38 brass sizing

[RedRabbit]

A real simple question ,is it necessary to full length size 38 brass and what is the purpose of doing it? I have two different sets of die's RCBS and Lyman's,both are 3 set die's and both leave parts on the brass.Maybe these are just worn out /I have tired spray lube and case lube, I've cleaned the dies .but still get marks. If I use the RCBS dies the second step die removes the primer and size's the neck without making any marks.The Lyman dies first step removes the primer and full lengh size's the out side out the brass. Maybe I'm just screwed up or am I doing something wrong????Thanks,I appreicate all the help you guys give me..:???:

[Bayou52]

A real simple question ,is it necessary to full length size 38 brass and what is the purpose of doing it? I have two different sets of die's RCBS and Lyman's,both are 3 set die's and both leave parts on the brass.Maybe these are just worn out /I have tired spray lube and case lube, I've cleaned the dies .but still get marks. If I use the RCBS dies the second step die removes the primer and size's the neck without making any marks.The Lyman dies first step removes the primer and full lengh size's the out side out the brass. Maybe I'm just screwed up or am I doing something wrong????Thanks,I appreicate all the help you guys give me..:???:

Your dies should not be leaving marks on the brass. You said you cleaned your dies. Are your cases clean/tumbled? If both dies and cases are clean, but the FL dies are leaving marks, I would contact customer service at RCBS and discuss the issue. They will likely have you send in the FL sizing die for examination. RCBS has stellar customer service. If there is a problem with the die, they will make it right.

I am unfamiliiar with Lyman's customer service and don't have any of their dies, but it wouldn't hurt to call them, too, to discuss the problem.

[plainsman456]

If the rcbs dies are scratching the brass sent them back and they will polish them or replace them.

The dies should not do that.

[BK7saum]

I have had grit accumulate on the inside of steel dies. Might happen with carbide as well. The grit and catches a little bit of brass with each sizing. Polishing with flitz or jb bore paste solved the problem

[bhn22]

Steel or carbide sizing dies? Steel dies fell out of favor long ago for a couple of reasons. First of all, the need to lube the cases before sizing. Second, they would pick up dirt and grit, which would imbed itself in the dies and scratch the cases.

[WallyM3]

Are these scratches in the case the "long" way or rings around the circumference?

[RedRabbit]

The rcbs dies are from1973,don't know if they are steel or carbide.These scratches are the long way on the case's.. I've polished the inside of the die with fine steel wooland they look great. I doubt that rcbs would do anything with these older die's,but I'll call them ,I know they have a great tech dept and are very helpful. All my cases are cleaned /tumbled.

[Ben]

If the die is a conventional steel sizing die and anyone has tryied to size brass that had sand stuck to the walls of the cases, that sand can cut grooves on the interior walls of your die.

Then any case sent into the die for F/L resizing will have vertical scratches on the walls of the case also.

Depending on the depth of the scratches, if it is very deep, the die may have to be " deep 6'd ".

If the scratches inside the die are shallow, the die may be polished and salvaged.

[billyb]

Carbide dies will pickup dirt metal bits be it brass or nickel plating. First try cleaning the dies with hoppes, if you still get scratches try some wet or dry 600 grit paper. roll some of the paper up and put some oil on the paper and push and pull through the die. clean real good then try sizing apiece of brass to see if this fixes your problem. You need to have fairly clean brass before you run them through the sizing die. Yes sizing 38 brass is needed for fit in your cylinder and for boolit pull. If the cleaning does not fix your problem contact RCBS and they will polish the die for you. I type slow I see you have older dies. look at the entrance of the sizer die and if you see a ring you have carbide dies if you see a straight wall they are steel. Bill

[Bayou52]

The rcbs dies are from1973,don't know if they are steel or carbide.These scratches are the long way on the case's.. I've polished the inside of the die with fine steel wooland they look great. I doubt that rcbs would do anything with these older die's,but I'll call them ,I know they have a great tech dept and are very helpful. All my cases are cleaned /tumbled.

FYI -

RCBS will stand by their products regardless of their age.

I recently called and was given replacement parts for my 40 year od RC press free of any charges, including shipping. Their customer servicfe is the reason I seek out their products for purchase.

[DLCTEX]

I don't know if there were carbide dies in 1973. If there were I never heard of them back then.

[CastingFool]

I run all my pistol cases through my tumbler before resizing. Gets that gritty residue off the cases.

[LUBEDUDE]

I don't know if there were carbide dies in 1973. If there were I never heard of them back then.

That's when I bought my first Carbide Die, 1973, and it was an RCBS.

[WallyM3]

IIRC, I bought a .45 ACP carbide sizer out on John's Island, SC about that time. RCBS, too.

[LUBEDUDE]

Wally, you jogged my memory -

Got mine in 44 mag from Nix Shooting Supplies in Lewisville, Tx.

I reckon they're not around anymore. Anyone from Lewisville that confirm ?

[williamwaco]

Wally, you jogged my memory -

Got mine in 44 mag from Nix Shooting Supplies in Lewisville, Tx.

I reckon they're not around anymore. Anyone from Lewisville that confirm ?



WOW.

A blast from the past.

No they have been gone for years.
Yes, you will still find them if you google them but they are not there.

[WallyM3]

OT but, I recently visited Middletown, CT where I did a good deal of business with a large local LGS. They were in a new, purpose built building which is now boarded up. Weeds sprout from the parking lot.

The sight blackened the rest of my day.

[Char-Gar]

I favor older steel dies and load lots of 38 Specials. It is not unusual for the cases to show striations from the sizing. It is not a concern unless the scratch is deep enough to catch a fingernail run across it.

Clean your dies well and get a bore mop and put that in the chuck of an electric drill. Take a strip of paper shop towel (not the kitchen kind) and wrap it around the mop so that it is a good tight fit in the die. Slather the paper with a polishing compound like Mother's Mag Polish you get at the auto supply store. Start the drill and run the mop/towel/Mothers in and out of the die a dozen or so time. Then clean the die with isopropyl alchohol, lube some cases and size them. You will be pleased with the results.

Thereafter clean your dies on a regular basis and clean the cases well of grit and oil before sizing them. Properly cared for steel dies will give a lifetime of service and work the brass much less for longer case life.

[LUBEDUDE]

WOW.

A blast from the past.

No they have been gone for years.
Yes, you will still find them if you google them but they are not there.

Thanks WW!:grin:

[ravelode]

I have scratched dies on occasion as I've been loading ammo since the late 60's I usually wrap fine grade 0000 steel wool on an old bore brush and drill spin it in the steel die with some WD40

[LUBEDUDE]

Redrabbit the OP did not mention case prep. BillyB touched on it.

I load over 25k of 38 sp per year on the same set of dies. Going on 14 yrs with said set and volume. Much of the brass is mixed range brass. The only die maintenance has been cleaning.
Thus said, these dies have seen some hard use.

I've never had striations or marks as discussed. I believe the reason why is because of careful attention to case cleaning beforehand.

I don't think it matters which method of case prep you use just so your cases are clean.

By not cleaning, those semi-micro particles of dirt and rock under hundreds of pounds of force over and over WIll wear your dies which in turn wear your soft brass.

[Airman Basic]

FYI -

RCBS will stand by their products regardless of their age.

I recently called and was given replacement parts for my 40 year od RC press free of any charges, including shipping. Their customer servicfe is the reason I seek out their products for purchase.
What broke on your Rockchucker? Mine's about that old and I've abused it every way possible. Just curious.

[Char-Gar]

When Lyman came out with the first affordable carbide 38/357 sizing die about 1965 or so, I bought one and though it was the neatest things and I didn't have to lube cases. After years of use, the fact that it sized the cases with no taper all the way down to the head began to bother me.

The older steel dies sized the top part of the case .370 a short distance to hold the bullet and from there the sized case tapered to .379 just ahead of the rim. The carbide dies sized the case .370 all the way from the mouth to the where the head began. This resulted in a case that gave shorter life and did not contribute to accuracy with the rounds flopping around in the cylinder.

Over the years, I have hunted up three RCBS steel sizing dies, a 1958, 1959 and 1966. I polished them all up as per my previous post and am a happy camper. I doubt if I will ever need my two backup sizing dies, but the are there should they be needed.

I should say the carbide 45 Colt sizing dies also create a problem with over sizing of the brass and I have older RCBS steel dies that produce a tapered case for better case life and accuracy. I also three of these.

I also have older RCBS steel sizing dies in 44 Special and 44 Magnum and 45 ACP. There is no practical difference between the steel and carbide 45 ACP dies as they both produce a straight case of the exact same dimensions.

I am not a high volume loader with a progressive press, so the old steel dies suit my needs quite well. I just post this for information, as many reloaders don't have any experience with the old steel dies and think the only difference is just the need for case lube.

[r1kk1]

Char-Gar

I read your posts with great interest.

Full wadcutter bullets in 32, 38, and 44 calibers are of great interest for me. It's amazing what a good wadcutter load can do out of a Ransom rest. I don't own a Ransom yet but I've seen some 25 and 50 yard groups that were very nice!

I'm on the hunt for some steel dies and open them up to what I need.

Take care

r1kk1

[Char-Gar]

r1kk1

I have no experience with 32 nor 44 wadcutter bullets but do with 38s. If you get serious about those critters here are a couple of issues to consider, both the result of the deeper seating into the case required by full weight wadcutter bullets.

1. A wadcutter bullet will hit the case wall taper causing uneven tension and an uneven release of the bullets both of which are not conducive to high grade accuracy.

2. Factory match wadcutter ammo comes in cases that have longer parallel sides to get around No. 1 above. They are called "wadcutter brass" and are not the same as standard brass. They can be difficult to locate as currently they are only available in factory match ammo.

3. Then there is the issue of needing to expand the case deeper to accept the bullets. This requires a longer expanding plug. At one time (but no longer) RCBS sold these for use for the hollow base wadcutter and measured .3585 to prevent crushing the think skirt on the bullets. For solid base wadcutters a standard expander can be modified for a deeper reach into the case. I have modified an older RCBS .357 expander in my lathe for that purpose. I left a short .360 section much like an M die to help in seating the bullet without belling the case mouth.

I attatch a pic of some RCBS 38/357 expanders to show what I mean. From left to right, they are 1. Older .357 expander, 2. current .357 expander, 3. older .357 expander modified for a deeper reach and 4. special .3585 long expander for HB wadcutters.

This stuff is for the real accuracy buff and you seem to be so oriented. This level of fuss and feathers isn't necessary for the guy loading ammo for plinking, small game hunting or social purposes.

[r1kk1]

Thanks Char-Gar!

It's a good point you made about wadcutter brass. I can see how a soft slug can be deformed in one of the ways you mentioned!

I may have to check in to CH4D and see if I can get expanders made for my dies.

You're right. This is not for the average volume shooter. For me, shooting wadcutters in the calibers I mentioned, is very relaxing and meditative.

r1kk1

[robertbank]

I favor older steel dies and load lots of 38 Specials. It is not unusual for the cases to show striations from the sizing. It is not a concern unless the scratch is deep enough to catch a fingernail run across it.

Clean your dies well and get a bore mop and put that in the chuck of an electric drill. Take a strip of paper shop towel (not the kitchen kind) and wrap it around the mop so that it is a good tight fit in the die. Slather the paper with a polishing compound like Mother's Mag Polish you get at the auto supply store. Start the drill and run the mop/towel/Mothers in and out of the die a dozen or so time. Then clean the die with isopropyl alchohol, lube some cases and size them. You will be pleased with the results.

Thereafter clean your dies on a regular basis and clean the cases well of grit and oil before sizing them. Properly cared for steel dies will give a lifetime of service and work the brass much less for longer case life.

Thanks Charles you just saved me some money. I have a 30-30 RCBS sizing die that needs your treatment.

Take Care

Bob

[Skunk1]

The rcbs dies are from1973,don't know if they are steel or carbide.These scratches are the long way on the case's.. I've polished the inside of the die with fine steel wooland they look great. I doubt that rcbs would do anything with these older die's,but I'll call them ,I know they have a great tech dept and are very helpful. All my cases are cleaned /tumbled.


I have 2 die sets from 1973. Neither are carbide. I also have a rcbs jr3 from 1973. They just sent me a new spent primer cup and primer arm, free of charge, for it. Rcbs company to deal with.

[karlrudin]

now I have a simple question, can I use 357 magnum dies for 38 special. is there any special considerations etc

[robertbank]

Yes you can and no there isn't. One is just longer than the other.

Bob

[karlrudin]

Yes you can and no there isn't. One is just longer than the other.

Bob

Thank you, was hoping not to have to buy both sets of dies. Got a 357 recently but wanted to work up to it using 38 special. Knew there was a case sized difference, just didn't know if there was going to be a need for different dies. Only the second pistol I've owned. The first one being a cz-52. Now there's a world of difference. :)

[Shiloh]

If the rcbs dies are scratching the brass sent them back and they will polish them or replace them.

The dies should not do that.

And if there is something wrong with the dies, RCBS will make it right. Superior customer service from them. Dillon learned about customer service from RCBS.

Shiloh

[Char-Gar]

now I have a simple question, can I use 357 magnum dies for 38 special. is there any special considerations etc

Well, yes and no, depending on which make and type of dies you are taking about.

With carbide sizing dies, the length of the case does not matter as it all passes trough the carbide ring at the bottom of the die. These dies are sold as 38/357 sizing dies.

With older steel dies that produce a tapered case, it can make a difference. RCBS and others made different dies for the 38 Special and 357 Magnum so each case length would had the correct taper. RCBS also supplied a spacer ring that went beneath the die, so it could be used for either length case. The spacer was placed under the die lock ring for the longer case and removed for the shorter case.

All expanding and seating dies I know of have enough adjustment to be used with either case length.

[karlrudin]

Well, yes and no, depending on which make and type of dies you are taking about.

With carbide sizing dies, the length of the case does not matter as it all passes trough the carbide ring at the bottom of the die. These dies are sold as 38/357 sizing dies.

With older steel dies that produce a tapered case, it can make a difference. RCBS and others made different dies for the 38 Special and 357 Magnum so each case length would had the correct taper. RCBS also supplied a spacer ring that went beneath the die, so it could be used for either length case. The spacer was placed under the die lock ring for the longer case and removed for the shorter case.

All expanding and seating dies I know of have enough adjustment to be used with either case length.

Thanks for the extra info. I will be paying attention to the way they look and what they say before I purchase. :)

[trapper9260]

As for what the poster stated .I got the same problem but there is a post somewhere that if you size nickle case with steel dies you will get what was stated.I had that happened also and I use Lyman dies also.The I found out I need to use carbide dies for nickle case.so I got a set of them now to take care of the problem and do what one stated on hone the die that is given me problems like was talk about .

[Char-Gar]

I don't know if there were carbide dies in 1973. If there were I never heard of them back then.

I bought a Lyman carbide die in 1966. It was 38/357. They were available before then from a specialty company but at a big price.

[robertbank]

If you can't remove whatever is causing the scratching, Dillon sells an excellent carbide sizing die for the .38spl/,357mag for $28. Sometimes you just have to let the old go.

Take Care

Bob

[Char-Gar]

If you can't remove whatever is causing the scratching, Dillon sells an excellent carbide sizing die for the .38spl/,357mag for $28. Sometimes you just have to let the old go.

Take Care

Bob

You don't let the old go, unless the new is better. When it comes to 38 Special sizing, new is not better.

[woody1]

Well, yes and no, depending on which make and type of dies you are taking about.

With carbide sizing dies, the length of the case does not matter as it all passes trough the carbide ring at the bottom of the die. These dies are sold as 38/357 sizing dies.

With older steel dies that produce a tapered case, it can make a difference. RCBS and others made different dies for the 38 Special and 357 Magnum so each case length would had the correct taper. RCBS also supplied a spacer ring that went beneath the die, so it could be used for either length case. The spacer was placed under the die lock ring for the longer case and removed for the shorter case.

All expanding and seating dies I know of have enough adjustment to be used with either case length.

As a follow-up to this post, I have/or had, I'll have to check, a set of RCBS 357 dies (steel) that would NOT load 38 Specials. As I recall it was a seating/ crimp problem as there wasn't enough adjustment in the seater. Gosh, I;'ll have to look and see if I still have 'em. This set was prob'ly from about 1976/7 or so. Regards, Woody

[Char-Gar]

As a follow-up to this post, I have/or had, I'll have to check, a set of RCBS 357 dies (steel) that would NOT load 38 Specials. As I recall it was a seating/ crimp problem as there wasn't enough adjustment in the seater. Gosh, I;'ll have to look and see if I still have 'em. This set was prob'ly from about 1976/7 or so. Regards, Woody

You made me curious, so I hauled out my 1980 set of RCBS steel 357 Mag dies. Although the die itself is longer than a 38 Special, you can seat and crimp bullets in 38 Special cases with it. The sizer would not prove suitable however for 38 Special cases.

[Recluse]

Wally, you jogged my memory -

Got mine in 44 mag from Nix Shooting Supplies in Lewisville, Tx.

I reckon they're not around anymore. Anyone from Lewisville that confirm ?

Nix retired and closed down his awesome store back in 2000. He called my wife and told her he was selling some personal stock and that it included a S&W hogleg Model 29 that "your husband has been lusting over for the past three years and pestering me to sell to him."

He sold her the Model 29, two bricks of Winchester Large Pistol primers, two bricks of Winchester small pistol primers for magnums, a 50-round box of .44 Special, two 20-round boxes of Hornady factory 240JHP cartridges, two brand new HKS speedloaders and an Uncle Mike's shoulder holster rig. . . all for $350 for my birthday.

I miss that gunshop. It was friggin' legendary around north Texas.

:coffee:

[robertbank]

You don't let the old go, unless the new is better. When it comes to 38 Special sizing, new is not better.

Better than what? If the old one is scratching brass and continues to do so, replace it. I have a Dillon set of .38spl/.357mag dies. What do your old better dies do that the relatively new (15 years old) Dillon dies don't do. My dies reload my .39spl/.357mag cartridges and the go bang every time. Is there something else involved here? I don't think so. I shoot about 3K rds a year shooting IDPA & plinking with my Ruger GP 100 and another 2K rds of 9MM using the Dillon carbide dies. Is there something the old dies would do to improve my shooting?

Lets not over think this to much.
Take Care

Bob

[Char-Gar]

Better than what? If the old one is scratching brass and continues to do so, replace it. I have a Dillon set of .38spl/.357mag dies. What do your old better dies do that the relatively new (15 years old) Dillon dies don't do. My dies reload my .39spl/.357mag cartridges and the go bang every time. Is there something else involved here? I don't think so. I shoot about 3K rds a year shooting IDPA & plinking with my Ruger GP 100 and another 2K rds of 9MM using the Dillon carbide dies. Is there something the old dies would do to improve my shooting?
Lets not over think this to much.
Take Care

Bob

Not over thinking Bob, just over 50 years of experience loading and shooting the 38 Special round for accuracy with a quarter million rounds to show for the effort. IDPA and plinking is pretty coarse shooting compared to trying to take out the X-Ring at 25 and 50 yards in a Bulleye pistol match. For your purposes, a carbide die is good enough and the extra little accuracy touches won't be of any help for you.

A good condition steel die that produces a proper tapered sized case can indeed improve accuracy and extend case life in those hard to come by wadcutter brass cases. I have posted about this extensively on this board and won't repeat what I have already written. I don't think you are really interested in reloading the 38 Special case for max accuracy, but if you are, there is plenty written about how it is done and the differences in dies.

There is allot more to this than producing rounds that go bang every time. There was a time when the production of highest quality and highest accuracy 38 Special ammo was a matter of great concern and quest. But those days seem to have passed and the younger set doesn't seem to have the need, interest or understand the matter.

I do realize that I am a hold over from another time, but every once in a while, somebody still has an interest in the how and why things were done "back in the day". Back in the day, precision was king and measured in small fractions of an inch at 50 yards. So much of it has been lost on younger shooters and shoved into the category of "over thinking".

Best of luck...Charles Graff

[WallyM3]

The RCBS 38 Special (only) steel dies seem pretty scarce. Could I just face 0.130" off the 357 steel sizer for the same effect?

[Char-Gar]

The RCBS 38 Special (only) steel dies seem pretty scarce. Could I just face 0.130" off the 357 steel sizer for the same effect?

I suppose you could, but they are pretty common on Ebay for around $10.00. I have yet to find one so scratched it could not be reclaimed by polishing.

[WallyM3]

I'll look before I cut. Thanks, CG.




Edit: Found a steel set in the cardboard box.

[WallyM3]

Now that I have a "vintage" set on the way, I see that Redding addresses the issue with a two-ring sizing die (for a mere $147).

[robertbank]

With all do respect Charles I still think you are over thinking the problem and after seven decades I think it is more than just youth saying this. Unless you are in the ranks of Olympic level shooting the shooters ability has more to do with his/her success in shooting tight groups than anything your steel dies are going to accomplish. I would suggest their is as much variation in internal dimensions of steel dies as there is in carbide dies. Sometimes what we observe and conclude has more to do with what we want to see and conclude.


Take Care

Bob