was used nor what heat treatment Winchester employed in their manufacture at the time so cannot duplicate it.
My lifter that adjusts for cartridge length only required disassembly, careful boring to enlarge it for the rim diameter and cartridge length, and reassembly with no welding or heating involved. this one is working quite well in my 1890.

Best Regards,
Chev. Wiliam

ajjohns

02-24-2014, 01:00 PM

Well I checked out my 7722 mag this weekend. Looks like a guy could convert it fairly easy. Since I do like it as a 22 mag also, I might have to see if I can do it in such a way that I can use two firing pins. Rim and center fire. Like the old Marlin 91 and 2's in 32 Colt rim and center. I'll check around for what's out there for clips, make a dummy magazine that fits the rifle and see how it goes.

Crank

02-24-2014, 01:56 PM

ajjohns,
I talked to my buddy and he will bring a bolt by, along with a 10/22 magazine. I want to see if the rotor from the magnum magazine can be altered to work in the .22LR body. This is because the larger case diameter will reduce capacity and I want to avoid crowding. I will look closely at what options you have for altering the bolt. The convertible firing pin idea might work, but I would rather have interchangeable bolt heads dedicated to CF/RF respectively. This could make for a very interesting project.

Mark

ajjohns

02-24-2014, 02:19 PM

I didn't get to measuring anything with the magazine. The block itself looks easy to duplicate in another material and maybe use some kind of clip from a pistol inside of it. But being flush on the bottom is awful nice. In all honesty I don't really need more than five rounds loaded. The stock mag may have to come into work and played with abit. Your comment of just getting my hands on another bolt or bolt head sounds like an easier route and keeping the stock one left alone. Who knows, maybe if the gun gets converted to 25acp I may not go back to 22 wmr?

Crank

02-24-2014, 02:30 PM

On the lighter side. I was really hoping that my shellholder would show up over the weekend:( (no joy). That way I can get some rounds put together along the lines of what this thread was all about:grin:. I am still looking for any kind of mold and never heard back from Carolina Cast Bullets, I will try giving them a call today if I get a chance.

Mar

Crank

03-12-2014, 10:29 AM

Sorry for the lack of input, I got my shellholder and have put together some test loads, but opportunity has not given me a chance to get to the range. I did order some cast boolits from Carolina Cast, so they should get here in a couple of weeks. I will not discuss my test loads until I know that they have the potential to work and be safe, but I will share after I get some down range. One of the forum members was kind enough to offer some boolits for my testing and I just want to express my appreciation to all the forum members for their support in this oddball endeavor. The components for my next project are here and the "donor" is being shipped. This one will be legitimately worthy of the handgun section. I am going to convert a S&W 64-7 to .327 Federal since S&W never bothered to build a K-frame in .327 and Ruger dropped the GP-100 already. I will try to document that build a bit better than this one.

Mark

Chev. William

03-12-2014, 02:08 PM

The Revolver conversion sounds like the owner will have a firearm the can shoot many varieties of loads through ranging from .32 S&W through the H&R Magnum and on to the .327 Federal Magnum, A truly "Catholic" diet.

Chuckling, and looking forward to progress reports,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

03-12-2014, 02:32 PM

Chev,
You are a laudable supporter of my ego and a great source of information from your previous posts. I have run with some of the extensive data that you provided and I am itching to see what works. This revolver project is merely the scratching of an "itch" that stems from a love of .32's going back almost 30 years. I will be waiting to hear more about your endeavors when you start putting them together, then I can be your cheering section;-).

Mark

Crank

03-22-2014, 01:47 PM

Finally got to the range!:-D
I brought three test loads. The first was 1.6gr. of Unique behind a Speer 35gr. GDHP. Accuracy was odd, it looks like two groups, but it isn't. Cycling was marginal with three cases failing to clear the action. Report was minimal and I swear I saw several of the bullets in flight. Primers showed no change other than firing pin impact.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/25ACP/20140322_100210_zps10ae543e.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/25ACP/20140322_100210_zps10ae543e.jpg.html)

Second load was 1.3gr. of AA-5 behind the same bullet. Accuracy was much more consistent, but not taking me to a Palma match. I was not disappointed and feel that there is room for improvement. Cycling was 100%, but not too fast and feel that a power increase is within safe limits. Primer almost starting to look like a normal fired primer with some change in shape towards the edges, but nothing close to a flattened appearance.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/25ACP/20140322_100404_zpsc8f821c1.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/25ACP/20140322_100404_zpsc8f821c1.jpg.html)

Third load was 2.2gr of IMR4227. No results because I fired two rounds and neither bullet made it more than 8-10" down the barrel. That was my stopping point.
All of the cases were primed with CCI (old Cascade packaging) Magnum Pistol primers, soot was observed on the cases, but more left on the ones loaded with AA-5. I am looking forward to my bullets from Carolina Cast to get here, I am hoping that the additional weight and softer composition will help accuracy. Now I can worry about loading some more ammo that works and spend some time on my .327 project this weekend (see: .327 Conversion). Thanks to all for being patient!:bigsmyl2:

Mark

Chev. William

03-22-2014, 03:39 PM

Crank,
The Unique and AA5 loads behind 45 grain bullets seem to be too weak to expand the case enough to seal your chamber. The IMR4227 also showed poor results with your rifle (but how did the two cases look?).
From what i remember form your earlier posts, you have a LW barrel with an overall lenght of 22.5", which sound like you cut off some from a 23.4" Blank Barrel, is that correct?
Do you know what the actual Chamber dimensions as cut are?
Do you know the actual Bore adn Groove dimensions of the barrel (have you slugged it)?
IF you try a charge of Titegroup (1.51grains) Behind a 50 Grain bullet, I believe you will get an exit velocity of about 1240 to 1250fps, a peak Pressure of about 24,400 to 24,450psi and a Muzzle exit pressure of about 277psi. These are from a QL run using 23.4" as the barrel length (breech face to muzzle) .612" case length and .905" cartridge overall length. Estimated 100% powder burnt at time of exit.

Another QL run using the same case, bullet, cartridge and barrel lengths but substituting 1.64 grains of Bullseye yields 24,700 to 24,750psi peak chamber pressure, 1340 to 1350fps Muzzle velocity, and about 400 to 420psi muzzle Exit Pressure. Estimated 96% powder burnt at time of exit.

If I assume 25fps per inch of barrel deduction from the calculation 23.4" to your 22.5" barrel, say round off to 1" difference in length, that would still leave a velocity of around 1300fps MV but would give somewhat higher MEP due to less expansion. Also the Burn percentage will be lower due to the shorter barrel.

I believe the calculated pressures are still reasonable for your rifle but carefully review its strengths and mechanism before using the above load data, you could probably reduce them by 10% for a possible starting load.
I tried looking for ".327 Conversion" on Cast Boolits Forums but did not find it. Have you started the Thread yet?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: Unique 1.5 Grain and 35 grain bullet through a 22.5" barrel QL calculates:
Max peak pressure at 10597psi, MV at 1198fps, MEP at 326psi, and 77% burn.
50 grain bullet with the same charge yields:
Max peak pressure 14246psi, MV at 1131fps, MEP at 368psi, adn 90% burn.

Unique 1.6 gr with the same measures:
Max Peak pressure 12066psi, MV at 1272fps, MEP at 357psi, and 80% burn.
50 grain bullet with the same charge yields:
Max peak pressure 16335psi, MV at 1193fps, MEP at 394psi, and 93% burn.

Since your rifle was originally set up for 22 LR which are currently rated around 24000psi peak pressure, the loads should be reviewed carefully.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

03-22-2014, 04:09 PM

Chev,
Here is the link: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?235235-Converting-a-S-amp-W-64-7-to-327-Federal

These were 35gr. j-words, the AA-5 loads sounded like they were at the threshold of super-sonic, but the Unique was like a pellet gun for velocity. I am planning to try and find a sweet spot for the AA-5, since it is such an easy to measure powder. I have not slugged the barrel, but LW shows .243 bore with a .250 groove. I can measure the two bullets I pushed out to be sure. The cases from the 4227 loads looked unchanged except for the primer impact. As for the chamber dimensions, I simply ordered a stock design from PTG and saw no reason to check it for exact final dimensions. Part of what I think skews the allowable pressure is that the .25 case is so much thicker than a rimfire case and even though the numbers are the same as a .22, it is far more resistant to expansion. By loading above SAAMI spec., I may get better sealing along with reduced bolt thrust due to chamber friction. I will keep playing with this and I have another powder in my collection that I might explore.

Mark

Crank

03-22-2014, 06:44 PM

Chev,
for some reason, I didn't see the edit when I posted. I can tell you with certainty that those Unique loads were moving along like a pellet rifle and nowhere near 1000fps. It reminded me of shooting a .45 at those distances, in respect to, discharge to impact lag time. Not that it matters much, but this rifle was originally chambered for the .22 Winchester Auto which sent a 45gr. bullet out at 1050fps. I have fired one of these rifles in the past with factory ammo and they were much snappier. The AA-5 load was similar, but still not as brisk. This is one of those times when actual experimentation is the only certain way to validate theory. I promise to be prudent with my approach and I have been doing this for quite a while, with far more powerful obsolete cartridges that lack any loading data.

Here is one that I had to make and create a load for, the page it's on is not an exact match, but it is the closest I found for my Dreyse sporting rifle.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/25ACP/20131210_192512_zps2ef516f7.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/25ACP/20131210_192512_zps2ef516f7.jpg.html)

That thing is awesome to shoot and danged if it isn't too bad for accuracy.

Mark

Chev. William

03-22-2014, 09:26 PM

Crank,
since you say the Unique loads were moving 'along like a pellet rifle' and your cases were not sealing and the accuracy was low, that would indicate to me that you do need to verify the barrel and chamber dimensions before pushing any heavy loads through your rifle. The .22 Winchester Auto. cartridge does not have a SAAMI specification according to their website but the .22LR and .22WMR both are listed with pressure limits of 24,000psi so unless I find out differently I would assume that is what applies to this Rimfire cartridge (original Action chambering) also. As the pressure limit for the .25ACP (CIP Limit), for a Pistol, is 14,700psi your trial loads still seem well within the safe starting range for load development. Do you have a chronograph available to measure velocity?
I have not checked, but perhaps SAAMI has by now updated their pressure limits to Piezio psi from CUP for the .25ACP.
Bestn Regards,
Chev. William

John Boy

03-22-2014, 09:52 PM

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/shaw4570/20140131_163026_zps30da5075.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/shaw4570/media/20140131_163026_zps30da5075.jpg.html)

Crank, you may want to consider working on the bolt hole of the 1903. It's too large for the firing pin and pin is severely off center. Even more evident with the primer hits on the cases you posted with the targets

Crank

03-22-2014, 10:37 PM

John,
It's actually the other way around. The modified (forged by me crudely:oops:) firing pin is odd shaped and too skinny which makes a cockeyed indent. I was just too lazy to make one from scratch at that time. That is why you see the off center strike. The firing pin hole was center punched to the bore and the hole drilled in the milling machine. I am guilty of a hack job in regards to the firing pin. It worked and hasn't broken, so it is one of those 'round tuit things. If you look carefully you can see that the tip of the pin is hiding off to one corner. I was in a rush to do it and used the de-burring wheel to take off material until the pin moved freely in the breech block, re-tempered it and haven't monkeyed with it since.

Chev,
I apologize for the confusion, when I said about SAAMI spec., I had it in my head that .25ACP was the same. So likely, I want to get the .25 up to .22LR spec., as the case is certainly strong enough and the primers are for far above that. I need to re-emphasize that magnum power is not my goal. I want to have a ballistic equal to a .22 in a reloadable case. I have a chronograph that I have never used, but a friend of mine has one that he uses constantly, so either way I will have access to one. As for the chamber, factory rounds fit in with minimal play (far tighter than a normal factory chamber) and all of the used cases I got would not fit at all until sized, so an oversize chamber is not a concern of mine. I am a results kind of guy, so forgive me if I am not as scientific in my approach. I am not reckless, but basing my decisions of a few decades of past experiences.
Thanks again for the input.

Mark

Chev. William

03-22-2014, 11:06 PM

Crank,
OK, I agree it sounds like your chamber is good. Try loading some 50 grain bullets and try it again when you can.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

35remington

03-24-2014, 07:25 PM

I must say....that certainly does show the folly of using powders like 4227, 2400, AA #9, W296, etc. in the tiny 25 case. Better stick to the faster pistol powders. What's suitable for the 25 ACP pistol is suitable for the rifle, and barrel length need not apply. The case volume relative to bullet diameter is just too small to use slow powders.

Crank

03-24-2014, 07:57 PM

35remington,
Respectfully, what makes you call IMR4227 a folly? Last time I checked, it is a Magnum pistol powder that works great in straight-walled cases. It is the go to powder for my 4 Winchester Self Loaders, in all four calibers. I do not profess to be a knowledgeable wizard with powders and burn rates, so that is why this thread was started. At this point, anything is fair game for experimentation.

Mark

35remington

03-24-2014, 08:58 PM

It was a folly in the sense that it's not a normal selection for 25 ACP pistols.....so it's not relevant in rifles, either. The 25 ACP isn't a magnum pistol and its working pressures are far below those at which 4227 works efficiently. Capacity is so low that charges of 4227 that are possible to get in the case don't possess the capability of getting to those pressures due to an expansion ratio ill suited for them.

Your WSL cartridges have a lot more room for powder than the 25 ACP behind their bullets and have working pressures in the range that 4227 was meant to handle. It's pressure and room behind the bullet that are most relevant.

You might want to forget the ones I've mentioned to save yourself some time and hammering more bullets out of the barrel, but hey, it's your experiment and you don't have to listen to me. Going to a rifle length barrel does not vault one's powder choices into an entirely different class of powders for a cartridge. A 44 magnum, for example, is best used with the same powder as used in pistols when rifle length barrels are substituted.

Same for the 25 ACP in a rifle. You just can't get enough slow powder in the case to make any worthwhile velocity increase, and actually velocity will be sub par. Pressure is the other half of velocity, not just the speed of the powder. If the pressure doesn't get there, neither will velocity.

In an earlier post, I did say the slow burning thing can be carried too far. The 25 ACP is by no means suited for the slow pistol powders like 2400 and 4227 and W296 and it will not obtain its best velocities with them even in a rifle length barrel. You might want to compromise and stay within the slower end of the fast powder range like Universal or Power Pistol, but not much slower. I guarantee that will be a whole lot more productive than using 4227 or 2400.

Letting any powder be fair game would be wasting too much time. There is such a thing as too slow in cases with very limited powder capacity. You've found that out already.

Chev. William

03-24-2014, 09:43 PM

Just for Giggles, I tried QL with Hodgdon H4227 powder in the .25ACP/6.35 Browning using the .251, 50, Lapua FMJ-RN bullet (all as presented in QL).
A 2.37 grain charge yields a calculated 100.5% Fill, 6685psi Max pressure, 685fps MV, 123psi MEP, and 23.0% burn.
If Crank would be so kind as to try one or two rounds loaded to somewhat lower charge weights to work up to this slightly compressed load and Post the MV measurements for each charge tried maybe we can put this discussion back into the realm of useful powders and loads to squeeze out the best Accuracy commensurate with the cartridge inherent limits in his rifle.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

35remington

03-24-2014, 10:07 PM

Don't bother to work up to it if you're going to waste more time. Start at max projected because the predicted pressure is only 6685 psi. Load one because you don't want to disassemble the other.

If you're going to use Quckload, search for those powder combinations that produce 15,000 to 20,000 psi with 100 percent loading density. If you want to exceed the SAAMI spec for the 25 ACP somewhat more caution is advised with long barrel dwell times in blowback actions. But then again, you don't have the case capacity to get pressures very high and hold them there very long, so you're probably never going to swell a case head with slow powder, just overloads of very fast powder if such is possible. Don't go too far in a blowback, because the case head moves rearward when the bullet is still in the barrel.

Obviously, 4227 ain't it, and the low pressure at 100 plus percent case fill with the heaviest bullet normally used in a 25 ACP is a big, big clue. The 35 hollowpoint doesn't have a chance in hades if the 50 doesn't generate much pressure with 100 percent case fill.

Bullet movement means the pressure is relieved due to the small case capacity faster than the pressure can build up.....so it never gets very high. Squibby loads result with very slow powders, especially with lightweight bullets. Even "heavy" 50 grain bullets require fast powders for highest speed in this cartridge.

Some of the candidate slow end pistol powders have too much bulk, like Blue Dot. Slowest possible would be comparable speed to Blue Dot, but denser, and even then no real increase in velocity will probably be obtainable over, say, Universal or Power Pistol

Look for high density via Lee's VMD charts.

Crank

03-24-2014, 11:19 PM

35remington,
Superb explanation! I apologize if I sounded defensive, I was puzzled by your use of the word folly. My issue is an extremely limited gene pool of available powders, not to say I can't obtain something, but purchasing multiple powders for something as odd as this application seems frustrating. I have a couple of other possible candidates, but I will need to get a break to sit down and focus on the next attempt. Accuracy was not in the tackdriver category, but the AA-5 shows promise, so that one stays in the running to continue experimentation.

Chev,
I will concede that IMR4227 looks like a dead end. Getting to the range is a PITA, so I need to optimize my outings. If I get a chance to make a few test loads for posterity, I will do it, but they will take a back seat for now.

Mark

35remington

03-25-2014, 12:22 AM

Crank, you never did sound defensive.....just a guy wanting an explanation.

I don't know that you need to purchase multiple powders. You can narrow it down some by getting a little data from Quickload, if Chev wants to provide it, and then go from there. The slow end of suitable powders would be found where 100 percent or better loading density starts dropping off in pressure below your planned peak. Say, where you couldn't get 15,000 psi any more, or whatever your planned peak psi is. Since blowback movement of the bolt is proportional to the weight and velocity of your bullet, as opposed to that of your original rimfire the gun was intended for, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to avoid what is possible and go for what is more prudent in terms of safety and not overdriving the gun.

Excessive breech opening is to be avoided, as is excessive bolt velocity. I would think that 1100 fps would be plenty with a 50 grain bullet and really cannot see where more speed would help with the advantage in killing power of the larger diameter bullet going to the 25 already at such a speed. Such a velocity would be within hailing distance of the original load, and the idea is not to kill the gun early, but rather duplicate the 22 or better it. A 50 at 1100 will do this. If RD would still somehow have one of his flatpoint 25 cast bullets available or if you could get Swede Nelson of NOE or some other custom maker to offer the design (he offers RD moulds now.....don't know about the 25 design for the 25 Auto though) you would be in tall cotton.

I would find a powder that gets this velocity and meters well in the small charges and call it good. If I had Bullseye, Universal, maybe Power Pistol or your AA #5 that would be a good enough selection that I would let accuracy and "close enough" velocities make the decision on what to use.

Since tiny charges of large flake powders meter poorly in a lot of measures and I hate to weigh every charge, I'd go after a fast to medium fast speed fairly dense powder of small granulation that meters well. Since double charges won't be a problem there may not be such a thing as "too dense."

Why not try book charges of Bullseye or some other good metering, dense powder and see where they land you. I know this may not get everything the cartridge may give, but you ought to consider what the rifle was designed for and come to some reasonable approximation of that.

I've shot an awful lot of small game with flatpointed 25 caliber bullets at speeds like this. They kill very well, and are a step above the .22.

Chev. William

03-25-2014, 12:41 PM

Crank,
What powders do you have on hand at the moment?
If you would like, I will try running QL calculations on those powders presently in your inventory at near 100% fill to see what the Theoretical Results are.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

35remington

03-25-2014, 09:27 PM

Just for grins, and to find the slowest practicable powder more as an exercise than anything else, find the powder that at 100 percent load density is the slowest that produces 15,000 psi at said load density. A hint is to look for the heaviest charge weight at said pressure as well. You know you've reached it when a still slower powder with a heavier charge weight does not reach the desired 15,000 psi.

I'll still advance the notion that hotrodding or trying to find maximum speed in a rifle that was originally a blowback operated rimfire is not a good idea. It's still the rifle it was before and it's still blowback operated. A rifle of this type is the worst imaginable in terms of using it for deliberate higher pressure loads. Keep the pressures down to standard 25 ACP levels at least for starters. More is not better. Most definitely the energy of the bullet should approximate that used to drive the rifle in when it was chambered for a rimfire to keep bolt velocity down.

Some of the faster high density powders may not allow 100 percent fill before the SAAMI max for 25 ACP is reached.

35remington

03-25-2014, 09:41 PM

Another suggestion regarding speed......like the long rifle, it may be advisable to keep the velocity in the 1050-1080 fps range at the muzzle with a 50 grain bullet to try to mimic the "target 22 long rifle effect" wherein the slower bullet has less wind drift and better accuracy than rounds in the 1200 plus fps range. Such a velocity has a trajectory flat enough to be useable to about 60 yards on tree squirrels with a dead center hold and only mild rise above line of sight at midrange, making it very useful.

This would get about 122 to 129 foot pounds, just what is needed in terms of operating the gun correctly.

Crank

03-25-2014, 09:43 PM

35remington,
I think I understand what you are saying about powders and will try to wrap my head around the concept. As for hotrodding, that isn't the goal, I want to duplicate the cycling and reliability of the .22. If that means loading a .25 hotter than what works in a Browning Baby or a Raven, I won't lose a lick of sleep over it since I don't own a pistol in that caliber to confuse loadings. Dang! you are fast, I just saw that you posted while I was pecking this out.

Mark

35remington

03-25-2014, 09:58 PM

And....if this is a 1903, originally chambered for the .22 Winchester Automatic, ballistics are a 45 grain bullet at around 1050 fps, for 111 foot pounds. Another reason not to run the 25 too fast.

You won't have to run the 25 hot to cycle or hotter than what works in a BB or a Raven. You've got potentially more bullet weight and energy already. Standard 25 Auto pressures will function the gun easily.

Hopefully you've got a candidate cast bullet lined up that has a flatpoint on it yet with enough ogive for smooth feeding.

Crank

03-25-2014, 10:02 PM

Read the part about fresh factory ammo, not leaving the barrel LOL

35remington

03-25-2014, 10:28 PM

That's known as a missing powder charge, and that's entirely different from underloading. Again, you don't have to load the 25 hot to function your gun. You've already proven that with the 35 grain bullet and loads of a projected 14,000 psi or so.

Crank

03-25-2014, 10:41 PM

35remington,
When I went to the range with the mixed bag, I got about 40 rounds that exited the gun, but I bought one fresh box of PMC, just in case and that one got the bullet to within 1/2" of the muzzle. The other two that didn't exit were from the mixed bag and got to within 6" of the muzzle. That outperformed the IMR4227 loads and I know they had powder, those rounds went about 6-8" from the chamber. I also mentioned that the first rounds out of the gun had a vertical spread upwards of 3 feet+ at 100yds and the cases were barely clearing the gun. The travel time to the 100yd berm was like that of a pellet rifle.

Mark

35remington

03-26-2014, 12:06 AM

Bore drag is your enemy. In your earlier reference i thought you were talking about a pistol not functioning, not your rifle. FMJ rounds have far greater friction than cast bullets and powders may be used that are as quicker or quicker than Bullseye. In addition, operating pressures in 25 ACP are low. Add it all up and you get stuck bullets.

Things change when a cast lead bullet is substituted. Bore drag and friction are way, way less, and a load that sticks a FMJ in the barrel may get quite good velocities with a cast bullet, even with an otherwise identical quick powder. Powders for .22's also tend to be slower burning than those used in the 25 Auto, but pressure plays its role as well, and high pressure gets better velocity than low pressure and won't stick bullets even if the powder is quick.

All of this should definitely not prevent you from trying something like Bullseye with a lubricated cast lead bullet. Here powder quickness is no real handicap even in a fairly long barrel due to the ease of pushing a bullet down the barrel. High bullet friction and low pressures are definite handicaps to getting a bullet out the barrel. Fast powder speed has advantages in making a more quiet report. The soft lead bullet is likely easier on what is probably fairly soft barrel steel in your Winchester 03. If it says "nickel steel" though it's pretty hard.

Just for giggles lube the PMC bullets, the part sticking out of the case, with Lee Liquid Alox and let it dry. I bet few to none stick then. But by now you might be darn tired of pushing stuck bullets out of barrels.

I'll reiterate that standard 25 Auto pressures will function the gun easily. You've just got to use the right bullet. A FMJ with a tiny low pressure powder charge won't cut in in terms of getting the bullet out the barrel.

35remington

03-26-2014, 12:28 AM

Another question.....how deep is the rifling in your barrel? How many lands? How wide are they?

45 ACP revolvers supposedly were fitted with shallow rifled barrels to prevent the FMJ bullets from sticking, even in pistol length barrels. Rifling depth on 45 ACP revolvers is much less than on my old five screw 38 and 32 Smith and Wesson revolvers, which have deep, wide land rifling expressly intended to be used with, predominantly, lead bullets.

Modern revolvers have much narrow lands than the old Smiths do, mostly because they shoot more jacketed bullets these days and sticking bullets at low 38 Special pressures can be a problem if the lands displace a lot of metal on jacketed bullets.

Chev. William

03-26-2014, 01:27 AM

After reading the last few posts (page 5 of this Thread) I think Stevens got their barrels Right in the 1890s;
The Examples I have all have narrow lands/wide grooves which show up as wide spaced narrow slots on the Lead Slugs I have driven through them. This gave adequate spin to the lead bullets used at the time and made cleaning up after BP reasonable, especially with 'take down' barrel design. The 1885 Winchester barrel I have also has 'narrow lands" (just slightly wider than the Stevens ones) so it may have been 'common knowledge' in the era.

Anyway, my offer to run some QL calculations on charges of the powders that Crank has on hand at the moment still stands.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

03-27-2014, 12:51 PM

Sorry, work has kept me distracted and too tired to think about this one for the past couple of days. I will inventory what I have for powders and get those to you Chev. I am still waiting for those boolits from CCB, which would follow along with the reduced friction as 35remington mentioned. Lead will be my projectile of choice, so hopefully many of the gremlins will go away. I will hopefully be pre-occupied with my .327 barrel tonight, so this thread may take a back seat for a couple of days.

Mark

Chev. William

03-30-2014, 01:08 AM

Today I completed reaming a "Dummy Chamber" for my .250ALRM cartridge, and the reamers worked better than I did (as an 'Amateur' unpaid gunsmith apprentice). the cartridge sample goes in snugly right up to the rim being slightly below flush with the 'breech end' which is probably correct as the rims on the samples are not at exactly .050 thick. I still need to get a 'extraction groove' cut into it so I can pull the cartridge out by the rim instead of pushing it out with a long pin.

This is a .25ACP but the case length is 1.250". I also have some .250ALS cases (1.125" long) and some .250ALR cases (1.050" long) that are part of a planned experimental testing group to see what can be done with this small diameter straight walled family of cartridges using .251" nominal bullets in .250" Groove Diameter Barrels. Lead Bullets would run around .253" to .255" for these cartridges. On the light end there are 35 grain HP bullets available, most bullets are around 50 grain and I will need to get a mold for a 65 to 69 grain bullet to explore the range further. By the way my Blank test barrel has 1:9.4 Twist according to the maker.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

04-15-2014, 05:34 PM

Crank,
On Beartooth Bullets "Shooters Forums" there are a couple of threads about .25ACP Reloading and it is noted on one of them that the Taurus Pistols have Groove Diameters at the SAAMI maximum listed dimensions, which lets Gas bypass the Jacketed bullets in Factory Loads. I wonder if your Barrel is slightly 'large' on the Groove Dimension?

I have one Stevens Barrel that has a Groove diameter of about .257" but was marked "25" as it had been "Bastardized by the previous owner, They had begun remachineing the Tenon to dimensions for a Stevens 44 receiver and since receiving it I have turned it down to fit a Stevens Favorite Receiver without further shortening the barrel (doable as the Favorite Tenon is smaller than the '44' Tenon dimensions).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

04-16-2014, 04:00 PM

Chev,
I just re-read all of the posts and I neglected to include that the slug I recovered was fully engraved all the way into the grooves, so Lothar Walther sent me the correct bore size. Sorry for the lack of input, I have been moving along with my .327 conversion and this one is in a holding pattern for load development. I finally got my boolits from CCB, but I foolishly forgot to include to have them sized, so I need to get a sizer and take care of that.

Mark

Chev. William

04-17-2014, 02:17 AM

Crank,
!. May I suggest you use a .253" size die? Also, it may be a good Idea to lube the bullets before sizing as the lube grooves are shallow an may close up if sized before lube.
2. Any progress on the list of Powders you would like me to do QL Runs about?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

04-17-2014, 10:42 AM

Chev. William

04-18-2014, 01:55 PM

RE: .25 Stevens (Long) RF capacity. It is more than a .25ACP; The .25 Stevens Short RF on the other hand is closer to the .25ACP dimensions, but was not loaded to perform as it might have to keep it at or below the 'long' performance.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

04-19-2014, 07:40 PM

Chev,
I apologize for not getting that info to you, I am at work, but will try to remember to look tonight. I do recall one powder I neglected to mention that I have, I have a keg of Titegroup that I split with a friend and forgot that I had it. I haven't even looked at the size of the grains to see if it would be user friendly. The bullets from CCB are already lightly lubed, just "as cast" at .258, so at least I can avoid that. I have an old Lyman? sizer that I have never used, so I need to drag it out to make sure of what I need to locate for a die. I am guilty of never having cast my own, so I am only now slowly gearing up for that. I just need to make sure what size will still fit in the case and allow the round to chamber, since the chamber is far from oversize.

Mark

Crank,
Hodgdon Titegroup is a possible powder for the .25ACP cartridge and I have run some trials with it in QL.
Hodgdon lists Two Loads for the .25ACP with 50 Gr FMJ bullet and employing Titegroup, they are based upon thje following basic criteria:
Winchester Case; a 1:16" twist; Federal 100M Small Pistol Match Primers; 2.00" Barrel Length; case Trim Length of .610"; Cartridge Overall length of .900".
Load #1 = 1.10gr; Velocity = 657fps; Pmax of 14,500 CUP (which does not easily convert to psi, although there is a method that gives approximate conversion estimates).
Load #2 = 1.30gr; 762fps; 17,200 CUP.

I started by inputting the Hodgdon Load #1 data into QL base data for the .25ACP (changing the case length, and COL to match then adjusting the Case Volume to get the calculated Velocity to match. This occurred at case volume of 5.000gr for Titegroup; Note that the volume adjustment 'tweaked' the MV value to match Hodgdon's without affecting the Calculated Pmax.

QL used the CIP Pmax limit of 17,405psi (piezo) and a Laupa .251", 50gr FMJ-RN Bullet of .401" length/.171" seating depth and calculated bore Cross section area of .04827 sq.in.
The #1QL of 1.10gr gave 50.9% fill; Pmax=13,470psi; MV = 657fps; MEP =4314psi; Burn = 87.2%.
Changing barrel length to 24" results in the Following:
Load #3QL 1.10gr; 50.9%; Pmax = 13470psi; MV =1023fps; MEP = 219psi; Burn =100.0%.
NOTE: the Propellant burn is now 100% AND the Muzzle Exit Pressure (MEP) is Much lower (about 1/20th of the Hodgdon load out of a 2" barrel).
Load #4QL 1.26gr; 58.8%; Pmax = 17499psi; MV =1117fps; MEP = 237psi; Burn =100.0%.
DANGER: Calculated Pressure EXCEEDS Pistol Maximum limit. DO NOT USE THIS LOAD!
Load #5QL 1.47gr; 68.1%; Pmax = 24035psi; MV =1227fps; MEP = 261psi; Burn = 100.0%.
DANGER: Calculated Pressure EXCEEDS Pistol Maximum limit. DO NOT USE THIS LOAD!
Note that this is about the typical Pmax for 22RF cartridges.
Load #6QL 2.10gr;100.4%; Pmax =58262psi; MV =1535fps; MEP = 335psi; Burn = 100.0%.
DANGER: Calculated Pressure Grossly EXCEEDS Maximum Pressure Limit. DO NOT USE THIS LOAD!
Note this is about a 'Double Charge' for the Hodgdon Titegroup recommended start load, and it still would burn 100% with a MEP below 400psi, less than 1/10 of the Hodgdon load MEP out of a 2" barrel!

These are THEORETICAL CALCULATED numbers for discussion ONLY!

From this, and some other calculation runs I have done, my personal feelings are that Titegroup is OK for Low Report and low to moderate Rifle MV cartridge loads but pressures rise faster than Velocity in this small case at 24" barrel length (this is the SAAMI Recommended Test Barrel Length for RIFLE cartridges).

Hodgdon HP-38 needs a corrected case volume of 4.760gr to match QL to Hodgdon Data.
1.84gr of HP-38 results in 100% fill and Pmax = 35300psi; MV =1380fps; MEP = 317psi; Burn = 100.0% STILL EXCEEDS Pistol MAXIMUM Pressure Limit.

Hodgdon Universal needs a corrected case volume of 4.800gr to match QL to Hodgdon Data.
1.58gr of Universal results in 99.8% fill; Pmax =20750psi; MV = 1260fps; MEP = 336psi; Burn = 99.8% STILL EXCEEDS Pistol MAXIMUM Pressure Limit.

The other Hodgdon Powder listed, "CFE-Pistol", is not listed in QL Data Base yet; so I did not runt it. There are also five 'IMR" powders listed on Hodgdon's Web Site that I have not Checked on QL.

Comments anyone?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

taco650

04-20-2014, 07:40 AM

Kinda hard to get my head wrapped around the idea that 1.26gr of powder would be too much LOL! Guess the case is smaller than I thought.

Chev. William

04-20-2014, 01:40 PM

Kinda hard to get my head wrapped around the idea that 1.26gr of powder would be too much LOL! Guess the case is smaller than I thought.

Unfortunately QL does not permit finer Charge weight numbers. The 1.26gr of Titegroup is only slightly over the pressure limit of 17,405psi at 17,499psi or about 1/2% of the limit value: BUT it IS over the Limit according to the Calculations of QL. Now if you can reliably and accurately and repeatably measure a 1.255gr charge that might get you below the pressure limit (1.25gr definitely would be just below the pressure limit), but I have no way to verify that as the best I can reasonably measure is a charge +/- 0.01gr myself.

Also, there are several powders I have checked in the past for .25ACP loads (see early posts to this Thread) that Calculated as being not suitable for the cartridge. The reasons vary, excess Pmax, lack of viable performance in a Rifle, to bulky to use in the small case, etc, etc. these powders do become useful in lengthened cases of similar diameters such as the .25 Stevens (or .250ALR, .250ALS, .250ALRM Family). Another possiblilty is to Test the .25ACP in a proper piezo or Strain Gauge instrumented RIFLE (24") Pressure Test Barrel to a higher pressure limit, say something in the 23,000psi to 27,000psi Range , the range of current .17 and .22 RF cartridges.

Testing in such a 24" long instrumented environment is beyond my personal financial range at this time in Life. Also I do not have access to such a suitable Test Facility or equipment. The best I can think to do is CAREFULLY try slightly higher successively higher pressure test loads in a Strong action Rifle and look for signs of pressure problems, such as base growth or stretching of case walls. Such trials are not conclusive as most 'excessive pressure signs' only become evident after pressures in the range of 65,000psi or higher.
In a weak Rifle action, on the other hand, excessive pressure would become Catastrophically evident too soon to be useful to the test operator involved; much to their detriment.

The Actions I have to work with range from 'weak' (Stevens 1894) to slightly stronger (Stevens 1915) to moderate (Stevens Model 44) to medium strength (Marlin Model 56/62 Levermatic) with a known pressure limit of above 40,000psi in the Marlin Levermatic as it was reliably used in 30 M1 Carbine and .256 Magnum chamberings. The Marlin is limited also in action length capacity so will be limited to future experiments with cartridge lengths less than the 30 Carbine round, and more likely closer to .25ACP or .22WMR lengths.

Would I try firing loads that calculate over the pressure limits in a 1894 or 1915 action? NO.

Would I try firing loads that calculate Below the pressure limits in a 1894 or 1915 action? Maybe, after careful work up.

Would I try firing BP full case loads .25 Caliber loads in a 1894 or 1915 action? Yes, as that is what they Originally were fired with.

I do have a quantity of .25ACP loaded with 4.5gr of Goex 3fg BP, compressed, behind a 50 gr Lead RFN Bullet waiting for my Stevens Actions to be ready. I think these BP rounds will be fun to fire at the Range. and should give performance comparable to the .25 Stevens Short original factory loads. At least post firing cleaning will be easier as the Barrels will be removable, rather than fixed as in my 1873 Winchester.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

04-25-2014, 10:46 AM

Gee, I hope I didn't "Poison" this thread with my last post, I am enjoying the interchange of information here.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

04-25-2014, 11:28 AM

Chev,
Don't worry. I have been busy and right now dealing with a gun show.

Mark

Chev. William

04-25-2014, 10:18 PM

Photo's?

taco650

04-26-2014, 05:44 AM

Crank,

I must admit I'm getting bored waiting for progress reports on this thread and the other two you've started (327 conversion, etc). I need a fix!

Chev. William

05-04-2014, 10:05 PM

This Sunday I finished expanding 200 Hornet case necks out to .250" Internal Diameter. I used my 1/2" capacity Bench Drill Press, a Machinist's Vise with a Vertical Centering Groove in one jaw, a RCBS #12 Shell Holder, and a short piece of .250" diameter Drill Rod to do the expansion.

Next will be to run them into a .25ACP Lee Carbide sizing die to reduce the body diameter down to .276" outside diameter all theh way from the case mouth to the rim.

I also have about 90 resized .32 S&W Long cases I have resized down to .32 Long Colt/.32 Long RF case diameters.

These will be turned to remove the Displaced Brass roll that forms just forward of the rim.

My purposed is to make cases for several obsolete cartridges including:
.25 Stevens Short RF
.25 Stevens Long RF
.250ALR
.250ALS
.250ALRM
.250ALC
.250ALE
.32 Extra Short RF/CF
.32 Short RF/CF
.32 Long RF/CF (several case lengths to match bullets Driving band lengths)

The 'RF' versions will be drilled/reamed to take .22 Blanks/.22 Duo-Fast blanks and also some .25 Cal and .27 Cal Ramset Blanks to use in RF unconverted rifle actions.

I already know from Experiments done by others that these "RF Adapters" work quite well and yield Bullet Velocities
comparable to original factory loaded cartridges.

I have not heard from 'jonboy' since last year so I do not know if he has had progress on his work on the .25 Stevens and Lengthened .25ACP cartridge design experiments.
The .32 development has been aided by "Ndnchf", "Uncra112", "W30wcf", and "Crank" among others on the CAS City, Cast Boolits", "ASSRA", And "Shooters Forum" Forums and Threads.
"Ranch Dog", "F1G1D", "and "Unclenick" of the Shooters Forum have also been providing experience and technical knowledge to the projects.

The Actions are waiting with my Gunsmith and eventually will be completed so that I can start firing experimental Cartridges and Loads myself.

I have on hand Roughing and finishing Chamber Reamers for the .250ALRM/.25 Stevens CF Family of designs that were made by Pacific Tool and Gauge. Since Ammoguide will not list a design until I have purchased the Reamers and I cannot submit load data until they are listed, I guess I will need to be patent until my finances allow buying the remaining sets of Reamers. I do presently have a '.22 Lija' on backorder with Midway Supply to ream the "RF Adapters" for the blanks.

In the mean time another project has had some incremental progress, my gunsmith Threaded my .45 barrel blank to fit my .30 M1 Carbine NOS Winchester Receiver and it sure did look nice to see the two temporally 'married'. It has been in the works for Two years now.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

05-04-2014, 10:36 PM

taco650

05-05-2014, 12:55 AM

Chev. William

05-05-2014, 08:39 PM

Chev,
Are you planning on your own LeMag? One of the guys I went through gunsmithing school with had one and it, like others, had a catastrophic failure. He was not injured, but that was the end of his M1. If you do it may I suggest something milder than .45 Win Mag. I have given thought to a 10MM, but a mild mannered .45 ACP would be fine.

Mark

I intend to start out with mild loads and watch for any problems, The Receiver is a NOS never issued/used Winchester Built one, so it is at least less stressed than most USGI service use Receivers.

Both Cartridges are rated for the same Pmax (40,000psi piezo) but the .45WM would exert more force on the Bolt Locking lugs at max pressure loads so I don't think I will go there.

I'm thinking of starting at loads around 16,000psi or so but that is adjustable when I do some more strength calculations on the rifle combination.

The Barrel is intended to be 26" or slightly longer, and initially it will be rigged as a Single Shot Straight Pull (no Gas Block/Cylinder fitted initially) so the action will not be 'venting' any gas for the initial development process. I also believe the M2 style Bolt (Full Round design) is both stronger and has more mass than the M1 style 'Flat' Bolt.
The Operating Slide will be a later version with the heavier junction between slide mass and the rod itself.

This is NOT a hunting Project, my body does not tolerate long hikes any more, either my ankles give out or my Bladder starts complaining, it's frustrating getting Old with disabilities.
It will be used for Target shooting (load development) and probably be relegated to "Home Defense" duty until I decide whether to again rebarrel and rechamber it to another usable cartridge.
Magazines are modified USGI ones with Delrin Plastic side shims inside to narrow the magazine and custom machined followers to fit, and will be single stack 10 round capacity.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Quiettime

05-05-2014, 10:20 PM

Crank

05-06-2014, 12:13 AM

It has been interesting but I have ignored it while creating the .327

Mark

Chev. William

05-06-2014, 01:41 AM

Just for fun, here is a compilation on the .25 Stevens Short

The .25 Stevens Short RF

The Stevens Short was developed after the .25 Stevens (Long) had been in production for over at year and had proved useful. It uses the same diameters as its predecessor but has a shorter case length.
Case Body Diameter = .276" (Cylinder)
Case Length = .515" minimum (Ammo Encyclopedia 2nd Ed.)
Case Length = .599" maximum (C.O. T. W.)
Rim Diameter = .333" (Stevens barrels for this cartridge have rim rebates of .380" diameter)
Rim Thickness = .046" (Stevens Barrel Rim Rebate measures .050" deep)
Factory load originally 4.5 to 5.0 grains Black Powder behind a 43 grain Lead Bullet yielding about 750fps. and a loaded length of .877".

.25 Stevens Short Rf can be replaced with a shortened and drilled/reamed .25ACP case or convert the Firearm to CF and use the .25ACP directly. The rim although smaller in diameter than the Stevens rim nevertheless is sufficient to allow proper head space and extraction.

.25 Stevens short CF can be made from a cut down .22 hornet case that is resized all the way to the rim to a body diameter of .276" (may be done in a Lee Carbide .25ACP sizing die by pushing the case in until the rim is against the bottom of the die. Trim the reformed Hornet to .590" minimum and .610" maximum then inside ream the case to .248"/.246" inside diameter .200" depth due to the internal taper built into the Hornet case.

A Rf Adapter has been made by drilling (.2240") thru the primer pocket then machining a Rim Rebate for a .22 RF ("Acorn") Blank. The adapter rim should be thinned to allow firing pin tip clearance of about .010".

Black Powder charges of about 5.0 grains, depending on manufacturer and screen size, may be compressed to seat the bullet. Bullets may be either Jacketed or Cast Lead, nominal 50 grain, with the Cast Lead being Preferred in the older Barrels.

Smokeless powder charges of starting levels for the .25ACP may be considered for use in this cartridge, employing normal safe Load development practices. Reported maximum Average Pressure is 23,000psi (Ammo Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.) which is typical of RF cartridges. The .25ACP is rated as 17,405psi (Piezo) for comparison.

Best Regards,
William J. Stewart

Chev. William

05-06-2014, 01:47 AM

Apologies if this was already mentioned, I scanned all 6 pages kinda quick.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/25auto.html

I'd cut the barrel back to 16" as it is not helping to be any longer.

I used to reload for and shoot my Raven in the garage. I made a powder scoop out of a .22 short with copper wire soldered to it. I ran W231. It sure was a lot of fun and I got pretty good with the little junker. Not sure I can spare the primers at this point.

Super cool project though!

Please keep in mind that they were testing Loads 'optimized' for a 2" pistol barrel. Loads developed for use in Rifle length barrels should give better performance out of longer barrels than 16". After all the typical .25ACP charge of Fast Burning Powders usually has completed combustion before the bullet leaves the end of the case. A Slower Burning Powder may provide higher velocity at the same peak pressures out of the longer Rifle length barrels.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

35remington

05-08-2014, 02:11 PM

There's a limit to the "slower powder providing higher velocity" bit even in rifle length barrels. There must be a reasonable volume of powder space behind said bullet in the cartridge so pressures may get high enough to reach a reasonable level before the pressure relief valve called a moving bullet allows pressure to start dropping from its peak.

What allows the pressure to get high enough in the first place with slow powders is the case holding enough slow powder. The 25 ACP case can't hold enough slow powder for the pressure to get up there.

As the OP found, the slower ones like 4227 are too slow and the case cannot contain enough of the powder to get the pressure to a reasonable level. Given that short straight cases like the 25 ACP drastically increase the combustion chamber area with very little bullet movement in the barrel, any of the slow magnum type pistol powders will likely be found to be too slow. Even the slowest truly usable powders will have their combustion peak pressure when the bullet is very close to the case mouth.

Reaching SAAMI pressures with the bullet considerably further down the barrel just ain't gonna happen. The bullet movement opens the combustion area way too quickly for slow powders to work.

Chev. William

05-10-2014, 12:02 AM

And here is one on the .25 Stevens Long RF:

The .25 Stevens Long RF.

The Stevens Long was developed before the .25 Stevens Short RF by over a year. The cartridge had proved useful, both in Target and in Small Game "Pot Hunting".

Case Body Diameter = .276" (Cylinder)
Case Length = 1.124" minimum (Ammo Encyclopedia 2nd Ed.)
Case Length = 1.125" maximum (C.O. T. W., 13th Ed.)
Rim Diameter = .333" (Stevens barrels for this cartridge have rim rebates of .380" diameter)
Rim Thickness = .046" (Stevens Barrel Rim Rebate measures .050" deep)
Factory load originally 10.0 to 11.0 grains Black Powder behind a 67 grain Lead Bullet yielding about 1180fps. and a loaded length of 1.395".

.25 Stevens Long Rf can be replaced with a shortened, reformed, and drilled/reamed .22 Hornet case or convert the Firearm to CF and use the reformed and trimmed .22 Hornet case directly. The rim although larger in diameter than the Stevens rim nevertheless may be used in original Stevens barrels as the rim rebate is usually larger although individual firearms may need turned and thinned rim to head space correctly and extraction.

.25 Stevens Long CF can be made from a cut down .22 hornet case that is resized all the way to the rim to a body diameter of .276" (may be done in a Lee Carbide .25ACP sizing die by pushing the case in until the rim is against the bottom of the die. Trim the reformed Hornet to 1.120" minimum, 1.124" nominal, and 1.128" maximum. Post reform and trim annealing of the neck area is recommended.

An Rf Adapter has been made by drilling (.2240" diameter) thru the primer pocket then machining a Rim Rebate for a .22 RF ("Acorn") Blank (.280" diameter minimum). The adapter rim should be thinned to allow firing pin tip clearance of about .010" (crush allowance for the RF Rime).

Black Powder charges of about 9.0 to 11.0 grains, depending on manufacturer and screen size, may be compressed to seat the bullet. Bullets may be either Jacketed or Cast Lead, nominal 50 grain, with the Cast Lead being Preferred in the older Barrels.
For example; 9.0 grains of GOEX 3fg will fit, compressed, in a properly formed (from .22 Hornet) .25 Stevens CF case with a RFN Lead 50 grain Bullet loaded to an overall length of 1.395" to 1.400"

Smokeless powder charges of starting levels for the .25ACP may be considered for use in this cartridge, employing normal safe Load development practices. Reported maximum Average Pressure is 23,000psi (Ammo Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.) which is typical of RF cartridges. The .25ACP is rated as 17,405psi (Piezo) and the .22WEF is rated at 19,000psi for comparison.

This is the Second of a series of posts on the various Obsolete Cartridges chambered in Stevens Rifles.

Best Regards,
William J. Stewart

Chev. William

05-10-2014, 07:18 PM

Crank,
Any progress on the list of powders?
Best Regards,
Chev. william

Chev. William

05-10-2014, 10:37 PM

Here are some photos of my resizing methods that I use for forming replacements for obsolete Cartridges, particularly .250" Caliber and .32 Caliber RF/CF cases:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/20140407_Pictures007crop_zps84e5f832.jpg
This is the .250" diameter Drill Rod Expander Punch with ,from left to right, An expanded Hornet case, a Trimmed and partially resized Case (.250ALS length), and a full length resized case before turning the displaced Brass roll off above the Rim or turning the rim down to .25ACP diameters.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/20140407_Pictures006crop_zps9c0bcc3f.jpg
Shown is the 3/16 ID Fender washer used to space the case pu on the pocket swage punch, the Stripper Cup that goes over the punch, and the RCBS Small Primer Pocket Swage punch installed in my RCBS JR-3 Press.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/20140407_Pictures004rot_zps9a534888.jpg
Shown is the setup in place in the Press with the .25ACP Lee Carbide Sizing Die in the top, and a partially resized case on top of the 'washer=stripper cup-swage punch combo on the Ram.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/20140407_Pictures008crop_zps020e4d93.jpg
This photo shows, from Left to Right, a .250ALS Cartridge (loaded with small rifle primer, 9.0 grains of 3Fg Goex, and a 50 grain FMJ RN bullet (this is one of a lot of cartridges I loaded to provide my Gunsmith with Test Cartridges for a Stevens 1894 Favorite in .25 Stevens that he is upgrading with stronger pivots and reworking a spare Breech Block form RF to CF, the .250ALS case uses the .25ACP rim dimensions, which work in the Stevens Chamber), a 'standard' .25ACP case, a partially reformed Trimmed Hornet case, and a Full length sized .25 Stevens/.250ALS case before turning the displaced Brass roll off or turning the Rim to size.

The Resizing is done in the RCBS press but the expansion is done using a Bench Drill Press to hold the punch and a Hornet Shell Holder mounted in a Machinist's Vise C-Clamped to the Drill Table top hold the case.

I use a punch and hammer to remove the sized case from the sizing die.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

05-12-2014, 10:02 AM

To all, I apologize for the lack of input on this thread. Life has been a bit hectic and everything has been left idle in the background. I will hopefully try to get off my rear end and have some worthwhile info to post here in a week or two.
Thanks

Mark

Chev,
I apologize for not getting the powder info to you, I haven't been able to see the back of my garage for a bit to get to my meager powder stocks. One that came to mind was that I have some Tite Group. Is that one one you already ran?

Chev. William

05-13-2014, 12:20 AM

Crank,
I only ran a single QL run on Titegroup before so I did a series on it this evening:

.25ACP using .900 Cartridge Overall Length (COAL) and 50gr FMJRN bullet with a case H2O Volume of 4.9ml and a 2.0" barrel; a 1.22gr TiteGroup charge Calculates as developing 17,140psi; 720fps MV; 4,956psi MEP; at 58.8% Fill and 91.5% Burn.

The Same load in a 24.0" barrel Calculates as developing 1096fps MV; 230psi MEP; and 100% burn.

A charge weight of 1.23gr Calculates as developing 17,421psi; 1104fps MV; 231psi MEP; and 100% burn (THIS LOAD EXCEEDS SAAMI/CIP Pressure Limit, DO NOT USE).

Pushing the Pressure up to current RF Range; a charge of 1.43gr Calculates as developing 23,786psi; 1212fps MV; 254psi MEP; 69.3% Fill; and 100% burn (THIS LOAD EXCEEDS SAAMI/CIP Pressure Limit, DO NOT USE).

Further, a 99.8% Fill charge of 2.07gr Calculates as Developing 56,687psi; 1507fps MV; 321psi MEP; and a 100% burn (THIS LOAD EXCEEDS SAAMI/CIP Pressure Limit, DO NOT USE).

From my Point of View, I do not believe Titegroup is a good choice for any performance load but would giv ea nice subsonic and low muzzle report when loaded at or below 1.22 grains.
Pushing the Pressure up to the range of modern .22LR (exceeding SAAMI/CIP Limits) would yield a MV in the Range of .22LR standard Velocity Cartridges. This would be truly 'Uncharted Territory' for This powder and would be very sensitive to charge variations.

I hope this helps with the Powder and Charge selection process.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

05-13-2014, 12:21 AM

Crank,
I only ran a single QL run on Titegroup before so I did a series on it this evening:

.25ACP using .900 Cartridge Overall Length (COAL) and 50gr FMJRN bullet with a case H2O Volume of 4.9ml and a 2.0" barrel; a 1.22gr TiteGroup charge Calculates as developing 17,140psi; 720fps MV; 4,956psi MEP; at 58.8% Fill and 91.5% Burn.

The Same load in a 24.0" barrel Calculates as developing 1096fps MV; 230psi MEP; and 100% burn.

A charge weight of 1.23gr Calculates as developing 17,421psi; 1104fps MV; 231psi MEP; and 100% burn (THIS LOAD EXCEEDS SAAMI/CIP Pressure Limit, DO NOT USE).

Pushing the Pressure up to current RF Range; a charge of 1.43gr Calculates as developing 23,786psi; 1212fps MV; 254psi MEP; 69.3% Fill; and 100% burn (THIS LOAD EXCEEDS SAAMI/CIP Pressure Limit, DO NOT USE).

Further, a 99.8% Fill charge of 2.07gr Calculates as Developing 56,687psi; 1507fps MV; 321psi MEP; and a 100% burn (THIS LOAD EXCEEDS SAAMI/CIP Pressure Limit, DO NOT USE).

From my Point of View, I do not believe Titegroup is a good choice for any performance load but would give a nice subsonic and low muzzle report when loaded at or below 1.22 grains.
Pushing the Pressure up to the range of modern .22LR (exceeding SAAMI/CIP Limits) would yield a MV in the Range of .22LR standard Velocity Cartridges. This would be truly 'Uncharted Territory' for This powder and would be very sensitive to charge variations.

I hope this helps with the Powder and Charge selection process.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

05-15-2014, 12:46 AM

For some reason it seems the 'Cast Boolits" Foruns have started using a "Google Custom Search" in place of whatever the Forum used before.

Now it is MUCH Harder for me to find the Threads that I was interested in before.

Instead of one or two Searches to find all the various Threads, it seems that the 'Google Custom Search' function hides all the ones of interest so I must use "Advanced Search" to find each Thread individually.

This is far more work than I feel is reasonable.

I hope that my "problem message" to the Administrators will get some relief and improvement, and hopefully return to the Search methods previously employed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Update 2014 05 17: No response yet from the Forum Administrator(s) to either of the two messages I sent about the Search Engine Change problems I am having. Also no apparent activity on any of several threads I have been watching since before the change. Now I wonder if others have had the same problems finding the threads of interest.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Crank

05-25-2014, 10:51 AM

I did load up some more rounds yesterday with another experimental load, so I will get to the range tomorrow for a bit of testing. I will update afterwards.

Mark

Crank

05-27-2014, 06:51 PM

Well, things are looking up. A load of 2.0gr. of Titegroup under a 35gr. GDHP had enough power to cycle 55 rounds without incident. The velocity is still low and the cases are still sooty from a lack of pressure to seal, but they worked well. Accuracy was in the softball size groups at 100yds, but since this is a defensive hollow point, I won't lose any sleep over it. I did not have a chronograph, but with the groups centered at 50yds, they dropped about 5-6" at 100yds. I plan to increase the powder charge and monitor the results. The brass was being mildly ejected and almost all of them stayed on the bench, so I am a long way from overtaxing the action. I still need to locate a lubrisizer to run the bullets from CCB down to size. I am holding out hope that I can get better accuracy from a lead boolit and be a whole lot cheaper.

Mark

Chev. William

05-27-2014, 09:31 PM

Crank,
Tumble lube at least before sizing the bullets.
A Lee Lube and sizing set has a push through size die in it so bullets go in the bottom and pop out the top into the catcher, which happens to be the storage container for die and lube.
Lee will custom make a sizer die for the size you find you need by Slugging your barrel.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20140528: I opened five of the Grade 1 PTL Blanks and measured the weight of the dumped powder on a properly zeroed RCBS Beam Scale (6.55 grains) and when the total is divided by five I get the average powder charge of these PTL loads as 1.31 Grains.
The powder appears to be a relatively fine random sized Flake powder of medium Grey apparent color with a semigloss finish as it does reflect diffuse highlights.

So we can add this experimental information to the body of our knowledge of PTL Blank Loads.

These are labeled as "Simpson Strong Tie P22AC1 .22 Caliber "A" Crimp Loads, Gray #1" and noted in the fine print that they are made in the USA by Winchester and head stamped "Super X".
Best Regards,
Chev. William

44man

05-29-2014, 10:20 AM

I can't figure why a .25 ACP rifle and did not read all this post but it is funny anyway. I can't resist, fill the sucker with 4831 or surplus .50 BMG powder! Might be wrong, how about a single piece of powder? :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
But then, the price of .22's might make sense in the end. I bet the thing is a lot of fun.

Crank

05-29-2014, 10:35 AM

44man,
I did it simply for the look on people's face when they see it. Not to mention the fact that nobody will be trying to borrow ammo from me:-P

Mark

44man

05-29-2014, 01:12 PM

44man,
I did it simply for the look on people's face when they see it. Not to mention the fact that nobody will be trying to borrow ammo from me:-P

Mark
I bet it is a hoot to play with.
Remember the old days when you could buy a gun that you put a no. 6 shot in the barrel and used a paper cap? I cracked a windshield with the thing.

Chev. William

05-29-2014, 01:13 PM

Crank,
I got a bunch of Giggles from picturing someone "borrowing" some of your Rifle .25ACP loads to fire in a Pistol "Eargesplittin Loudenboomen" Fire breathing out of a two inch barrel.
Still Chucking at the idea,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

06-07-2014, 02:55 PM

I down sized about 70 each .22 Hornet cases to .25 Stevens diameters and noticed the Carbide ring of the .25ACP sizing die had moved back into the die body by about .025". this was using the "RC" press. I had previously used a "JR-3" press for over 200 cases and had not noticed any such movement fo the Carbide ring.

I sent the .25ACP Carbide Sizing Die to Lee for Inspection, and they sent me an email yesterday that they are sending a replacement Die via USPS. So I guess the Carbide ring is not supposed to move up into the body like this one did.

Tried another .25ACP Carbide sizing die of about the same vintage and found that the Ring moved up about .010" after sizing down 30 Hornet cases to .276" diameter in my "RC" press. It seems this vintage Carbide .25ACP sizing die does not have an internal shoulder for the Ring to seat against when flush with the end of the die. This second one I will not be sending back to Lee as I wish to 'experiment with it' first. I expect the new replacement from Lee to arrive sometime next week.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

06-08-2014, 02:02 PM

Crank,
Any Progress on the Projects?
It has been a while since you gave an update.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

9.3X62AL

06-08-2014, 05:21 PM

I have a habit of being "That Guy" when it comes to strange stuff.

Mark

Not even close, Mark. You need to reload and cast bullets for the 7.65 MAS pistol--the 30 Luger in a Ruger P-89X--and the 9.3 x 62 before they'll even take the application. Read the book/saw the film/got the T-shirt.

Crank

06-08-2014, 08:14 PM

9.3x62AL,
Respectfully, I haven't dabbled with strange pistol cartridges much lately. Loading for .33-47, 45-60, 44-77, 40-60, .32WSL, .35WSL, 351SL, .401WSL, .219 Donaldson Wasp, my Dreyse rifle in whatever the heck the cartridge is called (I formed my brass to match a chamber cast), etc... make most people say ***???:veryconfu I don't own a .308, 30-06, .270 or other common rifle rounds, heck, the only .223 I own is in an XP-100. I have modern firearms, but even those stray from average, .338 Lapua, .204 Ruger, 6.5x47 Lapua, .20 Tac, .219 Zipper. I am not trying to one up you or be rude, I genuinely delight in shooting firearms/calibers that don't make sense to rational people. That is why I went to gunsmithing school so many years ago, because I realized that the evil squirrels would keep me broke if I had to pay some other fool for my follies. To follow your quote, "Read the book/saw the film/got the T-shirt." I would rather be an author.;)

Mark

P.S. Chev, I haven't had time to work in my garage, it is a nightmare right now and I need to gather the courage to try to organize it, so I can get some work done.

Chev. William

06-09-2014, 02:05 AM

Just to add to the discussion, Late last week I got a Call from Joe Mueller of Hollywood Engineering asking me to recommend people who might be interested in purchasing one or more of his machines as his wife and daughter have out voted him and plan to liquidate the Business remains and buy a house. It seems they are discouraged by the task of rebuilding after the fire in the Shop last year. The Machines include several Warner & Swasey (sp?) production Engine lathes and a few Bridgeport type mills plus a bunch of tooling.

As to my own Cartridge interests, it is mostly in the small bores and inexpensive ranges such as .25 Stevens, .250ALRM family, and the .32 "Colt" RF/CF family of cartridges. I do own some old standbys such as .38 Long colt in a Colt .38 D.A. "Lightning" revolver, .41 Long colt, .30 M1 Carbine, 30-06 in both M1903A3 and .30 M1 Rifle, and 44-40.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

06-20-2014, 10:47 AM

Crank,
Any progress on this project?
Chev. William

Crank

06-20-2014, 10:58 AM

No progress on any projects, but I did get my work area cleaned up. However, my mother was visiting for the past week and I didn't set foot in my shop until last night and helped a friend smooth up his new Accelerator pistol. As for any planned progress, I will be on the fence, I have a month long school coming up shortly and I don't know how much focus I can put on my stuff right now. I did excercise control the other day when I saw a nice little Bauer .25, I took a couple of deep breaths and walked away.

Mark

Chev. William

06-24-2014, 03:40 PM

Chev. William

08-08-2014, 10:57 AM

Hollywood engineering has sold all of its remaining "Fire Damaged" Machine Tools to a Dealer and is now posting the Property itself for Sale. Joe is still working with hand tools and portable equipmnent on filling what orders he can from existing parts and pieces he saved from the Fire, including the Dies he had me clean up for him.

A Sad time for the Hobby as there probably will not be any more New Machining of Hollywood Presses again, just piece work on the partially completed ones he saved.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

08-12-2014, 12:49 PM

Crank,
Any progress on this project?
Chev. William
A repeat of the Question.
Chev. William

Chev. William

08-12-2014, 01:03 PM

In my "looking" for a .252" Diameter 67 grain bullet I ran across "Hunters Supply" who sell a nominal 63 grain bullet that weighs 62.9 grains and measures .258" diameter by my tools. This will require sizing to .252" so Today I ordered a Lee custom "Size and Lube" 'push through' set in .252" diameter.
Lee states delivery of Custom Size and Lube sets is 60 days after Order so I have a 'while' to wait.
Best regards,
Chev. William

My First ordered Sizing kit was misdelivered (I never received it but the USPS listed it as Delivered 7-5-2014) so I started an investigation and, in parallel, ordered another .252" +.000"/-.001" sizing Kit. Now to wait for the USPS to complete their investigation and their report to me promised today. Also, I have to monitor when Lee ships the replacement Kit and carefully Track it through the USPS system, hoping that this time it will be actually delivered to my address for me to receive.
Of late, that has been a recurring problem with mail delivered to the wrong address, since they removed carriers from Sun Valley Post Office and all carrier deliveries are from the Burbank, CA Post Office now. Perhaps it is a problem of lack of familiarity with the added delivery areas at the new carrier location. Yesterday I received four misdelivered pieces of mail, two from other 'De Garmo' addresses and two from completely different Street addresses, well away from my location.
Last week I received a package that should have been delivered Three houses Away on 'De Garmo', that one I took down the street and hand delivered it to the correct house.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Garyshome

08-12-2014, 03:13 PM

.25 ACP rifle........WHY?

Crank

08-12-2014, 04:31 PM

:bigsmyl2:Just so that everyone will question my sanity!

On a more serious note, WHY NOT! original ammo is virtually non-existent and not renowned as a ballistic wonder, the rifle is ruggedly constructed and graceful and begs to be used. With the current ammo situation I have created an equal to a rimfire that is reloadable. I cherish the horrified looks that people have when they see how I have altered a "collectible" (collectible my ***). Besides, I enjoy the engineering challenge to make something like this work.

Mark

Chev. William

08-13-2014, 12:07 AM

.25 ACP rifle........WHY?

Because it is "Cool" Idea. And I have a Marlin Model 56 and a Lothar Walther 23.4 inch long Barrel Blank for .25ACP/6.35mm browning just waiting for the funds to accrue to have my gunsmith fit the barrel and Bolt assembly I bought through Numerich Arms about a year and a half ago.
I think this 'Levermatic' with a ten shot detachable magazine will will be Very Interesting to shoot.

I also have a Stevens Favorite in ".25 Stevens" being fitted with a Center Fire Converted Breech Block that I will also be shooting .25ACP through, along with some longer body of the same sizes.

The end results will be some "Cheap to Shoot" fun firearms.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

taco650

08-13-2014, 08:30 AM

Because it is "Cool" Idea. And I have a Marlin Model 56 and a Lothar Walther 23.4 inch long Barrel Blank for .25ACP/6.35mm browning just waiting for the funds to accrue to have my gunsmith fit the barrel and Bolt assembly I bought through Numerich Arms about a year and a half ago.
I think this 'Levermatic' with a ten shot detachable magazine will will be Very Interesting to shoot.

I also have a Stevens Favorite in ".25 Stevens" being fitted with a Center Fire Converted Breech Block that I will also be shooting .25ACP through, along with some longer body of the same sizes.

The end results will be some "Cheap to Shoot" fun firearms.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

That cost a bunch to get built. At least Crank can do his own 'smithing but he's still spending $$ on electricity. Sorry Chev but my desire to have something unique is severely limited by my cash flow orientation. At this point in my life, I'm content to watch you and Crank get the "different" stuff made.

Chev. William

08-13-2014, 02:31 PM

Taco650,
I know the Feeling. I am 71, going on 72, and in a Movie Industry Union. I have had no Paid Work since December 2013, and the outlook for further work is bleak. My Union has Union Dispatch but no Production Calls have come in requesting our services. I am surviving on a combination of Social Security Retirement, Military Retired Pay, Veterans Administration Disability Pay for Service Connected problems, and a pair of small retirement fund payments from past employments that were long enough to Vest a retirement benefit. As Taxes, Fuel, and Food costs greatly outstrip the "Cost of Living" increases in my SS, VA and DFAS pay, I am short on 'Discretionary Funds' also, which is why the projects I have are proceeding so slowly currently.
Just to add to my potential misery the California State legislature is trying to make a law to require ALL Existing Firearms be Serialized and Registered with the State. If this is not a Big Pain to you, just think of the LOSS of Value to Collectors with arms produced before Serial numbers were used generally. Remember Collector Value is Highly Dependent on Original Condition. Serialization is an alteration of Original Condition, which cuts the Collector Value deeply.
Think of an Original high value Collectable Kentucky Flintlock Rifle after the State Stamps a BOLD Serials Number on the Barrel and possibly the Lock as they7 both might be considered firearms separately.
And of course they are planning to make a violation a Felony.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Jbiker

08-13-2014, 02:47 PM

I wonder how 10x or h322 would work? They both meter well for small charges .

Chev. William

08-13-2014, 08:43 PM

I wonder how 10x or h322 would work? They both meter well for small charges .
I did not find "10x" listed in the QuickLOAD powders but Hodgdon H322 is so I ran a 100% fill charge plot in a .25ACP out of a 24" barrel:
Charge: 2.64 grains of Hodgdon H322 which calculates to 100.3% fill in a case of 5.05 gr H2O capacity
Bullet: 50 grain FMJ-RN seated to a cartridge length of 0.905"
Primer: assumed Small Pistol.
Results: Peak Pressure Calculated as 4,565psi; MV = 561fps; ME = 35ft-lbs; Propellant burnt =13.6% of charge; MEP = 76psi; Ballistic efficiency = 6.9%
This does no look like a promising powder for this cartridge.
Pushing the Charge up to 3.91 gr results in 148.3% fill, a HIGHLY Compressed load that calculates to yield 17,186psi Peak Pressure; MV = 812fps; MEP = 152psi; 19.2% Propellant Burnt; and Ballistic Efficiency of 9.8%
Still a Poor Choice for this cartridge.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

JSnover

08-13-2014, 09:08 PM

Well, it may not be practical or 'economically sound' but if I had the time and the money I could do something like that. It wouldn't be the first time someone ever wondered what the heck I was up to.

Chev. William

08-21-2014, 02:38 PM

Off subject but I think this will be of interest to all:

I completed Trimming some of the Tubing (9/32" x .014" Wall sized down to .274" OD in a .25ACP sizing die) to length and assembled a pair of 'test' cartridges using a Grade 4 .25 Caliber PTL blank and a 63 grain .258" diameter RFN Lead Bullet.
I pressed the Blank in one end of a trimmed tube and, after belling the other end, seated the bullet using a .25ACP seat/crimp die.
I did run the case in far enough to crimp the case tube to the bullet just at the 'crimp groove' in the bullet.

Wednesday I took the test cartridges to my Gunsmith's shop and we temporarily assembled my strengthened pivots 1894 Stevens Action to a 'way to much head space old Stevens '.25 Stevens' Barrel. It ended up with about .080" head space form breech face to cartridge end when seated in the barrel.

This is a deliberate test to see if the tubing is suitable for continued use as a cartridge case.

The Cartridge was fired successfully.
The Blank moved back in the tube as both moved back in the chamber toward the Breech face.
The 'unsupported' blank body just forward of the original rim 'ballooned' out to form a second 'rim'.
The original Rim 'Ballooned out until it formed a "T" shaped vent hole in the upper section.
The Bullet exited the barrel.
The Fired tube case showed expansion to fit the Chamber, growing from a .274" OD before firing to a .282" OD after firing.
The Blank end had a slight 'Bell' to it.
The Bullet end still had the Crimp in it, so the bullet left with a reduced diameter 'heel' I presume.
In spite of the Venting, my gunsmith reported a 'loud muzzle blast' or 'report' so the venting was near the end of bullet travel within the barrel.
It appears the edges of the tear 'vent' were rolled away rather than bit being torn off.
No detectable damage was found in the 1894 Stevens Action, the Breech Block face is still perpendicular to the Barrel center line and at the same distance from breech face to Rear face of Receiver Barrel Socket, pivots are still straight and linkage is tight.

Conclusions:
The Tubing is adequate for use as an Adapter Case between .25 Cal PTL Blanks (of nominal .248" OD) to .25 Stevens rifle chambers ( the original cartridge was .276" diameter and the worn chambers about .283" to 284" diameter).
The tubing either should not be crimped to the bullet OR the tubing 'neck should be reamed to reduce the .014" wall to something around .008" to .009" thickness.
The Blank's wall failed rather than the tubing wall, and at that only after being greatly distorted due to the excess head space of the experiment.
Normal Head space provisions would most likely not have caused the blank rim to fail as it did in this experiment, since the Blank moved to the rear far enough so that the original rim was completely outside the design chamber rim rebate.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/2014040828_Pictures007_zpsd8077dea.jpg

Photo of my development RF project to date:
Series 1 Cases have the tube case hard against the Blank Rim.
Series 2 Cases have the Tube case spaced slightly away from the Blank Rim.
Blue uses Grade 2 PTL Blank.
Green uses Grade 3 PTL Blank.
Yellow uses Grade 4 PTL Blank.
Red sues Grade 5 PTL Blank.
All Blanks shown are .25 Caliber, .298" Rim diameter and .248" body diameter.

Chev. William

08-28-2014, 02:18 AM

This Afternoon, Wednesday August 27th, I got a call form my gunsmith to come and pick up the Strengthened 1894 Stevens Favorite Action and two Stevens ".25 Stevens Long RF" barrels that he had ready for my Range testing. So i went in, paid $75.00 for the work, took the Action and two barrels home, fitted a Stock to the action. packed up the now complete rifle action and barrels with some of my 'First and Second Generation' Reloadable Rim fire cartridges, and off to the 'Angeles Shooting Ranges' for a session of testing.

It did not go well.

Every Cartridge was difficult to extract as the Action extractor would NOT hold the rim available on the cartridges.

I had numerous "light Firing pin Strikes" when attempting to fire cartridges of both designs.

Two Cartridges that did fire resulted in the case stuck in the chamber (one in each of the two barrels) and the fired blank case came out of the case without releasing the case.

One Stuck case body did come out with a Cleaning Rod inserted from the muzzle, but the other did not. In both cases the 'blank' did move back and vent to the outside due to rim failures. This is NOT Good Results but I have not yet dissected the the failures nor cleaned the two barrels as the outing also resulted in a Vehicle Start Failure that took more physical Effort than I should have exerted to get it started, so I got myself home and went to bed for a time of recovery. it is now after 2300 hours PDT as I type this 'interim Report'. I will get the rifle and barrels out of the vehicle Tomorrow morning and do the clean up, etc.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20140828 0830PDT: Started cleaning the two barrels and the 1894 Action this morning and observed that the barrels do NOT appear to be Head Spaced correctly.

Barrel #1 has a gap between Breech Block and Barrel rear face of about .025" PLUS a Rim Rebate depth of .057". The Rim of the .25 Stevens Long Rim Fire cartridge is between .045" and .050" thick. My 'First and Second Generation' Reloadable Rim Fire designs have a rim Thickness of .040" to .043" so the effective Head Space for Barrel #1 is between .030" and .040" from fully seated Rim in the Rebate to the front of the Breech face. or, measured from Breech face to front of Rebate, about .080". this is probably why I had 'Light Firing Pin Strikes' and rim 'blowout Venting' experiences with this barrel.

Barrel #2 has a Gap of about .040" between barrel rear face and the Breech Block Face when seated in the action. The Rebate is not measurable as there is still a Case body stuck in the Chamber, which interferes with the measurement.
BUT .040" is WAY TOO MUCH gap!

The Breech Face is square and parallel to the Barrel so it appears NOT to have been damaged by the 'Blowouts'.

I will be taking this action and barrels back to my Gunsmith Today for his review and corrective action.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Hickory

08-28-2014, 03:32 AM

I haven't read all the posts here, just the first page & last pages, but it seems that getting enough velocity is a concern with the 25 acp case. If a rimless case is needed for the project and powder enough to keep the pressure up in a barrel longer than 16 1/2" I have a suggestion.
The 5.7x28FN uses the same shell holder as the 25 acp and is a rimless case and would be longer than the 25 acp even if cut off at the shoulder.
Just another monkey wrench in the project or thought process.

Crank

08-28-2014, 01:25 PM

Hickory,
That is a novel idea, however, the C.O.L. is perfect with the .25 ACP to allow the rifle to function. I think I am going to let this thread die out peacefully, but thanks for the input.

Mark

Chev. William

08-28-2014, 09:21 PM

Crank,
Are you also going to let us 'die' without giving the rest of the Saga of the .25ACP Winchester Rifle?
Please, continue to give us status reports on the project and the loads and accuracy you achieve.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William

09-23-2014, 02:25 PM

Found this post on another Thread:
Crank (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?33359-Crank)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/statusicon/user-online.png
Boolit Master http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/ranks/teamboolitss.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/payments.php) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/customavatars/avatar33359_1.gif (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?33359-Crank) Join DateNov 2013LocationSan DiegoPosts181

psweigle,
I am the daffy SOB that built it. I am happy with the limited progress I have made with it, however, costs can be an issue. The problem centers on the fact that you are using a .251 groove depth barrel. All other .25's use .257 groove depth. The only source for a barrel is Lothar Walther (YIKES!!!), but you can get a liner in the correct size from Buffalo arms at a reduced cost. Otherwise, the only other difficulty is that nobody has a reamer for rent and purchase is the only option. I am letting that thread I started die, since it has strayed horribly. If you want to know more PM me and I can give you my contact info.

Mark

It seems "Crank" has decided that this is no longer a Viable Thread for the .25 Acp rifle discussion.
Too Bad,
Chev. William

Chev. William

10-27-2014, 05:27 PM

My Marlin Model 56 Conversion from .22LR to .25ACP is getting closer as I have ordered a ".25ACP Match Grade Finish Chamber Reamer and matching "GO" gauge from 'Pacific Tool and Gauge' (PTG) and a ".25ACP/6.35 Browning Barrel Blank from 'Lothar Walther' (LW) this month.

LW is the only source I found for this caliber Barrel Blank and their normal stated tolerance on Bore and Groves dimensions is slightly less than +/-.0008 inches. The Groove diameter nominal is .250" and twist is listed as 9.8" per turn. I ordered the Barrel Blank in normal Chrome-Moly Barrel Steel as that is 'Off the Shelf' and I was able to get my payment to them in time to make this months Bulk Shipment from Europe so I am looking forward to receiving it soon.

I already have the 'surplus' Model 62 CF bolt assembly modified to fit the .25ACP head on hand and set aside for this project, so when the Reamer and Barrel are here I can turn them and the Donor Gun over to my gunsmith for fitting and assembly.

Marlin used a Steel Receiver on the Model 56 and Model 62 rifles, both of which were clip magazine fed. I found that the original Marlin magazine was unsuitable for use in the Conversion so found and purchased some 'Phoenix' ".25ACP pistol" magazines to be modified for this project.

'Phoenix' seems to have sued a .32ACP sized body to make these from and the results are a poor feeding .25ACP version that WILL be modified for relaible and smooth feeding of the full capacity of cartridges. 'Phoenix' used a molded guide strip in the front of these magazines while letting the rear ends 'slop' around and resulting in jams with 5 or more rounds in the magazine. I plan to remove the nose guide strip and add tow thin side Guide strips to hold the cartridges properly in 'single stack column position with the rim edge of one cartridge 'nested' in the extractor Groove of the one below. A new or modified follower will be fitted to clear the side strips. I will also add a 'Lump' to the rear face of the 'Phoenix' magazine to use the Marlin magazine Latch.

I intend to adjust the Marlin Stock to allow the barrel to 'free float' initially to test its Accuracy then, if needed, to add a single point of contact between barrel and stock front end.

This particular Doner Marlin Model 56 has been in the family for Decades and has had several hundred .22LR rounds, perhaps over a thousand, fired through it at paper targets and to 'remove' Jack Rabbits from local farmers fields. It is one of the Factory Serialized ones so is legal for this conversion and not one of the 'collectible' ones that were sold without Serial Numbers.

I intend to save the .22LR barrel and bolt assemblies for possible return to original condition if this experiment does not turn out happily.

Now to 'hover' waiting for the Barrel to be delivered, then again some more waiting for the Reamer and "GO" gauge to come. Perhaps I will have an early Christmas Present this year?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20141030 PS: PTG has mailed the .32 Long RF/.32 Long Colt CF Finish Reamer, and i received the .25ACP Go Gauge already so now am waiting on the "Match Grade .25ACP Finish Chamber Reamer" and the .32 Long 'GO' Gauge. Today I added the Two calibers "NOT GO" gauges to my list of Orders from PTG. Now it is 'sit back and be patient' time. Chev. William