A Little help here please

[Beekeeper]

Please do not turn this post into the usual talk fest about something other than my question.
What is the max range you can consistantly shoot at and keep a decent pattern?
I see people shooting at 50 yards and saying it is great!
I seldom see anyone shooting past 100 yards.

The reason for asking is I get decent groups out to 200-300 yards but cannot hold the same past that and it is frustrating me to no end!
I have been a J word shooter since I was 12 and a caster since I was 25 but never thought to see just how far and how good I could get past 200 yards.

I doesn't seem to make any diference as to the rifle ,load or boolit.
I just cannot get a good consistant load and hold a good spot on target.
At 100 I can hold 1 1/2 inch
At 200 I can hold 2-21/2 inch
At 300 about 3 1/2 inch and past that I am lucky to hold them on target much less a pie plate.

So again I am looking for advice or info on what do you realy shoot at and do it consistantly?


beekeeper

[Frozone]

I depends on the sights used more than anything else.
35 years ago I could shoot good groups out to 300 with good iron sights. Now I struggle to group at 100 with the same sights,
It isn't the gun, the sights, or the load - it's my tired old eyes!

The truth is the group size should hold to the MoA rule as long as the bullet isn't transiting the sonic, and atmospherics are good.
After that it is the shooters ability. And lets face it, Most are not as good a shot as they like to believe they are.

<edit> Forgot to answer your question ;-)

I buy bigger optics every couple years. I'm up to 26x50 now and I can still match what I did with irons 35 years ago :cry:
</edit>

[osteodoc08]

Different rifles for different purposes.

Under 100 I like to use iron sights. This includes a Kimber 82G I use up to 50-75 yards. Past that I'm straining my eyes to much.

Under 300 I use my 22-250 with a nice 4-12x scope on it.

Up to 500 yards, I have a 25-06 Sako AIII that I have been trying out. It has a 6-18x on it.

So to answer your question, I prefer to have more magnification the further out. A solid stable and bench rest set up is paramount. I typically shoot 50-300 yards depending on what I bring and how I'm feeling. I can hold close to MOA most times at those distances with the appropriate set up in good conditions. Naturally my mistakes in form are amplified the further out I go and that is a reflection of me and not the gun. The further out, the more difficult to keep under MOA. Its therapeutic (and sometimes frustrating) trying to get those itty bitty groups at distance.

You do realize you are holding 1-1.5 MOA at those distances which is stellar. I see no issues with 3 to 3-1/2 at 300 yards. That IS consistent at those distances and if gettgin those groupings consistently, YOU ARE CONSISTENT.

Many an arm chair commando has shot 1-2" groups at 500 yards.......but I have yet to see them do it in person.

My suggestions:

A solid bench and solid bench rest set up.

High quality scopes with high magnification set up in a solid set up.

Custom rifle of your choosing. Or a produciton gun that has been bedded and floated at a minimum.

A cartridge you dont mind loading and shooting.

Work on the fundamentals.

[StrawHat]

You are holdin approximately 1 MOA out to 300 yards. Not bad shooting. Tighter would of course be better, but that is not bad shooting.

[popper]

Most don't have a range to shoot past 100 (wish I did). Actually, you are doing pretty good IMHO. The hunters around here sight in @ 100, call it good. Think you'll have to wait for response from the desert or country folks.

[jonp]

I'm going to hazard a guess that 90% of shooters can't do as well as you out to 300yrds. I think most have no business shooting at an animal past that distance and the majority should keep it to 250yrds from my observations.
I used to be able to do fairly well out to 600meters or so but I don't shoot that distance anymore so I can't do it now. I managed to qualify in Basic Training at Expert but now I doubt I could even see the target without a scope. I have not really shot much past 100yrds for some time as in the Northern Swamps 25yrds is an average shot so it wasn't needed.

[country gent]

with a scope,At 100 yds try a square 1 1/2-2" on a side increse size as yardage increases. The trick is to zero so group is in center of square when bracketing a corner of the square in the corner of the crosshairs. This can be seen the same everytime and with the group forming above and tothe side the aiming point isnt changing visibly. With Iron sights a round bull and a small line of white with the group forming above. Sunlight wind mirage can all affect the targets shape visibly.
I shot NRA high power for many years, with the M1A and good loads I could hold around minute of angle or there abouts. Also keep in mind a load that performs at 300yds may not at 600 or farther out. I also saw a few loads that performed better at 300 than 200. These were normally long for caliber boat tail VLD bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

Could be something as simple as your cast bullet loads are dropping subsonic past 300 yards and losing stability and accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

Practice, practice, practice.........

[Lead Fred]

You talkin scoped or ladder sights?

My scoped bolt gun hits BIC lighters at 550 yards. I use a 10 power mildot ex-navy seal scope. Shooting a 178gr A-Max @ 2880fps.
My 200 yard zero, is 3 shot groups @ 3/8 of an inch. When I used a 20 power, it was 1/4 inch, dang eyes.

On the ladder side, the 430gr cast rounds I shoot out of a Buffalo classic can hit a pint quart can full of paint @ 550 yards.
Not as good as the scope, but then neither are my old eyes.

You want small groups, far away, get the scope I have.

But dont believe me....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nky0voYC7gQ

http://www.gunblast.com/SWFA_Super_Sniper.htm

[35 shooter]

One thing i didn't see mentioned so far is a good parallax adj. scope. If a shooter doesn't have a consistant cheek weld and eye alignment with rifle stock and scope (head placement same same each shot) then parallax can really affect shooting at long range. However , it sounds like your doing things consistent or you wouldn't be doing so well at 300 yd. Good shooting by the way! Having said that , i don't use a parallax adj. scope on my hunting rifles anymore and rely more on consistent shooting form. If i were doing a lot of long range shooting for group however i might consider one for that tho. One other thing that can come into play is target size at longer ranges too as the crosshairs can cover more of the target center....i.e. bigger circles for longer ranges so you can more easily tell you have the target perfectly centered. If you haven't already done it, try a bigger target for distance. You obviously know how to dope wind and mirage or you wouldn't be shooting so well at 200 and 300 yd. so this was just a suggestion for things you may not have tried. Sounds like to me you handle your rifles very well tho.:grin: Don't know what all loads your using, so it could very well simply be what Larry Gibson posted.

[44man]

Larry has the best answer. Hardly anyone shoots cast to a high enough velocity to stay stable at long range. It just does not have enough spin to start with.
I found the BPCR I use with a 1 in 18" twist just loses it with a heavy boolit after a certain distance, got a few 1" groups at 100 but around the turkey line they start to wander and a ram is safe 90% of the time. A lighter boolit seems to hold on better because I can start it faster.
My BFR 45-70 with a 1 in 14" twist will out shoot my rifle all day.

[Beekeeper]

Thanks for the answers!
I sometimes get a little down in the dumps sitting between my best friends who shoot J words at 800 yards or more and hold 1 1/2 inch groups.
I am not gonna move but it helps to know that I am doing alright sometimes.
Thanks again for the answers.


beekeeper

[btroj]

Shootng good groups at long range takes more than just a good rifle and ammo. Long range accuracy requires a well made rifle, good ammo, and a shooter who knows what he is doing.

Take some time to play wht things. Watch the wind. Inspect bullets very carefully, small flaws can make a big difference the farther away the target is. How you hold the rifle and pull the trigger really matters. Make yourself a better long range shooter and a better caster and it will pay dividends.

If it was easy it wouldn't be very fun, would it?

[swheeler]

Thanks for the answers!
I sometimes get a little down in the dumps sitting between my best friends who shoot J words at 800 yards or more and hold 1 1/2 inch groups.
I am not gonna move but it helps to know that I am doing alright sometimes.
Thanks again for the answers.


beekeeper


You're setting between two of the greatest riflemen in the world, 1.5" groups at 800 yards are very, very remarkable.

[osteodoc08]

You're setting between two of the greatest riflemen in the world, 1.5" groups at 800 yards are very, very remarkable.

+1

I was super giddy with 1-1/2" groups with my scoped handgun the other day at 50 yards.

[Bohica793]

I found out yesterday that I hold better groups with my 45 Colt at 25 yards free handed rather than rested. I have a real hard time getting the front sight in focus rested with my trifocals. Damned old eyes.

[Scharfschuetze]

At 100 I can hold 1 1/2 inch
At 200 I can hold 2-21/2 inch
At 300 about 3 1/2 inch and past that I am lucky to hold them on target much less a pie plate.
beekeeper

Beekeeper,

Are you shooting three shot groups, five shot groups or 10 shot groups? If you are doing this with multiple 5 shot groups or a 10 shot group, you are shooting close to the magic MOA for groups through 300 yards. That is pretty good shooting and if you are doing this consistently, you are shooting as well or better than most of us here on average and you must have some accurate rifles. At ranges past 300 yards wind will start to have a significant impact on your horizontal dispersion and if you are shooting cast boolits at moderate velocities, you may have some issues with the transonic disruption of your boolit's flight, as Larry mentions above. In addition to that, other atmospheric issues such as mirage and light will have some impact on how you see the target and thus your actual point of aim on the target.

If you are interested in shooting at longer ranges and from various positions away from a bench rest, look into shooting the National Match course of fire or look into other long range events such as Silhouette shooting.

For National Match shooting look here:

http://odcmp.com/

For Silhouette shooting look here:

http://competitions.nra.org/how-to-get-started/silhouette-competition.aspx

By getting involved in these competitions, you will rub shoulders with some very good long range marksmen who are generally more than helpful with tips on the act of shooting at long range or loading ammo the does well at long range.

I assume that you are shooting off of a bench rest with the good groups that you posted so my final suggestions for improving your groups past 300 yards would be to use a good grade of match bullet such as Sierra Match Kings or the Hornady, Berger or the Nozzler renditions of heavy for calibre match bullets. Their grouping ability will remain constant no matter what the range until they drop below the supersonic threshold and they will generally still group well even below that. In standard calibres, depending on the bullet chosen, its velocity, humidity, temperature and the elevation of the range, most of the these match bullets will remain supersonic out to a thousand yards or even further if your rifling pitch is fast enough to stabilize them.

[Beekeeper]

Don't know about the greatest shooters swheeler.
Have gone with them to repaint targets and at 899 yards you can cover 6 shots with a folded in half dollar bill
There at least 3 shooters I personally know there that do it regulary so to them it isn't anything to crow about.
Me , I am happy just hitting the man target at 485 and keeping them on target at 300.


beekeeper

[AlaskanGuy]

Bee, i am with ya with the eyesight... Damm glasses and bi-focals and such keep me hunting at 200 yards... I love to play around at the 300 meter range, but 2 inch groups at 200 yards consistently, I am a happy camper... You are a way better shot then I am my friend...

:drinks: for your great shooting....

AG

[swheeler]

Don't know about the greatest shooters swheeler.
Have gone with them to repaint targets and at 899 yards you can cover 6 shots with a folded in half dollar bill
There at least 3 shooters I personally know there that do it regulary so to them it isn't anything to crow about.
Me , I am happy just hitting the man target at 485 and keeping them on target at 300.


beekeeper

They are great, some expensive equipment and a LOT of skill. You need to take notes;)

[David2011]

Thanks for the answers!
I sometimes get a little down in the dumps sitting between my best friends who shoot J words at 800 yards or more and hold 1 1/2 inch groups.
I am not gonna move but it helps to know that I am doing alright sometimes.
Thanks again for the answers.


beekeeper

Beekeeper, your 3-1/2" groups at 300 are excellent; nothing to be apologetic for at all. Moving to 400 or more raises the demands on the shooter and the equipment. Your friends are without question world class shooters. Learn all you can from them.

David

[Pb2au]

Practice. I'm still a student of rifle shooting after doing it for 20 years. Every time I shoot, I try to interpret and learn something new. When I started shooting cast in rifles, I started over again willingly.
Your range report represents good shooting, so that is a boon for you. So instead of learning to swim, now you can learn to swim efficiently.
I personally will only change one thing at a time when I'm testing a load. Less variables, easier to understand effect.

[DRNurse1]

I have seen (I scored it, but did not shoot it) a 100 (10 points each x 10 rounds in 10 minutes) at 50 yards with a 5 inch BBL 45ACP. The 10 ring is 3.36 inches dia. and the boolet needs only touch the ring so the total dia. could ave been just under 4.25 inches, but, IIRC, all of his rounds were inside the ring. He used one of those red dot sights with no magnification.

What I have managed is 10 rounds 4 1/2 inches wide x 14 inches high at 100yds with my 5inch 45ACP off of sandbags thanks to GoodSteel's New Year Challenge. I use open sights with about 7 1/4 inch sight radius.

While these are not up to you rifle guy standards, I am pleased to put up such a group with my target pistol. My target was done with ball ammo (230 grain PbRNFB over 5.8 grains of Winchester 231). I am SURE the fellow shooting the 100 did it with custom, lower power, loads. And I won't be trying out this particular gun and load combination @ 300 yards any time soon. It is subsonic at 10 yards so I might have to pick it up and throw it the last 50 feet.

[DIRT Farmer]

The best I have ever did is a palm sized group at 300 meters with lead and iron sights over cross sticks. I was shooting a muzzleloading rifle 540 grain slug started at less than sonic. These rifles reguraly shoot 1 MOA if the shooter can keep up.
Currently I am trying to chase 1 MOA with a 308 and a 24 power scope. It's not as easy as with a muzzleloader.

[StrawHat]

Using my 50-70 I had a perfect one hole group at 300 yards, (until I fired the second shot).

[leadman]

I know a preacher in Gillette Wyoming that, in a match, hit a 3" on the side triangle at 1,000 yards twice, with a bolt action pistol. He is a remarkable shooter with first class equipment. He is also a remarkable reader of the shooting conditions. I was spotting for him one day at 600 yards on a steel plate and could not tell him where in the group his shots were landing as the splatter was overlapping. This was in a 20mph + wind.
I do feel that reading the conditions is a very big part of shooting to 300 yards and beyond. Plus as Larry and 44man pointed out the boolits seem to lose their accuracy at longer ranges. I have shot some to 425 yards with cast and it is a real challenge with boolits sent down range at 1,700 fps in a 30 cal.
I am experimenting with jacketed velocities with boolits but can't seem to find the time to get out and shoot much.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Last time I went to a 600-yard rifle match, there were a couple of guys shooting "F-Class" that kept sixty rounds in the ten ring at 600 yards. The ten-ring is 12 inches, so that's sixty rounds with a bit less than 2 MOA. At 600 yards. Wind and all.

These guys were shooting on standard high-power targets, not the smaller F-Class targets.

dale in Louisiana

[NVScouter]

Only a few of my loads cast or jacketed dont hold well past 100y. My opinion is that they werent doing that great under 100y to begin with.

I shoot out to 500y with cast in my 375H&H regularly but some of my other rifles I've limited myself to 100-300y due to velocity and trajectory. I dont really think stability is a hard concept and simple changes in our loads fix them. A minor variation at 50y may not be noticed but at 300 it could be a shotgun blast.