Alloys for Paper Patch Muzzies?

[Wrapit]

Hello gentlemen,

For PP hunting boolits, what do you think of the idea of a small percentage alloy? One idea is cutting Lyman #2 50/50 with pure. I'm generally happy with pure but like the idea of increased down range penetration if other problems aren't caused. I'm confident in my current set-up to take ethical shots out to 100+ yds. if the elk is broadside. Problem is the big boys don't seem to stand that way for me all (most) the time...:) Passing up the shot or pushing my luck with further stalking is easier with rags and cows. I'm hoping to take advantage of the wealth of knowledge and experience of the forum contributors here with my first post. No sense reinventing the wheel if I don't have too.

Oh, my current set-up is a 50 cal. Knight w/ a 27" 1-28 twist throwing a 455 gr. straight walled patch bullet (.28 meplat - radius 1 tangent ogive). The load that shows best accuracy/power is 100 gr. 777. W/ a musket cap. In my hunting grounds (ID), we are proscribed to use bore sized projectiles that are minimum 50 cal. and the length cannot exceed 2x diameter. The ignition must be exposed, no sabots, 209's or bullet jackets.

[johnson1942]

i think idaho ron just addressed all that in the last few days. you may check all his recent posts.

[Wrapit]

Thanks for the reply. Still learning my way around the forum.

[johnson1942]

check your pm messages,thankyou

[rlb]

I think idahoron mentioned something about penetrating a cow elk from shoulder to opposite hind quarter with a 6 bhn bullet. Something like that.

[idahoron]

Hello gentlemen,

For PP hunting boolits, what do you think of the idea of a small percentage alloy? One idea is cutting Lyman #2 50/50 with pure. I'm generally happy with pure but like the idea of increased down range penetration if other problems aren't caused. I'm confident in my current set-up to take ethical shots out to 100+ yds. if the elk is broadside. Problem is the big boys don't seem to stand that way for me all (most) the time...:) Passing up the shot or pushing my luck with further stalking is easier with rags and cows. I'm hoping to take advantage of the wealth of knowledge and experience of the forum contributors here with my first post. No sense reinventing the wheel if I don't have too.

Oh, my current set-up is a 50 cal. Knight w/ a 27" 1-28 twist throwing a 455 gr. straight walled patch bullet (.28 meplat - radius 1 tangent ogive). The load that shows best accuracy/power is 100 gr. 777. W/ a musket cap. In my hunting grounds (ID), we are proscribed to use bore sized projectiles that are minimum 50 cal. and the length cannot exceed 2x diameter. The ignition must be exposed, no sabots, 209's or bullet jackets.

Hi, I do have a lot of info on alloy and paper patching here on this site. Once you look it over if you have any questions feel free to ask.
You mention Idaho rules. There is no rule in Idaho that "the length cannot exceed 2x diameter". Also we can have bullets that are actually under bore diameter by .010 to account for a patch. I would like to see your bullets they sound cool.

Here are the Idaho rules.
Any person hunting in a muzzleloader only season, including
controlled hunts, must have in their possession a license with
a muzzleloader permit validation. During a muzzleloader-only
season, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal with
any firearm, muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other than a
muzzleloading rifle or musket. In addition, the muzzleloading
rifle or musket must be:
• Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
• Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any
electronics are prohibited. Except hunters with a visual
disability may apply for a permit to use nonmagnifying
scopes. (Applications are available at Fish and Game
offices.)
• Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or
other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders are
prohibited.
• Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
• Loaded with a projectile that is within .010 inch of the bore
diameter. Sabots are prohibited.
• Loaded with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed
projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy.
• Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket cap.
209 primers are prohibited.
• Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of
the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is cocked
and ready to fire.
For additional information about muzzleloader equipment
visit our website at http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/hunt/
rules/?getPage=299

[Wrapit]

Hi Idahoron,

Yes, you are quite right. Was trying to give parameters of what I am doing so that posts on the topic would be as relevant as possible. Should have left out that line about what Idaho makes us do. Nothing like misstating a hunting reg. to make a good first impression.:)

A lot of what I'm reading about alloys seems more attuned to target shooters shooting pretty long bullets. My thoughts are that any smooth sided projectile approaching an inch out of a .50 is either too heavy overall, too top heavy (big hollow base), or too flimsy tipped (or various combinations of these undesirable characteristics). Your technique of paper patching a grease grooved design looks like a good way to deal with that issue.

I'm very interested to hear about your experiences with alloys. I'm wondering about 40/1? Any problems loading or staying put? Sorry to bother you with redundant questions, but I've read a lot of your posts and can't seem to find any that address this.

[idahoron]

A guy on another forum sent me some of his bullets to patch for him. I wrapped them and didn't test them. I sized them and they stripped the paper right off them. These bullets if I remember right were 40-1. The bullet on the left was the 40-1 the one on the right is one of mine and the hardness is between 6 & 7. On my Cabine tree tester it is right at .035
For a while I was thinking about 40-1 lead in my 50 and I decided to get a .496 sizer so I can size the bullet before I wrap. I have not tried that yet. I use 40-1 in my 45 and I shot a deer with it last year. I think the 40-1 hardness is not too hard for game. Ron

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Coreysbullets.jpg

[Wrapit]

Thanks, Ron. Hmm... So you suspect the issue was hardness rather than his casts? Could a slight variation in diameter or groove edge from yours be a possible cause?

I have no experience with wrapping a grease grooved design nor have I sized after wrapping before, so the whole idea is new to me. Since I have to buy a new .50 die anyway, perhaps using my existing dye to pre-size before wrapping (as I currently do) would be a good procedure to continue?

[idahoron]

I am sure it was the hardness. I also think if I would have had a .496 sizer then I could have sized them with the .496 then wrapped them and them sized hem again with the paper on to .501 and all would have been good. At least that is what I think now. I have shot some paper patched bullets that were 18 BHN and those didn't shoot well at all. Well that isn't entirely true. They shot good if I cleaned between each shot. My standard practice is to find a load that shoots well while cleaning between shots. Once I find a great shooting load then I test them by shooting them on the next range session by shooting with a clean cold barrel. I shoot until the group blows out past 2" at 100 yards. This gives me the info I need in case I have to reload and keep shooting in the field. That might be rock chucks, ground squirrels, or what ever. The 18 BHN bullets would not group without cleaning at all.

What is your current sizer? Since your gun is a Knight I would pre size bullets that are harder than 7 BHN to .496 then wrap and then resize to .501 You might try just resizing to 496 and wrapping and shooting. I like the pressed on paper on my bullets. Ron

[Wrapit]

Thanks Ron.

Yeah, the pressed on paper sounds like the way to go, especially with a grease groove design. I don't see why some have a problem with it. If the patch can't survive being run through a short smooth sizing die, how is it going to survive being run through one with rifling that is 26" long?

My bore mics at precisely .50 with .004 grooves. My sizer is .492. My current favorite paper is Mead .002 tracing paper. The stuff is tough and the heated to very soft beeswax rubbed into it after wrapping seems to make it tougher. A little rendered deer tallow applied to the bullet just prior to loading helps it ram smoothly and consistently with a nice snug fit. Ive found the wax by itself can get a little tacky. With soft lead the sizing is a little more forgiving than it would be for a harder alloy? I don't want to stick a bullet in the middle of a hunt. On the other hand, some of the country is pretty rough and the rifles get jostled a bit. A bullet slipping off the charge would give me an even worse day. :)

[idahoron]

If your sizing right you don't need the lube at all. I have seen lube cause the paper to fail. Ron

[Wrapit]

Lube helps with cleaning, which is a good thing. I take your point though. I haven't had issues with paper failure but that's probably because of the soft lead I've been using. Will follow your advice with my harder lead experiments.

[idahoron]

If your paper looks like this it will fail.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Paper_patch_mini.jpg

It is not about hardness of the lead. It is about the lube it's self. I have been told that some lubes don't weaken the patch but if the bullet is sized right you don't need it. I have tested my loads with 5 shot groups no cleaning. The test is to keep all 5 shots under 2" and they do that fine. To me if I can shoot that many times that more than exceeds the amount I would ever need on a hunt. The deer lube wouldn't be a problem right before you shot but, I would test it by leaving it for a day or two and to see if the bullet hit where you wanted it to. Ron

[Wrapit]

Ah! Perhaps the difference is the grease grooves? Good advice on the test. I load in the morning and the grease sits on the bullet all day if an elk or deer doesn't get in the way.:)

[johnson1942]

i did find out something last week to add . a paperpatched grease grooved bullet goes down a bore more easily than a smooth sided wrapped both of the same diam. i was perplexed and measured their diam. a couple of times and they were the same before and after wraping. the only thing is that the grease grooved bullet has less area to cause friction when going down the bore. it makes things a lot more understandable when i read all the post about paperpatching.

[JMtoolman]

Shot a moose a few years ago with a Alex Henry .475 3/14 Express. A 440 grain smooth paper patch bullet with a hollow base. Range was about 90 yards and quartering away. Hit just in front of the left ham, went through the diaphragm, liver, one lung, broke three ribs on the right, then traveled forward and lodged against the front of the skin of the neck. It went through about five feet of moose, started about 1440 fps. I really don't think you need any more f.p.s. Moose only went about 80 yards. Pure lead, with a tough vellum PP. The toolman.

[Wrapit]

I agree, Toolman. Too much velocity can actually work against penetration at close range. Besides, who needs the extra recoil? I'd prefer lighter load than I'm currently using but accuracy suffers quite a bit when I back off. Another reason I'm contemplating a different boolit/load combo.

Ron -

I haven't had a problem with paper ripping so far, but again I only have experience with slicks. Just to be clear, what do you mean by lube? It seems most mean a mixture of some type of wax mixed with an oil and perhaps a little soap to help it emulsify. The stuff is pretty viscous/oily and I can see it weakening paper. I don't use it.

I only use pure natural wax. It sets up bone dry and pretty hard. A lot of people may not know this, but prior to the intro of synthetics, wax was used to strengthen cotton & silk thread for centuries, from boot making to fly tying. I've found it actually strengthens paper - as did our forbears who used it to wrap up their provisions. It seals the paper from the environment, keeping it cleaner and impervious to swelling due to changes in humidity (both are potential problems with dry paper). It also protects the paper effectively from the tallow lube used as a lubricant/fouling softener. These are all good features in elk camp. One potential negative is failure to shed in flight but I haven't noticed it being a problem.

BTW - .496 boolits? Seems to me that a patched bullet micing out at .504 (w/ .002 paper) would be hard to get through a .501 sizer let alone down my .500 Bbl. What am I missing?

[idahoron]

Ron -

I haven't had a problem with paper ripping so far, but again I only have experience with slicks. Just to be clear, what do you mean by lube? It seems most mean a mixture of some type of wax mixed with an oil and perhaps a little soap to help it emulsify. The stuff is pretty viscous/oily and I can see it weakening paper. I don't use it.

I only use pure natural wax. It sets up bone dry and pretty hard. A lot of people may not know this, but prior to the intro of synthetics, wax was used to strengthen cotton & silk thread for centuries, from boot making to fly tying. I've found it actually strengthens paper - as did our forbears who used it to wrap up their provisions. It seals the paper from the environment, keeping it cleaner and impervious to swelling due to changes in humidity (both are potential problems with dry paper). It also protects the paper effectively from the tallow lube used as a lubricant/fouling softener. These are all good features in elk camp. One potential negative is failure to shed in flight but I haven't noticed it being a problem.

BTW - .496 boolits? Seems to me that a patched bullet micing out at .504 (w/ .002 paper) would be hard to get through a .501 sizer let alone down my .500 Bbl. What am I missing?

I have only tested Hornady great plains lube and Bore butter. I haven't tried a wax based lube on the paper. All I can say is give it a try. Test it to be sure it is still accurate after sitting in you barrel loaded. If it works that is awesome. I don't think in your barrel your going to see dry paper become saturated with water but Anything can happen. I put a piece of black tape over the barrel if I am in wet weather. For hunting a guy is only talking about a couple shots at most. I don't worry about keeping fouling soft. It is not an issue for hunting in my opinion. If it works better for you that is something you have to find out for your self. I would think that failure to shed should not be an issue but that would have to be tested. When shooting dry that is not an issue.

On the sizing. I am only talking about this bullet, the Lee C-501-440-RF. With two wraps of the 9# onion skin it will go through the die easy. Unless your knight barrel is not made by Green mountain like mine these bullets are snug going down but they go down fine. They are snug so they don't come off the powder no matter what happens. The sizing I do works in Green Mountain barrels, Knight/ Green mountain barrels, Lyman GPH, and TC white Mountain carbines. It is possible that some barrels I have not tested could be tighter and these would be difficult to load. So far I have found that they work very well. Ron

[Wrapit]

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it's a Green Mountain Bbl. I assume that it is a tight one as some do apparently mic out at .501. I guess your size recommendations threw me because I'm used to working w/ slicks. Perhaps the difference in bearing surface mentioned by Johnson1942 is the answer? Probably for the same reason, I've had issues trying to reload over dry fouling which is why I'm anal about softening it..

Anyway, I'll give your method a go and see how it works for me. It'll mean a new sizing die... Or two.:) At first I'll experiment with some GG's I've got laying around to get a feel for it.

Thanks again!

p.s. - Why the gas check design? I would think it could cause obituration/gas checking issues...

[idahoron]

That was the way lee designed it. I just tried it to see what happened. With the fit as tight as it is I don' t need much obituration to achieve the results I need. On my 45 I use a 11 mm RCBS rifle bullet that is .446. I also have a Pedersoli mould that is .446 while both look much alike I got the Pedersoli because it was a hollow base so I could tuck the tail. It turned out the RCBS was ten times more accurate. Sometimes I can't explain why one bullet is better than another, it just is. The Lee C-501-440-RF has proven it's self to be an accurate bullet and effective on game as large as elk. Ron

[Nobade]

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it's a Green Mountain Bbl. I assume that it is a tight one as some do apparently mic out at .501. I guess your size recommendations threw me because I'm used to working w/ slicks. Perhaps the difference in bearing surface mentioned by Johnson1942 is the answer? Probably for the same reason, I've had issues trying to reload over dry fouling which is why I'm anal about softening it..

Anyway, I'll give your method a go and see how it works for me. It'll mean a new sizing die... Or two.:) At first I'll experiment with some GG's I've got laying around to get a feel for it.

Thanks again!

p.s. - Why the gas check design? I would think it could cause obituration issues...

Howdy guys, I will throw my 2 cents in the ring here...
I too have shot that Lee boolit quite a bit in my 50 cal. bullet guns and it is indeed a good performer. Just to see if I could make it better, I cut the gas check shank out of it and it does shoot a tad better that way. You can also cut the lube grooves out, and improve it a slight bit more. I size them to .494" and patch to .500" for use in a .501" bore. I wet patch, and shoot them dry but load over a .030" LDPE wad and a lubricated felt wad. Using this combination, I can shoot until my shoulder gives out and not have to wipe. The plastic scrapes the fouling down and the felt keeps it soft as well as scrubs the bore at the shot. Other combinations work too, but this works for me in all my bullet guns. Oh, I also "Hyde" patch the boolits so there is no tail to put a dent in the base. I get much better accuracy this way than using twisted tails. Store boolits in 45 ACP boxes, they fit just right!

-Nobade

[idahoron]

That's awesome! Ron

[Wrapit]

Hmm... Well, the smaller dia. gas check ready base makes it better at starting and therefore probably improves bore alignment. Perhaps the reason for the good accuracy you're getting?

I found the mold on sale for $19! So, I'll forget fooling around with the other gg's I've got in my collection of rejects and just go for it. Will report back in the Spring with the results... and probably more questions...:)

[idahoron]

Sounds like a good buy. Why are you thinking about changing from what you have now? Ron

[Wrapit]

Several reasons.

First, my combination of soft lead and high velocity is a bit problematic. It kicks like a mule and though it seems counterintuitive, penetration actually suffers at close range. That's why I'm hesitant to try quartering shots with it. Since the bullet I'm using doesn't seem to like lower charges, the only option is to harden it up some (the reason for my original inquiry). From what I understand, this can cause problems with loading and poor longer range upset. It would be just my luck that a harder version may turn out to prefer lower velocities in my rifle anyway, so I'd be working at cross purposes.

Secondly, your input prompted me to do a little studying. I'm not so sure slicks with a steeper ogive are the way to go terminally or forensically. Evidence seems to indicate that a grease groove design with a hefty meplat beats it in every category, i.e. will fly with more stability through sonic transition, better BC, and better wound channel. You successful use of a paper patched GG was a revelation. The performance you've demonstrated is exactly what I'm looking for.

Thirdly, I've been casting pistol bullets for years and would prefer to do the same with my muzzy. I don't like depending on retailers as the selection is miserable and even supplies of what they carry are less than dependable.

Forthly, I'm a firm believer in sectional density. The lack of it in the boolits most guys I know use is what started me on this journey in the first place. I've witnessed some real horror stories with RB and Powerbelts. The flat point 440 is OK I guess, but try to find them. Perhaps that's why I don't know anybody that uses them. Everybody seems to stock either the 345 or 405 HP's. Those bullets are very poor killers, especially out of a .54. Man, those things lead up a Bbl. - another negative. RB is little better than a modern compound bow, IMO. At least the latter is far lighter to carry and won't hangfire or missfire. You don't have to clean it at the end of the day either.

Finally, I'm an inveterate tinkerer. It's fun!

[idahoron]

I agree with you about close range can be tough on bullets and make them over expand or even come apart. YOU reasons are sound and valid. Most of your reasons were the same reasons I wanted to do something new.
I do think that you will like the Lee bullets. You will really like them hardened to 6 or 7 BHN. My cow I shot this year was at 60 yards. I hit her in the shoulder and I found the bullet in the flank. Those bullets bore holes, deep holes.
Where in Idaho do you live? Ron

[Wrapit]

The panhandle. Yeah, those photos were very illuminating. My nephew took a shot on a beautifully stalked cow this year under similar circumstances with 120 gr. of 777 behind a 405 Powerbelt in his .54. It was a forty yard side shot slightly angled showing its left flank. He was trying to hit behind the shoulder but pulled the shot a little, hitting it square. The poor critter went down, got back up, stumbled around until it figured out how to run three-legged and took off. My brother observed the whole thing from perhaps 200 or so yards away. It was his opinion that that critter had to be lung sick. After sitting for an hour, the tracking began. No blood trail. After more than six hours, no elk either. The country was combed for almost ten miles in every direction in the remaining days of the hunt. It was never sighted again. We detest leaving game in the woods so were sick about it. Lesson hard learned.