Anyone used camshaft assembly lube used in boolit lube?

[MTtimberline]

My mind was wandering today and I had an idea that I just couldn't let go. I noticed that many of the boolit lube recipes I have read about use commonly available automotive products. I was wondering about the assembly lubricants used on camshafts and other engine components to protect them at start-up. Has anyone used any of these in a bullet lube experiment? There are some very knowledgeable people on here when dealing with boolit lube, so there is no better place to ask. I am very interested in what the lube quest guys would have to say. Would it be viable to try and make a lube by mixing camshaft lubricant with beeswax? Just kicking it around in theory for now. Sometimes when I get an idea in my head I just can't get rid of it.

Here is a portion of the MSDS of the product if it is of any help. Would these ingredients have any desirable properties?

"2. COMPOSITION AND INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
INGREDIENT NAME CAS No. WEIGHT

LUBRICATING OILS, PETROLEUM, BASE OILS, HIGHLY REFINED**(2) Mixture 50-70 %
BUTENE, HOMOPOLYMER (COMMON NAME: POLYBUTENES) 9003-29-6 10-20 %
SULFURIZED FATTY OIL AND HYDROCARBON Proprietary 7-13 %
*PHOSPHORODITHIOIC ACID, O,O-DI-C1-14-ALKYL ESTERS, ZINC SALTS (TYPE A) 68649-42-3A 7-13 %
* This chemical(s) is hazardous according to OSHA/WHIMIS criteria

COMPOSITION COMMENTS
Refer to section eight for exposure limits on ingredients.
Chemical ingredients not regulated by OSHA, SARA, state or federal agencies are
treated confidentially.
**(2) The base oil for this product can be a mixture of any of the following highly
refined petroleum streams:
CAS 64741-88-4; CAS 64741-89-5; CAS 64741-96-4; CAS 64741-97-5; CAS
64742-01-4; CAS 64742-52-5; CAS 64742-53-6; CAS 64742-54-7; CAS 64742-55-8;
CAS 64742-56-9; CAS 64742-57-0; CAS 64742-62-7; CAS 64742-63-8; CAS
64742-65-0; CAS 72623-83-7; CAS 72623-85-9; CAS 72623-86-0; CAS 72623-87-1.
Carcinogenicity: The petroleum base oils contained in this product have been highly
refined by a variety of processes including solvent extraction, solvent dewaxing and
hydrotreating to remove aromatics and improve performance characteristics. None of
the oils used are listed as a carcinogen by NTP, IARC, or OSHA."

[Deep Six]

Yes - once I put some moly engine assembly lube in a batch of paraffin/high temp moly EP grease lube I cooked up. Didn't work any better than any other paraffin-based lube (i.e. not great).

[MTtimberline]

The product I was considering does not contain moly which may be a plus. It is a can of greenish blue liquid lubricant that is very slippery but sticks to the parts better than engine oil. Some of the assembly lubes are more of a grease consistency. I may just have to do as you have done and mix some up one day. Even If it is a failed idea something will be gained in the experience. Sometimes just as much or more can be learned and remembered by an idea failing.

[geargnasher]

The oils are, well, basically brightstock oils like engine oil bases. Polybutene makes it stringy/tacky like bar/chain oil or Lucas/Morey's/Motor Honey/STP etc. The sulfur, phosphorus, and zinc compounds are organometallics that act as anti-galling and extreme-pressure agents. The zinc in particular acts as a boundary lubricant in tight spots, hot spots, or dry spots where the oil film may get squeezed completely out. The alkyl esters are essentially a synthetic, extreme-pressure, polymer wax like spermecetti and is there to add film strength and slipperiness.

All those ingredients have been tested more or less specifically by several of us and many reported in the "extreme lube" thread. In the end, while some may add a 'feel good' factor, none except the polybutene and the base oils proved to be particularly necessary or beneficial to boolit lube. Some things like phosphate compounds must be very carefully formulated to be friendly to yellow metals, the lard oil compound this particular lube contains is surely compatible as are most engine assembly formulations due to the yellow metal composition of engine bearings. Gear lubricants are generally a no-no for boolit lubes because of the high phosphorus content.

Bottom line? Use it. Don't expect miracles, though.

Gear

[MTtimberline]

Excellent response. Thank you for the information. I'm glad you mentioned the gear lube tidbit as well. Some very interesting points and I feel like doing more research and reading.

[geargnasher]

What we found out with boolit lube is that there really isn't a "tribologial" analogy in industry. Essentially, a boolit zinging down a rifle barrel with the leading edges of the engraves torquing hard against the sides of the lands isn't something normally encountered with machinery and there never has been a lubricant or lubrication method evolved to address the situation. High-speed babbit is the closest industrial equivalent, and all high-speed babbit bearings are lubricated with light oil under pressure with significant flow (engine crankshaft bearings, for example). Low-speed babbit is typically lubricated with open-well lubricators and hard brick grease that is constantly fed directly to the journals (dozer and railcar journals or stationary equipment shafts).

Nothing out there really employs high sliding speeds, extreme pressure, babbit, and grease. Really, our boolits need little oil reservoirs inside and a way to let powder gas pump oil out through the lube grooves to the contact surfaces. Problem is, that requires a little space for the oil, and any space around a boolit creates powder gas leaks and gas-cutting that ruins the whole system. So really, we need a positive cup seal on the boolit base and a high-pressure oiling system. Since that's rather impractical, we cobble together something that is a grease until fired, then immediately becomes a pressurized liquid with high film strength and low volatility. We also need it to withstand direct heat and flame for a few milliseconds and leave the same trace behind every shot. Tall orders to say the least, but you can see how automotive and industrial lubes may or may not be useful in boolit lubes. Most of the lubricants out there are designed for steel-on-steel surfaces, those that are designed for babbit applications are difficult to apply to boolits.

In the end, a meltable wax "carrier" base and lubricating oil seem to do best. The wax gets out of the way and lets the oil do the job under heat and pressure while we rely on tight fit and pressure to keep the gas leaks to a minimum. EP additives haven't proven all that useful to high speed, lead-alloy boolits in gun barrels, in fact they are sometimes a liability because they tend to leave deposits behind in an unpredictable (or at least inconsistent) manner. EP additives are intended to separate HARD metals, not hard from soft, it requires very high viscosity oil or light oil under continuous, high pressure to achieve successful surface separation and lubrication with soft/hard interfaces. The only way to keep lead from rubbing off on steel is a film barrier, and good film barriers are extremely high-viscosity oils that don't like high sliding speeds.

Welcome to the catch-22 of boolit lubes.

Gear

[357maximum]

Wow......that made my head hurt a little bit........lemme take a crack at putting that into one sentence:

At some point we must all accept the fact that, sometimes good enough, is indeed...good enough. :lol: :mrgreen:

[B.C.Jay]

Hey Gear, have you ever thought about writing a book on the subject? I'd love to know everything you've learned. ;)

BTW, thanks for sharing so much, I always enjoy your info.

[btroj]

Wow......that made my head hurt a little bit........lemme take a crack at putting that into one sentence:

At some point we must all accept the fact that, sometimes good enough, is indeed...good enough. :lol: :mrgreen:

Your head hurts?

Try exchanging PMs with him for a few years regarding this stuff. I'm a pharmacist, I don't even change my own engine oil! He has me going into auto parts stores and reading "Bob the oil guy".

I may never be the same again!

[cbrick]

Yep, good stuff. Oh wait, in lube? Never tried that but it is good stuff on the base pin and ratchet for your revolver cylinder. :mrgreen:

Rick

[BaconStrips]

Assembly lube
Yep, good stuff. Oh wait, in lube? Never tried that but it is good stuff on the base pin and ratchet for your revolver cylinder.

now that's one I never considered before. Will have to give that a try.

[357maximum]

I had some success with a red and sticky engine assembly stuff in a small bottle for lube making..... cannot remember the brand as it was quite awhile ago....it was DARK RED, thick and gooey in original form (polybutene likely).

After lube making/testing with it... I ended up mixing the remaining goo with quite a bit of light machine oil and I still use that concoction as general firearm lubricating oil. My Dan Wesson 357 revolver really likes it on the crane/cylinder....better than anything else I have tried in fact. My Dan357 has had a long hard life eating max doses of powder and it needs a bit of pampering in the cylinder/crane area lubewise....and the goo+oil does the trick.

[357maximum]

Your head hurts?

Try exchanging PMs with him for a few years regarding this stuff. I'm a pharmacist, I don't even change my own engine oil! He has me going into auto parts stores and reading "Bob the oil guy".

I may never be the same again!


Try digesting some of that from an old ditch diggers perspective :mrgreen: Personally I think IAN missed his calling...he would have made a great lawyer. :mrgreen:

[btroj]

Try digesting some of that from an old ditch diggers perspective :mrgreen: Personally I think IAN missed his calling...he would have made a great lawyer. :mrgreen:

Ouch, that hurts.

I will say that I have picked his mechanics brain a few times. His knowledge base is vastly different from one, that is for certain. I stay away from fixing anything that burns petrol.

[btroj]

I had some success with a red and sticky engine assembly stuff in a small bottle for lube making..... cannot remember the brand as it was quite awhile ago....it was DARK RED, thick and gooey in original form (polybutene likely).

After lube making/testing with it... I ended up mixing the remaining goo with quite a bit of light machine oil and I still use that concoction as general firearm lubricating oil. My Dan Wesson 357 revolver really likes it on the crane/cylinder....better than anything else I have tried in fact. My Dan357 has had a long hard life eating max doses of powder and it needs a bit of pampering in the cylinder/crane area lubewise....and the goo+oil does the trick.

I think polybutene is a good thing in a gun lubricant for some situations. I think this is why 44man likes STP on cylinder pins.

I may need to mix some STP with a light oil. Heck, I even have some almost pure polybutene bird repellant I could use, just enough to make it thicker and sticky.