452423 or heavier for my 45acp hog load?

[harley45]

I'm in a deep obsession with the 1911 style and in particular my 10mm, However 45 is easier to come by and in my quest for the one perfect all around gun I picked up 2 Lyman 452423 with the thought that I could build a hog load at about 900 FPS kinda like the Buffalo Bore loads. I'm wondering now though if I shouldn't have gotten a 255gr mold. Any thoughts?

Thanks

[bhn22]

I would think that 230 gr should do anything you need.

[Good Cheer]

Yeah, what he said is what I wuz thinking.
But then again, if the 452423 is hard cast and you get absolutely reliable functioning then why not?

[harley45]

Well I do have that new MP molds 230 grainer laying around.........

[Char-Gar]

A hog won't know the difference between the few extra grains of bullet weight. A velocity of 800 to 830 fps is more realistic and ample for the job. 4.5 to 4.8 grains of bullseye will get you there. I have quite a bit of experience with this bullet in the 1911 pistol.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I would think the 452423 would be vastly superior to the 452374 on a hog but I can't get the 452423 to chamber in any of my three Colt 1911's, two are Series 70's and one is a brand new gun. My 452423 drops a Linotype mix alloy at 245 grains. The 452423 works great in my .45 Colt SAA's and my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt.

The only way to deal with a deep obsession is to give into it. Some guys have reported their 452423 works in their 1911, Char-Gar here on the forum is one. You should buy, try, and report here on the forum. I had a hard time finding the 452423, I suggest you start shopping and keep an eye out for one.

[DougGuy]

I used a 255gr keith semi wadcutter for pins, if you simply must hunt hogs with a 1911, that boolit would work.

[harley45]

I hadn't given much thought to the 230 grainer but the more I think on it the MP Rcbs clone I just got my be a solution to. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a 200gr 10mm at 1000fps gives complete shoulder to shoulder penetration on hogs up to 300lbs so a 230 grainer at 850-900 I'm betting will to, plus gives me something to play with!

[Boogieman]

I have loaded lyman 454190 boolit sized .452 in a 1911 Colt WWII vintage, yes it was a Colt 1944,
used Unique , started with .455 Webley Auto data & worked up till it functioned. didn't have 45ACP dies sized cases in .234 die ,expanded & seated with .45 Colt. I was living in the backwoods on Pa. winters there can get boring. They spawn many " lets see what happens" ideas. This is a 250gr. boolit rn with a small flat that should feed good & go deep if pushed to max. It worked good in my Colt SAA.

[DLCTEX]

I have loaded 255 gr. Keith boolits in my 1911. I wound up using a 22 pound spring and ShokBuffs due to pounding on the internal parts. I decided they weren't worth the hassle, but I don't hunt hogs with it. I did size them .452.

[DLCTEX]

I have loaded 255 gr. Keith boolits in my 1911. I wound up using a 22 pound spring and ShokBuffs due to pounding on the internal parts. I decided they weren't worth the hassle, but I don't hunt hogs with it.I used SR 7625 powder.

[josper]

This thread is interesting but I tried to reference the mold 452423 and what I came up with is the 452424.Was the other a mistake or is there another mold??

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The 452424 is a different mould. 452423 is a Keith boolit designed for the .45 Auto Rim intended to be used in the revolver such as a 1917. Guys like me tried to make it work in the 1911 and failed. Others have had success so they write and I do not doubt their word.

[bhn22]

You can't seat it out to 1.250, if that's what you're doing. It should be seated so that just a sliver of the front driving band shows in front of the case. The actual thickness was described to me as being about the thickness of your fingernail. I've loaded a lot of SAECO 058s in 45 ACP, and that's where they needed to be seated too. If you go much longer than that, the front driving band can engage the rifling on some guns, and the slide may not go into battery.

In my earlier post, I was actually speaking out in favor of the 452423, not against it. I think it would be an excellent bullet for hunting with the 45 ACP. I'm not a fan of round nose bullets, unless there's no other choice.

[harley45]

The idea came to me when I was looking for a new gun, I dearly love the platform and own several high end 1911, but I'm thinking about a stainless Colt Series 70 with some VERY basic mods and instead of fancy ammo, simple basic cast loads.

[300savage]

i have shot a lot of lee 255grn rfn over 10.5 of 2400 in my g21 and mycolt 1911 with pure stock springs with zero issues.
you will read tons of regurgitated bs about 2400 in a 45 acp but i love it.
it will get you over 900fps and it hits hogs like a hammer. also very clean burning at those pressures and is bar none the most accurate loading i shoot.
a 255, actually cast from ww and water quenched it runs closer to 265 grains.
soft shooting hard hitting, cant think of a better load for hunting with a standard 45 acp case.

[harley45]

Thanks 300 I'll have to try that 2400 load, I'm planning on testing these in your state this fall!

[Char-Gar]

I have been shooting 452423 in the 1911 autopistol for over 50 years now and have killed several deer with the combination. I got started with this bullet out of necessity as it was the only mould I owned, not because it was the best available.

It will feed well is most 1911 pistols, but certainly not all. It has to be seated with just a smidge of the bullet sticking out of the case mouth and a good taper crimp applied. Even so the edge of the meplat will strike the feed ramp of the pistol.

There are other cast bullets for the 1911 pistol that will feed better and be just as effective on game. I am by no means suggesting the OP should not give 452423 a try, just don't get emotionally involved with it, if it doesn't work for you.

Below is a pick of how I load the bullet in the ACP case. These rounds happen to be in moon clips for use in my Smith and Wesson 625. With any fair hit, they will drive a bowling pin straight back off the table.

[Char-Gar]

i have shot a lot of lee 255grn rfn over 10.5 of 2400 in my g21 and mycolt 1911 with pure stock springs with zero issues.
you will read tons of regurgitated bs about 2400 in a 45 acp but i love it.
it will get you over 900fps and it hits hogs like a hammer. also very clean burning at those pressures and is bar none the most accurate loading i shoot.
a 255, actually cast from ww and water quenched it runs closer to 265 grains.
soft shooting hard hitting, cant think of a better load for hunting with a standard 45 acp case.

It is not nice of you to refer to those who feel your load is unwise and bordering on foolish as regurgitating BS. I am one of those folks and take exception to your characterization.

Shoot what you like and post what you like. I would not want to try and convince you otherwise. But do so with some respect for those who would disagree with you. Many of us have a very long and deep experience with the 1911 pistol and loading cast bullets for it, and we are not idiots who regurgitate BS.

[shoot-n-lead]

i have shot a lot of lee 255grn rfn over 10.5 of 2400 in my g21 and mycolt 1911 with pure stock springs with zero issues.


This bullet ( Lee 90358) with your choice of powder to get it up over 900fps is a real sledge hammer as stated...and functions great in the 1911 with factory springs.

[littlejack]

There's been quite a few threads on loading "heavies" in the 45 acp.
In the Speer #12 manual, there is a load for the Speer 260 grain jacketed. I believe if memory serves me, that Herco was the top speed powder for that bullet.
You can substitute the Lee 255 grain rfn for that jacketed bullet. There were speculations (before research was done) that the Lee boolit would take up too much case capacity and raise the pressures of the cartridge.
I called Speer, and got the dimensions of the there bullet. As it turned out, the Lee 255 grain rfn boolit was actually .080 shorter than the Speer jacketed, which made MORE case capacity when seated to the same depth.
So with that information, I proceeded to load some of the Lee boolit with the Herco powder. These loads worked out very well.
The boolit has enough round on the front, to give very good feeding in my Taurus PT1911. No FTF.
As for the heavier springs, there has also been a lot of discussion on their use. The biggest argument against them being that the heavier springs tend to cause the slide to slam things back into battery with too much force.
For myself, I use the factory spring, and have no issues. I do not shoot these heavy boolit loads that often, so there is no issues with them pounding the gun, on a steady basis. This is the load that I carry in the woods, when the need presents itself.
There is another boolit that will work very well. It is the Lee 452 truncated cone. It feeds very well, and has a decent meplat.
Another good thing about the Lee moulds, is their price. Also, their new line-up pin system is a great upgrade.
Just sayin.
Regards
Jack

[300savage]

It is not nice of you to refer to those who feel your load is unwise and bordering on foolish as regurgitating BS. I am one of those folks and take exception to your characterization.

Shoot what you like and post what you like. I would not want to try and convince you otherwise. But do so with some respect for those who would disagree with you. Many of us have a very long and deep experience with the 1911 pistol and loading cast bullets for it, and we are not idiots who regurgitate BS.


did i happen to infer in any way whatsoever that i was talking to you or about you ?
contrary to your own popular opinion of yourself the world of shooting does not revolve about you.
so pick your sucker out of the dirt and go on about your business and i will go about mine, deal ?

[Good Cheer]

Beyond being able to hit what you're shooting at, in loading the 1911 for hogs are you after any characteristics in performance besides total functioning reliability and best achievable penetration? The reason I ask is thinking that with .45 diameter no expansion is really needed, the cutting of a wound channel isn't so much a concern. Thinking that just getting in to do the damage is what counts. But then again, I don't know how big your hogs are!

[harley45]

I like shooting the 200lb and smaller ones they taste better plus I already have my trophy on the wall from a previous hunt.

[300savage]

goodcheer, not sure if your asking me or not but i do have my opinion if ya dont mind..
in killing hogs with a low"er" velocity round like a 45 acp penetration is of course of primary importance because i cant kill them if i cant get into the soft parts.
how much then do i want ? well i want to be able to shoot through the thickest, mud encrusted shoulder there is and still blow a quarter sized hole through both lungs and preferably out the other shoulder as well.
this load i like wont do that..
on a big tuff boar, talking 275 plus, it cant be counted on to always exit.
that is because i sacrifice a bit of penetration in favor of that big flat meplat in order to get the best balance i can between penetration and tissue damage.
the bullet the gives complete penetration leaves a pencil sized hole through tissue.
a .45 contrary to popular opinion does not punch a .45 hole in round nose form.
it simply does not have the velocity to make that work. instead it pushes a lot of tissue aside and leaves a sub caliber hole behind as is evidenced by examining lung tissue post mortem
a big flat meplat with a sharp defining edge crushes and cuts tissue and leaves a larger than caliber hole behind.
so its a balancing act between density, composition, of game. angle of shot path to reach vitals, and distance parameters to game to account for velocity loss.

so for me in a 45 acp, i try to keep my shots under 75 yards as that is about my personal limit to hit the vitals from a standing position.
i want a bullet with enough momentum to reach the vitals with even a shot up the tail pipe.
will completely penetrate all but the biggest boars with a broadside shot.
and even on them it will be found under the shield on the off side after doing massive damage to whatever bone structure or vitals it hits on its way.

[Char-Gar]

did i happen to infer in any way whatsoever that i was talking to you or about you ?
contrary to your own popular opinion of yourself the world of shooting does not revolve about you.
so pick your sucker out of the dirt and go on about your business and i will go about mine, deal ?

You can go about your business and I will go about mine, until you call the opinions of knowledgably and experience hand loaders of the 1911 regurgitated BS. At that time, you will hear from me again.

I don't expect you to change you mind or your manners, but inexperienced folks reading these threads need to know up from down on the matter. I also don't want folks to think that all people from Texas are coarse and ill mannered.

[Char-Gar]

Beyond being able to hit what you're shooting at, in loading the 1911 for hogs are you after any characteristics in performance besides total functioning reliability and best achievable penetration? The reason I ask is thinking that with .45 diameter no expansion is really needed, the cutting of a wound channel isn't so much a concern. Thinking that just getting in to do the damage is what counts. But then again, I don't know how big your hogs are!

Feral hogs are abundant down here in the Texas Brush Country and for the most part are a destructive nuisance. Lots of folks shoot them with lots of different handguns and rifles. Some of the mature males can get quite large and be somewhat dangerous is cornered. In cases like that, you can't have too much gun.

I know folks who shoot hogs with the 45 ACP round and they all use factory ammo. I also know folks who shoot them with 40 Smith and Wesson handguns. These folks seem to bring home the bacon and don't feel they are undergunned.

A good cast bullet with a large meplat works as good as any and better than some on game of any size. It all depends on where you hit the critter. Where you hit them trumps what you hit them with in most cases.

The 1911 pistol is a marvelous design. I have had dozens over the past 55 years and have three now. I have well over 1/4 million rounds of cast bullets through the various handguns. These pistols are a symphony of moving parts and each part moves in time with the others. To keep these things working, requires the right ammo that produces the correct recoil and momentum at the proper time.

A good expanding or cast bullet with a decent shoulder and meplat at standard velocity is plenty for any hog if you hit them in the right spot.

For the fellow wanting to cast bullets for shooting hogs with the 1911 pistol, I would suggest they take a look at the RCBS 230 grain Cowboy Bullet. Accurate moulds also offers some very good designs that will work very well and have a substantial meplat with a more feeding friendly nose than 452423.

[300savage]

my manners are perfectly adequate for the one i am addressing at the moment.
call me out whenever and however you choose i am not a hard man to find, and obviously not that far away
there is an old cowboy saying you are reminding me of
"if you could buy that fellow for what he is worth, and sell him for what he thinks he is worth,, well you could pocket a lot of coin "

[harley45]

I have an MP copy of that RCBS mold mentioned above, over the summer I'll do some testing and decide which guns to bring to Texas, the Wilson 10mm or the Colt or the Model 28...... Things are easier for my Son he only needs to bring his 1894 in 357. I have a 180 WFP load that so far has been deadly on deer.

[bobthenailer]

The lyman 452423 238 gr swc is IMO a better bullet in 45acp than the heavy 250 to 255 gr boolets . I had this mould and expermited with it for bowling pin shooting where it worked excellent.
With a COL @1.130 and almost 900 fps are obtainable . with 6.3 grs of unique @885 fps from a old lymans cast bullet book.

[Char-Gar]

The lyman 452423 238 gr swc is IMO a better bullet in 45acp than the heavy 250 to 255 gr boolets . I had this mould and expermited with it for bowling pin shooting where it worked excellent.
With a COL @1.130 and almost 900 fps are obtainable . with 6.3 grs of unique @885 fps from a old lymans cast bullet book.

I would agree, but I use 4.7/Bulleye. I prefer Bulleye to Unique in the 45 ACP round. This load does not hit 900 fps but does sneak up on 850 fps.

452423 will weight 230 grain in linotype, 238 grains in No. 2 and 242 grains in ACWW. This will vary a few grains as all alloys will vary a smidge.

In addition to possible feeding issues, this bullet does take up more space in the case encroaching on the powder and raising pressure. The heavier/longer 255 - 265 grain bullets only makes the problem worse, plus throw in the extra recoil and slide momentum with the accompanying issues.

I am of the opinion that a good SWC like Hensley and Gibbs or Lyman 452460 moving along at 875 fps is a do all target, field or defense round in the 1911 pistol chambered for 45 ACP round. I have not shot a hog with this load, but would not think twice about doing so. I have shot a dozen or so Javelina with this load and it worked right well.

I do know a fellow that had a deer lease down here and found where the hogs were going under the fence. He salted the area with corn and hid in the bush with a long Russian Mosin with the bayonet attached. He thought he would do a little pig sticking. The charged a large boar with bayonet fixed and the rodeo started. He didn't have a round in the chamber and could not let go of the rifle with both hands to work the bolt. That pig threw him all over the brush until he shook free of the blade and egressed the area.

There are some people who should not have access to matches or firearms.

[harley45]

Between my Dad Son and I we have killed half a dozen hogs all with our 10mm and 200 WFPs going about 1000FPS. Based on that I see some real merit in Char-Gar 200 grain load. I'm thinking that lpad will go clear thru most hogs side to side, and at a recoil level almost anyone could handle. Maybe I'll rethink the whole heavyweight idea.............

[300savage]

a 200 grn 10mm has great sectional density and momentum, a 200 grn 45 cal not so much.
not saying it wont get the job done because it can, but it is not quite as good a round as a Double Tap 40s&w and it leaves a lot on the table where the 45 acp is concerned.
a rounds effectiveness on 40 pound javelinas tells a person very little about how it will perform on a 200 plus pound boar hog.
as far as easy to shoot goes, i can tell you for a fact that even the 275 grn wfn from hunters supply is a very soft shooting load at around 900 fps and is really hard to stop.
it is just a little too much of a good thing though i feel and not needed.
if i had a good source of 230 grn hard cast i liked better than the big flat lee 255 grainers i believe i could be happy with that going about 1050 on come as they will hogs. smaller pigs are not difficult to dispatch, a 22 mag will kill up to about 75 pound sows and young boars quite well with their lighter bones and essentially no shield, but big tuff old boars take a lot of killing.
i like to break them up as much as possible if i can, as i have seen first hand too many times the trouble that a wounded hog can cause. and make no mistake a 250 to 300 pound lean scarred old south texas brush boar is a big ,rangey ,tuff,, hard to kill bad attitude motor scooter .
they are not corn fed pigs on somebodies high fence hunting operation.
they are free ranging mud covered stinking bad *** fighting for a living hogs. and while not hard to kill if done right, and for the most part your safe as long as you stay in the open , if you go into the brush after one you failed to knock down you just might be the one getting hunted. you may read more regurgitated bs about how you didnt really get charged, they were just trying to get away and you were in the trail..
BS! you make one of these olds boys bleed and then go in after him with that foolish notion and one day you will have one camped on you wearing your silly self out. "meaning you, me, or anyone silly enough to not respect and appreciate their attitude about getting shot.. but in my opinion the danger is about the only thing about a hog that makes them worth going in after because otherwise they are just stinking pests"

so in my book there is no such thing as overkill and a soft shooting 45 auto with big flat heavy bullets at medium velocities brings a lot of thump to the game.
not as much as my old three screw 41 mag however but a lot easier packing on a daily basis when you live and work outside in pig country.
i have no idea how many i have killed as i stopped counting long ago, but darn sure enough to determine what i think works best for me.
good luck with the light bullets, shoot straight and stay in the open would be my best advice, but your a grown man iam sure you will figure it out.

[frank505]

If you put a small radius firing pin stop, a twenty five pound mainspring and an eighteen pound recoil spring in your 1911, it can then shoot some heavy loads. I use seven grains of Unique with the Saeco 058 for about a thousand fps and the NOE 230 hollow point for about 950. Also the 230 truncated version of Coopers bullet at 975. These are from a four inch aluminum frame Sig that has now shot 1800 rounds of these loads. My steel frame five inch guns have had the same mods and shoot these loads about fifty feet faster.
Having used the 1911 on hogs from Georgia, Florida and Texas I can say it works and works better with good bullet design like the Keith or something else with a decent size meplat. So does the 44 magnum and heavy loads in the 45 Colt and they work better than the 45 ACP. Never tried any other catridges in short guns. The 505 Gibbs works best of all though..................

[harley45]

Frank, can you give more details on the HP use in hogs, I have a similar mold so alloy type weight of hogs shot anything you have the time to share would be appreciated.
Thanks

[frank505]

Its the NOE 45/230 RG4. Has a pretty good flat, so far its killed two hogs from Bubbas 4506. Ive only wacked two coons with it, but more to come. All exited, kinda like this bullet. the solid version weighs about 250 and I load it with 6.5 of Unique for 900 in the four inch Sig.

[Good Cheer]

goodcheer, not sure if your asking me or not but i do have my opinion if ya dont mind..
in killing hogs with a low"er" velocity round like a 45 acp penetration is of course of primary importance because i cant kill them if i cant get into the soft parts.
how much then do i want ? well i want to be able to shoot through the thickest, mud encrusted shoulder there is and still blow a quarter sized hole through both lungs and preferably out the other shoulder as well.
this load i like wont do that..
on a big tuff boar, talking 275 plus, it cant be counted on to always exit.
that is because i sacrifice a bit of penetration in favor of that big flat meplat in order to get the best balance i can between penetration and tissue damage.
the bullet the gives complete penetration leaves a pencil sized hole through tissue.
a .45 contrary to popular opinion does not punch a .45 hole in round nose form.
it simply does not have the velocity to make that work. instead it pushes a lot of tissue aside and leaves a sub caliber hole behind as is evidenced by examining lung tissue post mortem
a big flat meplat with a sharp defining edge crushes and cuts tissue and leaves a larger than caliber hole behind.
so its a balancing act between density, composition, of game. angle of shot path to reach vitals, and distance parameters to game to account for velocity loss.

so for me in a 45 acp, i try to keep my shots under 75 yards as that is about my personal limit to hit the vitals from a standing position.
i want a bullet with enough momentum to reach the vitals with even a shot up the tail pipe.
will completely penetrate all but the biggest boars with a broadside shot.
and even on them it will be found under the shield on the off side after doing massive damage to whatever bone structure or vitals it hits on its way.

'Tweren't towards any one person. What I was thinking about is that the damage created by the passage of a .45 diameter boolit is adequate regardless of nose configuration. As if to say that if a .357 goes all the way through then that's pretty good. If a .45 goes all the way through it's mo' betta.

[Hickok]

9488194882Just a picture of boolits and meplates. Speer .452 250 SWC, Lee TL 452-230 TC, and Lee 452-255 RF.
Casting the Lee TL 230 TC (boolit in middle) with 50/50 ww/pb my bullets weigh 238 gr.

[300savage]

'Tweren't towards any one person. What I was thinking about is that the damage created by the passage of a .45 diameter boolit is adequate regardless of nose configuration. As if to say that if a .357 goes all the way through then that's pretty good. If a .45 goes all the way through it's mo' betta.
goodcheer i wish that our little buddy daniel could post the picture of the bottom of his foot since i dont have any photos of a hogs lungs with a 45 cal rn with a small meplat through them.
the exit wound in the bottom of his foot is about pencil size, just almost exactly what i have seen in lung tissue.
now if you hit the heart or the liver or the kidneys the damage can be dramatic as those organs tend to shatter from impact.
the sharp shoulders of a big meplat crush and cut tissue while a round nose with even a small meplat like a cowboy load such as daniel shot his foot with pushes through like a blunt rod.
they are great for penetration and breaking bones, and the secondary wounding from bone shards can be effective at causing damage to nearby organs or arteries.
but in the chance you dont hit a major bone they pretty much act like a fmj.
as an extreme example i have shot many jackrabbits with 45 hardball and been amazed to watch one shot through the lungs go back to nibbling grass until they started staggering and fell over some seconds later.
where a soft lead solid 22 lr will most often make an audible thud and said jack jumps in the air and flops on its side dead.
shoot one though with a big flat meplat 45 and it smacks them down hard.
i cant tell you how thankful i am that daniel loaded the wrong bullets for hogs that day, turns out they were perfect for shooting your own foot..

[GLL]

Just a reference photo of the entire bullet.
I load it in .45 Auto-Rim for revolvers so cannot add to this discussion !
I have never shot a hog but did get chased one time by an irate one on Santa Cruz Island ! :) :)

454423
http://www.fototime.com/EC1743E1362BCF4/medium800.jpg
Cast 50/50 COWW/Pb + 2% Sn

Jerry

[300savage]

well i would say if you can get that bullet trundeling along at anything over about 850 you will be very well armed indeed. bet u would have liked it that day on santa cruz..

[Good Cheer]

goodcheer, not sure if your asking me or not but i do have my opinion if ya dont mind..
in killing hogs with a low"er" velocity round like a 45 acp penetration is of course of primary importance because i cant kill them if i cant get into the soft parts.
how much then do i want ? well i want to be able to shoot through the thickest, mud encrusted shoulder there is and still blow a quarter sized hole through both lungs and preferably out the other shoulder as well.
this load i like wont do that..
on a big tuff boar, talking 275 plus, it cant be counted on to always exit.
that is because i sacrifice a bit of penetration in favor of that big flat meplat in order to get the best balance i can between penetration and tissue damage.
the bullet the gives complete penetration leaves a pencil sized hole through tissue.
a .45 contrary to popular opinion does not punch a .45 hole in round nose form.
it simply does not have the velocity to make that work. instead it pushes a lot of tissue aside and leaves a sub caliber hole behind as is evidenced by examining lung tissue post mortem
a big flat meplat with a sharp defining edge crushes and cuts tissue and leaves a larger than caliber hole behind.
so its a balancing act between density, composition, of game. angle of shot path to reach vitals, and distance parameters to game to account for velocity loss.

so for me in a 45 acp, i try to keep my shots under 75 yards as that is about my personal limit to hit the vitals from a standing position.
i want a bullet with enough momentum to reach the vitals with even a shot up the tail pipe.
will completely penetrate all but the biggest boars with a broadside shot.
and even on them it will be found under the shield on the off side after doing massive damage to whatever bone structure or vitals it hits on its way.

Started hunting with cast bullets in the '70's. I know about flat noses, big shoulders, soft, hard and what cast bullet wound channels at different velocities look like. What I'm trying to convey is that with .45 diameter don't worry about trying to maximize the would channel that you could achieve. I'd just worry about getting it to where it needs to get to.

[300savage]

well thats all good yet to say the wound channel does not matter is rather confusing.
a hardball 45 through the vitals in my experiance produces a far different result than does a wfn.
a solid rn does not kill anywhere near as effectively as a wfn through the same vital hit.
however i do agree with you on one thing and that is regardless of type of bullet used it must hit the vitals or cns.

[harley45]

That is my target velocity 850

[Good Cheer]

well thats all good yet to say the wound channel does not matter is rather confusing.
a hardball 45 through the vitals in my experiance produces a far different result than does a wfn.
a solid rn does not kill anywhere near as effectively as a wfn through the same vital hit.
however i do agree with you on one thing and that is regardless of type of bullet used it must hit the vitals or cns.

That's not what I said. (heavy sigh) Good night.

[300savage]

no need for such drama..
according to what i understood you to write you are under the misconception that simply because a person is shooting a 45 cal they dont need to worry about what kind of wound channel they are creating. nothing could be farther from the truth unfortunately.
if i have misread then i apologize.

[harley45]

Well mods may as well close this one nothing more is goanna be learned here. Been a member of this board since the old Aimoo days and it's sad to see what it has become

[ramhunter]

I got some really good info from this thread, so how about we keep on topic and knock off the drama ??

ramhunter

[Airman Basic]

I got some really good info from this thread, so how about we keep on topic and knock off the drama ??

ramhunter
Agreed. Used to shoot a 250 grain Keith in a Series 70 Gold Cup, in the 1970s, of course. Used a big load of Blue Dot, a powder often neglected in 45ACP, IMO. No hogs back then, but sure did the job on deer. Still got the gun and mold, neither self-destructed, as my buds from the time said it would. Fun stuff.

[harley45]

I have about three pounds of Blue Dot and a few load ideas to, I have three bullets I'll be testing this spring for the hunt in the fall, the 452423 my MP molds 45-230 RCBS HP and then same mold in the solid version. I'm thinking one of the solids will goto TX with me

[ramhunter]

Just loaded up some #452423 boolets. sized .452, loaded in hornady +p 45 acp cases with 5.5gr unique. its a bit cold up here but I might get out and try a few tomorrow. oh yeah 249grs with my wheel weights.

ramhunter

[johniv]

FWIW I have loaded the 452423 with 6.0 gr. of unique at an oal of 1.200 " for a clocked 860 fps . feeds well in all my 1911's thou one series 70 dosent like the load. Accuracy was good , YMMV

[harley45]

I've got some cast but at 14 degrees here I'll wait to try them

[johniv]

It's never cold{rains,snows ,etc} on a pistol range...

[Changeling]

It's never cold{rains,snows ,etc} on a pistol range...

Really, tell that to my Tush, this has been one of the coldest/bitterest winters I have ever experienced in Frederick Maryland!!

I've been thinking about selling and moving somewhere it's warm and gun friendly.

[johniv]

Sorry to rattle your chain but my local range is closed "due to cold weather" I have been sneaking out to my alternate range to get some trigger time. I view shooting as a year round pastime , I have conducted matches when the weather was neg 15 (early '80's in VA. and yup some people showed up to shoot) I could use some warmer weather too, but till then dont let it stop ya.

[frank505]

I was testing a bullet last Thursday at minus eight. Even got out of the pickup so I didnt coat the mirror and door post with lube and powder residue. Six shots and jump back in with heater full blast. The bullet, a Magma 300 grain rifle bullet will shoot quite well to 226 yards. This in my old 45 Colt with 32 twist barrel.
Dress warm and enjoy what we do despite the weather.

[harley45]

My range is also closed due to snow can''t get to it!

[Stuckcase]

One of the greatest bullet designs ever! I taper crimp it just behind the front driving bands leading edge. Loaded very hot with IMR 800x at 8.5 gr with a CCI LP primer. I coat with Eastwood’s light Ford Blue and also lube in a Lyman 450 sizer at .452” The lube is a mix of 50/50 Crisco and toilet bowl wax ring. It is an absolute hammer. The Kimber is outfitted with a 20lb spring and extra power mainspring. This pistol eats everything, after I tuned the extractor.

[gwpercle]

I would think that 230 gr should do anything you need.

Agree !
In a 1911 platform driving that 238 grain boolit to 900 fps is going to be a good compromise of weight and velocity .
If you were shooting a 45 acp revolver then possibly the heavier boolit might be useful but with the 1911 452423 with it's flat nose should be be a good choice ....make sure they feed well !
Gary

[smithnframe]

Good luck getting it to feed!

[USSR]

Feeds fine in my Colt Gold Cup.

Don

[DougGuy]

Good luck getting it to feed!

They are quite easy to get to feed once the barrel has enough freebore, and that freebore is of sufficient diameter.

[sixshot]

I have always liked the Keith #452423 bullet in my 625, my Ruger single action custom & to a smaller degree my 1011's. Many, many people under estimate the killing power of a good 1911 with good bullets, fatal mistake!
I also shoot a Miha #452374 HP & if you look close the HP is shallow at the bottom which delays expansion & allows the bullet to work very well on game. It feeds well & kills well, whether in a 1911 or a Ruger or Smith 45.
When char-gar tells you something it comes from first hand experience, best to listen.

Dick

[megasupermagnum]

I realize this is on old thread, but that's an awful lot of talk for something that can be found in a reloading manual. Alliant removed most of their data, but they used to list a 260 grain bullet with 8.5 gr bluedot for a max load. That was a standard pressure load, I've never seen +P data for the heavier bullets. +P data is hard to come by regardless.

The Lee 255 gr SWC with 8.5 gr Bluedot at 1.215" OAL does 850 fps in my P220. I see no reason to send a solid cast bullet any faster, penetration is extreme, matches anything a 10mm auto can do.

[Wayne Dobbs]

So, to give proper respect and honor to a true Texas gentleman on his birthday, I'd like to post something Charles Graff wrote a ways back on the 452423 boolit:

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

Happy Birthday, brother Charles!

[DougGuy]

So, to give proper respect and honor to a true Texas gentleman on his birthday, I'd like to post something Charles Graff wrote a ways back on the 452423 boolit:

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

Happy Birthday, brother Charles!

Something else Charles Graff wrote a while back, pertinent to the exact topic of the thread. As I stated above, it is quite easy to get the 452423 to feed if the barrel is sufficiently throated:


I sent DougGuy a Colt 45 Auto barrel for his full treatment of throating, muzzle crowning and feed ramp polish. It came back to me with a very quick turn around.

I loaded up some 45 ACP ammo with my old favorite Lyman 452423 over 4.5/Bullsye. However this time I seated the bullet out as far as it would go and still feed through the magazine. The bullet so loaded would still "plunk" in the barrel just fine.

With 8 magazines loaded with this stuff, I headed for our range on the Rio Grande River hard up against the Republic of Mexico. Tacking up a few targets and thinking "Remember the Alamo", I let fly. All eight mags were empties in jig time with good accuracy and nary a bobble. I reloaded the mags and did it again. Still there were no jams, misfeeds or any kind of problems. That is 112 rounds downrange with zero stoppages. That is better than I could do with the bullet seated down for the past 55 years. The throat enable a longer round, which was a whole new ball game. Here is a pic of the bullet loaded the old way and another the new way. Another pic of the Colt that flung them is also included.

I am very pleased with the turn around time, the quality of the work and the results on the range. Thanks DougGuy.

Charles Graff

Charles posted these two images with the above post:

264922 264923

It's obvious that there are many years between the post Charles wrote which Wayne Dobbs referenced, and the post I referenced which is a bit over 3 years ago. As Bob Dylan would say, the times they are a changin'.

Until the advent of the internet and boards like this one, barrel throating was pretty much a black art, only subscribed to by a few smiths who knew what the deal was, but this custom was not shared and many wouldn't publish their trade secrets given the chance. Now that we have global communication at the speed of light, and a Google search could find just about anything you can type in the search box, it's easy to see how important fitment really is, and how every autopistol from the old warhorse itself right to the newest poly framed krunchentickers benefit from having a proper sized throat in the barrel.

On the left, what you get from almost all recent manufacturer's barrels, on the right is what you NEED for shooting cast boolits, especially the 452423.

264924

In addition to the above discussion, let me say that years ago I used to compete in bowling pin matches using a 14rd Para Ordnance framed 1911 with an old WWII era Remington Rand upper, I had this magnaported and my load of choice was the Keith type LSWC, basically either a 452423 or a 454423 I don't recall, over a very stout charge of 700x. This load gripped the pins and forcefully flung them several feet behind the table, often lifting them 2 or more feet into the air, recoil was stiff and it was hard to bring the sights back on target for following shots.

I would venture to say that this load, out of a 1911 would be about as deadly on hogs as one could possibly come up with.

[Jtarm]

FWIW, I’m experimenting with hog loads in a 625 using the Montana Bullet Works LBT 250 OGW. Want to see how it works before ordering a mold.

So far the leading candidate is 6.8 grains of Power Pistol, which gives just under 900 FPS and lighter recoil than any factory ball I’ve tried.

IDK if it’s me or the gun, but shooting 6 shot groups at 25 yards, I’ll get three almost in the same hole and the other three open the group to about 2.5”. It’s been to Doug for throat reaming and the MBW boolits fit just right.

By contrast by GP100 MC 10mm doesn’t shoot for squat with the LBT 200 WFN coated. These are coated from MBW #2 alloy and sized .402. The boolits slip more easily than I’d like. Pushed by Universal or PP, theyre all over the paper. It prints under 2” at 25 with the Sig Elite 180 TC. This gun might be going on the block.

[megasupermagnum]

I have not put much work into my own heavy bullet 45 loads, but mine do not shoot much better. Usually 4" to 4 1/2" at 50 yards is how the Lee 255 gr with Bluedot shoots for me. But again, I did not work to improve accuracy, this load meets my needs, so I left it.

That's very strange your 10mm wont shoot the 200 gr WFN well. The 10mm, 200 grain bullet, and bluedot go together like salt and pepper. It could be your gun doesn't like that particular bullet.

[alphapredator]

This bullet ( Lee 90358) with your choice of powder to get it up over 900fps is a real sledge hammer as stated...and functions great in the 1911 with factory springs.

25yrs ago, I took one of Veral Smiths 325 gr lfn boolits, cut it down to the first grease groove, and used the crimp groove for the lube groove, it shot so well, I had him make me a 4 cavity, 230 gr lfn mold, now it's his no 1 selling 45 acp mold!

[Jtarm]

I have not put much work into my own heavy bullet 45 loads, but mine do not shoot much better. Usually 4" to 4 1/2" at 50 yards is how the Lee 255 gr with Bluedot shoots for me. But again, I did not work to improve accuracy, this load meets my needs, so I left it.

That's very strange your 10mm wont shoot the 200 gr WFN well. The 10mm, 200 grain bullet, and bluedot go together like salt and pepper. It could be your gun doesn't like that particular bullet.

I swear I have an old almost-full can of Hercules BD around here somewhere. We did a remodel last year so everything got moved out & back in.

[megasupermagnum]

I swear I have an old almost-full can of Hercules BD around here somewhere. We did a remodel last year so everything got moved out & back in.

Hercules and Alliant Bluedot are exactly the same, so that would work well. 800x would be another good choice.