Best lathe & milling machine for the $ ?

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

I'm a retired tool & die maker and miss having a lathe & mill around. gunsmithing & hobby work.

Have been looking at Harbor Fright stuff, but know that they have issues with the some parts, electric box's and motors some times.

What would be my best picks in the $3500-$4000 range for both the lathe & mill?

I am in Augusta Ga. and can travel to pick up a good used some thing also.

Thanks for any help
broom

[KCSO]

For the Lathe I would try and find a good used Sheldon or a South Bend, and for the Mill I would go with the Smithy. (Smithy.com)

[broomhandle]

Hi KCSO,

I really would like a South Bend. I spent a few years on one!

I'll haunt the used machinery boards. and ask around.

Be safe,
broomhandle

[Turboman]

South bends are good thats a fact,Ive got a Smithy lathe and mill,Once ya tweak them just alittle you would be amazed how accurate they can be,Ive built many rimfire benchrest rifles on mine and im very HAPPY WITH THEM.

[deltaenterprizes]

Check out the Practical Machinist site that is where I found my Victor 14x40 for $2800 excellent shape!Try Grizzly better quality than Harbor Freight and parts are lable.

[broomhandle]

Hi Turboman,

Which model do you have?

I have been told that the low priced units will only hold about .002 at best. This is feed back from two boards.

They also mentioned that one unit is all ways in the way of the operation your doing.
You have to be operating the mill from one side & that the mill head is in the way as you turn on the lathe.

What is your input?

Thanks,
broom

[broomhandle]

Thanks- Delta i'm off to visit them now!

Best to all,
broomhandle

[lastmanout]

I have bought and traded a few machine tools. I am not a trained machinist, but love to tinker. I sold a 1867 patent date Barnes treadle (foot powered) lathe and purchased a Smithy 1220xl in the 1990's. The Smithy and I never got along. After a while I really HATED it:twisted:. Next I found a old 1930's Southbend. It had seen use and abuse, but even old and tired is was a MUCH , MUCH better machine than the Three-in-one Smithy. I could make stuff to better tolerances. In the end, I wound up selling the Southbend and buying a 1960's Clausing 4900. I had a Jet mill/drill (hobby machine) it has been replaced with a 1970's Bridgeport J=head and came with DRO's. My last two machines came from defunct public school shops (too dangerous for kids). They are wonderful machines after i cleaned them up- replaced/repaired the 'kid stuff". I have about $4700 in the two. After using them, I would give up my hobby before buying another 3 in 1 Smithy. You just never know when a good machine/deal will show up. Good luck in your search.

[Buckshot]

.............Old American iron in good shape is still around, and you're lucky if any is around YOU when you're looking. Also is it the size you're looking for, is it tooled, does it need help, is it still even partly supported?

South Bend is pretty much 'THE' American lathe as they produced a sh*tpot full over the years and in sizes that are attractive to the home shop or hobbyist. In the same arena as SB, is Sheldon, Clausing, Logan, Delta-Rockwell, and maybe another couple I don't recall. The 3 most common are SB, Logan, and Clausing. Of these 3 I believe the best supported is probably the Logan, and if not it's a close second to which ever one is first.

These 3 in sizes favored by hobbyists were also favorites in school shops, vocational schools and light industry, which is probably the reason for thier availability.

In my book there are 3 really desirable features to look for. First is a quick change gearbox for powerfeed and threading. Next up would be a long taper spindle nose or 'L' type, or a 'D' series camlock type. There is also a short taper nose, and these overcome the issue of running in reverse that a threaded spindle nose has. Finally a spindle with at least a 1-3/8" hole through the spindle so you can use 5C collets with a tube closer.

The one real problem with affordable American lathes is that they are all used, and used to a greater or lessor degree. The problem here is being able to diagnose the utility of the machine or has the accuracy been beat out of it? I did once see on E-Bay 2 Logan/Powermatics that had been bought brand new in the 80's by a school district and warehoused. These were 11x36's that were variable speed underdrives with hardened beds. They had the accessories still boxed and strapped to the beds. A VERY uncommon occurance to be sure!

Very probably the best bet is to buy a new lathe from a reputable company that stands behind their equipment. There are several outfits with good customer service reputations. Naturally the lathes are generally of Chinese, Tiwanese, or Korean manufacture. The quality of the most common can be very poor to very good and is generally dictated by the end retailer. They may actually have someone 'on site' who inspects and spot checks for tolerance maintainence and accuracy.

Other end sellers may just take whatever comes down the line so thier quality is spotty. Some units reach the user and they're still full of casting sand and/ or swarf from their own manufacture. Their motors, and other electrical components can be of doubtfull quality. Harbor Freight had some metal cutting bandsaws with open frame motors installed :-) Sometimes armatures aren't dipped, and if they are they might not be baked, and plastics used where plastic is common can be inferior in fit, form and type.

If we're talking about buying new, so far as lathes go and with the 3 desireable features I mentioned you can get a light 12x36 machine and for a mill you're probably looking at a round column mill/drill and you may have some bucks left over for a few tools like a quick change tool holder for the lathe. While the lathe may have a 1-3/8" spindle bore you won't be getting the 5C collet closer with it.

The round column mill/drill is actually a pretty usefull machine. It's one main issue is that the table isn't on a knee so beyond the quill (z axis) travel you have to raise and lower the head. Since it's on a round column there isn't anything to keep it in tram when moved. So every time you do, you have to re-tram the head. Other then that they're capable of quite a lot, and folks have even installed CNC servos on them.

..................Buckshot

[KCSO]

Too bad you are so far away as I know of a S/B 9x36 wiht tooling for sale.

[uscra112]

I spent about 15 years in the machine tool rebuild business before I got into CMMs, where I've been for the last 13. I've messed about with almost every American M.T. builder's products, and for the most part anything after 1925 or so was pretty good to superb.

My humble opinion is that for a gunsmithing lathe, the old American iron is better than any of the low-price stuff from the Far East. The retailers of these have little to do with it. These machines are ordered by commercial buyers who know nothing but price and delivery, from whatever company will build the design the cheapest, and the quality is VERY, VERY spotty.

If you get REAL lucky, (I did) you'll be able to find a big-hole Sheldon or South Bend. The new Asian machines are gear drive, roller-bearing headstocks, which do not give the best surface finishes because they lack the dampening effect of the plain bearings in the old American machines. My current 12 inch big-hole S.B., and the ancient flat-belt Pratt & Whitney I once owned, give and gave me superb results. Better even than the Monarch 10EE I owned in between. I gladly paid almost $3000 for my S.B., and you will have to pry it from my cold dead hands if you want it. I would fight like He!! to find a good S.B., Clausing, Lodge&Shipley, American, Monarch.

A gunsmith needs more than the typical S.B. bench lathe, but having one doesn't hurt. My bench lathe is a Prazi, a German thing that looks like a watchmakers' lathe, and needs some significant improvements to do any decent work. I make mine work, but I wouldn't recommend one to anyone else. Logans are the bottom of the heap, IMHO, with the small S.B. not far behind. Light duty, need a lot of fettling to do good work, wear out fast. The BEST American bench lathe ever was the Rivett. They occasionally do show up, but often bring exciting prices. If you went into the aircraft instrument shops in the 1930s and 1940s, you would have seen a lot of Rivetts. (Emphasis on the 2nd syllable, by the way.)

As for mills, I think the story is a bit different. I have a cheap table-top vertical, on par with the Jet variety, (bought new), that does OK for my ordinary drilling and light milling, and with due care can put 2 holes within .001 true position on a 4" spacing, which is good enough for almost all gun work. A jig borer it ain't, but for well under $1K it has been a decent performer since day one. Belt drive spindle, a pain to change speeds, but since I mostly go from 1/4" holes to 1/16" holes and back again, I just set it to a compromise and let it go at that. I also have a little old Atlas horizontal bench machine that gets its' share of use, and it's just fine for gun work. Cost me $600 from a dealer. I bought an Atlas SHAPER from that same dealer for $700, and it's only done a few jobs, but it will do things no other machine can do. Like cut the mortise for a falling-block action, and the mortise for the locking slide in an ancient Hopkins & Allen shotgun.

Dual-purpose machines like the Smithy are not worth the paint they put on them, period. No-go zone ! The only such machine I ever saw that was worth a hoot was a German gizmo that had been designed for use on WW2 submarines. I can't remember the name, but it was a peach. I wish I'd bought it, but I wasn't flush at the time, and had to let it go. It was a little horizontal/vertical knee mill, (separate spindles) and had a nice solid tailstock to mount to the knee, (no, not the overarm, though it had one) so you could use it as a lathe, with the tools on the table. Table about 8" x 20" as I recall.

Check eBay. Check the boards. Google. You may not find your machine right away, but you WILL find the dealers. Here in Detroit we have North Coast Machinery, who specializes in this kind of stuff. That's where I do my shopping.

[richbug]

Keep in mind maybe only 10% of the South Bends have hardened ways. Nearly all the Clausings are.


Ive been told all Clausing parts are available. The parts are not cheap however. I need a cross feed screw and nut for my 5912(I can still hold .001" but have about a 1/2 turn of slop in it), $400 was the quote I got for the parts. I only paid $900 for the lathe and a pile of tooling. I had about $400 in a new motor and switch converting it to single Phase.

I guess that is still cheap in the grand scheme of things.

Around my neck of the woods there are lots of small machine shops. Good used Bridgeports are for sale pretty regularly for under $2000 as the shops upgrade to fancier electronics. I picked up a Taiwanese clone for $800 with digitals on it.

I know where there is a surface grinder currently that I can get for scrap value, just need to go get it.

The deals are out there, just have to watch for them.


If anybody knows where to get Clausing parts cheap, I'd appreciate the info.

[Dusty Wheeler]

"Dual-purpose machines like the Smithy are not worth the paint they put on them, period." Bravo!!

I had a Smithy 3 in 1...it's best days were the day it arrived and the day it left...in between was nothing but trouble!
I bought a Grizzly 9x20 lathe (I don't build rifles or do barrel work so the 20" bed isn't a problem). The motor gave out in the first 3 months...Grizzly sent a new one within a week...great customer service!
I bought a Grizzly square colum benchtop mill, G0619, and have been very happy with it. I had a Tree mill but sold it when I moved. It was a great mill but took up more space than I have.
Good luck in your search!

[broomhandle]

Hi Dusty,

I will check out Grizzley. Enco seems to have a good reputation too.

Best to you,
broom

[MtGun44]

A friend recommends Grizzly, he says they do the QA in their shop and
stand behind their machines. No personal experience.

Bill

[Turboman]

Broom handle
Ive got the granite dont remeber the model,But its 39 inches between centers,And u can tweak it much better than that,Ive also got one of their mils,Idont have the lathe drill mill machine like your thinking about,But my buddy has alittle one 20 inches between centers and we have tweaked his ver ywell also,They are well worth the money .Especially for the home machinest and amateur gunsmith in my opinion.

[crossfireoops]

Something I've learned over the years.....

On a gearhead bearing spindle,......modify / change your viscosity.

I've used both Morey's and Lucas......I guess STP would qualify.

"Doping" your gearhead / gearcase with different viscosities might surprise you.

you have do this on the cut.....and look at what you're getting for a finish.

You will know when you get it right, on a gearhead machine.

Put a magnet in the sump.

GTC

[snowman]

Best bang for the buck is dependant upon what you want to do :)

Do you want to make chips, or fix machinery?

Guess it doesn't matter. I've had old American (and british) and Asian Import...both break down.

I am however very partial to my Smart and Brown 10x24. Sucker is HEAVY...and you know it when you machine on it....never felt the same on a Jet 14x36 that I used to use...just never quite felt "solid".

[JIMinPHX]

In my opinion, the nicest home mill is the one that US Burke used to make under the Millright name. I see them popup fairly often. They are a little smaller than a Bridgeport. Most are single phase. They take R-8 tooling & parts can still be had from a company somewhere in the southeast. I forget their name. You can see a picture of that machine in the Lee Reloading manual. I think that Richard Lee’s son was running it in the picture when he was trying to make a prototype press.

Any old Bridgeport J-head that hasn’t been run to death is a gem to find if you have the room for it & the proper power to run it. Most are 3 phase. I’ve also had good experiences with Victor & Hartford brand knockoffs of J-heads. I turn my nose up at the older Bridgeport M-heads with the round headstock. Clausing made some cute little benchtop mills, but they took a keyless & tangless MT2 collet that had a bad habit of winding itself so tight in the spindle that you couldn’t remove it.

With a lathe, you really need to watch the condition. A lot of the used lathes on the market have beaten heads &/or ways. If possible, take a cut with it & see what kind of finish it gives. That is your best indicator of the headstock’s abilities. If you can take both heavy & lite cuts with no chatter & get a good finish on a material that resembles 1018 cold roll, then you probably have found a good machine. Finishes on Aluminum or lead-loy are not as good of a test. Of course, if the ways are beat, you will have taper issues. Check the chuck for runout too.

Next you need to consider the features that you need. If you expect to be single pointing threads, you need to pick a machine with a gearbox that has the pitches you want. Good luck finding one with the 50 pitch for making grip screws for a 1911. I had to resort to custom gears for that one. You might want to look at the through hole in the spindle too. The older machines tend to have pretty small holes. Since gun related stuff is generally restricted to small diameters, you can usually get away with a belt head lathe. Even the antique flat belts will do if they are in good shape. I’ve run lathes from South Bend, Hendy, F.E Reed, Clausing, Musser, Monarch, Atlas, Hardinge, Logan, Victor, Nardini, Fryar & Dawoo. Any of them would do a good job for me if they were kept in good condition. I had to make a custom gear for the Hendy when I got it because spares were not available. I had to make one for the Clausing too, since those thieves wanted $963 for one that I made out of 2 stock gears from Browning in about an hour & a half for less than $100. If a lathe needs something fixed when you buy it, there may be a reason why the previous owner didn't already fix it.

The Chinese stuff is starting to get better these days, but the majority of it is really still sub par. I take them on a case by case basis. You can replace the crummy contactors in the 4 wire single phase units with better ones from ABB, but if the mechanics are not up to snuff, then it’s a lost cause.

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=richbug;256637]Keep in mind maybe only 10% of the South Bends have hardened ways. Nearly all the Clausings are.


Ive been told all Clausing parts are available. The parts are not cheap however. I need a cross feed screw and nut for my 5912(I can still hold .001" but have about a 1/2 turn of slop in it), $400 was the quote I got for the parts. I only paid $900 for the lathe and a pile of tooling. I had about $400 in a new motor and switch converting it to single Phase.

I guess that is still cheap in the grand scheme of things.

QUOTE]

............Check ROTON or one of the other makers of precision ACME threaded rods. Or you can check with MSC or McMaster-Carr. Both these have precision ACME threaded rod in 1018, 4140 or stainless along with cast itron, bronze or steel nuts. You can then make your own crossfeed screw for half the cost. The nuts (from MSC) are large and round in OD so you'll need the services of a milling machine probably to create any flats required.

................Buckshot

[richbug]

............Check ROTON or one of the other makers of precision ACME threaded rods. Or you can check with MSC or McMaster-Carr. Both these have precision ACME threaded rod in 1018, 4140 or stainless along with cast itron, bronze or steel nuts. You can then make your own crossfeed screw for half the cost. The nuts (from MSC) are large and round in OD so you'll need the services of a milling machine probably to create any flats required.

................Buckshot


I had been think about that, but was going to make the parts from scratch myself. Figured I'd cut them on the lathe, and chase them with proper tap and die. Didn't realize the shafting and nuts were available over the counter.

I have milling capabilities, so that isn't a big deal.

[crossfireoops]

Jim said:

"In my opinion, the nicest home mill is the one that US Burke used to make under the Millright name. I see them popup fairly often. They are a little smaller than a Bridgeport. Most are single phase. They take R-8 tooling & parts can still be had from a company somewhere in the southeast. I forget their name. You can see a picture of that machine in the Lee Reloading manual. I think that Richard Lee’s son was running it in the picture when he was trying to make a prototype press."

I'd like to put my endorsemaent on that machine, You can get everything but the Servo electronics parts from D.M. Morrison Co., in Kentucky.....NICE folks
Really likable little brute of a machine, with some really innovative departures from Bridgeport design..........The servo drive on the splindle is WONDERFUL for boring, as opposed to gear drive J-Head. Mine came out of a N. Arizona trade school, and I got it from Moore tools in Phoenix about 6 years ago, .....$2000, ......needed cleaning, paint, and a dial in....It's served well since.

The quality of the castings is just flat wonderful, The best American founding was applied, and it really shines when you get out the polish.

You can see the Servo spindle downfeed in this pic, .......24Volt, ....needs a speedpot, this one's typically " bumpy" at the bottom end

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/robbinmyers/Millright2.jpg

These are no lightweight, Very massive rugged built for size, a small machine built outta' big machine parts. Somewhere's out there there's a companion horizontal model, a friend had one that I foolishly let slip away, .....but when you're broke , ....well you know what I mean.
IIRC the horizontal had it's share of inovative features as well.....the half nuts are superbly designed, ....and look like a lifetime part.........The horizontals utilise the same basic knee,and column / base with a different head.

IF any of you run onto a Burke "Millwright" horizontal, I'd be obliged at being steered in it's direction....less'n you're smart enough to grab it 'yerself.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/robbinmyers/Millright1.jpg

An honest critque,

........The aluminum drive pulleys resonate like crazy, ..and are NOISY. I should strip the things off and coat 'em with devcon flexane, ....a thin coat'll shut 'em up......for whatever it's worth....if you use the "Brush on" flexane, with the Pulleys arbored properly in a big ole' lathe, on rotation 'til curedm (Which can be Quick) .......this is a GREAT way to also get deadly balance factor,....as well as peace and quiet.
I do plan to convert this to a frequency drive somewhen, ....'til than, earplugs'll do.

Rolling the head on this thing is a 2 men and a boy kinda' chore, .....with "Lead hammer" dial in
to final.

The handwheels SUCK, .....obviously not enough for me to get serious about replacin' 'em.

The Knee crank SUCKS, .... What's on there now, that's an old '43 Spanish barrel and scrap cobbled during dial in phase, ........when it was completed I fired the original out into the desert, it's out there somewheres, .....rusting.

Glad I didn't have to put a "Bubble" in the roof to clear the drive motor !

Any half decent old machine is worth upgrading, and the only limitations to what you can do with Spindle bearings ( these are tapered cones ) is the depth of your pockets. I'd LOVE to see this spindle upgraded to Kadon or Cer-Mets. As is, it's a real fine spindle, certainly as good as any old Bridgeport.

So, .....in the price ranges discussed, the Burke Millwright's a good candidate, .....revise that a GREAT candidate.

Obviously I've got a serious love affair going with this one.

GTC

[uscra112]

A loud AMEN to the U.S. Burke. I had one when I lived in New England, but had to give it up when I moved to Michigan. That's the only one I've ever even SEEN, but it was a very nice little mill. I made bushels of special parts for my race bikes on it. Nice to learn that it isn't an unknown orphan - maybe I can find another one.

Crossfireoops - do you literally mean Morey and Lucas? I once worked for Morey, so I know that Morey never made a home-shop size mill. And Lucas of course was HBMs and some large multi-spindle profilers, (I rebuilt one of those myself while I was at Morey, In fact.)

Oh, and as for making leadscrews? When I worked for Hoffacker in Rhode Island, we made our own Acme screws on a thread miller, (expensive). But for ballscrews, we just bought unfinished assemblies with plain ends, cut them to length, and then "stubbed" each end to make a completed screw. "Stubbing" involved boring a hole into the end about 2" deep, press-fitting a piece of steel bar into it, (TIG welding it for security) and then machining the end as needed. No reason why you can't do that for an Acme screw.

[JIMinPHX]

Morrison...yea, that sounds about right. I think that those are the people that I used to get parts from. They were very good to deal with.

That mill in the picture is a little newer than the one I fooled with. Mine was pre-servo.

The bearings in that spindle may look like your run of the mill garden variety, but you should really use class 5 bearings in there. They ain't cheap, but they are worth it if you are going to do any real finish work with the machine.

As for making your own Acme Rod, I wouldn't do that. Acme & Metric Trapezoidal are my two least favorite threads to cut. They are even harder to make than the rounded root, rounded crest Witworths. There is a reason that Acme tap sets come with a roughing tap & a finish tap. That is a brutal thread profile to cut. Acme rod is something that I just buy. It's not worth trying to make it myself.

[JIMinPHX]

Ive been told all Clausing parts are available. The parts are not cheap however. I need a cross feed screw and nut for my 5912(I can still hold .001" but have about a 1/2 turn of slop in it), ...If anybody knows where to get Clausing parts cheap, I'd appreciate the info.

Have you tried splitting the nut? That's the quick & dirty fix for heavy lash in an axis screw. Basically, you take the old nut, cut it 90% of the way through (perpendicular to the axis) with a band saw, then drill & tap it across the cut for a small machine screw. You then tighten the machine screw until your lash is just about gone. Half the nut then pulls on the screw & half the nut then pushes on the screw. I've seen it done successfully on more machines than I can count. Some machines come with split nuts & lash screws right from the factory.

Of course ball-screws are the nice way to go.

[crossfireoops]

"Crossfireoops - do you literally mean Morey and Lucas? I once worked for Morey, so I know that Morey never made a home-shop size mill. And Lucas of course was HBMs and some large multi-spindle profilers, (I rebuilt one of those myself while I was at Morey, In fact.)"

OOps again, ...my bad.....I shoulda' said Lucas or Morey's FRICTION Additives....like STP.

Motor honey type stuff......oil enhancer.

A recalcitrant Gearhead spindle will oftimes settle down, ....with a tweak to Lubricant viscosity.

GTC

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

I'm checking with a friend that works for a school system & the company I worked for.

Normally the old machines are put in storage then sold off in a group. I was there about 12 years maybe I can buy one for a fair price.

Be well, & thanks for all the good info on what to buy and how to fix them!

broom:drinks:

[Buckshot]

I had been think about that, but was going to make the parts from scratch myself. Figured I'd cut them on the lathe, and chase them with proper tap and die. Didn't realize the shafting and nuts were available over the counter.

I have milling capabilities, so that isn't a big deal.

..............Forgot I had a couple pics"

http://www.fototime.com/1B59FD18EAAFB0E/standard.jpg

On the left is the original 7/16-10 LH crossfeed screw. It really wasn't bad. However the guy I bought my lathe from had another saddle and when he showed me that it had a 5/8" screw and said, "This'll NEVER wear out", I was impressed. Ergo.....................

http://www.fototime.com/92EFB7CD09DA01B/standard.jpg

The nut installed on my milling cross slide. Considering the nut starts out round, you can see how much I had to mill. I suppose the thing was 2" in diameter and 1.5" long.

...................Buckshot

[gordofromspace]

There are so many choices. I'm interesting in gunsmithing, I'd like to make my own 49.99 cal, like a Desert Eagle, but I'm also into science research and I want to make some parts for a project that are 304 stainless hemispheres. A friend tells me I need a mill with what he calls a 'lazy suzan' but that's not the official name, it's a mill bed attachment that allows for 2 swivel axis, which would allow me to make the hemispheres without a cnc. ... but what machine should I get for making such parts up to 6" in width??? My price range is 8k. Help! gordofromspace at yahoo

[HotGuns]

That would be called a rotary table. You clamp your work to it and it will turn any division of 360 degrees. It is clamped to the X axis and can be moved either X or Y .

[JSnover]

The higher-end imports are really not bad. I know a bunch of guys who run them and they all have the same opinion; 90% skill + 10%iron=100% quality, meaning it's all about the operator. They all have 20 or more years in the business and spent most of their time on US-made machines. If you find a domestic mill or lathe that hasn't been neglected or abused, buy it! If you want to save time and get a new machine with a warranty at an affordable price, shop Grizzly or Enco (recently bought by MSC). Customer service from either of them is very good. At most you'll need to do a bit of cleaning and tweaking as you set it up.