45-70 Guide Gun on a Cape Buffalo

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Since hunting seasons have come to a close for most of us here, I have had to cast my net a little wider to get my hunting story fix. Came across this one that used CBs on a cape buffalo and thought ya'll might enjoy...


http://gunsforafrica.blogspot.com/2012/12/45-70-marlin-guide-gun-takes-on-cape.html#!/2012/12/45-70-marlin-guide-gun-takes-on-cape.html

[NSB]

The American bison is larger than a Cape buffalo and millions of them were killed with like guns. I'm not at all surprised that this lady got one with here guide gun and it did what it did. Good read.

[LAH]

Nice Cape.

[white eagle]

way to go !

[HarryT]

There's a big difference in killing an animal at 100 yards and stopping a charge.

[jmort]

????????????????????????

[JSnover]

There's a big difference in killing an animal at 100 yards and stopping a charge.

More exciting, but the boolit probably won't know the difference...

[davidheart]

There's a big difference in killing an animal at 100 yards and stopping a charge.

It's a .45-70. Go home. You're drunk. :roll:

[smokesahoy]

i want one of those 45-70 guide guns so badly.

[WilliamDahl]

More exciting, but the boolit probably won't know the difference...

The difference is whether the animal dies BEFORE or AFTER he makes you life very painful. :)

I've seen ads for hunting Texas Longhorns (the cattle, not the football team at UT). Sure, they can be a big animal, but having grown up on a ranch, I just don't think it is that challenging to shoot a cow. Usually I was having to fight them off as I was trying to get hay out of the barn. Stalking them? That consisted of just driving the pickup into the pasture and they would come running, expecting there to be some food. That said, I have had one of two that caused me to become airborne when I thought that my 180 lbs was a match for their 1800 (or more) lbs. Ouch......

[blikseme300]

I was born & raised in South Africa and have hunted Cape Buffalo. The stories of hunters that ended up dead because they underestimated these animals are not exaggerated. I respect the 45-70 but if a Cape Buffalo is charging there is little chance of placing a good shot to stop it. Climb an Acacia tree fast or you will die. (For those who don't know, these trees are very thorny, but I climbed one once. Don't do this, it hurts climbing down.)

[WilliamDahl]

I was born & raised in South Africa and have hunted Cape Buffalo. The stories of hunters that ended up dead because they underestimated these animals are not exaggerated. I respect the 45-70 but if a Cape Buffalo is charging there is little chance of placing a good shot to stop it. Climb an Acacia tree fast or you will die. (For those who don't know, these trees are very thorny, but I climbed one once. Don't do this, it hurts climbing down.)

I think that would be the time when I would be wanting a 12-gauge with BB size shot in the hope of blinding him. Might give me a little more time to climb that tree. :)

[eljefeoz]

He'll wait under the tree, and a friend or two may join him...

[WilliamDahl]

He'll wait under the tree, and a friend or two may join him...

Not a problem -- at least I'll have something to eat. Does Acacia wood work good for BBQ?

[leftiye]

Some people will argue about anything. These things are legendary tough. Have been for literally centuries. Have overlapping ribs for heck sakes. Though they have been stopped head on charging, I'm not interested in trying (buff ends up slobbering on yer shoe!).

[300savage]

never have had to stop a CB to save my bacon and hope i never have to find out what that feels like.
but for some reason i think i would be focusing on my shooting more than my climbing.
and so it appears to me that this loading should be effective at least as a stopper.
not sure if it would be as good as a big double with jacketed solids, but i aint the expert so perhaps it has advantages i cant see.

[blikseme300]

Not a problem -- at least I'll have something to eat. Does Acacia wood work good for BBQ?

Acacia wood works very well. We braai (grilling) in SA using the great coals that this wood creates. It is quite difficult to cut when dry so cutting is done on freshly cut limbs or we make a fire from dead limbs and transfer the coals to the grill. I learned to BBQ (smoking) here in Texas and it is my favorite way now. Smoking meat is almost unknown in SA was an eye opener when I settled here. The cuts of beef are also different and brisket I had never come across before. Good stuff when smoked using Pecan or Mesquite!

[blikseme300]

never have had to stop a CB to save my bacon and hope i never have to find out what that feels like.
but for some reason i think i would be focusing on my shooting more than my climbing.
and so it appears to me that this loading should be effective at least as a stopper.
not sure if it would be as good as a big double with jacketed solids, but i aint the expert so perhaps it has advantages i cant see.

The 3 most dangerous animals in Southern Africa are the Hippo, Cape Buffalo and crocodile. The speed at which I have seen these to move makes a good shot questionable so take your pick regarding the way to stay alive.

[timspawn]

Acacia wood works very well. We braai (grilling) in SA using the great coals that this wood creates. It is quite difficult to cut when dry so cutting is done on freshly cut limbs or we make a fire from dead limbs and transfer the coals to the grill. I learned to BBQ (smoking) here in Texas and it is my favorite way now. Smoking meat is almost unknown in SA was an eye opener when I settled here. The cuts of beef are also different and brisket I had never come across before. Good stuff when smoked using Pecan or Mesquite!

There is no substitute for biltong.

[blikseme300]

There is no substitute for biltong.

That's why I make my own. There are only 2 things I miss from SA and that is boerewors and biltong and being a Boer I make my own anyway.

[blikseme300]

There is no substitute for biltong.

That's why I make my own. There are only 2 things I miss from SA and that is boerewors and biltong and being a Boer I make my own anyway.

[JSnover]

... if a Cape Buffalo is charging there is little chance of placing a good shot to stop it. Climb an Acacia tree fast or you will die.

Isn't that what the PH is for? The client placed her shot and the buffalo died. Had it not turned out that way another qualified person with another adequate rifle was ready to stop the charge.

[BSalty]

I have never been on safari, (Nor do I ever plan to) but I gotta say that line about Noah using the .416 Rigby to clear the animals off the Ark made me laugh so hard I fell off my chair.

Nice read.

[siamese4570]

Read an article in Handloader couple of years ago written by Brian Pierce. He took a marlin 4570 to africa to hunt cape buffalo. I forget the type of ammo he was using but he ended up killing two buffalo. The bull he was shooting at and the cow standing behind that he couldn't see. bullet went thru both of them broadside.
siamese4570

[jaydub in wi]

Read an article in Handloader couple of years ago written by Brian Pierce. He took a marlin 4570 to africa to hunt cape buffalo. I forget the type of ammo he was using but he ended up killing two buffalo. The bull he was shooting at and the cow standing behind that he couldn't see. bullet went thru both of them broadside.
siamese4570
IIRC, he was using the cor bon penetrator load. It's a 400ish jacketed flat point design for very little penetration. I may have to dig up that issue to be sure

[rbertalotto]

The 3 most dangerous animals in Southern Africa are the Hippo, Cape Buffalo and crocodile.

But in terms of deadly, nothing compares to the mosquito!

[pls1911]

I would humbly submit the most dangerous animal to man any where is Man himself.
over estimating his skill or firearms will kill him.

Hmmm let's see.. one chance at temporary pain in an acacia, vs sure death If I miss my perfect placement shot.....

Heck.. too many years back, I've even scurried up a Texas mesquite after putting a pellet gun to a peccary balls, only to be run up the danged tree by shreaking snapping foaming pack of the critters....
HEY!!! you're only 10 once, and some lessons are learned quickly the hard way....I can still feel the sweaty thorn memories, laughing at my own stupid kid tricks.

[RichardSATX]

I want the mold for the bullet that he is using. Looks awesome.

[300savage]

how bout a thread about what handgun cal and boolit would be best for dispatching a buff one handed while i hang on to a branch with the other.
all the while i try to keep my dangling buns out of reach of a horn enema and my rifle gets stomped to kindling on the ground.
actually now that i think about it with my shoulder and knee surgeries and messed up back i think i might stand a better chance with the buff than the tree.
i know i can shoot, not so sure about hauling my carcass up a tree in time to get away from anything.

[RoyEllis]

....actually now that i think about it with my shoulder and knee surgeries and messed up back i think i might stand a better chance with the buff than the tree.
i know i can shoot, not so sure about hauling my carcass up a tree in time to get away from anything.

Yep, like the saying goes "I'm too crippled to run & too old to fight, so I guess I'll just have to kill ya".

[fouronesix]

These things are legendary tough.

Yes they are tough! I would have no wish for a frontal, short range, "stopper" shot- whew! The bulls live fighting each other and all of them have grown up surviving lions.

I don't know about the average weight comparing them with NA Bison but I don't believe there is a great difference. But they are physiologically very different. Cape Buffalo aren't tall but they are as wide as they are tall in the body, extremely heavily built. Bison are much taller and thinner relative to their cross section. Wounded Cape Buffalo act somewhat like wounded brown bears in that they tend to go hide in brush then watch their back trail.

I know the PH on the referenced hunt. No doubt his 416 Rigby was on that hunt in case needed. He grew up there and has done it all his life. He's one who's word and wisdom I trust. I like his insightful writing, especially about hunting and conservation.

[WilliamDahl]

how bout a thread about what handgun cal and boolit would be best for dispatching a buff one handed while i hang on to a branch with the other. all the while i try to keep my dangling buns out of reach of a horn enema and my rifle gets stomped to kindling on the ground.

.45-70, of course.

[tygar]

Ok, I'm not going to get into whether a 45-70 is a good Buff cartridge or if it will kill one or stop a charge, hell, one of the biggest Brown Bears in Alaska was killed with a .22 LR, in a charge!

The question is, is it a "good" choice. I don't know, never killed a Buff, but I have killed bear & the old adage of "bring enough gun" is probably even more germane to the Buff & you sure better have "enough" with bear.

Do lots of guys kill them with 06s, sure, but it's a lot harder to stop one that's really pssd coming at you at 35mph with an 06 instead of a .375!

It's not the "can it kill them" so much as how good is it going to be able to stop them when TSHTF!

There is a reason for the .375 minimum & in some places .40 minimum in Africa. Yes the 45-70 is a .40 so it sure is better than an 06 but they are basically talking about something with lots of ME & over 2100fps for reliable stopping power.

Would I shoot one with a 45-70 or 450 Marlin, probably (but then again my wife says I'm nuts), but the gun porter is going to be standing on my right with my .458 double ready to hand it to me, & the PH on my left with his +.40 cal.

Reminds me of the line where the reporter asks the man, "why do you carry a .45 & he answers, "because they don't make a .46".

So, it's nice that she killed one at 100yds that ran the other way & the PH didn't have to use his ".416" to stop a charge.

I hope to go for Buff & Lion myself & if I do, I'll let you know how my .375 did for Lion & .458 did on Buff.

[seaboltm]

There is a reason for the .375 minimum & in some places .40 minimum in Africa. Yes the 45-70 is a .40 so it sure is better than an 06 but they are basically talking about something with lots of ME & over 2100fps for reliable stopping power.


I am certainly no expert, but I think Randy Garret is. He would disagree with your 2100fps number:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

[tygar]

I am certainly no expert, but I think Randy Garret is. He would disagree with your 2100fps number:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Well he would be going in the face of many years of African hunting. THE standard is a 500gr bullet going over 2100 fps.

[JSnover]

Well, that weak, slow, underpowered, dinosaur 45-70 dropped that evil, tyrannosaurus/buffalo hybrid with one shot. At 100 yards, where surely all of its energy should have been lost by the time it got to the target. I refuse to believe such a thing. That animal must have been defective in some way. An autopsy will disclose a previously unknown medical condition, I'm sure.

[tygar]

I don't know why you guys get so excited & think people are denigrating it, when they arn't. The 45-70 is a decent round, "decent", no problem shooting things from deer to bear at decent ranges. Maybe African also.

There wasn't a statement saying it won't do, but a question asking, is it a "good" choice.

I even said, I'd use one on a Buff....but I'd dam sure want my bigun real close.

Quit picking a fight when there wasn't one offered.

I will say to you about Garrett, what he found is interesting. What others have found about what "stops" these big critters is also very interesting. Also the fact that .458 & other big 40 solids that go end to end in a Buff & other big stuff is also interesting & is contrary to what he says.

I havn't done it personally, have you?

Let me know how your 45-70 does in Africa on your hunt. Hope it's good & you have all 1 shot kills at whatever you shot at.

I like a big bore lever for close N. American dangerous or big game. I'm going to take a Win71 & make a 450 Alaskan, just because it is a good bear stopper (moose etc) in close in the bush that a lot of Ak hunting is found.

Like I said, I'll let you all know how I do when I go to Africa.

[fouronesix]

tygar,
Can't disagree with much of your thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's interesting digging around in the world of the African PH and hunting business. Much of what has been written about the very fine and expensive large caliber doubles is and may have become lore greater than reality about an expectation (especially it seems an expectation of well read but inexperienced US hunters) of what an African hunter "should" take or a PH "should" use for dangerous game. I think most PHs agree with the idea of using the "biggest" gun a hunter can shoot well. Some hunters skip the part about "shooting well" and go straight to the "biggest gun", then can't shoot it well when it counts. A thought that may be politically incorrect but what the hey, if a person can't shoot a gun adequate (and shoot it well) for the game hunted then maybe they shouldn't be hunting that game.

Here's the short essence of an article written by Harry Selby and published by Sports Afield in 2011.... the full article is well worth reading IMO.

During a 1949-50 safari, Selby's very fine Rigby 470 double was accidentally run over by another PH during a hunt. Selby had a Win M70 375 but reckoned he needed something a little larger to finish the season. Between safaris he frantically searched Nairobi for a suitable large bore to continue the season and found a 416 built by Rigby on a standard length/size Mauser action. He had misgivings but had little choice but to use it until he could replace it later (with another big double). He modified the stock to his liking and changed the safety to a three position Winchester type. He quickly learned the capability of the 416 bolt gun- from stopping dangerous game to taking regular plains game. He loved the rifle and used it almost exclusively for the rest of his career and seemed to feel it was positive fate in losing the 470 double.

[tygar]

tygar,
Can't disagree with much of your thinking.

I think most PHs agree with the idea of using the "biggest" gun a hunter can shoot well. Some hunters skip the part about "shooting well" and go straight to the "biggest gun", then can't shoot it well when it counts. A thought that may be politically incorrect but what the hey, if a person can't shoot a gun adequate (and shoot it well) for the game hunted then maybe they shouldn't be hunting that game.

Here's the short essence of an article written by Harry Selby and published by Sports Afield in 2011.... the full article is well worth reading IMO.

During a 1949-50 safari, Selby's very fine Rigby 470 double was accidentally run over by another PH during a hunt. Selby had a Win M70 375 but reckoned he needed something a little larger to finish the season. Between safaris he frantically searched Nairobi for a suitable large bore to continue the season and found a 416 built by Rigby on a standard length/size Mauser action. He had misgivings but had little choice but to use it until he could replace it later (with another big double). He modified the stock to his liking and changed the safety to a three position Winchester type. He quickly learned the capability of the 416 bolt gun- from stopping dangerous game to taking regular plains game. He loved the rifle and used it almost exclusively for the rest of his career and seemed to feel it was positive fate in losing the 470 double.

Yep, I agree with ALL you said.

If you can't shoot it accurately, don't bring it.

I also went away from the 470s. I had several doubles in it & 1 or 2 shot OK but not great & others, especially a hi $ Douglas, shot like s.

I picked up a Kreigoff .458 double & it shot 500s, 4 in 1.5" at 50yd at POA, & shot 400s an inch higher also 1.5ish.

The 470s flew out of my safe. Also had a .375 & 9.3 doubles that went since I figured that anything I didn't use the 458 on would be shot with a bolt.

I do know that when I shoot a pointy Barns 4 or 500gr bullet it shoots way flatter & farther accurately than others. I also know that when Dave at CH tool & die (4D dies) makes his 4 & 500 solid brass solids for my 458s & 385s for my 500 they will flat go thru anything I can shoot them at.

I guess I'll need to do a comparison test myself & see how they match up with the 45-70, although mine has been on loan to a friend for 3yrs now since I kept the .450 Marlin instead. I know heresy. Sorry.

[fouronesix]

Agreed, accuracy and bullet placement should be co-equal to bullet performance.

There's quite a bit of info embedded within the blogs and articles written by the PH about testing the 45-70 GG that was used by the lady in the OP. For at least a couple of years he took every advantage at hand for testing penetration of the cast loads she would end up using. I can say this with some confidence since I have direct knowledge of the hunt in question.

For bullet and load testing, freshly killed hippo and elephant carcasses and parts provided nearly ideal ballistic test media. Some of the 45-70 loads were compared directly to such as GS solids fired from a 458 Express being fired into these media. The hard cast 45-70 loads really did very well in comparison.

However, given a choice of what I would use for something like elephant... I'd pick one of the big boomers in a bolt gun- maybe a bolt 458 Lott. All academic since I'll never hunt elephant. Just a personal preference about the caliber and game. Also, there's a difference between what a hunter should carry on a hunt and what a PH normally carries. Different jobs to do.

IMO the 45-70 with good loads is about at the lower end of what is reasonable for something like Cape Buffalo. I know I know, volumes of anecdotes have been written about Joe Soinso killing a 10,000 pound elephant with a 22 Hornet... among similar stories about sharp sticks, peashooters and handguns. IMO, the game itself deserves the best tool for a high percentage clean kill. If that big 458 double shoots straight, I'd think it an excellent choice for heavy, dangerous game.

[tygar]

Agreed, accuracy and bullet placement should be co-equal to bullet performance.

However, given a choice of what I would use for something like elephant... I'd pick one of the big boomers in a bolt gun- maybe a bolt 458 Lott.

Ya, I have a CZ in 458 Lott. I like it, especially because I like the CZ. It's heavy enough but well balanced, the 3 leaf sites are good as well as the trigger. Good gun.

I also have the 450 Watts, which as you may know is the longest of the 458 basic rounds. It's a ball buster with the 500 at 2500+. I think I had mine made on a Whitworth .375 action that or a Kleinguenther. Whatever, ones a 450 the other .416.

Both the Lott & Watts are quite accurate like most 458s. Don't remember my LOtt load but the Watts is 90 something grs of 3031. At full pop it gets your attention, but with the straight walls it is more the really big push, rather than the 460 or 378 sharp hurt.

I really would like to see how the 45-70 kills on a Buff or Elephant with a nice side shoulder shot as well as the same with the 45 Mags. Be an interesting comparison. I can tell you my 458 has knocked bear on its asz & flipped moose back end over front.

Hope more guys who actually have hunted Africa & shot the big 5 will post & give some more first hand info.

[fouronesix]

:) The 450 Watts is a very serious round. I know a PH who has one based on an FN magnum action and swears by it. As far as the effectiveness of broadside shoulder shots.... objectively comparing the 45-70 to one of the 45 cal mags is hard to do. Some of it would depend on bullet construction. The edge would have to go to one of the mags because they can yield both compression tissue damage (due to higher velocity) and penetration. The 45-70 holds its own if comparing penetration when shooting a lead core FMJ or hard cast. Of course similar bullets in both types carry about the same sectional density- except lever guns shooting a long monolithic copper solid could be OAL-limited because of feed length limitations and functionality.

[tygar]

:) The 450 Watts is a very serious round. I know a PH who has one based on an FN magnum action and swears by it.
- except lever guns shooting a long monolithic copper solid could be OAL-limited because of feed length limitations and functionality.

True, I sometimes shoot 458s in the Lott & Lott in the Watts & use my canalure tool to put it right at .460 from the base on the brass solids & stuff more powder in it, also do it on the Barnes. I saved a lot of the originals that are semi pointed SP & they are without canelure, so I put it wherever I want. I have had some pretty interesting speeds with no indicaters of excess pressure. Also have some of their 600s & have been playing with them. Wish I had Larry Gibson's ability to check pressures.

Dave told me his 385gr .500S&W will go right thru a Buff like it was paper. He did say though that it's one hot sob. I forgot how fast it's going but seems to me that it was close to 2k.

I even asked the Kreigoff people if they would bore my double to a Lott. They went back and forth from the shop in PA & HQ in Germany, but finally said they were worried about being able to regulate it correctly & it would nullify my lifetime guarantee. So no go.

I have been of the opinion for quite a while that the Lott or Watts shooting a 4 or 500gr pointy copper bullet would be out of sight for shots from 5' to 300+ yds & would knock the poop out of the big ones & just punch a hole thru the little ones.

[monge]

Gut shot a doe with a brenneke slug 12ga at 10 yards when I first started hunting ,knock her down and she got right up we tracked her for over a mile she died by a stream. I was very young it was a poor shot my dad would not stop tracking till we found her. Made me knock on land owners doors to ask permission to follow her on there land. my point is a poor shoot with a cannon is a poor shot and will not knock down game!

[fouronesix]

Yah, I think if the shooter is up to it and spends the range time, many of the big cartridges in that category have more range than is normally used for their day job. That versatility and extended range if needed has long been one of the selling points of the 375 HH.

Another 45 Mag in the category is the 450 Ackley. What seems obvious, but may not be, is that many of the more current 45s in the Lott, Watts and Ackley family can be pushed to higher velocities than the "factory standard" ammo... although, I think some of the listed loads for the Ackley may be near max pressure as they are pushing 500 grainers to 7000 ft lbs of ME!. With the exception of the Ackley and maybe some others, the conservative loading may have to do with a wide range of conditions and temperatures where reliability is more important than an extra 100 fps. After all, any difference in the effectiveness of a 500 gr slug driven at 2300 fps won't be measurable compared to the same slug driven at 2200 fps. And, their job is intended for less than 100 yards. Examples of conservative loading for reliability would include both the 458 Lott and the 416 Rigby.

Also in that world, the rifle as I mentioned earlier, has two different jobs. The hunter can have a rifle jam, ammo shoot carps or whatever and nothing happens. He simply borrows or rents one from the PH or safari company and continues. Then sorts out the problem back at home. A PH living there has no such luxury, especially when in the bush. Those guns get dirty, dropped, wet and generally beat up. There's little opportunity to order or load ammo much less tweak loads on a moment's notice and most any such is either not available or extremely expensive with the same applying to any problem with a gun. Every country in Africa I know of has its own very strict regs on cross border movement of ammo and arms and have very strict laws on even the most basic ownership of guns/ammo. Reliability is an absolute for that primary tool of the trade. Yes, we are spoiled here.... but that leads back to how important the 2A is! - which is a different discussion-

[sharpsguy]

I have been to Africa three times, twice with a 45-110 Sharps, and the last time with a 45-70 Sharps. I always shoot cast bullets, and before I shot my first zebra, my PH told me that this would be the animal that would break my string of complete pass throughs. When I asked him why he didn't think I would shoot all the way through the zebra with my 45-110 Sharps and lead paper patched bullet, he told me that his 375 H&H wouldn't shoot through a zebra reliably. I shot the animal on a diagonal on purpose, and shot all the way through him for a one shot kill. On the next safari, I shot a zebra with my 45-70 and a 480 grain cast flatnosed bullet and absolutely dumped it on the spot, DRT. I didn't recover that bullet, either.

My PH drove me through Kruger Natl. Park to get a close look at elephant and buffalo.
Elephant are WAY out of my price range, but buffalo not so much, and are on my bucket list. We got an up close and personal look at a good buffalo bull, about 38 inches from no more than fifteen feet as he grazed by the road as we sat in the truck. I ALSO got a good look at two buffalo skeletons that were laying by the road where they had been killed by lions. Yes, I looked at the overlapping ribs, and In my opinion, my 45-70 Sharps loaded with a Lyman 480 grain FN 457121 and 66.5 grains of KIK 3f black powder will shoot all the way through a Cape Buffalo with no problem, either in and out the ribs or through both shoulders.

Lack of money has prevented my hunting dangerous game, but my PH has offered to guide me for both elephant and/or Cape buffalo with either my 45-70 or the 45-110. When I asked him which rifle I should bring, he said the 45-70.

The zebra with the 45-70 is somewhere on youtube, BTW. Sorry I don't have a link, but someone has posted here in the past.

[LAH]

I watched the zebra on youtube & they don't go down any quicker.

[tygar]

I have been to Africa three times, twice with a 45-110 Sharps, and the last time with a 45-70 Sharps.

Lack of money has prevented my hunting dangerous game, but my PH has offered to guide me for both elephant and/or Cape buffalo with either my 45-70 or the 45-110. When I asked him which rifle I should bring, he said the 45-70.

The zebra with the 45-70 is somewhere on youtube, BTW. Sorry I don't have a link, but someone has posted here in the past.

Really cool. If you have pics how about posting some here so we can see. Any chance of you getting to go back soon & hunt Buff?

What other game did you take. Again, pics & story.

I've been planning to go for years but life keeps getting in the way. My wife says to go when we sell this place & move or sell some guns. I hope to go within a year or so. Buff & lion, maybe more but as you said it's so dam expensive.

I know most African game is tough but how come a zebra is that tough? The aren't any bigger than a horse & a horse is an easy enough kill.

I don't know about your PHs 375 but I have shot clean through a nice brownie & from the hump & out the ah on a big moose with mine & dumped another asz over front with a downward left rear to right front & exiting. All 300gr, 1 Barns & 2 Nosler Partition.

Again, not Africa but a good indicator of the bullet effectiveness. A buddy went a while back & took a 39" Buff with his 375. I'll ask him what his bullet performance was & put it on here if I can get it before to long. He's another Alaskan & goes outside in the winter a lot.

Neat story. Any other African hunts out there? Let us know.

[sharpsguy]

tygar--I'll see if a friend of mine can post some links to my African stuff. I'll tell you up front that none of the cats present any sort of a challenge to my 45-70 Sharps. I have shot through and through a black wildebeast lengthwise, in just to the side of the left ham and out the front of the chest, and through and through a kudu cow front to rear . I have looked at an elephant skull and studied it for about 20 minutes, and don't see any problem with a head shot on an elephant, either. I once shot an American bison in the horizontal aspect of his right horn, and the bullet went straight down the horn boss, into the brain cavity, and halfway out the opposite side. I have the skull on the wall of my reloading room, and the tape measure says that I shot through NINE INCHES of solid bone. There was no place on the elephant skull that had any where near that much solid bone over the brain. I'm going to sign off for the moment and see if I can get some pictures posted.

[Don McDowell]

here's the zebra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqs543qxTHE

[LAH]

And Don that was with the left hand.

[Don McDowell]

Yup he shoots them sharps rifles from the offside. :)

[fouronesix]

tygar,
About the 375 penetration?? I too don't know how to take the review of that. No matter. One way to look at it in a most general way is 375 300 gr vs 416 400 gr vs 458 500 gr keeping apples to apples with GOOD tough bullet or solid (including good cast) all should have similar potential for penetration. The zebra has a reputation for being on the tough side as are all African animals in a pound for pound comparison to similar NA animals. The zebra is not the size of an average horse but more the size of a very chunky large burro (zebra= wild a** of Africa).

As far as planning a hunt? Better sooner than later! No one has a crystal ball on the future of hunting in Africa. My gut and current knowledge tells me the following: Zambia has been struggling (fouled up ZAWA bureaucracy) with re-organized concessions and quotas. But Zambia has some of the best, most game rich areas in that part of Africa. Botswana is uncertain because of Chinese influence for land use. Parts of Mozambique are still uncertain because of local bureaucracies and again Chinese influence. Namibia remains positive but limited for some of the big, premium species. Tanzania is OK but expensive. Zimbabwe remains mostly OK. South Africa remains stable but much of the hunting there is different from the countries that still have some of the "old style, relatively remote" hunts. Just have to decide the type of hunt you want and with eyes wide open and do good research. If you like hunting and not just shooting, keep in mind the type and location of the hunt. With money, one of the mountain buffalo hunts in Tanzania would deserve a serious look for a real deal hunt. Research carefully the "type" of lion hunt if you choose to try lion. None of it is getting cheaper- if for no other reason than supply, demand and the uncertain future.

[tygar]

here's the zebra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqs543qxTHE

Really cool. Nice shot, liked the smoke coming out of that big old thing.

[tygar]

tygar,
About the 375 penetration?? I too don't know how to take the review of that. No matter. One way to look at it in a most general way is 375 300 gr vs 416 400 gr vs 458 500 gr keeping apples to apples with GOOD tough bullet or solid (including good cast) all should have similar potential for penetration.

As far as planning a hunt? Better sooner than later!

That's for sure. I was seriously looking to go in the 80s when Buff were about 2 or 3k(?) Whatever, way cheaper. Each year it gets higher.

I know about the Lion. None of those where they have one penned up & starved so he will go to their bait. Always thought the desert hunt for Lion would be fun. Oh well, could be dead tomorrow.

[fouronesix]

tygar,
Sounds like you're on top of it. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go. After diligent homework/planning, asking the tough questions and doing some character judgement, good hunts are available. I assure you, hunting there (under the right circumstances) is like none other anywhere. As they say "it gets in the blood". There are still many quality hunting companies in most countries.

[fouronesix]

I've always wondered how Tarzan dealt with hookthorn? As was suggested in an earlier post, acacia are common and could be used for scrambling up as vervet monkeys do when chased. Here's another type (member of the kapok family IIRC) that tends to be found in more open areas that might be the only choice if pursued by an ill-tempered tuskless cow elephant. :)

[sharpsguy]

I won't run and I can't climb. I will just have to stand my ground and shoot. FWIW, about 3 years ago, I shot an American bison bull that went about 2000 pounds with my 45-70 Sharps. The biggest of the six that I have taken. The shot was 84 yards, and the load was a 480 grain Lyman FN out of a 457121 mold. The powder charge was 66.5 grains of KIK 3f black powder for a chronographed velocity of 1242 fps. The bullet struck at the bottom rear of the left shoulder blade and came out the center of the off side shoulder blade. The bison took a step and a half and collapsed, not quite as quick as the zebra, but close. The bullet took out the big blood vessels at the top of the heart and punched through both lungs before it exited. The ranch manager said it was the quickest kill he had ever seen on a bison other than a head shot.

Now. The interesting thing is that the next weekend, a gentleman came with a 505 Gibbs shooting a factory soft, which I understand is a 535 grain soft at around 2300 fps. He took the same shot at about the same distance, and got the same hit on a bison that was for all intents and purposes a twin of the one I shot. The 505 Gibbs did not knock the bison down, and the bullet was not a complete pass through. The animal required about a 500 yard follow up to close the deal.

This is the same 45-70 that I carried to Africa, and the same load and bullet that I usually shoot. I do occasionally shoot a 511 grain paper patched bullet with a round nose, or a 520 grain round nosed Govt. grease groove bullet. I always load with black powder and in over 30 years have only recovered one bullet. Some of my friends shooting 350 to 450 grain bullets have recovered a couple, but it is rare. The 480 to 520 grain bullets always pass completely through. I have DVD footage showing pass through hits with the Govt. bullet on blue wildebeast at 312 yards--you can see the dust thrown up on the off side from the bullet exit.

I wish I could post pictures, as I have DVDs of two of my trips to Africa, and numerous animals taken beyond 300 yards with open barrel ladder sights and a blade front.

[tygar]

I won't run and I can't climb. I will just have to stand my ground and shoot. FWIW, about 3 years ago, I shot an American bison bull that went about 2000 pounds with my 45-70 Sharps. The biggest of the six that I have taken. .

I have been wanting to do a Bison hunt. I put in for the Alaskan Bison hunts for over 20yrs but never got drawn. (got drawn twice for Kodiak browns in premium areas but no Bison or Musk Ox) Have eaten it before & it was good. Being a old cowboy I wanted to do the old Indian thing riding up on horseback & use a bow.

As for your BP 45-70 Sharps, isn't that what they pretty much used to kill about 20 million of them?

Meant to ask, why BP? Just to use old timey guns when you take them?

What's it cost for a Bison hunt? I also looked into them a number of years ago & they weren't that expensive, but probably are now.

Try to post some pics of these.
Tom

[WilliamDahl]

Being a old cowboy I wanted to do the old Indian thing riding up on horseback & use a bow.

Depends upon what you consider "old Indian thing". Although the horse evolved in North America, it migrated to Asia during one of the Ice Age periods and then died off on the American continent. It wasn't until the Europeans came back here that the horse was reintroduced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse

[tygar]

Depends upon what you consider "old Indian thing". Although the horse evolved in North America, it migrated to Asia during one of the Ice Age periods and then died off on the American continent. It wasn't until the Europeans came back here that the horse was reintroduced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse

Come on man

[sharpsguy]

tygar--the Sharps accounted for a lot of buffalo, but the 45-70 not so much. The 45-70 as a caliber came along late in the game, and the 500 grain Government load didn't come along until 1881. The buffalo were shot for the most part by calibers such as the 44-77, 45-110, 50-70 and 50-90, and to a lesser extent, the big 40 calibers such as the 40-90 and the 40-90BN.

The buffalo were shot out using black powder, as smokeless powder was not developed until the buffalo harvest was over. I use black powder because it flat out works. I consistently get single digit extreme spreads over the chronograph with my 45-70 loads using black powder, and get tighter groups, especially at longer ranges. Recoil from the black powder is more of a push than a hard whack, and the guns are more pleasant to shoot.

I also enjoy the reaction of guys that have never seen one of these guns work when they see it for the first time. When I killed a blesbok in Natal at 451 yards with a first shot hit, the South Africans went absolutely nuts. My host tells me that the PH still tells everyone he meets about it. Bottom line, I guess, is that it flat out works, and is a whole lot of fun. I do know that on my range here at my house that goes to 504 yards, I can hit things with black powder and a Sharps that I can't hit with smokeless. That and the fact that with the 480 to 520 grain bullet weights, you almost always get complete pass through penetration from any angle for a quick kill.

[Ammohouse]

I would humbly submit the most dangerous animal to man any where is Man himself.
over estimating his skill or firearms will kill him.

Hmmm let's see.. one chance at temporary pain in an acacia, vs sure death If I miss my perfect placement shot.....

Heck.. too many years back, I've even scurried up a Texas mesquite after putting a pellet gun to a peccary balls, only to be run up the danged tree by shreaking snapping foaming pack of the critters....
HEY!!! you're only 10 once, and some lessons are learned quickly the hard way....I can still feel the sweaty thorn memories, laughing at my own stupid kid tricks.

On a bet I snuck up on a javelina and slapped it on the ***...yep still have memories of the mesquite thorns myself!

[blikseme300]

On a bet I snuck up on a javelina and slapped it on the ***...yep still have memories of the mesquite thorns myself!

Being in deep South Texas now and looking at the Mesquite I treat them the same as the Acacia, with respect. Yes, when I was a youngster in South Africa I was quite adventurous and paid the price of being stupid during a hunt, once only. Back then you did not have a PH to assist but maybe a local tracker. When the tracker runs try to keep up!

Been following this thread through its twists and turns and all I can add is that the 45-70 would probably work for taking all of the big 5 when the right shot is placed. Many Elephants, Hippos and Cape Buffalo have been taken using the .303 and 8x57 as these were the most common rifles for a long time. PH or not the retreat up a tree must be considered when things don't go as anticipated.

[Tom_in_AZ]

Too many people underestimate the power of the .45-70

[X-man]

here's the zebra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqs543qxTHE


What a fantastic shot! As an ethical hunter I wish all the animals I harvest will meet such a swift, sure and humane an end!

[micky_blue]

Being in deep South Texas now and looking at the Mesquite I treat them the same as the Acacia, with respect. Yes, when I was a youngster in South Africa I was quite adventurous and paid the price of being stupid during a hunt, once only. Back then you did not have a PH to assist but maybe a local tracker. When the tracker runs try to keep up!

Been following this thread through its twists and turns and all I can add is that the 45-70 would probably work for taking all of the big 5 when the right shot is placed. Many Elephants, Hippos and Cape Buffalo have been taken using the .303 and 8x57 as these were the most common rifles for a long time. PH or not the retreat up a tree must be considered when things don't go as anticipated.

Care to share any recipes for your boerewors and biltong? I have had biltong but never heard of the other.

[blikseme300]

Care to share any recipes for your boerewors and biltong? I have had biltong but never heard of the other.

Droewors is dried sausage similar to biltong. Think snap-sticks. The gotcha is not to use any pork in the sausage to be dried as it will go rancid.

There are many opinions regarding traditional biltong and boerewors that will make any family feud look tame by comparison. Depending from what part of the country you come the recipes will differ. With the birth of the Internet there are now too many "experts" telling us what genuine recipes are. Come on, did the trekboere use Worcestershire Sauce when making biltong? The basics are lean meat cut with the grain, salt, ground pepper, browned coriander and vinegar. All the other spices and additives are just perfume, IMHO. Yes, I am a Boer and grew up in the country and learned how to make traditional food from my grand parents. Vrystaat!

[horsesoldier]

I guess we learn something everyday!

[drinks]

I have eaten biltong and doerwors,( just means sausage), the items were sent from SA, I was not impressed with the biltong, in my opinion, good jerky is better, of course, to each his own. Much of the problem was likely the coriander seeds stuck on it. I detest coriander and the green plant form of it, cilantro.
The doerwors was a major disappointment, having been raised on smoked, dried, German/ Czech central Texas sausage it was tough, lacked flavor and was not well processed.
I make a lot of cured and smoked meats, mullet, carp, and sunfish , then several types of sausage, including kielbasa, pepperoni and salami as well as canadian bacon, cured and smoked pork steaks, cured and smoked beef steaks and jerky.

[fouronesix]

I don't speak German much less Afrikaans, so no help on terminology or recipes.

:) I remember a very hard, all-out 14 hour drive (across Zambia) in a loaded cruiser one time. We had a large paper sack of waterbuck biltong. It was very good and made the long, rough trip somewhat pleasant- even though some say waterbuck is the worst of all meat. IMO, most wild meats from Africa, either cooked or dried, are excellent! Bull buffalo roast is excellent as are the grilled chops. Oryx, kudu, impala, hartebeest, reedbuck, puku, etc. are all excellent! All the upland birds are excellent. Even elephant is very good tasting but yikes it's tough- a little easier on the jaw muscles if rehydrated in a soup or stew. Here's a pic of some elephant "magnum" biltong being dried over slow fire. Each strip is about 6" diameter and 4-5 ft long.

[blikseme300]

I have eaten biltong and doerwors,( just means sausage), the items were sent from SA, I was not impressed with the biltong, in my opinion, good jerky is better, of course, to each his own. Much of the problem was likely the coriander seeds stuck on it. I detest coriander and the green plant form of it, cilantro.
The doerwors was a major disappointment, having been raised on smoked, dried, German/ Czech central Texas sausage it was tough, lacked flavor and was not well processed.
I make a lot of cured and smoked meats, mullet, carp, and sunfish , then several types of sausage, including kielbasa, pepperoni and salami as well as canadian bacon, cured and smoked pork steaks, cured and smoked beef steaks and jerky.

Droewors translates to dry sausage. The biltong and droewors you got was definitely not the right stuff. Traditional biltong has no visible coriander seed, BTW. The commercial stuff sent here must be treated with preservatives and tastes off.

I enjoy the sausages made in the hill country and have included some of the central European style recipes to the variety of my sausage making as well. I plan on adding the smoked and fermented sausage making this summer when I get time off.

[hickfu]

Thats Pete, He is a member over on the Marlin Owners forum... He has tested the 45-70 against elephant skulls and it goes right through them! and humungous leg bones! A 45-70 can take out anything charging if you hit it in the head with a heavy hard cast boolit. People always give him **** when they see what rifle he has but they always want to get one after the hunt....

I love my 1895SBL Co-Pilot from Wild West Guns... If I had to choose 1 rifle to have and nothing else it would be that one.


Doc

[fouronesix]

I'll never forget the image of bwanaP jnr standing on the side of a 10,000 lb bull and shooting a 45-70 loaded with his 475 gr "kakuli" bullet straight down into the leg and shoulder with all the trackers, packers and game scouts standing around scratching their heads. :)

The most impressive bullets (to me anyway) during that round of testing on elephant skull, elephant hide, leg bones and buffalo hide and bones were a GS monolithic solid out of a 458 Express and a similar test of the North Fork monolithic cup nose "solid". The ones that penetrated all the way through and hit the backer tree (IIRC a large mopane, sausage tree or leadwood trunk?) were extremely hot. I guess due to the friction. Heck, I burned my fingers on one of them.

Make no mistake, bwanaP jnr is not the type to frivolously "hunt as a stunt", guide those doing so or shoot game like buffalo or elephant with arms not adequate for the job. So he has put a great deal of time and effort into testing and figuring out the strengths including the limitations of the 45-70.

[Iowa Fox]

drinks, Care to share any tips and pointers with us on your cured & smoked meats?