Gould bullet

[WHITETAIL]

Ok boys and girls.:-D
Report is in, no deer with the 45-70.:sad:
So here is the question?
I plan on trying new loads for the 45-70.
What I have now is 37gr. of 4198 in a star-line NP new case.
I will try out any load that is OK in a 2,000 Marlin 1895ss.
No fillers please, other than Cream of Wheat.:holysheep

[NickSS]

Try 42 gr of IMR 3031 and your Boolit. Works great in my 95 Marlin.

[WHITETAIL]

Does 40gr. of Rex 7 with 12gr. ofCream of Wheat ring a bell?

[Ricochet]

I load that over 35 grains of WC680. About 1550 FPS out of my 1895 Marlin.

[6pt-sika]

First deer I ever killed with a 45-70 was killed in 2002 . And was shot with my Marlin 1895CB . I have a Lyman tang sight on the back and the stock factory in front .

My load is the 330 grain Gould HP bullet sized to .459" lubed with Thompson's Blue Angel . Powder is 31.5 grains of SR4759 and a CCI200 primer . By no means would I call this a flat load but at 20 feet up a tree and 21 yards away , at the crack of the rifle the large bodied 6 point whitetail hit the ground [smilie=1:

[Glen]

I like 40.0 grains of Re 7 (with no filler) in my Contender for about 1475 fps (12" Hunter barrel).

[Ricochet]

By no means would I call this a flat load but at 20 feet up a tree and 21 yards away , at the crack of the rifle the large bodied 6 point whitetail hit the ground [smilie=1:
I'll bet he hit with a pretty good thump after falling 20 feet out of a tree. [smilie=1:

[ACK450]

I have tried many loads in my 1972 Marlin 1895 and the Gould bullet. I never found a one that would shoot worth a hoot in my opinion....until I turned down bullet bases and installed Horn. crimp-on gas checks. Then, and only then did I get acceptable 100 yard deer hunting accuracy at 1350 + fps. These attempts involved IMR 3031 & 4198, and RL-7. All stalwart powders in the 45-70 with other bullets. Sizing tried was .458,.459,.460. Several lubes too.
Alloy BHN was about 13 so the thing would expand in a deer.

What this means to me is; people who keep posting here that microgroove Marlins shoot cast bullets well...are full of hops! And some mould maker is missing a good bet by not offering a Gould bullet duplicate in a gas check version.

The bullet will kill deer well. Very well! It just needs a little help getting to the target in a more accurate fashion at over .22 long rifle velocities.

Good luck with your rifle and the Gould bullet. ACK450

[Mk42gunner]

I'll bet he hit with a pretty good thump after falling 20 feet out of a tree.

Dang Ricochet, we think alike:roll:..

Robert

[WHITETAIL]

I will get some RE7 after the holidays, and try 40grs. in my 1895 SS.

[WHITETAIL]

Has anyone used a milk carton gas check with a Gould bullet?:???:

[Char-Gar]

ACK450.... Your experience with cast bullets and Marlin MG barrels is like that of many others. They try and shoot the Gould or other cast bullets without understanding that the Marlin MG barrels are "special needs" children. When the differences and quirks of MG barrels are understood and they will indeed shoot cast bullets as well as any rifle.

The folks who shoot cast bullets through MG barrels with good results, are not full of hops! They just know how to do it and you don't. You would be better served to adopt a learning mind set, rather than a know it all mind set.

Yes, I am one of those who shoot cast bullets through various MG barrels with excellent results and find your comment offensive. So if you are a little offended by my response, we will just call it even.

Wildcat... You asked about card wads... but you said no fillers but COW, so I am conflicted on how to answer. So, I will answer and perhaps it might be of help.

I have good luck with the Gould bullets in my Marlin 1895 SS. I size the bullets .460. (Pay attention here ACK450). I had to have Stillwell hone out a sizing die, but it is worth the few bucks in terms of accuracy, at least in my rifle.

I have long liked 4759 in the 45-70 Govt. round. With the Gould I use a charge sufficient to give velocity equal to the old black powder Express load, which is about 1.5 to 1.6 K fps. The bullet was designed around this speed and is plenty to open up the hollow point and knock a deer into the eternal realm. Run the Gould or any cast hollow point too fast and they will blow up and not give the penetration you want and need.

Many other powders work well in the 45-70 Govt. round, but I have been using 4759 in this round for over 40 years and I understand it's quirks.

To open up the Gould at this speed I cast them from the traditional binary alloy of 1 to 20 tin to lead.

To push the Gould from this rather soft alloy at 1.5 to 1.6 K fps with good accuracy and no leading, I seat a card wad on top of the charge of 4759 and fill the excess space on top of the wad with PBS shotshell buffer to give a lightly compressed load. I use the wad to seperate the powder from the filler so the two won't mix.

The PSB protects the bullet base from the fire much like a gas check and gives the same results . ACK450..are you still listening here?

Now here are a couple of WARNINGS, that are important, so listen up.

1) Never, never use a wad if there is airspace between the wad and the bullet. This is a good way to ring your barrel. Hence the PSB filler.

2) The filler adds to the weight of the ejects, so add the weight of the filler and wad to the weight of the bullets to get a total of what you are shoving out the barrel for pressure purposes.

I don't know why you are so stuck on COW. I used it in days gone by, but would not use it today. It can attract moisture and expand and/or harden into a rock hard mass. This is not a good thing. It can expand enough to cause the bullets to move forward in the case.

This is why I use an inert filler like PSB which won't absorb moisture like COW, corn meal, oat meal, coffee and the like will.

I have been hunting off and on with the Gould since 1961, in Winchester 86s, Springfield Trapdoors, Rugers single shots and Marlin leverguns. It is an excellent bullet if not cast too hard to expand or ran so fast they blow up. The bullet works like a champ within a narrow spectrum of bullet temper and velocity. Understand this, and the bullet will please you. Disregard this and the bullet will disappoint you.

PS: In the "Days of Yore" we also glued Lyman gas checks with Duco Household Cement to the bases of Grould bullets. We did this with the skirt down and when the gas hit the skirt it expanded it to form a gas seal. The pressure kept the check against the base of the bullet until they exited the muzzle where they went their seperate ways. Worked well and there was no danger of the check moving below the base of the bullets if the cases were FL sized.

[northmn]

I used the Gould to take a deer in a single shot 45-70 with black powder. It chronograped at about 1400 and was cast 1-20. It worked very well even though I shot the deer a little far back. Triple 7 and the Pyrodex select have given good results also. I had a 45-70 Marlin CB with Ballard rifling that worked with the substitute black powders also. I turned a nose punch out of a nail to decrease the cavity size for higher velocity loads which I may try sometime as some say it is too much of a good thing on larger deer. A bear hunter wanted the Marlin CB bad enough for me to sell it. It is made a little light and kicked more than my aging frame likes anymore even loaded down with lead.

Northmn

[WHITETAIL]

Hay Northmn, Where are you? My dad was from Minn. I was up to Min-St. Paul.. I spend some time in New Brighten.

[ACK450]

Chargar: Sorry I offended you. It certainly wasn't my intent to offend anyone by my saying "full of hops" which is used around many places just as "full of Bologna" is as a tongue-in- cheek statememt. I have never known either phrase to be considered vulgar as other words involving "full of"....

I do not consider myself a know it all, and simply used that phrase out of frustration over having such a hard tiime getting the Gould bullet to shoot well for me. I know of many others who have had a hard time getting decent accuracy from Marlin MG barrels too. Actually, most people seem to.

Yes, I did pay attention when I read your response. I too have had Stillwell ream sizing dies to special sizes like .460, etc and also tried filler loads with shotshell buffer. I also tried other things too like COW and corn meal, but they wern't as good.
I shot literally hundreds and hundreds of loads trying to make the Gould bullet work for me. I did so because I liked the bullet, wanted it to work for me, and believed in it's rich history.

Anyway, I finally found a way (one way) that did indeed work for me. That was by turning down the heel of the bullet and seating gas checks. Kind of a lot of trouble, but I kept trying to make something work (for me and my particular rifle) and succeeded.
I am happy that you have found something that works well for you too.

I must agree with you in your statement that...the Marlin MG barrels are "special needs" children. Getting them to shoot well with cast bullets is possible. Just not easy for what I feel is the majority of us folks.

No. I am not offended by your response. You have every right to your opinions and feelings like the rest of us here on this neat web site.
Sincerely, ACK450

[Wayne Smith]

Dang Ricochet, we think alike:roll:..

Robert

Nah, I was trying to imagine him getting it up there!

[slughammer]

I'll bet he hit with a pretty good thump after falling 20 feet out of a tree. [smilie=1:

Sometimes with a .22 and a body shot they are able to get into a hole or nest and they are heck to get out once they do that. I used to climb up and reach in for them, but it almost always ended in me being bitten. Nowadays I find the larger bores like the 45-70 give a quicker end result; oftentimes its like the boolit grabs them and throws them out of the tree.

:holysheep

[Ricochet]

Wounded whitetail bucks will climb a tree and hide in a hole or nest? Dang, no wonder I wasn't too successful in my deer hunting days. I just didn't understand their ways!

[Char-Gar]

ACK450... The primary issue with MG barrels is most often they have land and groove diameters in excess of normal specs. A normal 30 cal barrel will run .300 X .308. Marlin MG barrels will run .302 - .306 X .309 - .310. They are all over the map, but they are most all larger than normal. I have three Marlin MG barrels and they run .302 X .309, .3.3 X .309 and .308 X 309.


When you shove a normal .30 bullet with a nose of .299 - .300 down one of these barrels you don't get very good results.

However if you use a bullet that fits, accuracy will be as good as any other barrel. I can shoot cast bullets in my 30-30 MGs at a full 2.2K fps with accuracy on par with factory ammo.

For the largest (.306 X .309) I had to get a custom Mountain Mould with a tapered nose that runs. .305 to . to .307 and a body of .311. This rifle is a 1960 vintage 336 Texan.

I also have 45-70, .357 Mag and .44 Mag Marline leverguns and all have larger than normal specs.

Folks who try and shoot cast in Marlin MG barrels without understand their wierd specs will have poor results.

Now, there are folks to swear they have Marlins MGs with traditional specs and use tradtional diamter cast bullets. I certainly can't and don't dispute they experience.

However, I have had experience with cast bullets in over a dozen Marlin leverguns with MG barrels and every one has had larger than nominal specs. I also have never had one that would not shoot cast as well as any other rifle, if their special needs are tended to and a bullet of proper fit is used.

Good shooting...

[WHITETAIL]

Today my buddy and I went to the range and the 45-70 went along.
I made up 4 loads to try.
37grs. of IMR 4198
38grs. of IMR 4198
37grs. of IMR 4198 with a wax card under the boolet
38grs. of IMR 4198 with a wax card under the boolet

The best results were the 38grs. with the wax card under the boolet.
The group was about 2 1/2 inches at 100 yards.

[Swamprat1052]

OK, I am just curious about what kind of deer you guys are hunting. I never could get a whitetail to climb a tree, wounded or not. I used to climb trees to hunt em till I saw a doe with her head almost on the ground, looking AT ME from around a limb between us. I quit climbing after that. Never did find a deer in a tree and its warmer on the ground. And if I fall asleep its not as far to fall.

Swamprat

[T-Bird]

I shoot 29gr 4198 (guess I'm a sissy) ,dacron wad filler, behind the gould bullet sized .459 in my 1895cb. I get 1350fps roughly 2-21/2 in 100yd groups and it is reasonably easy on the shoulder. The dacron really helped accuracy. I've shot this load for several years and none of the deer I've killed with it have complained about it being underpowered. Shoot straight T-Bird

[MtGun44]

For the oryx (gemsbok) I'd expect you'd want a heavier flat point
cast boolit. They are bigger and tougher than whitetailed deer
by a lot. I had a friend that got an oryx at White Sands, kinda cool
shooting exotics in the States.

Bill

[SCIBUL]

Hello gentlemens.
I use GOULD bullet since two years now and I killed a chevreuil (European White tail) las season with my 1972 MARLIN 1895. The night was falling down and I could narly see the front sight. The deer was at 35 meters when I shot it. He faled like a ton of bricks and I first thought I missed him... So I went to control the shoot and saw him lying in his tracks. The shot was a little too high (I aimed his heart) but the GOULD bullet has worked well. Mine are cast of straight air cooled wheel weight and sized at .458. I reload it with a W-W brass, CCI 200 and 29,3grs of vihtavuori N110. The powder in kept against the primer with a little cardboard slice. With the Lyman 66 Receiver and the Shinner front sight, this load will produce 2" accuracy at 100 meters (110 yards). Hope this helps.
[smilie=s:
SCIBUL

[waksupi]

Hello gentlemens.
I use GOULD bullet since two years now and I killed a chevreuil (European White tail) las season with my 1972 MARLIN 1895. The night was falling down and I could narly see the front sight. The deer was at 35 meters when I shot it. He faled like a ton of bricks and I first thought I missed him... So I went to control the shoot and saw him lying in his tracks. The shot was a little too high (I aimed his heart) but the GOULD bullet has worked well. Mine are cast of straight air cooled wheel weight and sized at .458. I reload it with a W-W brass, CCI 200 and 29,3grs of vihtavuori N110. The powder in kept against the primer with a little cardboard slice. With the Lyman 66 Receiver and the Shinner front sight, this load will produce 2" accuracy at 100 meters (110 yards). Hope this helps.
[smilie=s:
SCIBUL

Welcome aboard. Would you happen to have a picture of the chevreuil? I would like to see how similar it is to the whitetail.

[Just Duke]

What is PSB? Where can one get it also? I have very liitle space in 485 grainer but a filler might help with 405's. I almost ended up with one of these HP moulds I was bidding on but the price went above the price I could normally get it for new.

[ra_balke]

The Gould bullet was designed in the days of black powder .. with a mix of 1 to 15 lead/tin. Or so..

If you want to use the Gould bullet, use it the old way, and keep the velosity down to around 1200 fps, and keep it soft.

At least that is my opinion.

[SCIBUL]

Hello.
For Waksupi : I'm sorry to answer so late but I was gone hunting during last weeck :-D.
Here are photos of chevreuil (not mine). This are a male and a female.

[405]

Howdy,
My first reply here. I like the Lyman Gould mold. It's all I've found to shoot accurately in my 1881 Marlin 45-70. I've shot quite a few deer and coyotes with it and none get away. It did'nt work so well on a ORYX hunt at WSMR though, they are tough and a relativley small kill area to hit. This bullet propelled by 2400 powder at 1580 FPS muzzle velocity gets 1 1/2" group at 100 yards. I use a filler but you wrote not to mention that part, it wasn't accurate till the filler. Other loads didn't come close to this one for accuracy when I tested them. It does lead though so I am always looking to learn more and improve the load.

Bill,
You're not just whistlin Dixie about those Oryx being tough! At about half the size of a large bull elk they are every bit as tough if not more so. It probably applies to most all the African spp. Your Marlin at 1.5 @ 100 is deadly accurate enough!

I assume it's the 330 gr version? Did that Gould get complete penetration on the Oryx and what alloy (or BHN hardness) was the bullet? Bullet performance on one of those type critters is about as good a yardstick as there is for anything hunted in the US.

I've found in my original 45-70 Win 86s bullets in the 300-350 gr range are more accurate than the other, heavier types. The Gould is in that category but haven't loaded any. Will probably get a Gould mold one of these days.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I noticed a few of you used fillers, my mate says his preferred filler is FFg, but he is also partial to a bit of FFFg at times as well.