Funny thing happened making Felix

[44man]

I have been testing lubes in the bitter cold so wanted to make a softer Felix by reducing the beeswax from my summer loads.
I was doing the oils in a small pan, then started adding the Ivory, seemed to be my normal amount, one TBS. The soap is hard to melt of course but somehow I had too much. I was stirring and trying to keep the heat right, need to go near the flame and lift the pan a little, the kitchen stove even on low needs care here.
All of a sudden the oils jelled, looked like Vaseline, had some flakes of soap left.
I poured and scraped it into the melted beeswax, stirred it a while and added the lanolin. I had boolits set to pan lube so poured there first, the rest into another plastic food tray. I had flakes of soap left in the pan so just wiped it out with a paper towel. Some was in the second tray but settled to the bottom, I needed a filter.
After all cooled, the lube is perfect, got the boolits out with my kake cutter.
I put the pans in the freezer to break the lube out of the pans and it did not harden much at all, seems to be exactly the same as room temp lube. It is sticky and flexible.
Have I hit on something by accident? Or is the oil supposed to jell?
I will shoot some today, it is bitter cold out.
I will let you know.
Felix, can you comment?

[44man]

It works! I posted in wheelguns.

[B.C.Jay]

I've had it gel on me too. Don't know what I did differently but could have been too much soap.

[geargnasher]

You just made real grease in your kitchen! You took the mixture to the actual melt point of the soap, which is about 460F. Then when taking off the heat and losing just a few degrees, the soap/oil mix "gelled", forming a sodium grease matrix. Basically you made true sodium soap grease whereas most of the time when making Felix lube we just "dissolve" the sodium into the oils, never reaching the melt point where the sodium stearate/salt/soap actually breaks down and then re-links with the oils.

Metal soap grease (based on stearates, 12-hydroxystearates, or mixtures of sodium, calcium, lithium, aluminum, antimony, barium, etc.) are made this way except it's done with un-reacted components at lower temperatures. That tub of lithium chassis grease in your garage is made from approximately 30-weight oil, lithium hydroxide, stearic acid, and additives all saponified in the pot just like making homemade soap, then the water is cooked off and it's milled in a grease mill before packing into tubs and tubes. Railroads used a very firm "brick" sodium grease to lube the journal boxes, and the final result is a soap grease that's very similar to the gelled mix you made in your pan. Once the acid/base saponification reaction occurs, the metal salt (or stearate, or "soap", like Ivory), the melt point becomes very high. If we could make Felix lube with just sodium hydroxide (caustic lye), stearic acid (wax candle hardener), and the oils, we could make the "grease" part at about 200 degrees and just boil off the water and add the wax. The problem is getting the mixture exact so there's no leftover acids or bases, so we kitchen chemists just use the pre-reacted, pH-neutral metal soap/salt/stearate (Ivory) and heat it enough to melt into the oils. The end result is a fine, fibrous, microscopic web or "sponge" saturated more or less permanently with the lubricating oil, same as industrial/automotive lubricating greases.

I have found no real difference between shooting FWFL that's had the soap fully melted into the oils and "gelled" and versions where it has simply been allowed to dissolve on its own. I tend to think that fully melting/gelling is some very good insurance against castor oil bleed, since the binding of the oil is significantly improved on a microscopic level. One disadvantage is getting that gelled grease to blend in well with the wax, since the grease tends to just form blobs in the melted beeswax like making Lithi-Bee, since the wax itself can't stand being heated enough to actually melt the soap matrix.

If you have little clearish sodium grease specks or "blobs" in the mix, just re-melt, mix, and cool a few times and it will smooth out completely.

Gear

[felix]

Maybe you actually made a version of Vaseline? Anyway, all is well by your shooting results! Who knows, maybe the initial ingredients have changed over time, for the better this time. Try making it again (exactly the same way) in three months and see if there is any difference in the produce. ... felix

[felix]

Way to go, Ian!! ... felix

[btroj]

Ian, how many times have you watched that gelling take place? I know I have seen it enough times.

I bet that lube won't have any issues with oils bleeding out.

[geargnasher]

I time or two, Brad. Done it with aluminum and three different lithium salts, too. Fascinates me every time: "OOOOOHHH! Presto! More jell-o! (often followed by) Dang it, used too much stearate again, made gummy bear base, GRRRRR."

Gear

[Bzcraig]

Ok, is what Gear said good or bad?

[btroj]

It is good, very, very good. It means the oils and the soap are locked together into a grease. The soap will then be more able to control the oils and prevent them from bleeding out of the lube.

What it also means is that the heat was high, between 450 and 500 degrees. Scary hot, easy to get a burn if it splashes on you. Been there, done that. Still have a scar.

Like Gear said though, he hasn't noticed a different between the lube where a true grease was formed and those where the soap was simply dissolved into the oils. It is probably better if a grease is formed but if not the lube still works very well.

[44man]

95162I was worried about mixing with the wax but it went right in and blended in the double boiler.
I don't know how hot the oil got because I kept the smoke as low as I could by just getting near the flame a second and lifting the pan above it as soon as I seen a few wifts of smoke. I have to hold the pan off the fire the whole time.
The flakes of soap left are still white, not a whole lot and there is none mixed in the lube cake, they just settled.
I seen one difference in that after a time in the freezer, it never got rock hard but I don't know if it was because of the reduction in wax or not. I went from 8 oz to 6 oz.
The cake was hard to get out of the plastic tray, it kept bending with the tray. The cake that I pan lubed the boolits in had all the holes, when I folded it in half it did not crack.
I had the wax melted in the double boiler so it was only 212*. Cutting the cake shows an even blend throughout.
I really like the results and can't wait for hot weather so I can compare more.

[btroj]

I will be very interested to see how it does in hot weather. Will the reduction in wax make it more prone to lube purging?

[geargnasher]

I usually use 7 oz. per batch and add an extra tablespoon of either castor oil or Vaseline in the winter. 6-ounces and the regular oil amounts ought to be about perfect, sometimes the 7-ounce batch gets a little dry.

Gear

[44man]

It is pretty hard to make Felix NOT shoot. I was satisfied with what I always made but it has been unusually cold here for a long time. This has been a strange winter. Most years it snows and in a few days it is gone, this year the snow has not left the ground and has actually dried out as the cold evaporates the moisture.
It gave me the chance to play more because it has been about 57 to 58* with humidity running 29 to 37% depending on what side I am on, in my basement for a long time and my lubes got hard to work with. Seems funny to need a vest on at my bench.

[Mugs]

44 Man
Sounds like all my years in Alaska.
Mugs

[44man]

I will be very interested to see how it does in hot weather. Will the reduction in wax make it more prone to lube purging?
Actually, I want ALL lube to purge at the muzzle exit and just work while the boolit is the seal in the bore.
Purge is hard for me to understand while a boolit is in the gun unless a boolit slumps to force lube out of the gap.
I really find it funny when guys find lube on sky screens or a close target and complain, it is WHAT YOU WANT! Get that stuff off the boolit quick so you don't lose half here and there.

[btroj]

I am speaking more of purging like is seen with an overly wet lube in heat. Shoot some of the old versions of MML in 95 degree weather and it leaves a wet bore. About every 5 to 7 shots you get a flyer as the bullet purges the wet goo from the bore.

I agree entirely on bullets flinging lube at the muzzle. I want the bullet clean within a few inches of the crown. I have seen enough loob boogers on 100 yard targets to tell me that if it isn't gone at the muzzle then you don't know when it will be gone. Not good.

[44man]

I am speaking more of purging like is seen with an overly wet lube in heat. Shoot some of the old versions of MML in 95 degree weather and it leaves a wet bore. About every 5 to 7 shots you get a flyer as the bullet purges the wet goo from the bore.

I agree entirely on bullets flinging lube at the muzzle. I want the bullet clean within a few inches of the crown. I have seen enough loob boogers on 100 yard targets to tell me that if it isn't gone at the muzzle then you don't know when it will be gone. Not good.
Now you have an explanation I can see, thank you.
Loss of friction in the bore is very bad.
I find the same with Ben's Red in a revolver, too slippery. But the stuff has worked fine in a rifle. I see signs of a slippery lube breaking case tension before good ignition in a revolver.

[btroj]

Revolvers and rifles have different lube needs.

We saw that in the lube quest. A lube that was awesome in handguns left a nasty fouling in rifles.

We should send you some TnT to try and see what you think in your handguns. It sure won't be too wet!

Constant friction is a big key in rifle lubes for accuracy. It is what makes CR bad in cold weather and what makes a really slick lube bad too.

[44man]

Friction is not understood and how important it is. I learned long ago when a patched round ball started to shoot bad. Talked to Bill Large, he told me a bore can be "shot smooth" so old timers would plug the rifle and fill it with urine overnight to etch the steel.
I used vinegar for the same results.
Nobody ever got a chrome lined ML to shoot good with a patched round ball. I talk about a 5 shot, one ragged hole at 50 yards.

[btroj]

Yep. There is a reason match grade barrels are only lapped to a certain finish and not to a finer finish or polish.

We really need to stop thinking of bullet lube as a lube. It does far more than lubricate and lubrication is actually pretty far down the list.

[357maximum]

........small amounts of pine pitch has been used in boolit lubes by more then one lube alchemist.......play with lubes long enough and the need for less slippery will show itself in obvious ways.......the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round........I just wish them wheels would show a consistent nature ALWAYS.

[btroj]

Less slipperiness is generally good.

Like I said, we need to stop calling it a lube, the noobs all want to use slicker than snot stuff that just isn't a good idea.

[357maximum]

...yep, that was me agreeing with you.

Some of my early efforts to make things better were so darn slimy/slippery, that after realizing how wrong I was I felt ashamed of myself. Not sure what makes a new alchemist think more slip is needed, but it is a running theme that most fall victim to....weird just plain weird.

[smokeywolf]

This is me learning something by keeping my ears open and my mouth shut. Keep talking, I'm listening (reading) and learning.

smokeywolf

[btroj]

Smokey, there isn't much more to say. People keep wanting to use extremely slick stuff in lubes because they want to lubricate the bullet. Not good.

Our lubes need to do many things but lubrication is, in my opinion, way down the list. Preventing leading is easy.

Lube needs to flow, needs to stick to the bullet for handling but fling off at the muzzle. Ideally it would be a solid at rest and almost a liquid under pressure. It needs to keep a seal on the bore and be able to flow into gaps along the lands and whenever the bore gets uneven.

It needs to be able to flow and maintain seal at what Run calls the relaxation point- the point at which the pressure drops just enough to let the bullet alloy relax and shrink away from the bore a tiny, tiny amount. This is where matching pressure curve and alloy strength matter. Is this where fouling or leading issues down the bore quite a ways comes from. Hmmmm

Prob all most important of all the lube needs to leave a very consistent bore condition. It can't leave a residue that builds then gets pushed out every few shots, this is classic lube purging. It should leave a slight film to help with the next shot but also leave a residue that doesn't change significantly over time, this helps prevent first shot flyers.

I am sure I left put many other things we need a lube to be and do.

Making a lube that prevents leading is simple. Making one that shoots well over time is an entirely different proposition. Small changes matter. If you make a lube, follow the recipe exactly. The recipe was probably the results of lots of effort, time, and money. It is the result of lots of flux making.

I know Run mixed a bunch of lube batches together for handgun use and I think Mike did likewise. Don't be like them, please........

Here ends the confessions of a guy who went down the wrong path. I hope others choose wisely and avoid the mess, stink, and expense that is lube alchemy.

[bhn22]

To be honest, I'm getting a lot out of this thread, but Ians first post made my head hurt a bit the first couple of times I read it. I'm just not that deep into lube. However, It appears to be time to buy a second sizer so I can experiment with, and more fully comprehend what I'm reading. The "gummy bear" remark helped. It's a viscosity thing. And now... a nap!

[btroj]

To be honest, I'm getting a lot out of this thread, but Ians first post made my head hurt a bit the first couple of times I read it. I'm just not that deep into lube. However, It appears to be time to buy a second sizer so I can experiment with, and more fully comprehend what I'm reading. The "gummy bear" remark helped. It's a viscosity thing. And now... a nap!

Come on it to Omaha some day, I can fix that urge to mess with lube.

When Ian said the sodium grease is fibrous he ain't kidding. That stuff looks like it has fiber glass in it or something. Weird stuff.

Somehow I will never be the same after learning some of this stuff. I am mentally scarred, not to mention the scars on my thumb from hot grease from lube making.

Oh, one BIG suggestion, if anyone ever suggests making a sodium grease from ATF and sodium stearate be sure to do it outside. Making it in the kitchen when the wife is home, bad idea. Really bad.

[felix]

Come on it to Omaha some day, I can fix that urge to mess with lube.

Yeah, so can Manning riding herd over his wild horses. So, let's see how he can bypass a bunch of hungry hawks when en route to Omaha this Sunday! I bet he changes his called-out destination to maybe Seattle instead? What a joke. Can't believe I will watch that game. ... felix

[btroj]

Felix, the entire Manning "Omaha" thing is getting stupid around here.

Luckily bhn22 is only 50 miles away, I think I can cure his lube curiosity.

[bhn22]

I still have most of the "Felix" lube I made in the "Shooters.com" days. I made a triple batch. One thing I'll never try again is synthetic "gun" grease, mixed 50/50 with beeswax. It smells so incredibly horrid that I didn't even try to use it. I just tossed it out. Still, the State Patrol kept cadaver dogs in my area trying to find the decomposing bodies.

I eventually moved away.

[btroj]

Synthetics generally are bad. Some synthetic oils are good.

Worst I ever had was that ATF grease. ATF at 450 degrees is nasty stuff.

[JSH]

Mine always went to a jell. Slimy and like snot.
Jeff