222 or 223?

[338RemUltraMag]

Ok, I am going to place a new cz 527 on order at the lgs, I really am leaning towards the 222 Remington because of the long neck and 1-14 twist barrel. BUT the 223 is a 1-12 and has the availability of the varmint version with a heavy barrel.

The main thing I will shoot is cast, so from a purely cast boolit standpoint which would you pick up? What kind of accuracy and velocity can be expected with either cartridge?

[Hickory]

Not much difference in the two except;
The 222 will "tend" to be more accurate.
The 223 will have more velocity.

For me, if the 223 did not exist I would long after no other cartridge except the 222.
But 223 brass is cheaper and easy to find. The 222 is a great cartridge that is on it's way to becoming obsolete.

I might lean towards the 222 for cast.

[runfiverun]

I'd lean towards the 222 purely for a cast shooter.
and towards the 223 for component [brass] availability.
the rest is pretty much a wash..

[338RemUltraMag]

So long as I can find 223 brass I can make 222 brass and the jaxeted loads are within 100 fps.

As a cast boolit gun I was not sure which would tend to be better, both twists are good for cast, it really comes down to cartridge design. Since I have zero experience shooting cast 22's I figured I would ask the experts.

[GabbyM]

Don't be digging a grave for the triple deuce anytime soon.

Well a couple weeks ago I went with the 222. Bit cold to get out so only shot it once. 60 grain cast over 11.9 grains 2400. Should be around 2350 fps. Clover leaf groups at forty paces from sitting in a lawn chair using the iron sights on the LUX. So far I like it.

Only thing I don't like about the CZ-527 is the magazine type loading. You have to remove the mag, push in a round, insert mag then chamber. That would be cumbersome on a heavy varmint rifle shooting off supports. I run my Rem M700 VLS with a single shot follower in the mag so I can just drop one in and close bolt. Not much sense anyway to have a lightweight 527 action then mount a heavy barrel. Magazine is also short and won't take much over SAMI length ammo. Long VLD like a Blitz King may not fit loaded to touch rifling. This is a true Mauser claw and there is no placing a round in chamber then closing bolt.

222 brass isn't to difficult to form from 223. I did spend $75 on a power trimmer tool that runs in a drill. Since the reform leaves about 1/16 inch of length to trim. Had to anneal the once fired LC brass before and after. That's a pain. Powder Valley had Lapua for $50 for 100 pieces. So I bought one box of that. In part for a control.

What surprised me is when I set off some J bullet loads and didn't feel any recoil. 50 grain bullet at a booked 3000 fps over 4198. You can get 3200 fps with 21 grains. With some new powder and the 50 you can run 2300 fps. That's still running at the 222's average book listed loads of 45000CUP. Load the 222 up to same pressure as a max load 223 and velocity difference with light bullets is not much. Little reason to push a light 6 1/4 pound walk about gun though. I purchased this rifle for a cast bullet shooter and to have a bolt gun under eight pounds. I may not even scope it. It is light and handy. So far flawlessly feeds using the typical firm action manipulation as you would on a full sized M98. Works slow to but to eject you have the fixed ejector as I do on my Ruger M77 and Win 70. So its not an odd action for me to work. So far I like it a lot. With all of one quick shooting session. General consensus is you get 200 fps more velocity with cast using a 14 twist over the 12 twist. Plus you don't use much more powder as the smaller 222 case just gives it to you with the same charge weight. I'll be casting up some boolits using copper enriched alloy and going for 2,600 fps with this little terror. This is a fun little rifle.

[338RemUltraMag]

Excellent post, I have a CZ 452, 527, and 550 Magnum chamberings are 22 lr, 7.62x39, 416 Rigby I love my CZ's so the rifle will not be new to me but the chamber will be. Thanks!

[Bullshop Junior]

I would get the 222. In my experiance the 1/14 twist works better with cast, and when you wear out the throat, tou can ream it out to 223 :mrgreen:

[Larry Gibson]

I really am leaning towards the 222 Remington because of the long neck and 1-14 twist barrel.

You are leaning in the right direction. The 222 rem with 14" twist is the better choice for cast bullets. Start looking for a 225462 mould.

Larry Gibson

[Jack Stanley]

I'm with Gabby on everything he posted except my rifle will accept a round dropped into the chamber . For whatever rewason this extractor will go over a round not coming out of the magazine . I typically do load the magazine though because I'm trying to find a load for field use .

My rifle is a left handed LUX and it's a two two three , the short neck is a bit of a pain . But then the rifling is real close and I have to seat cast bullets rather deep . This is the case with my 225462 and the RCBS 2255FN . I have some galery loads using the RCBS 2255SP and those are more normal and have an overall length you would expect .

Accuracy is like Gabby says , when the light is right my old eyes can do rather well with the sights the LUX provides . I intend to keep it like it is and load it everything from 22LR levels up to probably Hornet territory . I had a bunch of fifty-five grain FMJBT bullets that got loaded with ten point six of Blue Dot . I don't know the velocity but they are very accurate ... when my eyes work right . Eleven grains of Blue Dot works well with a soft point bullet of the same weight , Winchester brand with cannalure if you want to try it . I'm working with some Speer fifty grain "TNT" bullets right now . I'm still unsure which way to go with these but I'm thinking into the Hornet velocity area .

When I get done fooling with the jacketed stuff and have a couple cans loaded for future use . I intend to clean the oil off the brand new RCBS 2255SP I just bought from Midway . One of the members here loaned me his to get started ( Thanks again! ) and this design allows the gas check at the base of the neck and keeps the lube covered by the neck . I'm thinking with this bullet I should be able to replicate the twenty-two magnum pretty easy .

If there is a downside to the LUX model rifle it is the "fixed" sight . The rear is drift adjustable for windage so you can fix that if you need to . The front sight on mine came with a bead that is fine if you like that style and you like the way the factory sights the rifle . Their idea is cover the target with the bead ... fine for up close but not so on small critters at a hundred plus yards . They do sell front sights of different heights and I bought five sights shorter than the one that came with my rifle . The original was a number six and I'm finding I like the number four much better for the way I use the sight and the reduced loads I use . I think if I decide to make 22LR level loads I am going to have to reshape the number one front sight . My gallery loads still print low with that one but that work is down the road a ways . Should you decide to buy a rifle that uses a scope you will likely avoid all this but may have to be a bit more choosey on what mounts and scope you want . Some people complain of bolt handle clearance .

Jack

[338RemUltraMag]

What kind of barrel life will the 222 see with 55 gr cast and a velocity of 2300-2400 fps? I assume about 10,000 rounds?

[white eagle]

I can't believe how many times I have heard this or that cartridge is obsolete or dying out
they (vague?)said the 358 win was dying or obsolete..... well anyway my choice mirrors the others that say the triple deuce if not for nostalgic reasons alone plus there has to be a reason that the 222 rem wins so many benchrest or has won matches.I have one and its easy to load for not that the 223 isn't but the 223 don't have the track record the 222 does..my vote anaway

[DLCTEX]

222 gets my vote. I have rifles in both 223 and 222 and find the 222 gets me better accuracy easily.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Two of my three 222/223 527's accept and work perfectly single loading simply by dropping a round on the mag follower and closing the bolt. One required a small bit of stoning on the claw to fall in line with its brothers.

This is a common gunsmithing task covered in a number of older smithing books as Mauser type actions have been coming in for a hundred + years. Do a search for this.

The second thing is that with the fantastic selection of jacketed bullets and the vast array of modern powders, and in consideration that both calibers of 527 rifles will take the same pressures, one can get equally great game results, accuracy results, and comparative results, virtually the same in either caliber.

BTW, downloading with green dot will let you shoot jacketed at the 22 Mag level with Mag throw weights and give superior accuracy to the Mag.

I'm currently working on using cast for 22 subsonic/hunting application in both calibers, with good progress.

There is a lot of baloney about "you can't shoot this or that in the 12 inch twist 223, (or similar in the 14 inch twist 222). Now it may be that the goobermint could not get acceptable results in the 5,56 with 62 grain FMJBTs in their rifle applications with that 12 inch twist, so I will tell you that most commercial 222/223 rifles in 1/12, and 1/14 will shoot the 64 grain Winchester power points and the 70 grainSpeer flat bases very nicely. These two have long been the jacketed deer bullets for the smaller centerfire 22s. It is often bullet length, not weight that is the stability problem.

One more item is important. It is still somewhat easy to get a thousand round case lot of once fired military cases at reasonable prices. It's work and you need tooling, but you can make these cases into first class specimens for reloading, especially if converting to 222.

BvT

[Hickory]

What kind of barrel life will the 222 see with 55 gr cast and a velocity of 2300-2400 fps? I assume about 10,000 rounds?

You can get 10,000 rounds with regular jacketed ammo shooting prairie dogs with a 222.
Shooting cast at 2200-2400 fps in a 222, in my estimation will get you 15,000-18,000 rounds of accurate barrel life.

[GabbyM]

Thanks fellows for the tips on single loading the 527. I didn’t know what they were supposed to do. When I tried it I’d not shot or cleaned the rifle yet. Just now went and tried an empty case and bolt closed with just normal pressure. That’s after shooting then a good cleaning with Ed’s Red. Before it stopped dead solid against the case. So yeee--haaa. Will be generally loading them up from the magazine however. Buddy of mine and myself had identical Ruger M-77 VT in 243. Same year both rifles had the chambers worn out lopsided away from the extractor. From the claw pushing the case over to that side. About 700 rounds into 900 round barrel life. On the neck sized cases we had to eyeball them to spot the fat side and chamber them timed to get the bolts closed. That was the third year for them shooting prairie dogs in South Dakota. Where the dust is white like cement and gets into everything. Plus the Ruger stainless barrels are soft as hardwood. That barrels bore gave completely out before the weekend was over. I have replaced it with an ER Shaw in CM steel and don’t worry much about it but generally push rounds down in mag. It feeds like butter so no big deal. Dust was the big killer.

[waco]

My buddy has one in. 222 and loves it. My 527 is a .221

[Harter66]

I'm trying to get my brass empty that came w/the ol' Savage 222 I like it alot and tops my list of guns I haven't had to mess w/to make it shoot.

[jimb16]

I shoot a rem 700BDL in 222. cast gives me minute of fox squirrel at 100 yards. I also have a .223. I'll take the .222 for cast every time.

[quilbilly]

I shoot a rem 700BDL in 222. cast gives me minute of fox squirrel at 100 yards. I also have a .223. I'll take the .222 for cast every time. Ditto's. It took me two sessions to get a 222 to shoot cast with fine accuracy but I have been working getting a 223 to do the same with cast for almost two years and it is still a work in progress. If you want to shoot cast, choose the 222. With jacketed, there isn't enough difference to matter much but pick the 223 just because the brass is easier to get.

[338RemUltraMag]

Thanks guys! I just got a line on a cz 222, I may be listing up my Rossi 454 ...

[GabbyM]

Here is how I ended up re forming 5.56mm to 222. First found this batch of about 350 All same lot Fed LC brass a couple nice young fellows gave me after they’d swept it up at the range In Effingham.

Tumble clean in corn cob media.
Anneal cases.
Lube with Dillon spray case lube. Wipe shoulder off with rag to prevent lube dents. That’s the big trick.
Turn FL 222 die out 1 ½ turns. Stroke press then turn die in 3/4 turn and repeat until fully sized. This done with de caper removed.
Use a WFT drill powered trimmer to cut off 1/16th inch excess neck. $70 at Sinclair. Little Crow Gun Works Worlds Finest Trimmer.
Anneal cases again.
Expand necks with Lyman M die.
Decap with Lee universal decap die.
Uniform flash holes.
Uniform primer pockets.
Chamfer pocket crimp out with Hornady reamer.
Tumble clean.
Finally a week later of all my spare time I’ve about 350 cases ready.

Most of that work you have to do to any mil surplus brass to get 223 out of.
The other 100 cases I have were real hard. Went onto Powder Valley online catalog. Clicked on Lapua 222 brass. Couple mouse clicks later and $50 they were at my door in three days. When brass is available you can buy 500 Remington’s for $155.

Neck wall thickness is a little thicker at the bottom where neck was formed from shoulder brass. But not so much there still isn’t plenty of room in my CZ even with a .225” boolet seated. About a fat .001” diameter.

[Teddy (punchie)]

So long as I can find 223 brass I can make 222 brass and the jaxeted loads are within 100 fps.

As a cast boolit gun I was not sure which would tend to be better, both twists are good for cast, it really comes down to cartridge design. Since I have zero experience shooting cast 22's I figured I would ask the experts.

We have some brass we can share with you. Let me know when and I'll dig it out. 100 any way. Think we have 500-1000 pieces maybe more. May need one of those molds in future, LOL. By way they look great.

[338RemUltraMag]

Thanks Teddy! Where are you at in PA? I am over next to Bedford.

[DLCTEX]

I have bought brass through our Swapping&Selling section and through lgs to the point that I am well fixed for the forseeable future. Maybe someday I will retire and shoot more.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Beaver County
Thanks Teddy! Where are you at in PA? I am over next to Bedford.

[Bad Water Bill]

Several years ago I picked up a new Savage 223 bbl.

Took it over to my trusty gunsmith (Harry Mc Gowen) and asked what cartridge.

Well I have over 10Kthru my 222 with plenty of life in her.

Now the bbl is a 222 but in a 1/9 twist.

Put PB in there and watch them turn into a cloud of dust about 50' from the bbl.

Put a raincoat on them and they shoot great. Just cost a lot more to shoot.

[williamwaco]

What kind of barrel life will the 222 see with 55 gr cast and a velocity of 2300-2400 fps? I assume about 10,000 rounds?

I don't think that is even close. Unless you mix sand in your bullet lube, I would expect the locking lugs to fall off before the barrel wears out.

[GabbyM]

Here that bill. My Rem 700 VLS in 223. Favorite all time prairie dog shooter.
Only has between three and four thousand rounds down the tube. Hard work in fast fire mode though. After the last PD shooting trip several years ago. Bullet seat depth bumped out .030” after under 500 rounds of rapid fire shooting.
Barrel has slowed down too. Which usually telegraphs a total wash soon to come. I’ll be using this new cast bullet shooter 222 Rem with 24 inch barrel for some velocity test with 50 and 53 grain bullets. Just for giggles because it is in the books. Within a year or two I’ll make a decision to re barrel the M700 VLS in 223 or 222. It will be a 14 twist either way. I have a ten pound AR with 9 twist barrel for the heavies. Then a pair of 243 AI varmint rifles for when a 50 grain 22 isn’t enough gun. But those are usually like rolling out a Beach King Air to make a flight the Cessna 152 would do.

Another option for my 700 VLS is to bump up to a 222 Rem Magnum.

[338RemUltraMag]

Looks like I am buying a CZ from a member here, I cant wait to burn up some cast through her! The 454 is probably sold but I do have a 336 jm 30-30 up too.

[GabbyM]

I don't think that is even close. Unless you mix sand in your bullet lube, I would expect the locking lugs to fall off before the barrel wears out.

Hope you're correct there as that's what I was hoping for.
Even with a 60 grain bullet 12 grains of 2400 is all it takes to run 2400 fps. Plan is to let the SO's grand kids have at this thing. I can set up the Dillon and kick out 300 rounds an hour. Using a Lee collet neck sizer and no case lube. I've done it with 223.
Another thing is the CZ or Zastava are not some Ruger, Savage or Remington soft steel barrel. They are more like the after market barrels. Or the FN Winchester barrels. I'll say this right now. This new CZ 222 barrel is better made than my FN 30-06. That's a single comparison of course. Overall the rifle isn't near as nice as my FN Winchester. But the bore is very nice. This thing has years of shooting in it before it's degraded enough to be on par with most new cut rate rifles.

I'll just add. This CZ-527-LUX in 222 Rem is freakishly absent of any felt recoil. I've worn out a couple 223's in gas guns and bolt guns. This is a 6 1/4 pound rifle. Even with the J bullets at 3,000 fps I can't feel it set back at me. Of course I've been pushing rounds out my M70 in 30-06 for a year. Any way you figure it the triple deuce is very sweet.

These Lyman #225646 I'm casting with 2:6 cut then bumped with Rotto Metals #3 Babbitt with Cu are tough and I expect them to mushroom and hold most weight. Here in Illinois we can't hunt deer with rifle. So there is nothing that can legally be shot with a CF rifle this triple deuce can't handle. It's plenty gun in a 6 1/4 pound package.

[338RemUltraMag]

I legally can shoot deer with any centerfire, but that is why I have cast shooters in bores 30 cal and up along with a lonely 25-06 for jacketed stuff.

I cant wait to dust a yote or groundhog with this beast!

[GabbyM]

Yotes don't stand a chance. Question is will you blast out a big back side hole and ruin the fur value.
From my experience back in the 1970's. 50 grain blitz will not exit. Cast bullet is anybody's guess. Mine are tough with Cu enhanced Babbitt. Texas heart shot coyote from a Colt SP-1 with M193 Ball gives you a two piece coyote. Somewhat like a prairie dog blowing up. Of course you need to actually hit them not nick a quarter inch off.

Only down side I've seen in my 222 is I can't see bullets strike mud out in the corn field. With my Win 94 in 30-30 I know where the bullets strike.

[338RemUltraMag]

I will be shooting for a 25 dollar bounty, dont have time to mess with fur. I now will order in some known alloy from rotometals and get ready to shoot shoot shoot!

[Bullshop Junior]

Where are they paying a $25 bounty on coyotes?

[GabbyM]

I will be shooting for a 25 dollar bounty, dont have time to mess with fur. I now will order in some known alloy from rotometals and get ready to shoot shoot shoot!

Yes one of the niceties of a 22 is you can use a very rich alloy and still shoot economically. Since they are so small.

My Lyman 225646 has those thin grease groves in the nose. 2/6 doesn't get that done. I add tin and whatever for fill out. Cu for tough. They are beautiful and shoot great. Couple years back I did the math. 60 grain bullet with 7,000 grains to a pound. Conclusion was I can afford nice metal.

[Sweetpea]

Where are they paying a $25 bounty on coyotes?

Daniel, we have a $50 bounty in Utah...

[338RemUltraMag]

PA, they are so thick here guys can hammer 5 a day on state game lands

I am getting a 50 lb chunk of pure and an ingot of grade 1 babbit, possibly some "super hard" if the numbers show I need more antimony.

[Bullshop Junior]

Daniel, we have a $50 bounty in Utah...

Guy could make a living doing that....