H110 vs Unique in a 44mag

[.429]

i loaded up some 240gr jsp with 23.5gr of H110 today and shot them out of my rifle and over my chrono. i was surprised to find that they only averaged 50fps faster than the same bullet with 13gr of Unique. the H110 had a noticeable amount more recoil. the h110 had an extreme spread of 50fps, but the Unique had an extreme spread of only 7fps!! also, H110 is a real pain in the a$$ to meter, whereas Unique meters much easier. a bottle of Unique is cheaper and with only 13gr vs 23.5gr it will last much longer for sure. this all surprised me even more because i figured the H110 would really shine in the 22" barrel and being a slower burn rate compared to the Unique. with the lighter recoil, economy, easy metering, and consistancy in fps, i think i just might try to trade off the 1.5lbs of h110 that i have left

[Larry Gibson]

Not all that surprising.

Though you might want to revisit that 13 gr Unique load under a 240 JSP. Depending on who's manual you look at it is 1 - 3 gr over max for the 44 magnum. Having pressure tested up to 12 gr Unique under a 240 XTP in the 44 Magnum I can say that Lyman's max load (that's what it is) is definitely a max load. A load of 11 gr would be more like it and would at least keep all the psi's under the SAAMI PMAP.

That 23.5 gr H110 load is .5 - 1.3 gr under max for that bullet.

Over a max load for the one and under the max load for the other would certainly account for the lack of disparity between the loads.

Larry Gibson

[.429]

my Lyman manual lists 13gr Unique as a max load and i'm not having any pressure problems. also, my Lee book lists the H110 as 23gr min and 24gr max. i respectivly disagree with ur reply :)

[Larry Gibson]

Okay, so which Lyman manual? I'm looking at the 49th edition, printed April 2010, page 302 for the 44 magnum in a rifle and page 377 for in a revolver; both list 12 gr Unique as max load with a 240 gr JSP. You might note also that on page 302 for the rifle there is exactly 300 fps difference between the Unique load and a max load of H110. That should tell you something.

And, as I stated, I have also measured the pressure myself; Lyman is correct. The 12 gr load of Unique is a max load. Lyman lists 11.7 gr Unique as max with a 240 gr cast and I'd believe that one too if you like Unique in the 44 magnum. I think you'll find the Lee manual shows 10 gr as a max load of Unique. Speer and Hornady's latest manuals do not list any loads with Unique (another clue). You can respectfully disagree but perhaps a double check on current data may be in order? Just trying to keep you and your guns safe is all.

Larry Gibson

[bhn22]

My Lyman "Pistol & Revolver Handbook" shows 11.5 gr of Unique to be tops for a 240 gr jacketed bullet. My Hornady manual shows 10.7 gr of Unique. Sierra shows 12.1 gr, and Alliant, the manufacturer of Unique shows 10.3 as maximum for that jacketed bullet weight. How old is your Lyman manual? Handgun pressures seem to be derated more and more as time goes by.

[btroj]

What they said. Get a newer manual. Please

Unique is a fine powder for mid range loads in a 44 mag but if it is giving velocities even close to H110 either the H110 load is low or the Unique load is high.

No such thing as a free lunch.

[fredj338]

Several of my 44 stick with a Unique load over 12gr. So 13gr, yeah charging hard on max, why? If you have pressure room with Unique, you probably do with H110 as well. Generally, H110 will give 100fps+ vs a max load of Unique. In short 3" bbls, things get closer, why I have pretty much given up on H110 but for long 7"-8" bbls.

[longbow]

While I cannot pressure test, field results convinced me long ago that Unique is best suited to shorter barrels and moderate loads. I started my .44 mag. shooting with a Marlin 1894, Lyman 429421 (mistake in that gun!) and Unique. Having perused a few loading manuals (mostly handgun data) it appeared that Unique was a pretty good all around powder for the .44 mag and as you noted, economical, but in fact the Unique loads in the Marlin were quite lackluster in comparison to factory ammunition.

Next I tried IMR4227 with noticeable increase in performance and flatter shooting. I tried H110 as well and while I think it produce a little more velocity with max. loads, I have other uses for 4227 so it has become my powder of choice for the .44 using boolits of 240 gr. and up.

In my experience Unique doesn't come close to either IMR4227 or H110 in the Marlin for upper end loads. Now that I have a chronograph I guess I should do some comparison shooting to check actual velocities but both H110 and IMR4227 shot much flatter than Unique (at 12.5 grs. Unique IIRC).

My experience anyway.

By the way, my old Hornady manual listed hefty powder charges for .44 mag that I for not see anymore. Heed the advice given on max load of Unique.

Longbow

[243winxb]

H110 is a real pain in the a$$ to meter, whereas Unique meters much easier.A$$ backwards imo. (reversed). 13 gr. Unique. HOT.

[bhn22]

Off the charts, at least for the newer Unique, and the latest pressure data.

[Mal Paso]

H110 meters like a dream, it's Unique that meters like gravel. Maybe something else is backwards.

[David2011]

While there are many factors that affect perceived recoil your launched weight includes the weight of the powder. H110 is adding 10.5 grains to the total weight over Unique. Do you have any 2400 to try for a comparison? It works well for heavier charges in .44 Mag.

David

[dragon813gt]

H110 meters like a dream, it's Unique that meters like gravel. Maybe something else is backwards.

I don't load 44mag so I can't comment on the load data. But something is wrong if H110 isn't metering right for you. The stuff flows like water. It is very fine and can gum up some measures but that's a quick fix.

[.429]

I don't load 44mag so I can't comment on the load data. But something is wrong if H110 isn't metering right for you. The stuff flows like water. It is very fine and can gum up some measures but that's a quick fix. i suppose the metering is fine. the gumming up and leaking is what i'm not enjoying about it

[MtGun44]

"newer Unique" - baloney. Unique is Unique, no changes in the powder
other than the standard lot to lot variation seen in all powders.

Widely reported old wives tale.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

"newer Unique" - baloney. Unique is Unique, no changes in the powder
other than the standard lot to lot variation seen in all powders.

Widely reported old wives tale.

Bill

Have to agree with Bill. Unique is still the same and other than the normal lot to lot variations (quite consistent with Unique though and such variations are low) "newer" Unique is the same as old Unique. What is different is the method of measuring pressure. The old method, C.U.P., only measured the peak pressure. Newer peizo-transducers in test fixtures with test barrels give us a much more complete picture of the time/pressure curve. Train gauges on actual commercial firearms additionally give us a much better picture of the total time/pressure curve in the firearms actually used. What is now found out with the better methods of measuring pressures is with many old recommended loads the pressures are actually higher than thought; high enough to potentially cause damage. That is why we see a reduction of some max loads with some powders in newer manuals.

Larry Gibson

[cbrick]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is accuracy. Try benching that 44 & group both the Unique & H-110 loads at 50 yards, you'll see a huge difference there.

Unique in a mag case is best served with light for caliber bullets & lower velocities. In NRA National Championship Long Range Revolver (200 meters) 23.5 Gr. H-110 with 240 gr bullets has won more championships than all other loads combined. In fact it is so common in long range it is known as the house load.

Larry is 100% correct, you are treading on very thin ice with your Unique load, in the interest of safety you really should consider backing it down. In the interest of accuracy you really should consider using the H-110 load unless of course your only goal is to make a bang, the Unique will certainly give you that, perhaps even a bit more bang than you bargained for.

The Unique load isn't cheaper if you consider the possibility of the replacement cost of the gun.

Rick

[44man]

94914I found a picture that might apply.

[44MAG#1]

Some overloads are safe depending on the gun and the pressure levels the SAAMI specs on pressure is stated for the cartridge.
Not all overloads are unsafe in some guns but are in others.
Overloads being defined as over SAAMI specs.
In this aforementioned case it is an overload.
This is not a debateable statement if anyone will just think.

[.429]

ok, the 13gr max def didn't come out of my Lyman 49th book as it does list 12gr as max (my apologies there). idk if i misread the book or if i got it somewhere else. i have used max loads before but NEVER go over max (on purpose anyway). i will back this load down to be within specs of the Lyman 49th book. i am shooting these loads out of a couple of heavy built guns, but i may disassemble them anyway just to be safe. thanks for pointing this out to me but i think some of you have misunderstood my original intent with this thread. i simply wanted to see how a hot load of Unique would compare to H110 because the H110 is such a pain to use (much more expensive as well). i havn't done any benchrest shooting yet, but both of the loads are very accurate....like minute of rabbit (50yrds, standing, open sights).

[MBTcustom]

Thanks Larry, Rick, Bill, and 44man.
Thats solid information.
To the OP, you would do very well to listen to these fellers. Especially Larry Gibson, as he has more authority to speak on true pressure characteristics of firearms than most. In fact, I would almost take his word over that of the reloading books FWIW. Lots of the information in the books is heritage documentation but Larry has the tools to run current tests and has.
cbrick has also done more experimenting and shooting this caliber than many will ever think about. Same goes for 44man.
It doesn't get much more "from the horses mouth" than from these fellers.

[.429]

geez at the butt kissing going on here! LOL JK. i recon U and I were typing a post at the same time. mine ended up at the bottom of page 1. check it out
Thanks Larry, Rick, Bill, and 44man.
Thats solid information.
To the OP, you would do very well to listen to these fellers. Especially Larry Gibson, as he has more authority to speak on true pressure characteristics of firearms than most. In fact, I would almost take his word over that of the reloading books FWIW. Lots of the information in the books is heritage documentation but Larry has the tools to run current tests and has.
cbrick has also done more experimenting and shooting this caliber than many will ever think about. Same goes for 44man.
It doesn't get much more "from the horses mouth" than from these fellers.

[Blammer]

I personally like the Unique better in my 44mag loads because:

It's cheaper on powder usage.
Easier to meter.
I get enough velocity out of it for hunting and good accuracy.

What's more to like!

[.429]

now that's what i'm talking about! that's basically my view as well
I personally like the Unique better in my 44mag loads because:

It's cheaper on powder usage.
Easier to meter.
I get enough velocity out of it for hunting and good accuracy.

What's more to like!

[44MAG#1]

Unique is a good powder. I like PowerPistol and Universal better though.
Unique is still a good powder.

[jonas302]

Unique is great in the 44mag just at a mid range nice easy shooting level if your using the lee powder measure I understand your frustration with h110 that measure defiantly runs unique better my uniflow works great for those fine powders

[243winxb]

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/IMG_3306B.jpg Unique works. June 9 2009 The 10 ring is 3 3/8" Cast bullets were oven heat treated/water cooled. Not my standard load of W296, but a good target loading. The cast bullet drops from the mould at 250grs +

[high standard 40]

My experience only, your mileage may vary. But I do have to agree with most here.

If all you are interested in is a cheap "bang", Unique will work. H110 or 296 will provide better accuracy. I have owned and shot many different 44 mag revolvers and a couple of rifles and I have NEVER encountered a circumstance where Unique provided better accurancy than H110 or 296. As far as metering, any ball powder will meter better than Unique......if you have a quality powder measure. And as mentioned, using up to date data is always a good idea. Accuracy expectations vary from shooter to shooter. My take is this: accuracy trumps economy. There is little to be saved if it takes you three shots with sub standard ammo to hit a target that can be hit with the first shot using a more accurate load.

[Jack Stanley]

I recently found several boxes of Remington two hundred forty grain soft points . I wanted to use them in the Marlin 336 and just wan't intersted in maximum power . As it turned out ten grains of Unique was plenty for the job and as a side benefit they shoot well from a four inch model twenty-nine . I'm with Blammer .... what's not to like ? When I run out of these bullets I'll see what cast will do .

Jack

[.429]

My experience only, your mileage may vary. But I do have to agree with most here.

If all you are interested in is a cheap "bang", Unique will work. H110 or 296 will provide better accuracy. I have owned and shot many different 44 mag revolvers and a couple of rifles and I have NEVER encountered a circumstance where Unique provided better accurancy than H110 or 296. As far as metering, any ball powder will meter better than Unique......if you have a quality powder measure. And as mentioned, using up to date data is always a good idea. Accuracy expectations vary from shooter to shooter. My take is this: accuracy trumps economy. There is little to be saved if it takes you three shots with sub standard ammo to hit a target that can be hit with the first shot using a more accurate load.

Unique is much much better than just a "bang"

[Loudenboomer]

Unique is the most accurate powder I've tested by far in my 8 3/8" 629. It however comes at .44 special speeds 8 gr unique under the 250 gr Kieth Boolit. IMHO for top loads stay with H 110-W296, AA9 and 4227 powder speeds.

Kevin

[ShooterAZ]

I like 8.5 gr Unique under the 44 RCBS 250K. It is very accurate and has enough power for most my needs. If I need more steam, I will go with 19 gr 2400. This load will get'r done, but I prefer the Unique load. 296 and H110 don't meter so well in my older Dillon measures, but Unique and 2400 do just fine. I stay away from flat max loads, all it takes is one weak case to ruin your day.

[jonp]

While I cannot pressure test, field results convinced me long ago that Unique is best suited to shorter barrels and moderate loads. I started my .44 mag. shooting with a Marlin 1894, Lyman 429421 (mistake in that gun!) and Unique. Having perused a few loading manuals (mostly handgun data) it appeared that Unique was a pretty good all around powder for the .44 mag and as you noted, economical, but in fact the Unique loads in the Marlin were quite lackluster in comparison to factory ammunition.

Next I tried IMR4227 with noticeable increase in performance and flatter shooting. I tried H110 as well and while I think it produce a little more velocity with max. loads, I have other uses for 4227 so it has become my powder of choice for the .44 using boolits of 240 gr. and up.

In my experience Unique doesn't come close to either IMR4227 or H110 in the Marlin for upper end loads. Now that I have a chronograph I guess I should do some comparison shooting to check actual velocities but both H110 and IMR4227 shot much flatter than Unique (at 12.5 grs. Unique IIRC).

My experience anyway.

By the way, my old Hornady manual listed hefty powder charges for .44 mag that I for not see anymore. Heed the advice given on max load of Unique.

Longbow
^^I have always found Unique to be a much more versitile powder for loading than H110 which does not react well to reduction but for top end loads H110 is the top of the line. The felt recoil for me in several guns using H110 was much less than 2400/Unique etc I think due to the impulse time but that may just be me.

[Larry Gibson]

geez at the butt kissing going on here! LOL JK. i recon U and I were typing a post at the same time. mine ended up at the bottom of page 1. check it out

As you can see mine of us use Unique in the .44 Magnus and other cartridges. I shoot a lot more Unique than any other powder in my current four .44 Magnus. I, like many others, use 8.5 - 9.5 gr under 240 - 255 gr cast bullets. Wonderfully accurate and enjoyable to shoot. 2400, H110, 296 & Bluest are the powders for top end magnum loads, they excel there.

Larry Gibson

[AlaskanGuy]

I love unique for just plain shooting enjoyment in the 44's.... Shoots straight, and is very versatile in the 44... I can load it down very nicely so even AlaskanGurl can handle the 44 well.... I use the lee 430-310 with it and also the rcbs Keith boolit... Both love unique.... But for my hot loads for bear protection I switch powders...

AG

[detox]

If you like Unique...you will love Tin Star n32c. These guys are selling it cheap $15.99 per pound, so i purchased 4lbs. They also sent me tracking number.
http://www.recobstargetshop.com/browse.cfm/2,169.html

Recent Handloader issue 288 has a good article about Tin Star and its single digit velocity spreads. From low to higher velocities.

[jonp]

Never heard of tin star but thats pretty cheap. Where is the burn rate at

[.429]

The description of it sounds a lot like trail boss

[Digital Dan]

Never used a lot of Unique save for shot shell reloading, suppose I might some day put some under lead bullets. Would not consider using H110 with large bores and cast bullets, but that's not a knock on those who have and do find success with it. Given the variety of powders out there I don't feel the least handicapped.

Comment on the thread, FWIW. After the first few posts I was reminded of the thread posted by Recluse awhile back: "Why some new members will do better than others here." Not trying to dig in anyone's case, just the way it struck me. Been reloading since around 1972 and the hobby has grown enormously in that time. All manner of opportunity to get myself in trouble, yet I never have, even though I've never been bashful about standing on the throttle within published limits or even tickling the limits of one manual in favor of another.

There be an enormous number of folks in the shooting community that should not be allowed to toy with reloading. I've read it on forums, seen the results in print, on the internet and in real time at the range(s). With that said, I don't care a lot about what any individual does to themselves, but if one blows up a gun at a range and injures a bystander, well, you deserve to meet Archie Bunker's attorneys.

My professional career centered around aviation in more ways than I care to explain. Suffice to say I have flown, investigated accidents and regulated air commerce, all hands on. Therein is a concept called "blood priority". A simple explanation of the concept is this: All rules related to aviation were founded after someone died, or in some cases, many died. It is a very harsh mistress this flying thing. Rich in reward and severe in consequence when malfeasance is entered into the equation.

The shooting sports are loosely regulated and rely primarily on individual conformity with established practices and standards accepted by SAAMI or industry leaders. There is a plethora of information available to ensure safety and enable success. Ignore it at your own peril, and I mean that sincerely. Murphy is a comedian. Lawyers are not the least humorous, nor are ER doctors. In fact I've heard it said they use their personalities for birth control.

There is absolutely no excuse or need for putting yourself or others at risk while pursuing this sport. A rule of thumb about pressure/velocity comes to mind. Gain X% of velocity with a given powder charge/bullet and you can square that percentage number to gauge pressure rise. As example, increase velocity 3% and you will have a 9% pressure rise. If one considers the parameters we deal with and in many cases the low pressure design limits of many firearms, a 9% pressure rise can be a frightful thing to contemplate.

End of diatribe....

[243winxb]

N32C http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloading/reloadingburningratechart2011.pdf and data http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data/relodata/6/21

[.429]

Never used a lot of Unique save for shot shell reloading, suppose I might some day put some under lead bullets. Would not consider using H110 with large bores and cast bullets, but that's not a knock on those who have and do find success with it. Given the variety of powders out there I don't feel the least handicapped.

Comment on the thread, FWIW. After the first few posts I was reminded of the thread posted by Recluse awhile back: "Why some new members will do better than others here." Not trying to dig in anyone's case, just the way it struck me. Been reloading since around 1972 and the hobby has grown enormously in that time. All manner of opportunity to get myself in trouble, yet I never have, even though I've never been bashful about standing on the throttle within published limits or even tickling the limits of one manual in favor of another.

There be an enormous number of folks in the shooting community that should not be allowed to toy with reloading. I've read it on forums, seen the results in print, on the internet and in real time at the range(s). With that said, I don't care a lot about what any individual does to themselves, but if one blows up a gun at a range and injures a bystander, well, you deserve to meet Archie Bunker's attorneys.

My professional career centered around aviation in more ways than I care to explain. Suffice to say I have flown, investigated accidents and regulated air commerce, all hands on. Therein is a concept called "blood priority". A simple explanation of the concept is this: All rules related to aviation were founded after someone died, or in some cases, many died. It is a very harsh mistress this flying thing. Rich in reward and severe in consequence when malfeasance is entered into the equation.

The shooting sports are loosely regulated and rely primarily on individual conformity with established practices and standards accepted by SAAMI or industry leaders. There is a plethora of information available to ensure safety and enable success. Ignore it at your own peril, and I mean that sincerely. Murphy is a comedian. Lawyers are not the least humorous, nor are ER doctors. In fact I've heard it said they use their personalities for birth control.

There is absolutely no excuse or need for putting yourself or others at risk while pursuing this sport. A rule of thumb about pressure/velocity comes to mind. Gain X% of velocity with a given powder charge/bullet and you can square that percentage number to gauge pressure rise. As example, increase velocity 3% and you will have a 9% pressure rise. If one considers the parameters we deal with and in many cases the low pressure design limits of many firearms, a 9% pressure rise can be a frightful thing to contemplate.

End of diatribe....ok, the 13gr max def didn't come out of my Lyman 49th book as it does list 12gr as max (my apologies there). idk if i misread the book or if i got it somewhere else. i have used max loads before but NEVER go over max (on purpose anyway). i will back this load down to be within specs of the Lyman 49th book. i am shooting these loads out of a couple of heavy built guns, but i may disassemble them anyway just to be safe. thanks for pointing this out to me but i think some of you have misunderstood my original intent with this thread. i simply wanted to see how a hot load of Unique would compare to H110 because the H110 is such a pain to use (much more expensive as well). i havn't done any benchrest shooting yet, but both of the loads are very accurate....like minute of rabbit (50yrds, standing, open sights)

i'm def not in the business of taking chances and possibly harming myself or others. geeez!!

[Digital Dan]

.429, I was speaking to the audience rather than you. I saw your mea culpa earlier and took it as intended.

On another tangent, one of the things I've learned here, and it reinforces my experience and perspective of historical affairs such as the near extermination of the buffalo, it is not necessary to push cast bullets hard to make them profoundly effective. Soft lead at modest velocities is a deadly combination.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/MuffinPP4570_zps1cb2960a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/MuffinPP4570_zps1cb2960a.jpg.html)

The reason I don't use H110 is the small latitude of charge weights recommended by Hodgdon, the requirement for crimping to obtain low SD values and the fact that I can equal or exceed its performance with other charge combinations. I don't use Unique at present because I have none. When and if I choose either I will consult published and current data, compare that with other published data and elect to err on the side of caution until I have carefully found a combo that works. I find data for other powders and cast bullets more abundant that either of the powders you are using. If you decide to trade off the H110 you might see if you can get a bottle of 2400 for it and give that a try.

[dragon813gt]

What powders exceed H110/W296 performance besides LilGun? That powder has it's own downside.

[cbrick]

The reason I don't use H110 is the small latitude of charge weights recommended by Hodgdon, the requirement for crimping to obtain low SD values and the fact that I can equal or exceed its performance with other charge combinations.

Requirement for crimping? See the following crimp tests. It is not the crimp that gets the powder burning properly, it's the neck tension. The crimp's primary function is to limit bullet movement under recoil.

FA 357 Mag 9”
RCBS 180 GC Silhouette @ 192 gr. (CWW +2% Sn HT @ 18 BHN)
XX.0 gr. H-110
Winchester brass
CCI 550 primer
Temp 70 Humidity 38%

All chrono tests 10 shots

1> My normal profile crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized
E.S. 30
A.V. 1518
S.D. 9

2> Roll crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized
E.S. 30
A.V. 1520
S.D. 9

3> No crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, very slight bell
E.S. 30
A.V. 1528
S.D. 9

4> Light profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only
E.S. 26
A.V. 1532
S.D. 8

5> My normal profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only
E.S. 26
A.V. 1536
S.D. 8

The small latitude of charge weights recommended by Hodgdon is true but it's not just H-110, it's a characteristic of ball powder. The simple truth that the ball powders don't burn well without sufficient pressure.

Rick

[Digital Dan]

I thought the purpose of a heavy crimp was to deform the bullet?

Or is that the purpose of high neck tension?

[Digital Dan]

Rick, the numbers you posted above don't get me all that excited frankly. They are are pretty good for H110 in comparison to my own experiences. While recognizing the differences between ball/flake/stick powders I've not found other ball powders difficult to work with. I don't use H110 and haven't since the mid 1990s.

[Digital Dan]

What powders exceed H110/W296 performance besides LilGun? That powder has it's own downside.

It has no downside in comparison to H110/W296 as far as I can tell. It has a lot of upside with lead bullets and the .44 mag in my experience. Your experiences may be different, but they are yours, not mine. In another frame of reference I mentioned to .429 that he might want to try some 2400 and did so after suggesting that top velocities were not required for CB loads to be effective. H110 doesn't provide a reasonable option for mid range or reduced loads, simple as that. Other powders do.

[jonp]

Thanks for the chart, 243winxb. It's different from the one I normally use. n32c looks closer to Promo/Red Dot than Unique which is quite different.
The write-up does make it sound like a direct competitor to TrailBoss but there doesn't seem to be much rifle data for it.
At less than $16/lb it's worth a try I think.

Any comments on that or am I not reading the chart correctly.

[jmort]

Alliant Power Pro MP-300 is the "most powerful" handgun powder. Definite step-up from 110/296

[RoyEllis]

What powders exceed H110/W296 performance besides LilGun? That powder has it's own downside.

With a wider range of acceptable charges also available, you can virtually match H110/W296 velocity with AA#9, 2400, 4227 & a couple others I don't recall offhand. I quit using 110/296 a long time ago, have worked up loads comparable in accuracy & performance that I'm happy with. YMMV

[detox]

Never heard of tin star but thats pretty cheap. Where is the burn rate at

Burn rate between n320 and n330...about the same as Unique. It is a bulky powder and fills case more

[detox]

The description of it sounds a lot like trail boss

You will get more velocity from Tin Star than from Trail Boss.

[dragon813gt]

H110 doesn't provide a reasonable option for mid range or reduced loads, simple as that. Other powders do.

That's because it wasn't designed for that. Why do people feel that a powder has to have flexibility? My question still remains. What powders exceed H110's performance? Not get close or virtually match? I use H110 all the time for full power magnum loads. If there is a powder that exceeds its performance I would like to try it. 2400 and AA#9 are not them.

[44man]

There are more reasons not to load faster powders to try and equal what 296 and H110 get. First they can spike pressures suddenly even if you have shot many overloads before, might be only one shot out of six.
Next the extreme, fast pressure rise can slump or otherwise destroy a cast boolit plus make them skid the rifling. It is always better to move peak forward and still have powder left to maintain push on the boolit so an easy start to get the boolit moving before peak pressure is reached is best. Peak pressure is NOT the end to powder burn with 296/H110. It is still best for full power loads.
296 is best at 90% to 100% case fill to the base of the boolit without compression
MP300 is slower and you might not reach velocity because there is no room for more in the brass.
Unique is a fine powder but I see no reason to go over 10 gr with 240-250 gr boolits in the .44. I like 7 gr for can shooting. 10 is enough for close range deer.
There are tons of new powders now but as long as they are in the same burn rates as old powders they act exactly the same but many are more tolerant of temperature changes.
Rick is correct about crimp, I have done too many similar tests to find crimp is not a burn rate aid. Kind of makes me wonder when someone says "you need more crimp."

[Digital Dan]

dragon, perhaps we don't define performance the same way?

Tell me this; Can you use H110 to drive a 300 grain pure lead bullet from a .44 Mag at 1550+ fps (rifle) and have MOA accuracy at 100 yards? Li'l Gun will do that without much effort. Other powders may fall short of the velocity you find with H110 but frankly I have little use for max velocity as an objective in hand loading. My metric is accuracy and terminal performance and I have little inclination to bend my methodology to a gun powder. Thing is, I truly have no use for a niche powder, that being how I characterize H110. I assume you like it and I'm OK with us taking different paths.

[.429]

Conefession: this in embarrassing but here it goes. I started breaking down the 13gr Unique loads and was surprised to find NO UNIQUE! I had these cartridges in some MTM boxes and unlabeled. I knew right off which loadings these were because I've only bought 1 other magnum pistol powder. Enforcer! I knew these were safe loads but reweighed anyway (21gr). I must've shot up those 13gr Unique loads a few months ago. Anyway, props to Enforcer for those chrono numbers I gave u guys (7 fps spread! Wow!) Enforcer is still expensive and a pain in the *** to run thru my measure. Now I'm itching to load up some 11-12gr Unique loads to run over the chrono. Let the flogging begin...LOL

[ShooterAZ]

I don't understand why you would want to start right out with a max load???

[Dale53]

.429;
Your "confession" just proves you are human, like most of the rest of us (and subject to an occasional "brain fart"). We DO need to stay vigilant, of course, but the only person I know that never makes a mistake is he/she who doesn't do anything...

For the record, subject at hand, my magnum powder of choice is H110/Win 296 (or the similar WC 820) and I have been using it for .44 magnum loads for decades with complete satisfaction. Since I have several .44 Specials, I have never needed to download a .44 magnum. I load "full" loads in the magnum and not "maximum" loads. To reduce wear and tear on my Model 29 Smith (and 629's) my regular practice load is 23.0 grs of H110 behind a 250 gr Keith home cast bullet. My hunting load is 24.0 grs. Maximum (in the reloading manuals I use) is 25.0 grs. My practice load gives me 1200 fps which is plenty to become accustomed to the recoil and my hunting load gives me 1300 fps. The max load adds another 100 fps but the deer were never able to tell the difference.

My heavy load is the Lee home cast C430-310-RF ahead of 21.5 grs of H110. I mostly use this in my Ruger Red Hawk to avoid beating my Smith's up.

Many years ago, when WC 820 hit the market (Carbine Ball) I was able to buy a quantity of it for about $3.00 a lb. I made a group buy for about 300 lbs for my local gun club. My lot # is within a half grain of canister grade H110 by chronograph. It has also been very useful in the Dell .32/.357 Schuetzen rifle giving me ½ minute angle groups at 200 yards in Schuetzen competition when I was competing.

FWIW
Dale53

[.429]

I don't think 21gr is a max load

[ShooterAZ]

I was speaking of your Unique load, why not start at 9-10 and work up? Best accuracy probably won't be at max, but pressures will be.

[.429]

I was speaking of your Unique load, why not start at 9-10 and work up? Best accuracy probably won't be at max, but pressures will be.

I guess because I'm a *******...isn't that the point ur trying to make? As I've stated twice now, my goal was to see what kind of velocity I could get out of a "hot" load of unique compared to H110. Accuracy testing will def be a part of my testing. Consistency in velocity should bE followed by accuracy. I know that I should be in the 1600-1700fps range out of my rifle so I just wanna test a safe but "hot" load of Unique to see if it's even close. If not, I'd give up on it for this particular purpose

[cbrick]

Rick, the numbers you posted above don't get me all that excited frankly.

Really? That was a joke right? It doesn't matter in the slightest if you got excited with the numbers, that has nothing to do with why I posted that info. It wasn't even posted primarily for your benefit, others read these threads too and when something blatantly wrong is posted it should be pointed out such as this.


the requirement for crimping to obtain low SD values

That statement is why I posted the results of the crimp testing. Why don't you look over the results of that crimp testing and then tell me what difference the crimp made in E.S., A.V. or S.D.?

That you so dislike H-110 and refuse to use it is a good thing. Powder is in short supply right now and that leaves all the more for those that appreciate it's qualities.

Now be honest, you didn't really think I posted that to "get you excited" did you? Geez!

Rick

[Digital Dan]

Perhaps a different standard of specificity is in order? To belabor my reference to crimping in the fashion of your choosing appears a bit disingenuous. Mentioned previously was the assertion that crimp and neck tension served difference purposes if you recall. If that is accepted on its face I ask how the average reloader would evaluate and regulate neck tension beyond the basic parameters provided by a given set of dies? What was the neck tension of the loads you posted earlier in this discussion? Were you shooting single shots or loading your gun to capacity? I ask that only as an inquiry about practical application for your data.

My point about crimp went to specific criteria put in context of soft alloys and moderate velocities. Your data references BHN 18 hardness. Let us put our comments in that perspective. Otherwise we are having an apples and oranges debate.

[ShooterAZ]

I guess because I'm a *******...isn't that the point ur trying to make?

Negative, that was not the point I was trying to make.

[MBTcustom]

.429, cool your jets buddy. No one is judging you or looking down on you.
You have been given extremely good advice by some of the most experienced shooters on this board (especially with this caliber)
Relax, lick your pencil and flip your notepad.
We are all experiencing powder shortages and have to try to use what we have on hand, but that doesn't change the fact that powders are safe, effective and accurate in a certain range of use. These guys are merely telling you what that range is.

[geargnasher]

Have to agree with Bill. Unique is still the same and other than the normal lot to lot variations (quite consistent with Unique though and such variations are low) "newer" Unique is the same as old Unique. What is different is the method of measuring pressure. The old method, C.U.P., only measured the peak pressure. Newer peizo-transducers in test fixtures with test barrels give us a much more complete picture of the time/pressure curve. Train gauges on actual commercial firearms additionally give us a much better picture of the total time/pressure curve in the firearms actually used. What is now found out with the better methods of measuring pressures is with many old recommended loads the pressures are actually higher than thought; high enough to potentially cause damage. That is why we see a reduction of some max loads with some powders in newer manuals.

Larry Gibson

If more people realized this it would eliminate a lot of confusion about old vs. new data.

Gear

[.429]

.429, cool your jets buddy. No one is judging you or looking down on you.
You have been given extremely good advice by some of the most experienced shooters on this board (especially with this caliber)
Relax, lick your pencil and flip your notepad.
We are all experiencing powder shortages and have to try to use what we have on hand, but that doesn't change the fact that powders are safe, effective and accurate in a certain range of use. These guys are merely telling you what that range is.

I'm sorry for being so testy. I do acknowledge that I brought some of it on myself by my misinformed/misread (whatever happened idk) about the 13gr. I do appreciate being questioned about that load as I don't ever wanna be unsafe. I also respect the many guys who have many yrs experience here. This has been quite the thread :)

[.429]

I should also add: it makes sense now why that 13gr Unique load had "noticeably" less recoil than the 23.5gr load of h110 :)

[fredj338]

Conefession: this in embarrassing but here it goes. I started breaking down the 13gr Unique loads and was surprised to find NO UNIQUE! I had these cartridges in some MTM boxes and unlabeled. I knew right off which loadings these were because I've only bought 1 other magnum pistol powder. Enforcer! I knew these were safe loads but reweighed anyway (21gr). I must've shot up those 13gr Unique loads a few months ago. Anyway, props to Enforcer for those chrono numbers I gave u guys (7 fps spread! Wow!) Enforcer is still expensive and a pain in the *** to run thru my measure. Now I'm itching to load up some 11-12gr Unique loads to run over the chrono. Let the flogging begin...LOL
Another lesson learned here, pay attention, write this stuff down. More mistakes & KBs happen because reloaders get complacent or try to rely on memory alone. I triple check my data, measure & the powder used every time I reload & been doing this w/o drama for 40 yrs.

[jonas302]

I commend you guys that can post your mistakes and get raked over the coals it helps the rest of us stay aware
recording all information is a big one to stay on top of

[cbrick]

Were you shooting single shots or loading your gun to capacity? I ask that only as an inquiry about practical application for your data.

The FA was loaded with five rounds and fired from the bench with a Burris 10X, 5 shot groups on 150 meter NRA targets.


I guess because I'm a *******...isn't that the point ur trying to make?

Nobody here was trying to insinuate any such thing. Only trying to aid in the education process. Your stated attempt to equal the velocity of H-110 with Unique is what got my attention. For the perfect explanation of why that is not necessarily a wise thing to do please re-read Larry's description of the peak pressure/time curve in post #16. He is 100% correct and spot on.

The bottom line is that you probably could get close to the velocity with Unique but after re-reading post #16 and giving serious thought to what it says ask yourself if it is really a wise thing to do.

Lot's of folks use Unique & other fast powders in mag cartridges but best results (accuracy) normally come with lighter bullets & moderate loads.

Rick

[.429]

I commend you guys that can post your mistakes and get raked over the coals it helps the rest of us stay aware
recording all information is a big one to stay on top of

Those 2 boxes now have a wide strip of masking on top of them now stating the load data

[.429]

The FA was loaded with five rounds and fired from the bench with a Burris 10X, 5 shot groups on 150 meter NRA targets.



Nobody here was trying to insinuate any such thing. Only trying to aid in the education process. Your stated attempt to equal the velocity of H-110 with Unique is what got my attention. For the perfect explanation of why that is not necessarily a wise thing to do please re-read Larry's description of the peak pressure/time curve in post #16. He is 100% correct and spot on.

The bottom line is that you probably could get close to the velocity with Unique but after re-reading post #16 and giving serious thought to what it says ask yourself if it is really a wise thing to do.

Lot's of folks use Unique & other fast powders in mag cartridges but best results (accuracy) normally come with lighter bullets & moderate loads.

Rick

I don't think I ever said I was trying to "duplicate" h110. I know better than that

[.429]

95108 i'm pretty sure this is where i got the load data for that 13.0gr of Unique under a 240gr JSP load. i assumed that since my bullet was 5gr lighter than this boolit, my pressure would be lower and therefore considered safe. did i assume wrong?

[ShooterAZ]

Yes, you assumed wrong. The data shown is for a cast boolit, not jacketed. Cast is typically much softer than a copper jacketed bullet, and takes less pressure to push it down range. Look at the pressure section on the right, and compare to the jacketed section! Refer to page 377 of the Lyman 49th for data for the 240 jacketed load. 11.5 grains Unique max. I recommend you slow down, take your time, make sure you are in the right section. Listen to the folks here. Never start with a max load any way, any how.

[.429]

it's page 377, but thanks! i did not know this. i am however, still not worried about using a max load out of a reputable manual
Yes, you assumed wrong. The data shown is for a cast boolit, not jacketed. Cast is typically much softer than a copper jacketed bullet, and takes less pressure to push it down range. Look at the pressure section on the right, and compare to the jacketed section! Refer to page 337 of the Lyman 49th for data for the 240 jacketed load. 11.5 grains Unique max. I recommend you slow down, take your time, make sure you are in the right section. Listen to the folks here. Never start with a max load any way, any how.

[jonp]

95108 i'm pretty sure this is where i got the load data for that 13.0gr of Unique under a 240gr JSP load. i assumed that since my bullet was 5gr lighter than this boolit, my pressure would be lower and therefore considered safe. did i assume wrong?

Yes, you assumed wrong as others are about to chime in. Take a look through not only the 44mag data but others and compare the same, or nearly the same, bullet weight in jkt v cast with the same powder and also use a calc to rough estimate the pressure increase with each .1 gr of powder to see the difference. Makes an interesting exercise. I did this years ago with a lymans manual, pencil and paper and gaslight evenings in the winter at my hunting camp. Learned a great deal even if i didnt quite understand why at the time.

You should not be afraid to use the data in a loading manual, however, pay close attention to the details. Even the same cast boolit weight will have slightly different data if they are different styles and bhn. You exceed the printed max loadings at your risk.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Please compare the pressure readings and velocities of the Max Unique loads with the H110 loads. The H110 load is at max for the .44 Magnum at 35K psi. The max Unique load is 1500psi higher with a velocity 150fps lower.

I have read and considered the writings of Brian Pearce on the subject of these powders in the .44 Spec and Mag. IN fact his articles are some of the best that have been written on this subject.

The conclusions are.

The use of Unique is best served in mid range loads and H110 is best served in top end loads. Trying to chase H110 velocities with Unique is a dangerous proposition.

Like so many other things both of these powders have their uses and as long as a person knows the limits he should be fine. However when I am looking for a new load for a cartridge I consult about 6-8 different loading manuals and articles on the subject and learn what is going to happen from several different view points developed over about 40+ years of manuals.

This will show discrepancies better than any other way, since if you have one manual that is noticeably higher than all the others, it may be cause for concern, which should result in further study on the subject.

There is enough loading data available to safely load any cartridge known to man. If after looking at several manuals you still haven't found a load for the powder you want to use, either consult the manufacturer for data or maybe it won't work very well for your application. The Mfg. will always tell you strait, and I have found that they are more than willing to talk to you on the phone.

Randy

[MtGun44]

Just because it works and is safe in the conditions used for the manual does not
mean that it will be safe in YOUR gun with YOUR particular components. It is
not unusual to have a particular gun show pressure signs earlier than the book
indicates it should.

This is the reason for starting low. I have seen a new S&W .357 show serious signs
of overpressure well below the MIDPOINT of the min to max range shown in a
good manual. Turns out the gun had issues which raised pressures
prematurely. Not something that is predictable in advance.

Be safe.

Bill

PS I had to shake my head and laugh when several posters say that Unique
"meters well" or is "easier to measure". In my experience, poor metering
is the biggest flaw in a wonderful powder that I use a LOT of.

[.429]

i def see where i was wrong in my thinking about that particular load. it was too hot for sure! anything else i've ever loaded did come out of a book with all of the proper components. thanks to everyone who truly wanted to teach me rather than just prove me wrong. now i'm on a mission to test the following 3 loads (over the chrono and accuracy): 11gr Unique, 21gr Enforcer, 23.5gr H110. all with a 240gr JSP. i'm looking the combo that serves me the best (accurate, consistant fps, economy, ease of powder handling). i know which one will be the fastest velocity, but again, that's not my top priority. it's funny because thru all this, i kinda have a new appreciation for Enforcer...LOL. Ramshot Enforcer is still expensive and very fine ball powder. it did bind in my powder measure, but didn't seem quite as bad as the H110. it was also easier to find this past year. the pressure on that load was quite a bit less than that H110 load. and, it was only 50fps slower velocity and 2.5gr less powder, and i still cant get over the 7fps spread. recoil was lighter (which in my book is always a good thing). i will adjust the power charges in all of these loads here and there as i look for my "go to" rifle loading. having a chrono has taken this hobby to another level.

[44man]

It is true that in many cases a cast boolit can use more powder then jacketed but I will never say that because of a few experiences with more then a few powders.
One example was a moderate load of 4198 in the 45-70 using a jacketed bullet. All was fine, shot good. I went to a cast GC boolit of the same weight, hard lead. It shot decent at around 1600 fps, then I had a few that spiked to over 1800 fps and stuck brass. (Between a group one and two load.)
Now there are a lot of reasons this can happen so I won't list them and did not want to try and fix it so I changed powder and have had no problems since.
It is one of those things we can never predict and will not be found just working up a load because you can shoot a lot of what you think is OK---until that one.

[DougGuy]

.429 what powder measure do you use? I had horrid luck with a Lee Pro trying to throw H110 I hated it. Powder everywhere, very staticky. I have a Dillon 550 that does very well with H110, and a modified original Lee with a billet adjustable bar that is the cat's meow, not one single grain of H110 spilled, and the most consistent charge weights I have ever been able to measure..

For all the negative comments about H110 I am guessing you must be using a Lee Pro Auto Disk, just going by my own experience with one.

One more question, I am seeing a max of 20.6gr 2400 in your load data, showing 37,200psi pressure. There are a few loads shown on that page that go over 36,000psi. Many years ago S&W approached SAAMI and got them to lower the max pressures for the cartridge from 40,000psi to 36,000psi to help them with so many warranty returns on their model 29s. If your data is older than that change, I would suggest using a more modern set of data.

I have to agree with the crowd here, my usage of Unique is for cowboy loads in .45 Colt, and if I was looking for mild loads for the .44, I could use it for that purpose. I have settled on 2400 as the powder of choice in my .44 Magnum because it's better at 3/4 throttle so to speak than reducing loads of H110 into the 1150f/s range for hunting. If I want to sink my finely crafted cast boolits farther into the dirt on the other side of the deer, they make H110 for that purpose, a purpose that it seems to excel at with no equal.

One more habit I got into years and years ago is sticky notes. I load a batch and use a sticky note in the lid of the ammo box to denote what is in there. Some loads I will dot the primer with a magic marker to distinguish them from others in the same box. From that habit, I can go back to loads I put up 30yrs ago and tell exactly what powder, boolit, primer is in that load, and usually how well it grouped. When you get old, you will really thank yourself for doing this..

[.429]

i have been running it thru a Lee Perfect Powder Measure. i havn't even tried it in my Lee Pro Auto Disk. the billet piece sounds interesting. i'm not using that page for load data anymore. that page is out of a Lyman 49th. 2400 is a powder that i've yet to try but i prob will at some point since so many seem to like it.
.429 what powder measure do you use? I had horrid luck with a Lee Pro trying to throw H110 I hated it. Powder everywhere, very staticky. I have a Dillon 550 that does very well with H110, and a modified original Lee with a billet adjustable bar that is the cat's meow, not one single grain of H110 spilled..

For all the negative comments about H110 I am guessing you must be using a Lee Pro Auto Disk, just going by my own experience with one.

One more question, I am seeing a max of 20.6gr 2400 in your load data, showing 37,200psi pressure. There are a few loads shown on that page that go over 36,000psi. Many years ago S&W approached SAAMI and got them to lower the max pressures for the cartridge from 40,000psi to 36,000psi to help them with so many warranty returns on their model 29s. If your data is older than that change, I would suggest using a more modern set of data.

I have to agree with the crowd here, my usage of Unique is for cowboy loads in .45 Colt, and if I was looking for mild loads for the .44, I could use it for that purpose. I have settled on 2400 as the powder of choice in my .44 Magnum because it's better at 3/4 throttle so to speak than reducing loads of H110 into the 1150f/s range for hunting. If I want to sink my finely crafted cast boolits farther into the dirt on the other side of the deer, they make H110 for that purpose, a purpose that it seems to excel at with no equal.

One more habit I got into years and years ago is sticky notes. I load a batch and use a sticky note in the lid of the ammo box to denote what is in there. Some loads I will dot the primer with a magic marker to distinguish them from others in the same box. From that habit, I can go back to loads I put up 30yrs ago and tell exactly what powder, boolit, primer is in that load, and usually how well it grouped. When you get old, you will really thank yourself for doing this..

[dragon813gt]

H110 works fine in the PAD......if you like it all over your bench. This is what mine does. But I know there are others that have no problems w/ it leaking. I only use H110 w/ a Chargemaster so I don't worry about it leaking. It has worked fine in my PPM as well.

[44man]

The very best for the money is the Redding BR measure with the baffle. For large calibers like the .50, they have a great drop tube extension that slip fits the smaller one and still works for small calibers. It comes with a small and large powder adjustment so you can go from a gr of Bullseye to a huge charge in a rifle.
I do not even feel 296 and have weighed out ten charges all at once in the pan to find 1/10 gr difference.
I do NOT want a measure on top of a press to be jiggled and banged.

[Moonie]

To those that have problems with the disk measures and fine ball powders, I had one that leaked and one that didn't. Sanding down the body fixed the issue and made the gap between the disk and the hopper the same as the one that didn't leak. Making the wiper work the way it is supposed to. It really is a simple fix.

[.429]

http://youtu.be/imYUkQzgVmc here is a follow up via video. the H110 was sold, just didn't care for it

[Hickok]

Following this with interest. Just wondering if HEAVY charges of fast powder like Unigue in magnum cases would accellerate forcing cone wear over a heavy charge of slower powder such as 2400 or H110?

I use Unigue for mid range loads in .44 mag. in a 900 fps load, but go to 2400 for magnum loads.

[44man]

Following this with interest. Just wondering if HEAVY charges of fast powder like Unigue in magnum cases would accellerate forcing cone wear over a heavy charge of slower powder such as 2400 or H110?

I use Unigue for mid range loads in .44 mag. in a 900 fps load, but go to 2400 for magnum loads.
No, but it is too much instant thump on the boolit.

[Hickok]

Thanks 44man. Always wondered about fast burning powder and forcing cone wear.

[cbrick]

Following this with interest. Just wondering if HEAVY charges of fast powder like Unigue in magnum cases would accellerate forcing cone wear over a heavy charge of slower powder such as 2400 or H110?

What will accelerate forcing cone wear is too soft of a boolit at high velocity. As for heavy charges of fast powder in a magnum case . . . It all depends on if your goal is accuracy or just a big bang. As 44man suggested, it's the pressure/time curve. With the fast powder you get ALL of the velocity tight now, kinda like smacking it in the hieny with a large sledge hammer and that's it. With the slower powders the boolit starts to move and gains velocity as it travels down the bore until peak pressure is reached. Much better for magnum/higher velocities and much better for accuracy.

Rick

[44man]

What will accelerate forcing cone wear is too soft of a boolit at high velocity. As for heavy charges of fast powder in a magnum case . . . It all depends on if your goal is accuracy or just a big bang. As 44man suggested, it's the pressure/time curve. With the fast powder you get ALL of the velocity tight now, kinda like smacking it in the hieny with a large sledge hammer and that's it. With the slower powders the boolit starts to move and gains velocity as it travels down the bore until peak pressure is reached. Much better for magnum/higher velocities and much better for accuracy.

Rick
I can't say it better.

[.429]

What will accelerate forcing cone wear is too soft of a boolit at high velocity. As for heavy charges of fast powder in a magnum case . . . It all depends on if your goal is accuracy or just a big bang. As 44man suggested, it's the pressure/time curve. With the fast powder you get ALL of the velocity tight now, kinda like smacking it in the hieny with a large sledge hammer and that's it. With the slower powders the boolit starts to move and gains velocity as it travels down the bore until peak pressure is reached. Much better for magnum/higher velocities and much better for accuracy.

Rick

How soft? And what velocities?

[44man]

How soft? And what velocities?
I use water dropped WW boolits at 1316 fps for 310 to 330 gr boolits. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with all to the 330 gr when I drop to 21 gr.
I use Unique and 231 for fun only. 7 gr. Do NOT try to reach 296 velocities with fast powders.

[Hickok]

Thanks Cbrick and .44man for the information. I have heard some say they burned out a forcing cone with heavy charges of Unique, like Unique was a death sentence to a revolver, this gives a reliable explaination.

[.429]

I use water dropped WW boolits at 1316 fps for 310 to 330 gr boolits. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with all to the 330 gr when I drop to 21 gr.
I use Unique and 231 for fun only. 7 gr. Do NOT try to reach 296 velocities with fast powders.

I'm talking about the forcing cone wear