How to know when gunsmithing isn't worth it?

[Walter Laich]

case in point: bought a SxS 'Charles Daley' shotgun off the web with hammer springs way too heavy (I'm figuring it's not a real Charles Daley--just a knock off).
Got my files out and was able to make one too light to work
Bought spring blanks from Brownells and found out I don't have what it takes to work on springs--screwed another one up
So.....
Should I try to find a gunsmith to take my remaining blank and make a hammer spring or write this off as a learning experience
cost of the shotgun was $300, would hate to have gunsmithing fees equal or exceed this.

[Reg]

It would depend on how much value you place on the shotgun as to if you take it to a qualified gunsmith to fit that spring. You could take it around with you and get a quote. Anyone who has fitted up that kind of spring will, depending on what kind of a blank you bring in , have a rough idea how much time will be involved.
Or
You could go ahead and try to fit it your self again.
The biggest mistake most make when fitting ANYTHING is that they get in way too big a hurry.
Fitting is a process. I don't care if you are fitting a stock or any replacement internal part.
You must take your time. Take some more time . Many times what you are talking of fitting , one will only take a minor stroke of a file or the lightest touch on a stone, then you check the fit. Use Dycom or Prussian blue or even soot from a alcohol lamp to see how the part does or does not fit up. Remove only the high spots. When it bears evenly but still doesn't fit correctly, then you remove a bit more metal, then you refit to get even bearing.
Many times, the part will start fitting up and you think you have it. Maby yes, maby no. The part must also be properly fitted in both the relaxed and tensioned state. There is a difference.
You may have that put together and taken apart a hundred times ( and you might, really !! ) to get the proper fit.
Patience is the key word.

[WallyM3]

I'd be inclined to say that if you can remove and reinstall the spring, then just sneak up (test fitting and operating lots) on the final product.

Although perhaps not directly applicable, there's a Rule of Halves that's useful to keep in mind. It goes along these lines. Once your cut is shy, but in the neighborhood, remove half the material to get to the desired fit and then measure. Remove half that result and measure again...etc., until you're right on the money.

[CastingFool]

Yes, patience is the key. I once worked on an old N.R. Davis double barrel shotgun for my bil. He said the safety wouldn't work. I finally got it to work, must have disassembled and reassembled the shotgun about 40 times. At one point, I was getting frustrated and jammed everything together. Lo and behold, the safety worked! I disassembled it one more time, and reassembled it, taking the normal care. Safety wouldn't work. Took it apart again, and reassembled it, jamming the parts together, and the safety worked fine. So then I just left it alone. To this day, as far as I know, the safety is still working. I know, this doesn't help you out much, but I agree with Reg, call around and get quotes first before you commit.

[John Taylor]

A while back I made a spring for a revolver, took four springs before I was happy with it.. This was starting with annealed spring stock, not blanks.

[johnson1942]

when your tired, dont work on it, when your fresh and feeling good work on it. when its all done you will forget the frustration of it all. your skills will just get better and better after every job.

[Piedmont]

Charles Daly was just an importer. So I'm not sure what you mean by not a real Charles Daly, but a knock-off. Some were high quality, some not so much. What do you have? What model and what else is written on the gun?

[wv109323]

All CD's were imported by Daly. They never manufactured any gun to my knowledge. You should be able to find who made it and buy a replacement spring. I have a CD Field Grade O/U. It is decent but not one of the O/U made by Miroku in Japan.

[W.R.Buchanan]

It is a matter of finding the right person to do the job.

Goto www.trapshooters.com. Goto the for sale section and find "Jim Flynn." He makes replacement spring kits for just about every shotgun known to man, and they are not too expensive. They should be drop in replacements for your existing springs so you should be able to install them.

End of problem.

Randy

[andremajic]

I got a good story about not working on a spring without taking a break. I filed and shaped and bent a piece of spring stock to make a custom spring.

Drilled and tapped the screw hole.

Polished it up really nice so there wouldn't be any stress fractures, heated it up just till yellowish orange and then quenched it.

After polishing it up again and while inspecting the mirror shine that anyone would have been proud of, I absentmindedly started flexing the spring.............SNAP!

OH C%$#%$%!!!

(Still needed to temper it and had forgotten how brittle spring stock can be. )

I would recommend you continue working at it and buy more spring stock. It's not expensive, and eventually you'll get it right. You can buy it direct from AJAX WIRE SPECIALTY Co. or buy it from the middleman for more money. (brownells)

Patience is a virtue worth exercising! Go at it slow and you'll make less mistakes. (Notice, I didn't say you won't make them!)

[M-Tecs]

If you were local I would do it for you for free. Thirty years as a toolmaker and part time smith makes this type of stuff simple. Springs can be fun.

[Walter Laich]

Finally got to the barrels of the SxS
One barrel: Liberty Coach 12 ga (proof mark of some type)
other barrel: K.B.I. HBG.PA. ASTAR
.
Liberty is on right lock.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

96503

Polished it up really nice so there wouldn't be any stress fractures, heated it up just till yellowish orange and then quenched it.

After polishing it up again and while inspecting the mirror shine that anyone would have been proud of, I absentmindedly started flexing the spring.............SNAP!


Dohhh! Orange or yellow is more than you need, and may damage the steel on its own. Red is fine. Then I wouldn't even try to polish in the newly quenched condition. Immerse it in ordinary lubricating oil in a tin lid or something, take it outdoors, and ignite it with a torch. When it has all burned away, you have a good spring... probably... covered in disgusting greasy soot. But it's worth it.

Whether gunsmithing, personal or paid for, is worth it depends on what the gun means to you. My Charles Daly was one of their early Prussian imports, and required new hammers made from the lost wax castings from www.peterdyson.co.uk (whom I heartily recommend.) It is a pestilentially difficult job making square holes which get the height of rebounding hammers right. But it carries the premium that it in the UK a pre-1939 10ga with the older 2⅞in. case is freely ownable and importable as an antique. You can't put a price on the fun of applying to have it placed on my licence for shooting, and saying first "No, I don't need to acquire it. I've already got it", and next "Oh yes, I can."

I bought my 12ga George Gibbs very cheaply and unseen in an Australian auction. It was described as pitted, but a 47/64in. hand reamer drilled and silver soldered to a steel rod, and followed by a lead lap and fine abrasive, fixed that while enlarging the bore well within the proof-house regulations. I also had to lathe-turn a replacement for a broken striker. Both of those could be done at a price by most gunsmiths. But the operating rod for the automatic safety was worn until it sometimes went on and sometimes not, which has the reek of death about it, and it was of a complicated shape, to fit in a slot in the topstrap without removing any extra wood. The thought of paying to having one made by Gibbs makes me feel limp, but I held the thin part between copper sheet to avoid annealing, silver soldered a high speed steel extension to the end, and stoned it till it was no longer too long. For that I got a cheap English sidelock shotgun, which apart from being non-ejector is about as good as they (yes, they) make them today. It may be my sole case of gunsmithing making economic sense.

I also bought an ivory-butted Belgian Spirlet revolver very cheaply, minus the hammer and trigger-guard, and the latter has the complicated bifurcated rear end of the period. So I carved both of those from steel with my bare hands. You can see it about a third of the way down this page, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20spirlet%20fr.htm (which is well worth chopping back to the original www.littlegun.be for anything Belgian.) This one, by any process of logic, goes into the needing your head examined school of gunsmithing, and may cause you to get it. I would never dare to calculate what the same number of hours would earn in my less than plutocratic employment. In fact it is better if you forget to count the hours.

[waksupi]

Long time, no see! Welcome back!


96503
Dohhh! Orange or yellow is more than you need, and may damage the steel on its own. Red is fine. Then I wouldn't even try to polish in the newly quenched condition. Immerse it in ordinary lubricating oil in a tin lid or something, take it outdoors, and ignite it with a torch. When it has all burned away, you have a good spring... probably... covered in disgusting greasy soot. But it's worth it.

Whether gunsmithing, personal or paid for, is worth it depends on what the gun means to you. My Charles Daly was one of their early Prussian imports, and required new hammers made from the lost wax castings from www.peterdyson.co.uk (whom I heartily recommend.) It is a pestilentially difficult job making square holes which get the height of rebounding hammers right. But it carries the premium that it in the UK a pre-1939 10ga with the older 2⅞in. case is freely ownable and importable as an antique. You can't put a price on the fun of applying to have it placed on my licence for shooting, and saying first "No, I don't need to acquire it. I've already got it", and next "Oh yes, I can."

I bought my 12ga George Gibbs very cheaply and unseen in an Australian auction. It was described as pitted, but a 47/64in. hand reamer drilled and silver soldered to a steel rod, and followed by a lead lap and fine abrasive, fixed that while enlarging the bore well within the proof-house regulations. I also had to lathe-turn a replacement for a broken striker. Both of those could be done at a price by most gunsmiths. But the operating rod for the automatic safety was worn until it sometimes went on and sometimes not, which has the reek of death about it, and it was of a complicated shape, to fit in a slot in the topstrap without removing any extra wood. The thought of paying to having one made by Gibbs makes me feel limp, but I held the thin part between copper sheet to avoid annealing, silver soldered a high speed steel extension to the end, and stoned it till it was no longer too long. For that I got a cheap English sidelock shotgun, which apart from being non-ejector is about as good as they (yes, they) make them today. It may be my sole case of gunsmithing making economic sense.

I also bought an ivory-butted Belgian Spirlet revolver very cheaply, minus the hammer and trigger-guard, and the latter has the complicated bifurcated rear end of the period. So I carved both of those from steel with my bare hands. You can see it about a third of the way down this page, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20spirlet%20fr.htm (which is well worth chopping back to the original www.littlegun.be for anything Belgian.) This one, by any process of logic, goes into the needing your head examined school of gunsmithing, and may cause you to get it. I would never dare to calculate what the same number of hours would earn in my less than plutocratic employment. In fact it is better if you forget to count the hours.

[WallyM3]

Before heat treating, break all sharp edges.

[andremajic]

96503
Dohhh! Orange or yellow is more than you need, and may damage the steel on its own. Red is fine. Then I wouldn't even try to polish in the newly quenched condition. Immerse it in ordinary lubricating oil in a tin lid or something, take it outdoors, and ignite it with a torch. When it has all burned away, you have a good spring... probably... covered in disgusting greasy soot. But it's worth it.

Whether gunsmithing, personal or paid for, is worth it depends on what the gun means to you. My Charles Daly was one of their early Prussian imports, and required new hammers made from the lost wax castings from www.peterdyson.co.uk (whom I heartily recommend.) It is a pestilentially difficult job making square holes which get the height of rebounding hammers right. But it carries the premium that it in the UK a pre-1939 10ga with the older 2⅞in. case is freely ownable and importable as an antique. You can't put a price on the fun of applying to have it placed on my licence for shooting, and saying first "No, I don't need to acquire it. I've already got it", and next "Oh yes, I can."

I bought my 12ga George Gibbs very cheaply and unseen in an Australian auction. It was described as pitted, but a 47/64in. hand reamer drilled and silver soldered to a steel rod, and followed by a lead lap and fine abrasive, fixed that while enlarging the bore well within the proof-house regulations. I also had to lathe-turn a replacement for a broken striker. Both of those could be done at a price by most gunsmiths. But the operating rod for the automatic safety was worn until it sometimes went on and sometimes not, which has the reek of death about it, and it was of a complicated shape, to fit in a slot in the topstrap without removing any extra wood. The thought of paying to having one made by Gibbs makes me feel limp, but I held the thin part between copper sheet to avoid annealing, silver soldered a high speed steel extension to the end, and stoned it till it was no longer too long. For that I got a cheap English sidelock shotgun, which apart from being non-ejector is about as good as they (yes, they) make them today. It may be my sole case of gunsmithing making economic sense.

I also bought an ivory-butted Belgian Spirlet revolver very cheaply, minus the hammer and trigger-guard, and the latter has the complicated bifurcated rear end of the period. So I carved both of those from steel with my bare hands. You can see it about a third of the way down this page, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20spirlet%20fr.htm (which is well worth chopping back to the original www.littlegun.be for anything Belgian.) This one, by any process of logic, goes into the needing your head examined school of gunsmithing, and may cause you to get it. I would never dare to calculate what the same number of hours would earn in my less than plutocratic employment. In fact it is better if you forget to count the hours.

Have you tried making a square broaching cutter to press thru a round hole, using an arbor press? Much cleaner and you won't tear your hair out.

[Goatwhiskers]

FWIW, the C. Daly doubles that I knew back in the '60's and '70's were manufactured in Japan and were quality shotguns. The Dalys that you find today were manufactured in Turkey for an importer under the Daly name. IMHO the Turks have some kind of problem with metallurgy, when you have a good one it's good as any, but they seem to break parts and parts are no longer available as the importer went out of business. I won't allow one in my shop. GW

[KCSO]

Get Gunsmith Kinks #2 from Brownels and read and practice the chapter on spring making. Everyone who can really make springs has their own ways of tempering and drawing the stock. I use the lead pot method as I usually have a pot ready to go in the shop. Don't be surprised if it takes a few trys to get a good spring.

[Col4570]

After quenching my Springs at Cherry Red in Oil,I dip in Oil and burn the oil off twice with the propane lamp just flickering,when the second application of oil burns off drop the spring in the Oil and allow to cool.I did this for my last Gun lock for the Mainspring,Sear spring and frizzen Spring.All still performing well.I must admit in my early days I had some heartbreaking times until I understood the method.
Good luck.