45 acp alloy and leading

[Hickok]

Shooting a Kimber Royal 1911 with Lee tl 452-230 tc, 6 gr. Unigue, bullets cast of air cooled ww alloy, sized .452 and lubed with LLA/JPW.

I get leading at the throat of the barrel, right in front of the chamber for about 1/2 inch after one magazine of rounds. Should my alloy be harder since I get leading right at the throat? Maybe water quenching to harden the bullets? I am going to try dropping the powder charge down to 5.5gr of unigue and see if the leading disappears.

Any advice?

[gray wolf]

Air cooled WW should be fine,
Could be:
Bullet loaded to long and smashing into the lead in the chamber,
The chamber has a short sharp lead that is cutting the bullets.
Last suspect because of how you worded your post, to small of a bullet.

[Dale53]

Hickok;
You might want to "borrow" some conventionally sized and lubed bullets and give them a try just to see if it's a lube problem. I've had a Star luber/sizer since the seventies and a Lyman and RCBS before that and never got seriously involved in tumble lubing. I've done some experimenting with them recently but no long experience base to help you with tumble lube.

I was shooting next to a fellow club member (.45 Colt revolver) and he was having leading issues. I let him shoot a few of mine and not only did my loads not lead, it actually cleaned out his leading. So, lube and bullet styles (as well as alloy and size) DOES matter.

Just a suggestion...

Dale53

[idahoron]

Hickok, Are you using the 45-45-10 mix for the tumble lube? You can find the recipe for it here. I am using it on the Lee 230 gr round nose TL bullet. Ron

[bhn22]

I've seen a fair amount of leading in 1911s as you describe. It went away when I lapped my sizing die out to .453.

[Hickok]

Idahoron, yes That is what is I am using, I should have been more specific, about adding some mineral spirits. One coat, sized and then another coat, let dry and load.

I took the barrel out to set my seating depth for the boolit. Finally came out to 1.199" for for the "ker-plunk" cartridge fit in the chamber, no engraving of rifling on boolit, what little sticks out of the case at this setting. No jams or FTF with this length.

I use WW alloy in all my handguns and rifles with no trouble so I thought it would be OK in the 45ACP. I was a little confused as to the leading, thinking maybe the boolit was a little soft and was skidding in the rifling, or a little hard and was gas cutting. Then I pondered the idea that maybe the boolit was too small and was gas cutting, but I thought most 45 Acp barrels would work with a .452" bullet. Well I should know by now with cast loads, "Ain't nothing written in stone!" I am going to try all you fella's suggestions. Also I am using a light roll crimp and it mikes .470" right at the case lip.

First thing, I am going to slug my barrel and find true boolit diameter, (I should have in the first place.) Will try sizing in my Lyman Lubrisizer and use some Javelina lube.

My mold is throwing boolits at .453"+ so I can try some unsized and tumblelubed.

I cast some slugs with some hard 17-18 BHN alloy I have, and will cast some with 50/50 WW and lead for a softer boolit.

I also loaded some rounds at 5.5gr. Unigue, backing down the load, and will see if that helps.

The leading shows up with just 7 rounds, one mag, so it will be fairly easy to see if I am on the right track. I already tried upping the load to 6.5gr unigue and no joy.

I will post my progress, and accept any correction or guidance. I'm chasing the fat lady on this one, just got to catch her and make her sing!!!

[Hickok]

Sized the bore and groove diameter is .4512". Did notice one thing when setting up cartridge overall length. This kimber barrel has a very short and sharp leade in the throat area. Hope the sharp leade is not cutting the TC boolit on firing. I have the slug seated just off the lands.

Today I am going out and shoot some rounds unsized at .453-.454" as cast and tumble lubed. That should tell me if .002" over will work. The loaded rounds chambers chambers nicely, so no problem there.

The snow is knee deep to a tall Bigfoot here in WV, so I haven't been doing much accuracy testing, just function testing with this Kimber. It shoot like a laser with J bullets, but need to get the Silver boolits working!

[gtgeorge]

I suspect the bore as well. Needs to be slugged. I had a friend that was getting the same leading in his PT1911. He got some sized to .453 and it went away although he put another barrel so he could shoot .452.

[lka]

Shooting a Kimber Royal 1911 with Lee tl 452-230 tc, 6 gr. Unigue, bullets cast of air cooled ww alloy, sized .452 and lubed with LLA/JPW.

I get leading at the throat of the barrel, right in front of the chamber for about 1/2 inch after one magazine of rounds. Should my alloy be harder since I get leading right at the throat? Maybe water quenching to harden the bullets? I am going to try dropping the powder charge down to 5.5gr of unigue and see if the leading disappears.

Any advice?

I cast and shoot a couple different 45s out of my Kimber 1911 (eclipse custom target or some ****) and have never had any issues. I quench ww lead with 6.5 gr sr7625 for the hps and 5.5 for the round. I do size and lube in a lyman lube thingy.

[Hickok]

I suspect the bore as well. Needs to be slugged. I had a friend that was getting the same leading in his PT1911. He got some sized to .453 and it went away although he put another barrel so he could shoot .452.GTGeorge, I agree, boolit fit, boolit fit, boolit fit! I got off track on bullet hardness, and I know boolit fit is prime.

I pushed a .454" round ball through the barrel and it mikes .4512".

I'll fire some as-cast rounds today and see what happens.

[Buzz64]

MP 45 225 Large HP at 200gr sized to .451 with carnuba red and 4.9 of HP 38. 150 rounds at the range and not a trace of leading. 60/40 ww to pb.

[prs]

Hickok, like Grey Wolf suggested and you have observed, the abrupt leade may be your Huckelberry. AC WW alloy is plenty tough and hard for this application.

You mentioned use of roll crinp, hopefully slight enough to still seat on case mouth; but even if slight it may pinch up just a bit of lead that adds to the problem. Try a taper crimp set to closely match the inside case mouth diameter to you barrel chamber's inside seat diameter. Check your internal case size die to be sure its large enough for the lead booit diameter you choose, those made for J words will let the case downsize that once fat boolit. Seat and crimp in seperate stages. Try NRA 50:50 lube. I have recently been this route with Ruger SR1911s. If it is the sharp abrupt leade, use an awle to trace around the chamber end to make sure a ring of lead is not packed there in.

prs

[RobS]

Pull a boolit on your .452's and see what the base is after seating/crimping. If you don't have leading with the larger diameter boolits then you are likely swaging the boolit down at the base and the result is gas cutting/leading.

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2% tin to the WW alloy (all WW alloys are not the same. Many are deficient in tin). Try LLA straight as per the instructions.

Larry Gibson

[Hickok]

A progress report. I shot 7 rounds of the ACWW as cast .453+", tumble lube, 45/45/10 lube, 6 gr. Unigue. Still leading at throat.
Tried some 17 BHN hard alloy cast boolits and it was a disaster. As cast and tumble-lubed, leaded all the way out the barrel, yuk.
Left hand twist and the right side of the lands, the driving side, had lots of lead clear to the muzzle.

So now I am going to go the other direction with a softer alloy, will try 50/50 ww and lead. If that dog wont hunt, I will try sizing to .451" and see what happens.

I have been expanding my cases with a Lyman M die for the 45 colt as my 45 ACP dies are RCBS variety, and get a nice easy bullet seat, starting the bullet with finger pressure to the first micro lube groove before seating. Also seating in one operation and a light roll crimp in another.

I did pull some boolits to check and make sure the case wasn't sizing down the slug, but everything mikes out OK.

I cast for other handguns, all revolvers, standard and magnum, and rifles, but this is my first cast venture in semi auto pistols,
and it is becoming a learning experience. Was going to start casting for my Beretta 92 9mm (I hear the 9mm can be cranky) but I need to get some education and learning experience with the 1911 first.

[gtgeorge]

It sounds to me like the advice on your barrel throat lead may be your culprit. I have never been a fan of tumble lube but others have good results with it. Watching to see what you do find but doubt going down to .451 will solve anything. Did you do a slug check part way in from the throat side without pusing all the way through?

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2% tin to the WW alloy (all WW alloys are not the same. Many are deficient in tin).

Try LLA straight as per the Lee instructions.

Larry Gibson

[pmer]

When I read these posts about terrible leading my first thought is the reloading process.

I just loaded some target velocity 45 ACP. These are 185 SWC bevel base, grease groove boolits and they are shooting good for me. I started with 4.2/bullseye and stopped at 4.4 grains because it cycles and groups good. I used a taper crimp that measures about .472 - .473 at the case mouth. No roll crimp. I also seat and crimped separately - the idea is to not push up a ring of lead as the case mouth is going in for the crimp. You want to see the brass colored edge of the case against the boolit. If you don't see the edge of the case all the way around the boolit, it basically amounts to a lose piece of lead in the barrel that the boolit has to slide over.

That will generally fix most 1911 leading issues along with not seating too long to keep the boolit from hitting the rifling.

[RobS]

WW alloy, WW/plain lead-50/50, WW/plain lead-40/60, or even WW/Lino-50/50 and I've never had to add any tin to make a 45 auto shoot without leading. The higher antimony alloy did have some antimony wash right at the muzzle but not chunks of lead or leading from the throat to the muzzle etc. Any leading had to do with undersized boolits (either from sizing too small or swage down in the reloading process somewhere) and then the other leading problems were due to throat issues.

Tin can be helpful though in higher pressure rounds as I've come to find out and it could help with lower pressure rounds too however in a 45 auto I just can't see this being the ultimate issue.

[arjacobson]

A progress report. I shot 7 rounds of the ACWW as cast .453+", tumble lube, 45/45/10 lube, 6 gr. Unigue. Still leading at throat.
Tried some 17 BHN hard alloy cast boolits and it was a disaster. As cast and tumble-lubed, leaded all the way out the barrel, yuk.
Left hand twist and the right side of the lands, the driving side, had lots of lead clear to the muzzle.

So now I am going to go the other direction with a softer alloy, will try 50/50 ww and lead. If that dog wont hunt, I will try sizing to .451" and see what happens.

I have been expanding my cases with a Lyman M die for the 45 colt as my 45 ACP dies are RCBS variety, and get a nice easy bullet seat, starting the bullet with finger pressure to the first micro lube groove before seating. Also seating in one operation and a light roll crimp in another.

I did pull some boolits to check and make sure the case wasn't sizing down the slug, but everything mikes out OK.

I cast for other handguns, all revolvers, standard and magnum, and rifles, but this is my first cast venture in semi auto pistols,
and it is becoming a learning experience. Was going to start casting for my Beretta 92 9mm (I hear the 9mm can be cranky) but I need to get some education and learning experience with the 1911 first.
You beat me to it! I run 50/50 lead in all my 45's. 50%ww and 50% pure soft lead. I tumble lube every bullet with 45-45-10. I sometimes get a small smear right where you are getting yours. This is after a few hundred rounds though.. Bore shines like a mirror after all these years though!

[BD]

Alloy, and hardness, have very little to do with leading in a 45 acp 1911. In the short run size .451, then borrow a throating reamer and spend the 60 seconds to throat it. There will be a lot of folks who will claim heresy at this advice, (.452 no matter what!), but I'm now at 50 Kimbers and counting, and it's worked every time.
BD

[gray wolf]

(eclipse custom target or some ****)

I do size and lube in a lyman lube thingy.
I love your choice of nomenclature. :drinks:

[Forrest r]

Could you post what your oal is?

It sounds like bullet skidding to me.

[Char-Gar]

Many folks who go to cast bullet after shooting jacketed bullets expect the cast bullet to leave the barrel looking like jacketed bullets did. They will not.

It is common to have a light lead wash ahead of the chamber in a 1911 barrel when shooting cast bullets. This is a combination of lead and bullet lube. If it can be removed with a dozen back and forth strokes with a good fitting brush and solvent, then you don't have a problem. If not, then you need to trace down the source of the issue.

We have many folks that come here with issues that really are non-issues, it is the expectations that are out of kilter.

[gray wolf]

Many folks who go to cast bullet after shooting jacketed bullets expect the cast bullet to leave the barrel looking like jacketed bullets did. They will not.

It is common to have a light lead wash ahead of the chamber in a 1911 barrel when shooting cast bullets. This is a combination of lead and bullet lube. If it can be removed with a dozen back and forth strokes with a good fitting brush and solvent, then you don't have a problem. If not, then you need to trace down the source of the issue.

We have many folks that come here with issues that really are non-issues, it is the expectations that are out of kilter.
Agreed ^^

[Hickok]

Success at last! First, thanks to each of you for taking the time and effort to help.

The RCBS dies I have for 45ACP are not the best for cast. My seating die is too tight, a case with a boolit, is a very tight fit all the way in the die until the boolit is seated. So I used my Lyman 45 Colt seating die to seat the bullet to proper depth. Bullet and case had plenty of room and went up into seating die nicely. And no, I dont expand my cases to look like the end of a trumpet, just enough to seat a boolit with finger pressure about 1/16" deep, and then run it into the seating die.

I had to use my Lyman 45 Colt "M" die to expand the case for the cast boolit, as the RCBS expander didn't expand the case enough to easliy seat the slug without swaging the bullet somewhat.

So I ordered a set of Lyman 45 ACP dies. The RCBS dies I have are just to small in some demensions for cast slugs.

I also lessoned the roll crimp to .473" at the edge of the case mouth. Seat in one operation and crimp in another.

Lastly, I seated the boolit deeper so the edge of the case is just at the edge of the ogive of the truncated bullet, 1.173" oal in my barrel. Backed the powder charge down to 5.7 gr./Unigue, as the boolit is seated deeper in the case. As BD says, the throat seems abrupt and sharp. I seated this way so the boolit doesn't get shaved when entering the chamber. As per BD's advice, a nice throating job would be a good thing.

I have to agree with you Char-gar, you are right on the money. After shooting with 5.7gr Unigue, ACWW, tumble lube as cast, just a very light frosting in the area in front of the chamber. Five passes with Brownells Bronze Wool wrapped on a plastic bore brush and the barrel looked like a mirror.

I am happy, happy, happy. All things considered, the RCBS dies seem to be the main issue, they worked well for me with J-bullets, but are just too tight demensioned for cast boolits. I have always used Lyman dies for cast boolits, but this time I didn't. Also I was part of the problem, as loading for a semi- auto is a different game than a revolver. I learned alot of new info, and again thanks to all for the help.

I will say that 6.5gr of Unigue and a 230gr slug is too much of a good thing, kicks like a mule!

The 5.7gr Unigue/ 230 lee boolit is a good load in my pistol, and is shooting 2-2.5" groups for me @ 25 yards off a bench when I hold true through the snow flakes, so I will stay with it. I will chronograph it when the weather improves.:-D

[Char-Gar]

Before you buy a new set of dies, clean the inside of the seating die very well with good old isopropyl alcohol. Lube tends to accumulate there and can cause the difficulties you experienced. Tumble lube which also coats the outside of the bullet body will make it worse.

45 ACP jacketed and cast bullets are the same size at .451 - .452 and should use the same seating die just fine. The difference being the bullet lube, which as Shakespeare says; "Ay there is the rub!".

Some years back I posted a thread that ran on for quite some length, trying to define what constitutes "leading" as that term is thrown about by folks on this board. Almost all agreed that a light lead wash coupled with lube and powder trash is considered normal and is not "leading" as that term is commonly understood. The problems comes when new folks read about a load not leading, and then have the expectations the bore will look like it did with jacketed bullets, which is seldom if ever the case.

An untold number of new cast bullet shooters have gone round and round like a dog chasing their tails trying to cure a supposed problem that does not exist. They just have the wrong expectations.

It was suggested by several board members at the time, the thread should be made a sticky, but it didn't make the cut.

When comparing various loadbooks for the 45 ACP, you will find top end charges of Unique to vary quite a bit. Like you I found 6.5 grains to be to stout for my liking. I keep going back every time to Bullseye powder. The round and pistol was developed with this powder and it was used exclusively prior to WWII in arsenal and commercial 45 ACP loads. It continued in commercial ammo for quite a few years after WWII. A charge of 4.5 to 5 grains will be just right depending on the weight of the bullet. Bulleye powder in the 45 ACP is a winner every time.

[Hickok]

Thanks Char-Gar. You would'nt have a link to the "Leading thread" would you? I would find it quite interesting. Good heads up on the Bulleye, I didn't know those details. I will try to find some. Around "Hooterville" sometimes it is hard to find various powders!

The worst case of leading I ever had was when I had turned 21 years old (1976) and was able to buy my first hand gun, a Ruger BlackHawk .357 Magnum. I bought two 50 round boxes of factory 357 mag. 158 SWC gas check loads for the brass so I could reload.

I didn't get through the first box before I couldn't hit the target at 25 yards. I removed the cylinder and looked down the barrel, I couldn't see any rifling, only what looked like cat whiskers and porcupine quills! I'll never forget cleaning that barrel out.

As you said a gray wash is normal, and most times, seems to me a boolit shoots better with a wash, than with a squiky clean bore.

Well, next I want to tackle my Berretta 92 9mm. I read the sticky about getting started with the 9mm, and it has a lot of good pointers!

[Char-Gar]

It is likely those factory 357 Mag lead SWC loads didn't have a gas check. They were just swaged plain base bullets and hence the leading. This is what prompted Ray Thompson to design 358156 and the rest of us to cast and shoot that bullet. It only took me one box of that stuff to see the light back in 63.

The early 44 Magnum factory ammo had a gas check of sorts but not the 357 Magnum.

I have not found the 9mm difficult to load with cast bullets. Just size .357 or .358 and keep the velocity to 1,000 to 1,100 fps. They need a taper crimp just like the 45 ACP. I bought a bunch of AA5 some years back and have had good luck with it in the 9mm. Israeli Military Industries developed this powder for the 9mm round. I used 5.7/AA5 under a 125 grain cast bullets. Why 5.7? because that is what the RCBS Little Dandy rotor #5 throws. This is not a top end load, but it operates every 9mm pistol I put them through as well as an UZI carbine.

The accuracy potential of the 9mm depends on using cases of the same make and of the same length. Use mixed make cases and lengths and you will have pattern and not groups.

I doubt is there is anything magic about AA5, it is just what I have. Appropriate charges of Bulleye or Unique will work as well.

Ed Harris tell of loading huge amounts of cast bullets in the 9mm round while at Ruger. He used a 124 grain SAECO truncated cone bullet, which cast at .358 and shot with a light coat of LLA over 3.6/Bulleye. He states this load gave 1030 +- 30fps, grouped 2 inches at 25 yards and would outshoot most FMJ ball. I would take this as holy writ.

[mikeym1a]

Idahoron, yes That is what is I am using, I should have been more specific, about adding some mineral spirits. One coat, sized and then another coat, let dry and load.

I took the barrel out to set my seating depth for the boolit. Finally came out to 1.199" for for the "ker-plunk" cartridge fit in the chamber, no engraving of rifling on boolit, what little sticks out of the case at this setting. No jams or FTF with this length.

I use WW alloy in all my handguns and rifles with no trouble so I thought it would be OK in the 45ACP. I was a little confused as to the leading, thinking maybe the boolit was a little soft and was skidding in the rifling, or a little hard and was gas cutting. Then I pondered the idea that maybe the boolit was too small and was gas cutting, but I thought most 45 Acp barrels would work with a .452" bullet. Well I should know by now with cast loads, "Ain't nothing written in stone!" I am going to try all you fella's suggestions. Also I am using a light roll crimp and it mikes .470" right at the case lip.

First thing, I am going to slug my barrel and find true boolit diameter, (I should have in the first place.) Will try sizing in my Lyman Lubrisizer and use some Javelina lube.

My mold is throwing boolits at .453"+ so I can try some unsized and tumblelubed.

I cast some slugs with some hard 17-18 BHN alloy I have, and will cast some with 50/50 WW and lead for a softer boolit.

I also loaded some rounds at 5.5gr. Unigue, backing down the load, and will see if that helps.

The leading shows up with just 7 rounds, one mag, so it will be fairly easy to see if I am on the right track. I already tried upping the load to 6.5gr unigue and no joy.

I will post my progress, and accept any correction or guidance. I'm chasing the fat lady on this one, just got to catch her and make her sing!!!


My .45 is an old AutoOrdance, and I mixed 10lbs of WW's with one lb of 50/50, for alloy. I use the Lee 200gr swctl. No sizing. Just cast, lube, and shoot. Never had any leading problem. I guess I got lucky. BTW, did you slug the bore? good luck. mikey :-D

[Hickok]

Char-Gar I have some of my old reload notes and shooting info I had wrote down, (always kept notes), some are the same color as the Declaration of Independance! You are right, those factory rounds were Winchester .357 Mag. 158SWC Lubaloy. No mention of gas check. I do recall even now, that I couldn't hear right after shooting them. I never heard of any hearing protection in my younger days!

Also have my first boolit mold I got for that Blackhawk, a Lee 150gr. SWC single cavity with two lube grooves. I don't think they make it anymore. After that I got the Lyman 358429 and use it my Model 19 and Model 686.

Thanks for the 9mm data. I have notice also a big difference in 9mm brass over the years. Some brands are thinner than others and wont provide proper neck tension to keep from bullet setback. I could take some brands and push the J-bullet back in the case with finger pressure. This could be dangerous in a case as small a 9mm.

I appreciate the heads up on the brass, it got me thinking about my previous problems with 9mm reloads. Haven't loaded any in a good while, and you make a point well taken! I am making a note, in my 9mm data.

Ed Harris definately has the credentials and the know how. Been reading his writings for years

Also thanks Mike for the good wishes. Yep, I slugged the bore and it came out to .4512" The cast loads are working fine for me now! I see in you username, M1A. I have a Springfield NM M1A and love it!

[6bg6ga]

Shooting a Kimber Royal 1911 with Lee tl 452-230 tc, 6 gr. Unigue, bullets cast of air cooled ww alloy, sized .452 and lubed with LLA/JPW.

I get leading at the throat of the barrel, right in front of the chamber for about 1/2 inch after one magazine of rounds. Should my alloy be harder since I get leading right at the throat? Maybe water quenching to harden the bullets? I am going to try dropping the powder charge down to 5.5gr of unigue and see if the leading disappears.

Any advice?

I have a few questions. What are you using for a sizer and sizer dies? The reason I ask is I used to use Lyman bullet molds with WW lead and a used 450 sizer. The result was leading and keyholeing. I purchased some used Magma bullet molds and a Star/Magma sizer with Lathesmith sizing dies. The result is no more leading or keyholeing.

My thought is its more a diameter problem than it is a result of the alloy. After I sold the 450 and the Lyman molds I have experienced no more problems.

Some comments ahave been given as to the length.... bullet into the lead of the chamber. My experience tells me that is wasn't a factor with my 45acp's.

I would suspect the following.... Bullet too small diameter. Bullet sized incorrectly / out of round.

[Hickok]

6BG, I used a LYman 450 and a .452" sizing die. I mike the sized bullets and they were on. I have read reports where the lubrisizer can cause some problems when slightly out of line.

My unsized as cast boolits acww with tumble lube are shooting just fine. Just got to try some cast with 50/50 acww/pb and I believe they are slightly better yet than the straight ww alloy! I always throw in a bit of tin into my pot also, even when casting pure lead minies, seems to help the fillout. It also helps to have a nice shiney silver bullet for werewolves!!!

Been a little nippy shooting, as right now we have 6 degrees above zero.

[Hickok]

Just a picture for you all.

[6bg6ga]

6BG, I used a LYman 450 and a .452" sizing die. I mike the sized bullets and they were on. I have read reports where the lubrisizer can cause some problems when slightly out of line.

My unsized as cast boolits acww with tumble lube are shooting just fine. Just got to try some cast with 50/50 acww/pb and I believe they are slightly better yet than the straight ww alloy! I always throw in a bit of tin into my pot also, even when casting pure lead minies, seems to help the fillout. It also helps to have a nice shiney silver bullet for werewolves!!!

Been a little nippy shooting, as right now we have 6 degrees above zero.

I'm thinking you need a little more diameter. See if someone you know has a .453 batch of bullets and get your hands on 50 of them for a trial.

[RobS]

Hickok:

Nice Pic! Gun & Bullet Porn :-o

[Char-Gar]

I see this thread is still alive, so here is a little personal history factoid about bullet hardness in the 45 ACP.

When I first started with the 45 autopistol, it was often stated in print, that a hard alloy was needed to take and hold the shallow rifling in the barrels of these pistols. So I used linotype as it was the hardest things around, and it worked reasonable well.

This was placed in print by folks who I assumed knew what they were talking about including Elmer Keith.

When Speer brought out it's 200 grain swaged SWC which looked like H & G 68 I bought a few to give them a try. I was in grad school and was short of time. I expected poor accuracy due to the hyper soft alloy and could not figure why Speer would market such obvious dud. To my surprise these soft swaged bullet gave accuracy equal to or better than my hard alloys and zilch in the leading department. So much for needing hard alloy to take and hold the rifling.

It was about this time, I got involved in Bulleye pistol matches and found the competitors there had broken the code on the bogus need for hard alloy several generations before.

Misinformation gets placed in print (or on the net) and folks assume it is true. It gets repeated and repeated until it takes on the status of fact which it never way. It them becomes almost impossible to get folks to back away from it as it has the ring of established truth, when in fact it is just an "old wives tale".

From time to time, I read on this site a post where somebody repeats this myth, so it is not entirely dead. It is sort of like Jason in Friday the 13th.

Even the supposed experts are not exempt from presenting unproved theory as fact. My mantra in all these matters is "If you ain't done it, don't talk about it!".

[Char-Gar]

Another little personal history factoid, this time about sizing diameter for the 45 ACP round in the 1911 pistol.

I started sizing my bullets .452 as I also shot the same bullets in several sixguns that had .452 barrel groove diameters. They worked just fine in my 1911 pistols, so I just used that sized for a couple of hundred thousand rounds in a number of pistols with good result over a number of years.

Then one day I measured on of the .452 slugs and it measured .453 and I suspect it had so measured all along.

Conclusions:

1. Sizing dies often lie about their diameter.

2. .452 - .453 works just fine in every one of the dozens of 1911 pistols I have tried them in.

[DougGuy]

will cast some with 50/50 WW and lead for a softer boolit.

I was going to suggest that alloy also, but add 2% tin to it, this works in my .44 Mag like magic!

Most people use a taper crimp with the ACP, I never tried a roll crimp because it's not meant for one.

Do you have any 231 around? 5.3gr would work good if you want to try a diff but well tested powder.

[12DMAX]

I have to to back my die off and run my seating stem almost out of threads with rcbs. .453 bullet with M flare is too fat for my die and starts to close case mouth before even getting to stem leaving me with a nice little ring of lead undetected to the eye but one trip around with the fingernail tells the truth.

[Char-Gar]

I have to to back my die off and run my seating stem almost out of threads with rcbs. .453 bullet with M flare is too fat for my die and starts to close case mouth before even getting to stem leaving me with a nice little ring of lead undetected to the eye but one trip around with the fingernail tells the truth.

I found your post and problem somewhat cryptic, most likely due to use of terms. Here is my response..

1. There is no such thing as a "M flare" in RCBS dies. the "M die" is a Lyman product and quite different from the expanders used by other makers.
2. Below is a pic of the M die expander from my Lyman 45 ACP dies. You will not a distinct two step expander. The first and longer step expands the cases mouth .449 and the second shorter step expands the top of the case mouth .455, plenty big for .453 bullets. There is no flair at all, just two steps. In use the bullet is started into the larger (.455) portion of the case and then placed into the seating die for seating.
3. The RCBS and other makes do use an expander which puts a flair or bell on the case mouth. The amount of this is determined by the reloader depending on how far down into the case he shoves the expander.

If you are using the RCBS type expander and having the problems you state, there is an issue with the adjustment of the seating die for you should have no problem seating .453 bullet in your RCBS die. Here is what I think is going on and how to properly adjust the seating die.

1. Take a sized but unexpanded case and place it in your shell holder and run the ram to the top of the stroke.
2. Now screw the die down until the case mouth hits the crimp ring in the die. You can feel this quite easy. Now back the die off a smidge to make certain there is no contact between the case mouth and the crimp ring in the die.
3. With the seating stem backed way off, place a bullet in a case and adjust the stem to locate the bullet at the depth you want in the loaded round.

Now here is where you are having a problem.....You most likely are trying to seat and crimp in the same operation and the crimp is turning the case mouth in shave some lead before the bullet is fully seated. It has nothing to do with the extra .001 or .002 bullet diameter.

Buy a Taper Crimp die and use it to crimp AFTER all cases have been charged and the bullet seated to the proper depth. With the 45 ACP round, seating and crimping should be done in different dies and different operations and a taper crimp used. I won't run on and give instructions on how to adjust a taper crimp die as I have run on too long.

[Hickok]

I was going to suggest that alloy also, but add 2% tin to it, this works in my .44 Mag like magic!

Most people use a taper crimp with the ACP, I never tried a roll crimp because it's not meant for one.

Do you have any 231 around? 5.3gr would work good if you want to try a diff but well tested powder.I may be mudding up the water when I say roll crimp. Sorry for the confusion.

I am not "roll crimping" the case in the sense as used in a 44 mag, but merely truing up the "flare" or enlargement made by the expander die. I checked the case in the chamber to make sure I am headspacing off the front edge of the case. "Roll Crimp" is the wrong term, sorry.

I don't want anyone to "Roll Crimp" the ACP case, as the headspace needs a good square case lip to be correct. I have to be more careful and precise in my wording.

[12DMAX]

I found your post and problem somewhat cryptic, most likely due to use of terms. Here is my response..

1. There is no such thing as a "M flare" in RCBS dies. the "M die" is a Lyman product and quite different from the expanders used by other makers.
2. Below is a pic of the M die expander from my Lyman 45 ACP dies. You will not a distinct two step expander. The first and longer step expands the cases mouth .449 and the second shorter step expands the top of the case mouth .455, plenty big for .453 bullets. There is no flair at all, just two steps. In use the bullet is started into the larger (.455) portion of the case and then placed into the seating die for seating.
3. The RCBS and other makes do use an expander which puts a flair or bell on the case mouth. The amount of this is determined by the reloader depending on how far down into the case he shoves the expander.

If you are using the RCBS type expander and having the problems you state, there is an issue with the adjustment of the seating die for you should have no problem seating .453 bullet in your RCBS die. Here is what I think is going on and how to properly adjust the seating die.

1. Take a sized but unexpanded case and place it in your shell holder and run the ram to the top of the stroke.
2. Now screw the die down until the case mouth hits the crimp ring in the die. You can feel this quite easy. Now back the die off a smidge to make certain there is no contact between the case mouth and the crimp ring in the die.
3. With the seating stem backed way off, place a bullet in a case and adjust the stem to locate the bullet at the depth you want in the loaded round.

Now here is where you are having a problem.....You most likely are trying to seat and crimp in the same operation and the crimp is turning the case mouth in shave some lead before the bullet is fully seated. It has nothing to do with the extra .001 or .002 bullet diameter.

Buy a Taper Crimp die and use it to crimp AFTER all cases have been charged and the bullet seated to the proper depth. With the 45 ACP round, seating and crimping should be done in different dies and different operations and a taper crimp used. I won't run on and give instructions on how to adjust a taper crimp die as I have run on too long.

I was responding to the OP's statement below. What I was saying is that I too found my rcbs seating die a bit tight when trying to seat a .453 bullet into a case flared by a Lyman M die so i backed the die body off as far as i could so my case was barely entering the die and i still had enough stem to get proper OAL. I discovered that before i was doing this the case mouth was being closed up as the bullet was being seated and shaving some lead. I always crimp in a seperate step.



The RCBS dies I have for 45ACP are not the best for cast. My seating die is too tight, a case with a boolit, is a very tight fit all the way in the die until the boolit is seated. So I used my Lyman 45 Colt seating die to seat the bullet to proper depth. Bullet and case had plenty of room and went up into seating die nicely. And no, I dont expand my cases to look like the end of a trumpet, just enough to seat a boolit with finger pressure about 1/16" deep, and then run it into the seating die.

[lka]

955339553595536

Maybe this will help,

Kimber 1911 stainless barrel with about 500 cast rounds through it before cleaning, I will clean it with the otos kit using their lube and what-not and it will be like a mirror again with little work....

[Good Cheer]

I see this thread is still alive, so here is a little personal history factoid about bullet hardness in the 45 ACP.

When I first started with the 45 autopistol, it was often stated in print, that a hard alloy was needed to take and hold the shallow rifling in the barrels of these pistols. So I used linotype as it was the hardest things around, and it worked reasonable well.

This was placed in print by folks who I assumed knew what they were talking about including Elmer Keith.

When Speer brought out it's 200 grain swaged SWC which looked like H & G 68 I bought a few to give them a try. I was in grad school and was short of time. I expected poor accuracy due to the hyper soft alloy and could not figure why Speer would market such obvious dud. To my surprise these soft swaged bullet gave accuracy equal to or better than my hard alloys and zilch in the leading department. So much for needing hard alloy to take and hold the rifling.

It was about this time, I got involved in Bulleye pistol matches and found the competitors there had broken the code on the bogus need for hard alloy several generations before.

Misinformation gets placed in print (or on the net) and folks assume it is true. It gets repeated and repeated until it takes on the status of fact which it never way. It them becomes almost impossible to get folks to back away from it as it has the ring of established truth, when in fact it is just an "old wives tale".

From time to time, I read on this site a post where somebody repeats this myth, so it is not entirely dead. It is sort of like Jason in Friday the 13th.

Even the supposed experts are not exempt from presenting unproved theory as fact. My mantra in all these matters is "If you ain't done it, don't talk about it!".

Nailed it. I gave up on "gun writers". Stuff keeps getting repeated. One repeats another and one persons guess or isolated observation soon becomes the all encompassing truth.
For my part I'm still pursuing perfection with that goofy gas checked 452484 that was rejected by quality control at Lyman for the cherry being inserted too deeply into the blocks and is now hugely hollow pointed. Leading has not been a problem with scrap metal and homebrew lube.

[Pitchnit]

I had exactly the same problem and got the same advice that took care of the issues just like you. About the same time I found a Lyman 450 and carnuba red. Works great. Enjoy, these guys are good.

[singleshot]

I can push a 230 gr pure lead, LLA lubed boolit to over 900 fps in every one of my 45 acp's with no leading, no gas checks, and better accuracy than I'm capable of. I contend there is no such thing as too soft lead in the 45 acp. For simplicity and cost, I usually shoot straight wheel weights. When that dries up, I'll shoot pure lead.

[Hickok]

I had exactly the same problem and got the same advice that took care of the issues just like you. About the same time I found a Lyman 450 and carnuba red. Works great. Enjoy, these guys are good.Pitchnit I totally agree. Most of my casting has been for S&W and Ruger revolvers. Never shot cast in an semi auto pistol before, and I fell for the old myth "45 ACP barrels have shallow rifling and require hard bullets inorder to shoot well" There are two kinds of oats you can buy, the kind in front of the horse and the kind in back of the horse, and this "tip" is the kind in back of the horse!!!

I really thank each and everyone for the advice and taking the time to help. I have the Kimber shooting cast boolits nicely now, and I can afford to shoot it much more! And yes these guys are outstanding.

I can sit and read stickies for hours in total enjoyment!

[larrupin]

Hickok, I sure am glad you started this thread cause I just learned a ton reading through it.
Great responses guys, Thanks for the info, especially Char-gar!

Larrupin

[Hickok]

You are very welcome. It was sure a learning process for me, and I received a wealth of help.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

+1 for a good thread and discussion , without any bad blood...Nice guys. Jim

[Hickok]

Alloy, and hardness, have very little to do with leading in a 45 acp 1911. In the short run size .451, then borrow a throating reamer and spend the 60 seconds to throat it. There will be a lot of folks who will claim heresy at this advice, (.452 no matter what!), but I'm now at 50 Kimbers and counting, and it's worked every time.
BDBD has it pinned down when it comes to my Kimber barrel. The throat area is abrupt and sharp, and like he says from considerable experience with Kimbers, throating it out would be the easy way to cure the problem.

My trial and error way finally worked, but again, I believe BD has the answer.

With the shoulder or ogive of the boolit seated out of the case, I think the sharpness of the throat was shaving the boolit as it entered the chamber.

By seating the boolit with the case flush or even with the shoulder/ogive of the truncated boolit, the boolit chambers without shaving lead. Anyway, it shoots lead free now.

[kbstenberg]

As soon as I get home from my Hospital Recoup. I also am going to start loading for my first auto 45. Kevin

[Hickok]

As soon as I get home from my Hospital Recoup. I also am going to start loading for my first auto 45. KevinI wish you all the best with the healing process, and hope you get back to the "man cave" real soon!

[Char-Gar]

Guys...I have a very long love affair with the "45 Automatic" pistol. I have loaded hundreds of thousands of round for them and every one with a cast bullet. the 45 ACP round is a great efficient and accurate round that is very easy to load once you understand how the gizmo works. We have over a hundred years experience loading the round in the 1911 pistol and there are no secrets left to discover.

I am very glad to see new folks taking up this great pistol and round and am delighted to be of some help every time I can. For fun here are my three current 1911 pistols, a Colt GM and two Norinco 1911A1s. The Norks have been updated a little with better sights, Colt barrels, bushings and triggers, Wolf springs and some neat grips.

[Tn Jim]

Hickok, I use a similar boolit to yours. I use the Lee 230 TC bevel base. It is sized to .452 and lubed with 50/50 Alox/bees wax. I load it over 5.2 grains of W231 and it shoots better in my Springfield Ultra Compact than I can hold it. When I first started with it I was loading it at 5 grains and I got the little spot of leading you described. Bumping the powder charge to 5.2 grains fixed that.