Propane Prices

[Iowa Fox]

A couple weeks ago our propane supplier called to see if we needed any as he was going to be in the area at $1.99 a gallon. I checked the tank and didn't need any so I told him next trip when he is in the area which is about two weeks. Today I called him and told him I'm ready but the price today is $3.59. Holy Smokes!!! One of the ladies said their supplier is at $3.97. The news is saying these price spikes happened in the last 24hr. Right now its 30 below with the wind chill. Thank goodness I've got enough wood piled up at the house to last to the end of February.

How are prices in the rest of the country?

[grumman581]

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=EER_EPLLPA_PF4_Y44MB_DPG&f=D

http://journalstar.com/business/agriculture/propane-prices-spike-to-record-highs/article_7a4a8016-3dda-5887-86dd-a2b21f88947b.html

Glad I have natural gas service ... and live in a place so warm that the temperature inside a non-heated house never gets below 60F anyway.

[s mac]

A friend of mine raises chicken commercialy told me propane went up .50 last week, another $1.50 yesterday. Wow, hard for him to make a living like that. I also heard we're selling it to China. That helps.

[cali4088]

your price is a direct effect of supply and demand. Especially in cold weather areas of the country at this moment if time. I paid around 2.50 in WA state a week or two ago

[cali4088]

BTW, check craigslist to see if anyone in your area is selling their barbque pit. Maybe their propane tank still has some left in it. They might sell you just the tank and not the bbq for 10 bucks or less. Worth a try. Regards, David

[Jailer]

Be glad you can order what you need. They are rationing it around these parts due to a propane shortage.

[Hardcast416taylor]

BTW, check craigslist to see if anyone in your area is selling their barbque pit. Maybe their propane tank still has some left in it. They might sell you just the tank and not the bbq for 10 bucks or less. Worth a try. Regards, David

This is ALMOST funny.Robert

[starmac]

Just ALMOST???

[dagger dog]

$3.79 gal. here. South Central Indiana, about as south as 5 miles north of the Ohio River.

[rockrat]

Don't know what it is and not to sounds like a jerk, don't care. Our propane place has a pre-buy for the winter and I bought 600 gallons, so it doesn't matter what the price is right now, mine is already paid for at the cheaper price.

For those of you that need it now, man, I feel for you.

[dragon813gt]

Is it bad that I question any shortage? Could this be a ploy to raise prices and maximize profits? I really hate being this cynical. And it's pretty convenient that it coincides w/ the arctic temps that are here.

[oneokie]

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=EER_EPLLPA_PF4_Y44MB_DPG&f=D

http://journalstar.com/business/agriculture/propane-prices-spike-to-record-highs/article_7a4a8016-3dda-5887-86dd-a2b21f88947b.html

Glad I have natural gas service ... and live in a place so warm that the temperature inside a non-heated house never gets below 60F anyway.

You may want to check NG prices. Reports in some places say it has jumped to more than $8 per thousand cu. ft.

[cali4088]

This is ALMOST funny.Robert

Considering i got half a tank on a 20lb and the same with a 15 lb one, it was pretty funny as I walked away with 2 propane tanks and 5 lbs of propane for 20 bucks! i was laughing at the money i saved. Even laughed a little as i melted my lead a few hours later [smilie=l:

[Blanket]

My supplier said his cost went to over 4 which means it will be close to 5 delivered, glad I bought in August at 1.46. Limited to 200 gallons also. Nice to heat with wood though. It's -1 without the wind right now Russ

[Doc_Stihl]

My propane company has been filling our tank every 3 months for 9 years. They just came around and filled us up in December, came by again last week to put another 22 gallons in at over $4 a gallon. And hit us with delivery charges for another $20. I think I'll be finding another company in the spring. Pushing out as much as they can while the price is high.

[dragon813gt]

You may want to check NG prices. Reports in some places say it has jumped to more than $8 per thousand cu. ft.

Where is that at? It's not trading anywhere close to that level? Here is this weeks update: http://www.eia.gov/naturalgas/weekly/

W/ the amount of natural gas we produce there should be no shortage. I guess the issue is storage at this point. Prices don't change quickly w/ NG which is a good thing. I'm still paying 50% less per CCF then I was in 2006.

[sparky45]

your price is a direct effect of supply and demand. Especially in cold weather areas of the country at this moment if time. I paid around 2.50 in WA state a week or two ago
Not exactly right, there is also a Propane shortage.

[osteodoc08]

$2.99 a gallon in NW GA at Tractor Supply. I have a small 100# cylinder i lug over there to run our ventfree fireplace in the living room. At full blast it will last about 7 days. It keeps the living area and upstairs nice and toasty.

I filled it up a few months ago before "cold" season got here and it was $2.39 a gallon if memory serves me well.

[dragon813gt]

Not exactly right, there is also a Propane shortage.

Is there? Who says there is a shortage? I doubt everything anymore and it's really no fun :(

[km101]

Here in N. Texas the price is $3.00 a gallon delivered with a 150 gal. minimum. Up from $2.16 a gallon a couple of months ago.

And this is not even cold country!

[runfiverun]

the Midwest has been having a problem even getting propane for quite some time now.
the farmers there use quite a bit of it and they have been predicting this increase for about a month now.
there is also talk about natural gas prices going up about 20%.
another 10-15 on top of that and I can get back to work about 1000 miles closer to home.

[BD]

$2.14 in Ellsworth Maine last night at 7:00 PM
BD

[MtGun44]

If you want to know what is happening - here it is. This is not an accident and is
not caused by the energy companies. They are doing their darnedest to keep
power and fuels cheap, the government is doing there darnedest to make ALL
forms of energy expensive - so they can push their beloved solar, wind and other
BS schemes.

The fracking boom has opened up a huge amount of new natural gas in this country,
which lowered the price of NG and propane, which is pulled out of NG. This huge extra
supply of fracked NG lowered the price of NG and propane, good news.

Obama has told the EPA to write regulations to force power plants to stop using coal.
So, the power plants have been forced to switch from cheap coal to expensive NG and because
they use HUGE amounts of NG, they are causing a shortage, which drives up the price of
NG. Guess what, this also drives up the price of propane and causes a shortage.

So - the current folks in the EPA are both trying their darnest to stop fracking to stop
there from being completion to expensive wind, solar and other silly schemes AND
shutting down the one fuel that we have more of than the rest of the planet - coal,
and force the power plants to either shut down or switch to NG.

Wait until you get your electric bills! NG power is a lot more expensive that coal
power.

Thank the EPA, the Dept of Energy and the President.

Write your Congressman and Senator to get the EPA off the back of
coal. This War on Coal is also a war on all the rest of the power sources
since there is only so much and if you want your lights on, they need
something to power the plants if the feds say that they can't use coal.

Oh, yes - I predict that the price of coal will drop and the Chinese will start
buying all our coal. SO - your high electricity and gas and propane costs
will be indirectly subsidizing the Chinese to have cheaper electricity AND
the COAL WILL BE BURNED. Thank you government.

Bill

[Rick N Bama]

Some 3 weeks ago I was quoted $3.74 a gallon delivered with a minimum of 100 gallons, COD. As I've just a casual user I told them to shove it. Today my daughter paid $3.99 with a minimum of 200 gallons COD. The driver told me that it would be $4.50 or so by this time next week.

This area has a world of Broiler Chicken Houses that use Propane for heat. I heard on tonight's News that the UPG Co. has cut off all delivery to Chicken Houses.

[cali4088]

Not exactly right, there is also a Propane shortage.

Thats called supply and demand. If there is a shortage, supply shrinks, demand stays the same, prices go up. Capitalism

[cali4088]

If you want to know what is happening - here it is. This is not an accident and is
not caused by the energy companies. They are doing their darnedest to keep
power and fuels cheap, the government is doing there darnedest to make ALL
forms of energy expensive - so they can push their beloved solar, wind and other
BS schemes.

The fracking boom has opened up a huge amount of new natural gas in this country,
which lowered the price of NG and propane, which is pulled out of NG. This huge extra
supply of fracked NG lowered the price of NG and propane, good news.

Obama has told the EPA to write regulations to force power plants to stop using coal.
So, the power plants have been forced to switch from cheap coal to expensive NG and because
they use HUGE amounts of NG, they are causing a shortage, which drives up the price of
NG. Guess what, this also drives up the price of propane and causes a shortage.

So - the current folks in the EPA are both trying their darnest to stop fracking to stop
there from being completion to expensive wind, solar and other silly schemes AND
shutting down the one fuel that we have more of than the rest of the planet - coal,
and force the power plants to either shut down or switch to NG.

Wait until you get your electric bills! NG power is a lot more expensive that coal
power.

Thank the EPA, the Dept of Energy and the President.

Write your Congressman and Senator to get the EPA off the back of
coal. This War on Coal is also a war on all the rest of the power sources
since there is only so much and if you want your lights on, they need
something to power the plants if the feds say that they can't use coal.

Oh, yes - I predict that the price of coal will drop and the Chinese will start
buying all our coal. SO - your high electricity and gas and propane costs
will be indirectly subsidizing the Chinese to have cheaper electricity AND
the COAL WILL BE BURNED. Thank you government.

Bill

NOW THIS IS FUNNY! Here I thought the horrible winter conditions that have been hitting much of the east coast raised the price of propane because demand had risen because people are heating their homes non stop. Thanks for explaining it to us. Obama did it! Apparently that evil Obama just sent out an exuctive order just last week ordering propane to be rationed, hence the rise in propane prices.

[Rex]

I remember in the 60's paying .07 to .08 and hollered when it went over a dime. Maybe those were the "good old days".

[w0fms]

Yeah.. the best decision I ever made when I built my rural property 12 years ago was to put in a horizontal loop ground source (geothermal) heat pump.

I calculated the payback at 10 years, then propane went sky high the first time. It paid back in 5 years. Wood was an alternative, but comparing a friend who heats with wood with his cost of supplies for a year I am still slightly ahead and I don't have to do all that work.

And I'm in Iowa too. I'm hearing about that on the radio and smiling... Hopefully you can make it a couple of weeks until we pull out of this cold snap.. prices will drop back down...

[rockrat]

Saw on TV on cnbc that NG is now $4.83 , up from $4.38 last week, so its up about 10%

Look at propane like hotel rooms near the super bowl. $200 rooms are now $900. After the super bowl, be back down in price.

Who is benefiting from high propane prices, probably look down the chain to see who has it in storage. I am sure in the price chain, it has everyone adding a bit extra, for more profit. Look at 22lr prices, same thing. Something is scarce, price goes up. Supply and demand.

[cali4088]

^Did you vote for 0?
Who here voted for 0?
Of course everything wrong with the country is 0's fault the monkey with a hand grande been running the place for 4+ years now for pete's sake.

I like to lay blame where blame lies. Pulling the wool over your eyes and just blaming one person for decades of horrible policies from both sides in my opinion doesnt make sense. Whatever floats your boat they say though. Sorry but my values dont allow me to call the POTUS a monkey. You may dislike the man as a person but I was taught to have respect for the office, whoever is in charge. Take care

[w0fms]

Horizontal loop. Meaning 6-10' down (I had to go shallow where I was at meaning the loop had to be longer).. about 1000' total of loop. The "geothermal" means that the ground (under the frost line) at 50-ish degrees nominal. If you drill a well, or "go vertical" then you are always heating and cooling from 54*F (or thereabouts, I'm doing this from memory and I'm old enough for "CRS"). If you "go horizontal" then you size the loop field to go to freezing or slightly below at the end of winter to get literally almost free Air Conditioning in the summer. The heating isn't almost free but it works really well for me until the middle to end of January, and then okay in Feburary. In March, it's warm enough not to matter that it's about to become inefficient. This winter is a little cold, so I'm not going to do as well as most, but it's still a lot cheaper than propane and is on par with wood. I do have plenty of wood (11 acres) so I did consider it. It's so much work though I'm glad I went the way I did.

[oneokie]

A horizontal ground loop only has to be buried about 4 or 5 feet, depending on location. Colder climes would probably have to be deeper.

[cali4088]

Your boat is sinking and 0 has the plug in his hand grinning like a SE Asian muslim that just ate your pooch.

True story, Once knew a guy who blamed Obama for his ****** pills being shipped late by the USPS. Something to do with "Tax Payers" money being given to the USPS Liberals to slow down deliveries to slow the economy down. Me and a few of my friends just laughed and walked away, didn't say anything. Hey, I served so you have the freedom to express your opinion. Rock on Bill. Take Care......

[shooter93]

We're not in the energy business....we're in the energy shortage business.

[dagger dog]

In my home area this winter is the first "normal" winter we have had in the last 30 years. Prior to that all the winters have been a lot warmer. The norm was October brought the first snow, January and February were the coldest with 2-3 weeks being below freezing for each month. From 1978 through 2012, we have hade sporadic cold snaps, but not the winters that were a norm from 1957-1977.

Global warming is a FACT, yes you may laugh when a warm snap happens, but look back (if you are old enough) and compare the differences. The effect is geographically diverse and is wide spread, different to all areas, as weather. But climate changes are long term, and the current trend of global warming is causing these violent fluctuations in the weather patterns.

4 degree changes in total global warmth changes the ocean currents (East coast Gulf Stream, West Coast Humbolt), the fresh water polar ice caps are fresh water, as the green house effect from the input of man made emissions combine with the natural CO2 melts the fresh water caps, the main ocean currents that are driven by the saline to fresh water incline (salt water is heavier and drops to the bottom and the fresh water moves in to the top) are halted by the influx of the fresh diluting the heavier salt water and stops those warm currents that flow from the equator, (making changes in total climate), and yes it may be 70* above in some areas, but the over all effect is we are on the swing to another climate change, and their ain't no body alive that can say they were not.

I'm not saying we are the cause , it may be a natural swing, but personally I believe we have contributed to the changes, and I don't think anyone can honestly say we haven't (tree huggers or not).

So if your young enough hang around for another 20 years and see what it cost to stay warm or cool. We are in for a big change.

[cali4088]

In my home area this winter is the first "normal" winter we have had in the last 30 years. Prior to that all the winters have been a lot warmer. The norm was October brought the first snow, January and February were the coldest with 2-3 weeks being below freezing for each month. From 1978 through 2012, we have hade sporadic cold snaps, but not the winters that were a norm from 1957-1977.

Global warming is a FACT, yes you may laugh when a warm snap happens, but look back (if you are old enough) and compare the differences. The effect is geographically diverse and is wide spread, different to all areas, as weather. But climate changes are long term, and the current trend of global warming is causing these violent fluctuations in the weather patterns.

4 degree changes in total global warmth changes the ocean currents (East coast Gulf Stream, West Coast Humbolt), the fresh water polar ice caps are fresh water, as the green house effect from the input of man made emissions combine with the natural CO2 melts the fresh water caps, the main ocean currents that are driven by the saline to fresh water incline (salt water is heavier and drops to the bottom and the fresh water moves in to the top) are halted by the influx of the fresh diluting the heavier salt water and stops those warm currents that flow from the equator, (making changes in total climate), and yes it may be 70* above in some areas, but the over all effect is we are on the swing to another climate change, and their ain't no body alive that can say they were not.

I'm not saying we are the cause , it may be a natural swing, but personally I believe we have contributed to the changes, and I don't think anyone can honestly say we haven't (tree huggers or not).

So if your young enough hang around for another 20 years and see what it cost to stay warm or cool. We are in for a big change.


Shhh..... people are NOT supposed to believe man has an impact on how our environment operates. Its all a hoax remember :wink:

[HATCH]

I don't buy propane for my house.
I do "exchange" tanks for my mother in law's patio heater. Right now its about $20 to exchange a 20lb tank.

I know that my shop which isn't insulated will use up a entire tank in a 8hr day keeping it at 60 degrees when its 30 degrees outside.

My project when it warms up is to insulate it and put up plywood ceilings and walls (OSB).

[btroj]

Nobody can say for certain whether we have or haven't, can they? We don't know exactly what happened in the past nor do we know what would have happened had the industrial revolution never occurred.

I suppose I should is it be quiet since I don't love on either coast and am therefore incapable of being knowledgable on the subject.

[leeggen]

This thread just might get real serious. I beleive Bill W. and Mtgun44 to probably be more correct on several subjects around here.
CD

[cali4088]

I don't buy propane for my house.
I do "exchange" tanks for my mother in law's patio heater. Right now its about $20 to exchange a 20lb tank.

I know that my shop which isn't insulated will use up a entire tank in a 8hr day keeping it at 60 degrees when its 30 degrees outside.

My project when it warms up is to insulate it and put up plywood ceilings and walls (OSB).

Take my advice from an earlier comment on this thread. Look on Craigslist for people selling propane tanks in your area, you'll most likely find people selling propane tanks with barb q pits for CHEAP, like 20 bucks for it all. contact them and ask to buy their tank only for $5 or $10. I have 3 tanks total and get them filled in bulk. You're getting ripped off with exchange tanks. Are you buying the blue rhino exchange tanks? Its 20 plus tax at most places if im not mistaken. Even at $3 a lb at a local feed store(guessing that's what it cost you), your 20 lb tank only takes in minimum 5 gallons. So that's $15 instead of $20 with an exchange. You basically recouped your money from one propane purchase because you didn't have to drive to go and exchange one tank and it was cheaper.

Also might want to get a door sweep to keep your heat in. My two cents. David

[chambers]

Propane here in Wisconsin is being rationed, letter from one of our LP companies is no longer delivering LP to heat garages, sheds, etc. They do not have enough propane to go around and delivering only about 100 gallons per residential delivery. Oh did I forget to mention the price this week $ 4.00 if you can find it. Stay warm!! Also shutting down large users of natural gas where gas is interruptable service on Monday for several large uses for Monday- they got the notice today.

[CastingFool]

We prebuy our propane in June or July. A bit difficult to shell out $1300-$1400 at one time, but it's worth it. Not looking forward to next year.

[Blacksmith]

I'm old enough to remember that before "Global Warming" they were predicting the "Coming Ice Age". Meteorologists who can't accurately predict what the temperature at their office will be tomorrow or if it will rain in any given city next weekend can somehow miraculously predict what the global climate will be 100 years from now? They aren't even certain what the weather was doing in many areas 200 years ago. If you think they know what they are doing bookmark this site http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ and during the next hurricane go and look at the storm track computer predictions. Instead of working to get one that is correct they just keep making new computer models and hope that one of the many different tracks is right for this storm so they can say they were right.

[dragon813gt]

Also shutting down large users of natural gas where gas is interruptable service on Monday for several large uses for Monday- they got the notice today.

This is normal practice and the plants have contracts w/ the utility companies. The ones around here will be on oil most of the time through the end of the month. You think $4.00 a gallon of propane is bad? Imagine using 7,000 gallons of #2 fuel oil a day. That plant always has a tanker on site because they can't be down at all.

Curtailment contracts are a money maker for the company I work for. Those old boilers don't like firing up when you switch them over to run on #6 oil. It's hard enough to get that tar to move at 70 degrees. At 5 degrees it might as well be cement.

[MtGun44]

Have a laugh. Or read a bit and gain understanding of what is
actually going on.

Do you understand that various forms of energy are linked together
in prices? If one goes up or is in short supply, it will affect other ones
which may be substituted for the original which is more expensive or
hard to get? Econ 101.

Widely known, except in California. :bigsmyl2:

That is where the sun has no affect on the climate, but a .01% change in a trace gas
in the atmosphere (which is necessary for plants to live) has a massive
effect. :bigsmyl2:

The seventh grade civics view of the world doesn't get you much insight,
you have to read about what is going on in the world and what the
government is doing.

Sure, short term, weather has a big effect, but in the longer term larger market forces
are the drivers. EPA regs are making it impossible to burn coal and either new gas
plants or converting coal plants to gas will meet EPA regs. There is a steady move
to use more NG by huge users, largely driven by pressure on coal from the EPA.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/28/column-epa-coal-fired-power-idUSL6E8ES90R20120328

Key paras from the Rueters article:

"Proposed emission rules for new power plants unveiled by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA) on March 27 spell the gradual demise of coal-fired power generation and entrench the current
cost advantage for natural gas.

The agency's proposed rule, signed yesterday, would set a standard well within the capability of
modern gas-fired plants but impossible for coal-fired units to meet unless they employ
(unproven) carbon capture and storage (CCS) technology."

Excerpt from this Forbes magazine article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2013/03/13/coal-to-gas-moves-are-generating-economic-waves/

"Georgia Power, a subsidiary of Southern Company, is retiring 2,000 megawatts of fossil-fired generation.
Altogether, it will be shedding 15 coal and oil facilities. Five years ago, the parent’s fuel mix consisted of
70 percent coal but now it is 47 percent. That coal configuration will fall further unless technologies that
would capture and bury carbon are commercialized.

“They are faced with economic choices that are becoming untenable,” says Craig Dowdy, a partner
with McKenna Long in Georgia. “Now, with the pricing of natural gas, it has become a good option. I
would still advise utilities to have diverse portfolios, which will be their continued plan as it will be for
their regulators. It adds to the ultimate reliability.”

Meantime, Duke Energy just held a teleconference with analysts to discuss, in part, its move to
shutter 6,800 megawatts of coal-based electricity by 2015. It will spend $9 billion to upgrade its
generation fleet, which involves mostly the construction of natural gas units as well as an advanced
coal gasification plant that will become operational later this year.

Consider MidAmerican Energy, a unit of Warren Buffet’s Berkshire Hathaway: It is nixing five
coal-burning facilities by 2016 in Iowa, which is all part of a legal settlement it had reached
with the Sierra Club. At the same time, it will retrofit two other coal facilities there next year.
For its part, MidAmerican has become a leading wind energy producer.

American Electric Power, meanwhile, said that it would close three coal-fired power plants in
Ohio, part of an earlier legal settlement that also requires the company to build 200 megawatts
of wind and solar. And, Minnesota Power, a division of Allete, said this year that it would shut
down two coal plants in the northern part of the state within two years."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHL404zhcU

From the man's own mouth, his plan has been for "electricity rates to skyrocket" as he
bans coal. NG is taking up the slack and as more and more plants switch to NG or are
shut down and replaced with new NG plants, there is less surplus on the market, so
prices rise. He wasn't able to get Congress to pass his original plan, which he
called "Cap and Trade" restrictions on carbon dioxide, so he had the EPA write regs
to limit it. Pretty much the same effect. That wind and solar that is being forced on
the power companies costs between 2 and 3 times what the fossil fuel based power costs.

Believe that so much added use of NG by huge users like powerplants leaves less for other
things like heating your house, so the price rises. Propane is derived from NG and is
tied to it in price, although not directly.

Believe what you want. Just complaining about high propane prices may be satisfying, but I
actually want to understand what is going on in the markets that will change those prices.
The facts are the facts whether you agree or not does not change them.

Much of the media is ignoring this story, so you may have to look around a bit, but the facts
are there.

Bill

[Iowa Fox]

When I was a kid at home all we had was wood and maybe a little coal sometimes. It was the 1960s when mom & dad got an oil burner in the house and I left for the Army. We would be up around the clock keeping the tank fires going for the livestock and feeding the furnace in the basement in weather like this. The old furnace was convection, no blowers or fans of any kind so no worries if we were without power for a few days. In the 1950s my dad got a 2 cylinder Diston chain saw with a 48" bar. After we had the tree down we used a buzz saw on the front of a B John Deere to work it up. Can't help but remember some of this during this good old fashioned winter.

[MtGun44]

+1 on the dollar being intentionally inflated so it buys less of real world commodities,
like lead, copper, zinc (anyone around here use any of these?) and PROPANE.

"Quantitative easing" - such a bland way of saying "creating billions of dollars a month
from thin air".

Bill

[runfiverun]

yeah the government has no bearing on our oil and gas reserves.
remember when gas went down just below 3.00 a gallon then shot right back up??
it was just a little while ago.
a month or so back.
guess when we decided to export more oil??
yeah when gasoline went down to a reasonable level.

right now [today] the Bakken reserve put out 980,000 barrels of oil, it'll do it tomorrow too.
think jugears stopping the keystone pipeline didn't affect nothing???
that oil now has to be shipped by rail car and truck, yeah oil shipped this way costs more
10.00 a barrel more.
think about that.....
10 dollars or a 10% increase right off the bat.
then cut the amount that can be moved.
then when it starts affecting the economy positively just cut the reserves.... yep there is no way the idiot in charge can influence the cost of fuels.

[MT Gianni]

In my home area this winter is the first "normal" winter we have had in the last 30 years. Prior to that all the winters have been a lot warmer. The norm was October brought the first snow, January and February were the coldest with 2-3 weeks being below freezing for each month. From 1978 through 2012, we have hade sporadic cold snaps, but not the winters that were a norm from 1957-1977.

Global warming is a FACT, yes you may laugh when a warm snap happens, but look back (if you are old enough) and compare the differences. The effect is geographically diverse and is wide spread, different to all areas, as weather. But climate changes are long term, and the current trend of global warming is causing these violent fluctuations in the weather patterns.

4 degree changes in total global warmth changes the ocean currents (East coast Gulf Stream, West Coast Humbolt), the fresh water polar ice caps are fresh water, as the green house effect from the input of man made emissions combine with the natural CO2 melts the fresh water caps, the main ocean currents that are driven by the saline to fresh water incline (salt water is heavier and drops to the bottom and the fresh water moves in to the top) are halted by the influx of the fresh diluting the heavier salt water and stops those warm currents that flow from the equator, (making changes in total climate), and yes it may be 70* above in some areas, but the over all effect is we are on the swing to another climate change, and their ain't no body alive that can say they were not.

I'm not saying we are the cause , it may be a natural swing, but personally I believe we have contributed to the changes, and I don't think anyone can honestly say we haven't (tree huggers or not).

So if your young enough hang around for another 20 years and see what it cost to stay warm or cool. We are in for a big change.

I work for a utility. In 2003 they decided that it was getting warmer and the core way that rates were being set needed to be changed. Going back 130 years in Montana found that on a ten year average nothing had changed. Inside of that ten year average the swings had been more severe than any of the decades previously measured but the degree days [change from 65F temperatures in the day] had remained the same using decade averaging.

[Iowa Fox]

My take on the price drop we saw a couple months ago is that it was timed exactly when the mandatory ethanol was phased in. They knew that if prices remained the same and people saw a 8 to 10 percent drop in fuel economy the public out cry would be huge. Give um cheap gas and the people will not notice the loss of fuel economy them bring the prices back.

[MaryB]

As the wood pellets I am using are all going on season ending sale....

[dagger dog]

Their ain't no doubt, this winter is one to remember, especially for me ( my first year drawing my rocking chair money) and I switched from wood-fuel oil to propane.

Sold my log splitter, but still have my wood furnace, can't keep up with the wood anymore, the wood was great, kept the floors warm and the basement. Spent $ 650 last year for wood, but just stacking is more than I can handle.

I cut and burned trees from my property for years , but can't do that anymore, even buying requires more energy that I can muster.

Won't be long before the missus and me will have to give it up and move to something smaller.

I hate the fact that I'm not self sufficient any more!

[uscra112]

My guess, (and it's only an educated guess), is that, like gasoline, the production and distribution of propane is planned and executed so far in advance that a winter that is colder than predicted will strain supply, and a warm one will leave them with gas left over in May.

[Hickory]

Could it be?
I'm not saying it is, but could it be this is the result of Obama's war on oil & coal?
And LP gas is the unintended consequence.

[uscra112]

As for AGW - well.....

http://wattsupwiththat.com/ Best site there is, but too technical for most laymen.

http://climateaudit.org/ More political, but Steve McIntyre is the guy who blew the "Hockey Stick" to smithereens.

[Boz330]

Got me as well. They limited us to 80gal and it was $2.74. Summer fill was $1.19 a gallon, which is why I always try to time it. The real problem is my business, it usually burns twice as much as my house. Since I'm recovering from having my knees replaced I haven't been working so I keep the temp down to 38* in the shop, the down side is I'm not making any money. I do have a fall back though since a friend of mine has a bulk tank and sells LP but not in the winter. I can get what I need and transfer it if necessary.

Bob

[blackthorn]

I do not have a dog in this fight, but---I must respectively disagree with cali4088's assertion that your president (or any other person regardless of place or position) commands respect on the basis of the position he/she holds! Respect is earned period, full stop! My wife and I were watching the news on TV last night and I commented to her on how lucky Canadians were that the idiot leading the Liberal party (synonymous with your Democrats) in Canada when the recent tough times hit was not in power or we would be over our heads in debt (more than we are at least). Often I can respect even those to whom I am diametrically opposed BUT that respect must be earned!

[B R Shooter]

I agree with you blackthorn. This president (left in lower case for a reason) has done nothing but DISRESPECT the office in which he holds. And DISRESPECT our entire Country and reputation. Respect is indeed earned, and this silly worthless excuse for a man has done NOTHING for this Country, instead he has been trying to bring it down since he was elected the first time.

[rockrat]

The hoax is that many claim that it is ALL our fault. Climate change has been going on since time immemorial. Go find fossilized sea shells at 6000ft (and higher) in the Rockies. Look thru the geologic record and you will find plenty of evidence of climate change and trangressing and regressing seas. Ours is a dynamic earth, not a stagnant one.

Go to central park in NYC and find evidence of glaciers and their retreat. Research plate tectonics and see how the earth has changed.

Have WE had an influence? Who knows. Can we affect any change by what we do? Also unknown. But you are talking to the wrong person if you are blaming all of the change on mankind.

Back to propane prices. Our local propane dealer contracts for a certain amount of propane, usually in early Spring. So it might be that the companies that produce the propane by stripping it from natural gas, produce the amount that has been ordered and don't have alot in storage. So when the demand hits, due to the cold, there is only so much in the pipeline and they cannot keep up with demand. To me, to jack the price up because of the shortage is not right, but you find that everywhere. Hotels in hot vacation spots jack their prices up come tourist season, but I never hear wailing and people complaining about hotel prices. Look at prices of AR15's this last year. $600 guns were selling for $1,200 or more. If you had two strangers come up to you wanting to buy that box of 22's in your hand, and one offered $30 and the other $60, who would you sell it to?
Had to laugh at the TV the other night. Guy was complaining about heating costs of his house and how he had to lower his thermostat down from the mid 70's to 71 degrees to save money. Heck, my thermostat never see's the 70's in the winter. 61 at night and 67 during the day(maybe)

[MT Gianni]

The hoax is that many claim that it is ALL our fault. Climate change has been going on since time immemorial. Go find fossilized sea shells at 6000ft (and higher) in the Rockies. Look thru the geologic record and you will find plenty of evidence of climate change and trangressing and regressing seas. Ours is a dynamic earth, not a stagnant one.

Go to central park in NYC and find evidence of glaciers and their retreat. Research plate tectonics and see how the earth has changed.

Have WE had an influence? Who knows. Can we affect any change by what we do? Also unknown. But you are talking to the wrong person if you are blaming all of the change on mankind.

Back to propane prices. Our local propane dealer contracts for a certain amount of propane, usually in early Spring. So it might be that the companies that produce the propane by stripping it from natural gas, produce the amount that has been ordered and don't have alot in storage. So when the demand hits, due to the cold, there is only so much in the pipeline and they cannot keep up with demand. To me, to jack the price up because of the shortage is not right, but you find that everywhere. Hotels in hot vacation spots jack their prices up come tourist season, but I never hear wailing and people complaining about hotel prices. Look at prices of AR15's this last year. $600 guns were selling for $1,200 or more. If you had two strangers come up to you wanting to buy that box of 22's in your hand, and one offered $30 and the other $60, who would you sell it to?
Had to laugh at the TV the other night. Guy was complaining about heating costs of his house and how he had to lower his thermostat down from the mid 70's to 71 degrees to save money. Heck, my thermostat never see's the 70's in the winter. 61 at night and 67 during the day(maybe)

In a stripping plant the gasses reach their own levels and would separate on their own if left in a container. Natural gas has a Specific gravity of .6 it rises. [Air is 1.0] Freeze point is -273 F when it goes liquid. LP gas is 1.5 with a Freeze point of -40 F it sinks. Butane has a S. G. of 2.0 and it sinks, freeze point is 32F. None of the gasses are normally mixed though they can be in smaller lots if possible. Natural gas burners are run at 3.5" of water column, LP & Butane @ 11". If you put Nat gas in a propane furnace without an orifice change and a pressure reduction you have a lot more fire than you can handle, LP in a Nat.Gas designed furnace burns inside the burner and rolls out the front of the furnace as it is not pushed hard enough.
Laymans terms but I believe the problem is not a US shortage of LP but a regional one in the cold weather areas. Everyone in the energy industry buys and sells on long range and short range terms, as long as 20 years and as short as hourly. Most LP that I am aware of is shipped bulk tanker through rail or highway. If someone contracts for winter purchase in Sept depending on the last 5 years purchases and use they may not have the ability to buy more. It is not sitting around in a feed store in downtown Pagosa Springs but contracted to someone else. Many utilities in the NE and North Central States are nearly maxed out on Nat gas pipelines. They have not allowed any new lines in years, the generating plants that burned #5 crude are now burning nat gas and the infrastructure is not able to handle an extended cold swing.

[cbrick]

yep there is no way the idiot in charge can influence the cost of fuels.

Idiot in charge? You give him far too much credit.

Rick

[sparky45]

Talked to my brother in the KCMO area this morning. His Propane supplier is retailing @ close to $5/gal.

[cbrick]

From the man's own mouth, his plan has been for "electricity rates to skyrocket" as he bans coal. Bill

That's close but not quite what he said in a 2008 campaign speech.

Looking straight into a TV camera he said:

(Direct quote of obummer) By necessity your "ENERGY" rates will have to skyrocket.

Heard it myself in a live broadcast and the entire news media did ignore it completely. Even Fox News barely gave it lip service. Nobody asked him "by what necessity"? or "by who's necessity"? or even "why would that be necessary"?

Guess what folks . . . Your energy rates are skyrocketing.

Energy isn't just what heats your house or goes in your gas tank, it's EVERYTHING from turning on the lights, growing your food and everything else in your life from the clothes you wear and anything that's manufactured and transported to or for you.

Why? Simple, the more your concentrating on trying to survive the less attention your paying to what is happening to your freedoms. ALL of your freedoms across the board.

Rick

[mold maker]

The home I am in was built by my Dad over 74 years ago. There was a wood/coal fire kitchen stove and a fireplace. When I was about 5, Dad and I installed a Montgomery Ward coal/wood fired furnace. About the time I went off to school, Dad installed an oil fired hot water boiler. After replacing the boiler once and the second reaching it's last legs, I put in a Nat Gas tankless water for heat and another for hot water. Each transition was an effort to get better heat with less expense or labor.
Well I'm back to burning wood in the old Montgomery Ward furnace, to help with the expensive gas bill.
You would think that in my 72 years, the latest technology would have improved over what was the most common in the 50s. The sq ft of the home is more than double and it is mostly insulated. That old furnace is able to keep up with the ten degree temps. We have warm floors and a heated basement, that the 6 grand modern heating system just couldn't provide, and it's cheaper too.

[MtGun44]

MT Gianni'd points are very good. Many times, short term shortages are
the cost of short term price increases, and we will have to wait to see
how quickly the supply of propane bounces back so that the prices
can moderate. The long term supply issue is questionable, with a
lot of pressure being brought to prevent more supply from coming to
market. I had bought a large, multi-year quantity of propane a few years
ago at about $1.69, IIRC, and finally ran thru it this fall. I filled my
tank a month ago for a bit under $3, I forget exactly. Hoping to get
a better price in the spring or summer and again buy a bunch ahead
if the price is good.

MT Gianni ended his excellent post with:
"the infrastructure is not able to handle an extended cold swing"

this is largely because it is darned near impossible to build a new pipeline for anything related to
energy or to build a new refinery. I think I read that the last new refinery in the USA was built
40 years ago, environazis have made it essentially impossible to get permits to build a new
one since then. Someone in the industry please correct this if needed, I have not looked up
a source on this one in the last 10 years, so it many be incorrect.

All carefully planned to make oil, gas, propane and electricity from them MASSIVELY more
expensive - as the President said himself.

The underlying reason is that wind, solar and such are not economically competitive, so nobody
wants them. Solution? Make all the conventional fossil fuel sources a lot more expensive
by preventing leasing in the Gulf, failing to give drilling permits on existing leases, stopping
the pipeline from Canada, shutting down coal fired power plants, prevention new refineries
from being built, and trying their darndest to stop fracking, and many other things.

All part of a plan, none of it is accidental. By the way - do you know who is funding most of
the anti-fracking efforts? The middle easter oil barons. They don't want us getting to our own
oil and gas and lowering the amount we buy from them.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/saudi-billionaire-prince-fracking-competitively-threatens-any-oil

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/anti-fracking-film-produced-abu-dhabi-oil-money

The next time someone is telling you about how bad fracking is - ask them
if they are funded by the Saudis or by Abu Dhabi?

A large part of the reason that folks like cali4088 can't wrap their minds around this is that they
get all their news from the alphabet TV talking heads on ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and PBS. These
folks are NOT reporting this - so it can't be true, right? Or maybe they have an agenda and
don't WANT you to know about it. I would encourage those that think this is all "crazy talk" to
do some research and see what they come up with. The facts are out there if you dig a bit.

A good old Democrat Senator from NY once said, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you
are not entitled to your own facts." The facts are what they are, and everyone can develop
their own opinions based on those facts. No need at all for any acrimony, just a discussion
amongst friends about an issue which directly affects the pocketbooks of many of us - me
included.

I have given up on the alphabet networks and spend time on the web looking for information from
different sources. A lot of good news still comes out of the UK if you ignore BBC, which is just
like MSNBC, only with an accent. I also ask subject matter experts about larger and longer
term trends, just trying to understand the world when the old news sources are not doing their
jobs.

Bill

[Superfly]

3.05 cash in grygla mn over 200 gallons

[Black Powder Bill]

$2.05 here in November. But the past 2 weeks they have not delivered . I called 2x and now we are at 12% today. Thursday I was told they are 7 to 10 days out on delivery. I mentioned what happen to the call I made last week when I was at 25%? Why aren't you delivering every 45 days give or take like you use to?
His reply: I'll tell them you're at 15%

20# tank is closer to $4.00 per gallon.

Over on the REZ $2.00 and change

Heating propane is not the industry driver. Propane is used in plastics manufacturing. Last year when my delivers stop coming, I was told they didn't know if another delivery was going to come this way since the pipeline was switched over to butane. Next house I'll have a 1,000 gallon tank or maybe 2 or 3 500 gallon tanks. AND a coal stove.

[geargnasher]

I read Atlas Shrugged the first time when I was eleven, and have understood exactly what has been happening and why ever since. BTW, that book was written by a woman who survived the Russian Revolution. Some of you would do well to research history instead of pretending that it is not repeating itself right now, in our country. There is evil running amok and destroying our country, and it's name isn't "CO2 emissions".

Gear

[Zymurgy50]

Here in southwest Michigan we use less than 400 gallons of propane a year, water heater, stove and furnace are all propane, however we heat with a woodstove. My furnace has not used a single ounce of propane in the last 6 years!!!!! We have the gas company fill us in May or June, usually get the best prices at that time of the year. My wife was talking with a few of her friends, one just paid $4.50/gal, and was limited to 100 gallons. She will be needing more in just about 3 weeks, I hope the price settles down before then.

[MaryB]

That is why I went to pellet burning. I can handle a 40 pound bag of pellets a day, maybe 2 bags on really cold days. Buy by the pallet, have the coop unload it into my storage for me with their forklift for $20


Their ain't no doubt, this winter is one to remember, especially for me ( my first year drawing my rocking chair money) and I switched from wood-fuel oil to propane.

Sold my log splitter, but still have my wood furnace, can't keep up with the wood anymore, the wood was great, kept the floors warm and the basement. Spent $ 650 last year for wood, but just stacking is more than I can handle.

I cut and burned trees from my property for years , but can't do that anymore, even buying requires more energy that I can muster.

Won't be long before the missus and me will have to give it up and move to something smaller.

I hate the fact that I'm not self sufficient any more!

[Randy C]

Here in ND. there is no reason for high prices thousands of oil wells and some of them burn off 1.5 million cubic feet a day no way or place for them to ship it I paid 2.30 a gallon last week.

[trys357]

My buddy in Shirley MA just paid $2.79.
He said he was lucky to get it because of the shortage.

[Black Powder Bill]

Shortage my rear! They dealers buyers speculated and purchased short if they are claiming a shortage. My deliveries use to be every 4 to 6 weeks 100 to 140 gallons. I've not seen those guys since end of October.
With all the fracking and gas wells in production we should be swimming in propane and LNG. We'll have to remember this when the frackers come around asking for support to drill with the veiled promise of more gas at cheaper prices.
Atlas Shrugged was written by Ayn Rand

[cbrick]

Now I could be wrong, after all I was once before but propane isn't from fracking or drilling. It's a byproduct of refining gasoline.

Rick

[Dale in Louisiana]

If you want to know what is happening - here it is. This is not an accident and is
not caused by the energy companies. They are doing their darnedest to keep
power and fuels cheap, the government is doing there darnedest to make ALL
forms of energy expensive - so they can push their beloved solar, wind and other
BS schemes.

The fracking boom has opened up a huge amount of new natural gas in this country,
which lowered the price of NG and propane, which is pulled out of NG. This huge extra
supply of fracked NG lowered the price of NG and propane, good news.

Obama has told the EPA to write regulations to force power plants to stop using coal.
So, the power plants have been forced to switch from cheap coal to expensive NG and because
they use HUGE amounts of NG, they are causing a shortage, which drives up the price of
NG. Guess what, this also drives up the price of propane and causes a shortage.

So - the current folks in the EPA are both trying their darnest to stop fracking to stop
there from being completion to expensive wind, solar and other silly schemes AND
shutting down the one fuel that we have more of than the rest of the planet - coal,
and force the power plants to either shut down or switch to NG.

Wait until you get your electric bills! NG power is a lot more expensive that coal
power.

Thank the EPA, the Dept of Energy and the President.

Write your Congressman and Senator to get the EPA off the back of
coal. This War on Coal is also a war on all the rest of the power sources
since there is only so much and if you want your lights on, they need
something to power the plants if the feds say that they can't use coal.

Oh, yes - I predict that the price of coal will drop and the Chinese will start
buying all our coal. SO - your high electricity and gas and propane costs
will be indirectly subsidizing the Chinese to have cheaper electricity AND
the COAL WILL BE BURNED. Thank you government.

Bill

All true.

I work in the natural gas biz. The employer started out heavy in the intrastate pipeline biz and has several mid-stream plants that extract the heavy stuff from the gas streams as they come out of the ground. They're building (or almost finished) another plant.

BTW, natural gas prices climbed a big chunk under Al Gore's Polar Vortex. I spent a bad couple of days trying to get another 3000 horsepower of compression going at one of my stations because we're shoving gas north to you Yankees as fast as we can.

dale in Louisiana

[WilliamDahl]

Here's what looks to be a useful calculator for comparing the prices of the various heating energy choices:

http://woodpellets4me.com/pellets-calculator.html

Kind of makes me glad that I have natural gas to my house. Apparently half the cost of heating (or smelting wheelweights) than propane.

[Iowa Fox]

Dale, what are you using to get that kind of HP-3600 Cats or MAK engines?

[Adk Mike]

I work in the propane industry. It is no fun what we're going through. Every call to my office folks are upset or mad. Poor people are struggling to heat their Homes. The distribution system will not keep up with demand. Along with staffing trucks etc that played to mild winters. I could see this coming for years and years. Proof my personal home needs a 500 tank. I have had a 1000 tank knowing this would happen. My advice ? Simple pre buy in the summer even if it seems high. Have the largest storage at home you can. Just like putting wood up. You need to be ready for this. I see more ahead with the way things are. Mike

[Dale in Louisiana]

Dale, what are you using to get that kind of HP-3600 Cats or MAK engines?

These are Cooper-Bessemer LSV's I work on twenty-six stations including two offshore platforms in Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, Arkansas and Tennessee. We have a lot of 'big iron' out there, mostly reciprocating engines, a few gas turbines and a few electrics. Me being the electrical guy, I like my electrics. I have three, a 7,000 and two 9,000's, and I've installed some 15 and 22,500 horse electrics.

dale in Louisiana
(sometimes. this week it was Mississippi)

[rockrat]

Propane is stripped from natural gas production.

[Iowa Fox]

I think propane is produced partly from the processing of natural gas and partly from the refining of crude for gasoline. Maybe Dale has a better feeling for it since he works in that industry.

[Iowa Fox]

Here is an interesting article with a Wisconsin dealer mentioning exports doubling in June.

http://www.wiscnews.com/portagedailyregister/news/article_e8351d25-e05f-57c6-a355-670b9d16fdc4.html

[dragon813gt]

I think propane is produced partly from the processing of natural gas and partly from the refining of crude for gasoline.

It is produced both ways. W/ all the fracking there should be no shortage. But I guess there is no place to store it and no way to deliver it. It seems that our entire energy infrastructure is extremely fragile and ready to collapse at any moment. I can't wait :banghead:

[MT Gianni]

Here in ND. there is no reason for high prices thousands of oil wells and some of them burn off 1.5 million cubic feet a day no way or place for them to ship it I paid 2.30 a gallon last week.

Randy. some of those are natural gas and some of those are gasses so volatile they ignite when they hit the atmosphere.

[MtGun44]

LOTS of stuff going on in this market. Producers doing what they can to
get more out of the ground, lots of folks trying to stop them - just saw
"Bill Nye, the science guy" on Stossel BS his fool head off about global
warming. He was still selling the totally debunked fake "hockey stick
graph" that got Michael Mann in trouble for faking data. In any case,
there are people that believe ferverently that they need to do everything
possible to stop all production and burning of hydrocarbons. Stossel isn't
buying the manmade global warming fairy tale.

In the middle of this - there is more; recently heard that there has been
added demand for US LP gas overseas.

We are competing with everybody else in the world for this stuff.

Since our price has been low, there is an increase in exporting. If a wholesaler can
sell it here for $2 or ship it overseas for $3, what do you think will happen? I wish
that economics worked differently, but the seller will always seek the highest price
he can get, as the buyer will always seek the lowest price he can get.

Got my bill today for 350 gal fill up last week. $2.10/gallon - glad I got it then.

Bill

[cali4088]

LOTS of stuff going on in this market. Producers doing what they can to
get more out of the ground, lots of folks trying to stop them - just saw
"Bill Nye, the science guy" on Stossel BS his fool head off about global
warming. He was still selling the totally debunked fake "hockey stick
graph" that got Michael Mann in trouble for faking data. In any case,
there are people that believe ferverently that they need to do everything
possible to stop all production and burning of hydrocarbons. Stossel isn't
buying the manmade global warming fairy tale.

In the middle of this - there is more; recently heard that there has been
added demand for US LP gas overseas.

We are competing with everybody else in the world for this stuff.

Since our price has been low, there is an increase in exporting. If a wholesaler can
sell it here for $2 or ship it overseas for $3, what do you think will happen? I wish
that economics worked differently, but the seller will always seek the highest price
he can get, as the buyer will always seek the lowest price he can get.

Got my bill today for 350 gal fill up last week. $2.10/gallon - glad I got it then.

Bill

Europe is trying to get away from their reliance on Russia oil and Gas. Communist Russia has the worlds largest "state" owned natural gas "company", however, a natural gas BOOM in the United States the past decade or so has made the United States the largest Natural gas "producing nation", and on track to be that way for the foreseeable future. Continue to see an increase in natural gas cost in the USA for sometime and many markets warm up to USA reliance and stability in the LP field. Just dont see how come you think global warming is a fake. Of course people overblow it, but it is apparent. Seas rising, ice melting. once your landlocked ice goes in the ocean, it makes the water level rise. They have photos that show this happening for decades now and measurements. Do you know the devastation that would happen if the ocean was just 2 feet higher? How come Stossel never told you this? if you dont believe in Global warming the only logical explanation that would make sense is that you dont believe man has an impact on the environment, you believe God heals the earth and it all becomes re-newed every so often.

[btroj]

If the ocean was 2 feet higher it would be devastating- all the idiots in California would move east and those of use east of the Rockies would be doomed!

Is the climate changing? Who knows for sure. It certainly has in the past. Is it due to man? Who knows.

What I do know is that many of the proposals part forth by global warming "experts" rely heavily on energy sources that aren't efficient, are horribly expensive, and will never keep up with demand. What will happen if we follow these "experts" is a collapse of the global economy.

I find it interesting that Californians are so concerned with global warming yet they can't seem to get by without the very electricity and gasoline that they blame. How many in CA forgot the AC in the summer? How many use public transportation? How many drive a huge SUV hundreds of miles to attend an environmental rally yet fail to understand that they just did what they rail against others for doing?

I don't trust the "science" behind global warming at all. Too much has been shown to be bunk, manipulated data designed to achieve a political goal. Global warming "science" is much less about the climate and far more about global control of the populace. Manipulating the economy allows the government to better control the masses. Environmental concerns are an excellent way to decree emergency status giving far too much power to the government because the sheeple buy Into the BS.

[dragon813gt]

We don't know for a fact that we have caused the warming trend. The earth has natural cycles of warming and cooling. Do I think we caused it completely, no. Do I think we are contributing to it in some ways, absolutely. And while the Greenland shelf was melting along its entire surface area this past summer the Antarctic shelf is producing more ice then ever. Man can not possibly understand how what we put into the atmosphere effects the entire world. It's just to big and we just don't know.

[jcwit]

Check with Al Gore, he knows.

[Black Powder Bill]

Now I could be wrong, after all I was once before but propane isn't from fracking or drilling. It's a byproduct of refining gasoline.

Rick
No you are correct it is, from both gasoline and natural gas production. I wasn't so lazy to look at the equipment
I'd convert my appliances over to LNG.

But still with all the natural gas available what's the story? IMO dealers did not purchase enough fuel to get by the winter. This has happened to me 3 years running. The very least the dealer could have sent a post card stating the problem.

Here is the Wiki skinny:
Propane is produced as a by-product of two other processes, natural gas processing and petroleum refining. The processing of natural gas involves removal of butane, propane, and large amounts of ethane from the raw gas, in order to prevent condensation of these volatiles in natural gas pipelines. Additionally, oil refineries produce some propane as a by-product of cracking petroleum into gasoline or heating oil. The supply of propane cannot easily be adjusted to meet increased demand, because of the by-product nature of propane production. About 90% of U.S. propane is domestically produced.[citation needed] The United States imports about 10% of the propane consumed each year, with about 70% of that coming from Canada via pipeline and rail. The remaining 30% of imported propane comes to the United States from other sources via ocean transport.

After it is produced, North American propane is stored in huge salt caverns. Examples of these are Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta; Mont Belvieu, Texas and Conway, Kansas. These salt caverns were hollowed out in the 1940s,[8] and they can store 80,000,000 barrels (13,000,000 m3) or more of propane. When the propane is needed, much of it is shipped by pipelines to other areas of the United States. Propane is also shipped by truck, ship, barge, and railway to many U.S. areas.[9]

Properties and reactions[edit]

[cbrick]

Just dont see how come you think global warming is a fake. Of course people overblow it, but it is apparent. Seas rising, ice melting. once your landlocked ice goes in the ocean, it makes the water level rise. They have photos that show this happening for decades now and measurements.

Because it is fake that's why. Legitimate science has completely debunked man caused global warming repeatedly but the politically motivated news will not report it and the Kool-Aid drinkers devour the political absurdity.

Ice melting? Seas rising? More of the political BS to keep the Kool-Aid drinkers on board and inline. Legitimate science has proven via satellite photos that the ice caps both on top and bottom have been increasing over the past 10 years. Bet you didn't read about that in the comrade news though.

Is the climate changing? Yes, of course it is. Again using legitimate science and not political science the climate has never been stable at any time in the history of the planet. Never! Those that wish to have total and complete control over the population are attempting to use that to have that control. Those that don't believe in man made global warming (the majority by the way) are those that can actually think for themselves and not simply drink up the propaganda.

Rick

[cali4088]

Because it is fake that's why. Legitimate science has completely debunked man caused global warming repeatedly but the politically motivated news will not report it and the Kool-Aid drinkers devour the political absurdity.

Ice melting? Seas rising? More of the political BS to keep the Kool-Aid drinkers on board and inline. Legitimate science has proven via satellite photos that the ice caps both on top and bottom have been increasing over the past 10 years. Bet you didn't read about that in the comrade news though.

Is the climate changing? Yes, of course it is. Again using legitimate science and not political science the climate has never been stable at any time in the history of the planet. Never! Those that wish to have total and complete control over the population are attempting to use that to have that control. Those that don't believe in man made global warming (the majority by the way) are those that can actually think for themselves and not simply drink up the propaganda.

Rick

LOL, dude, you're the only person sipping the koolaid. You didnt say one thing that made sense or is backed up by science. All I heard was , legitimate science, the majority... You cannot provide ONE time lapse video of EXTENDING ice caps. They have been melting for a while and they have time lapses of it Go ask Nasa about your extended Ice caps. They'll laugh you out the room. Your comment was 100% false, and im thinking you made it up all on the spot. Its pretty easy to understand. Your "legitimate" science claim ='s More koolaid.


And the biggest whopper of them all. The "majority" doesn't believe in global warming. EVERY poll says other wise. But, Maybe the polls are rigged....LOL

[cbrick]

Have it your way, it'll make you feel all warm & fuzzy. Haven't met a liberal yet that could respond with anything other than insults in an attempt to belittle anyone that doesn't tow the line.

Rick

[sparky45]

Cali; you're a bit short on "evidence" yourself. Care to cite YOUR scientific data? Didn't think so, since you get most of your "data" from CNN and MSMBC.
Talk about a Whopper!
Sparky

[cali4088]

We don't know for a fact that we have caused the warming trend. The earth has natural cycles of warming and cooling. Do I think we caused it completely, no. Do I think we are contributing to it in some ways, absolutely. And while the Greenland shelf was melting along its entire surface area this past summer the Antarctic shelf is producing more ice then ever. Man can not possibly understand how what we put into the atmosphere effects the entire world. It's just to big and we just don't know.

I can agree with this to a certain degree. Just casting it off as some lie and legitimate science doesn't agree is just throwing out blatant lies. At least your commet had some moderation in it. It is true we dont know the extent of it, however, that ice extension in the winter time was nature basically telling us we cant predict everything. And you are absolutely right about the polar ice cap "producing" more, but not more than ever, and in time lapse videos it shows this, but what happens that summer is that it all melts away and then a little more than normal each year. Its a slow but steady decrease.

[cali4088]

Cali; you're a bit short on "evidence" yourself. Care to cite YOUR scientific data? Didn't think so, since you get most of your "data" from CNN and MSMBC.
Talk about a Whopper!
Sparky

Thanks for the laugh and your logical fallacy. I watch C-Span. So what was with your CNN and MSNBC clown of a comment? Is that your comeback, or better yet, your intro when talking to someone? I said look at a time lapse of the polar caps. Do you have the slightest CLUE as to what a time lapse is? Its a VIDEO. Learn what a video is and how its used as EVIDENCE, especially in a court setting. Lets here your whopper of a comeback little spark/flicker

[cali4088]

Have it your way, it'll make you feel all warm & fuzzy. Haven't met a liberal yet that could respond with anything other than insults in an attempt to belittle anyone that doesn't tow the line.

Rick

I'm sorry but isnt it you who keeps commenting on other post of mine with one word statements? Especially when I have never engaged in a conversation with you. Your whole comment was an insult to begin with. When I come back at you with the same intensity you came at me with, you run with your tail between your legs. Sounds like you're more liberal than more.

[cbrick]

Thanks for the laugh and your logical fallacy. I watch C-Span. So what was with your CNN and MSNBC clown of a comment? Is that your comeback, or better yet, your intro when talking to someone? I said look at a time lapse of the polar caps. Do you have the slightest CLUE as to what a time lapse is? Its a VIDEO. Learn what a video is and how its used as EVIDENCE, especially in a court setting. Lets here your whopper of a comeback little spark/flicker

hehe, thanks for so clearly proving my point. The only leg a liberal has to stand on is insulting those that don't tow the line. Simply must belittle them to make the liberal point of view sound intelligent.

Ok, your turn . . . Insult me. Again.

Rick

[cali4088]

hehe, thanks for so clearly proving my point. The only leg a liberal has to stand on is insulting those that don't tow the line. Simply must belittle them to make the liberal point of view sound intelligent.

Ok, your turn . . . Insult me. Again.

Rick
Seriously, maybe thinking isnt your strong point, Many conservatives believe in global warming as well, they just dont believe in the huge amount of hype that goes along with it. I think like them. YOU on the other hand dont believe in any of it. You are not the majority, "legitimate" scientist dont think like you. You can try all you want but YOU, and the small sliver called the "far"right are a LARGE MINORITY on this subject, not the other way around. Don't blame it on the liberals, the moderates, the R.I.N.O, the establishment, CNN, MSNBC . Your whole comment is an insult, not only to me but any other person that can think clearly. Ive wasted enough time in this thread. Maybe people believe it but to a certain degree. I can agree with them to a point. Cant agree with you though. You want evidence, go look up polar ice cap melt time lapse. Don't ask for evidence but provide none except a rant and getting your feelings hurt over the subject.

[cbrick]

For anyone trying to figure out what cali was referring to in post #105, it was this in the cast boolits forum. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?228122-lead-ingots


I have a hunch that the ingots were smelted with the zinc not removed. Is there a way to confirm this?


Melt them, get the temperature really high, DO NOT SCOOP SCUM YET, FLUX FIRST, then clean. Lower temp and pour more ingots or cast. Problem solved.

To which I posted . . .


Huh? Rick

I guess that must have been an insult.

Maybe now we can return to the price of propane.

Rick

[cbrick]

Seriously, maybe thinking isnt your strong point, Your whole comment is an insult, not only to me but any other person that can think clearly. Don't ask for evidence but provide none except a rant and getting your feelings hurt over the subject.


hehe, thanks for so clearly proving my point. The only leg a liberal has to stand on is insulting those that don't tow the line. Simply must belittle them to make the liberal point of view sound intelligent. Rick

See? Every time, nothing but insults.

Feelings hurt? Oh no, you don't understand that either. Listening to or reading the insults from liberals is more fun than the comedy channel.

Rick

[cali4088]

For anyone trying to figure out what cali was referring to in post #105, it was this in the cast boolits forum. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?228122-lead-ingots





To which I posted . . .



I guess that must have been an insult.

Maybe now we can return to the price of propane.

Rick

I dont think anyone does but it was the response right after that showed your intent "The part I didn't get is the following. Poor advice when the thread is about keeping zinc out of the melt. "

What you didn't get, and its apparent, was that the guy didn't have zinc in his lead, he most likely had much antimony in it since he had an ingot that was dull and frosty. You would of known that if you had paid a little attention in the first place before saying "huh"

[cali4088]

See? Every time, nothing but insults.

Feelings hurt? Oh no, you don't understand that either. Listening to or reading the insults from liberals is more fun than the comedy channel.

Rick

I'm more interested in you backing up your statements. Show us where these "legitimate" scientist are and some polls on how the majority thinks global warming is a hoax. Lets stick to that. Show me where the polar ice caps have been expanding for decades. Is it that hard.....?

[cbrick]

Take your own advice and look at the satellite photos. I did. And I didn't say "decade", I said 20 years.

Now come back with more insults.

Rick

[cali4088]

See? Every time, nothing but insults.

Feelings hurt? Oh no, you don't understand that either. Listening to or reading the insults from liberals is more fun than the comedy channel.

Rick


An Answer to some, is an excuse to others, but nevertheless an answer still.
The Truth to some, is an Insult to others, but nevertheless the Truth still.
-David Snider

[cali4088]

Take your own advice and look at the satellite photos. I did. And I didn't say "decade", I said 20 years.

Now come back with more insults.

Rick

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/thick-melt.html

stop talking and listen for once. scroll the middle part of the picture to see different dates This provides 12 years past your 20 years. This is directly from NASA.

[jmort]

Liberal religion consists first and foremost of lies and then its core tenants of abortion, atheism destroying the Second Amendment, anthropomorphic global warming, and socialism/communism. The earth was far, far warmer when the Viking inhabited Greenland and England exported wine. The earth was a far better place as warmer is better. If anything, we are entering another ice age. Liberals should not be allowed to own firearms.

[jmort]

Another liberal lie, if most scientists believe something then it is true. The minority group of denier scientists is every bit as intelligent as the proven liar believer/liar scientists who profit off man-made global warming. It is in their to interest to lie to get money, that is why they have been caught lying so often, as facts are stubborn things. Liars who lie to get grant money and fit into the liars club. Liberals/communists hate reality and you can't go to liberal parties if you don't believe in all of it. Liberals should not be allowed to own guns.

[cali4088]

Liberal religion consists first and foremost of lies and then its core tenants of abortion, atheism destroying the Second Amendment, anthropomorphic global warming, and socialism/communism. The earth was far, far warmer when the Viking inhabited Greenland and England exported wine. The earth was a far better place as warmer is better. If anything, we are entering another ice age. Liberals should not be allowed to own firearms.

Do you know what happens when the globe warms too much? It turns into another ice age. We know that because science tells us that. But hey, the last ice age started around 110,000 years ago. But here you are talking about an ice age and atheism? The earth is only 6,000 years old or is it? We are accelerating the process. An ICE AGE in the 21st century is the last thing you want to happen.

[Love Life]

Am I to late to throw down?

[jmort]

It is not a question of what I want, it is a question of reality. Based on sun activity, or lack thereof, we are in/entering a Maunder Minimum.
No LoveLife, crack-on.

[Moonman]

Cali4088,

40 years is ZIP in GEOLOGIC TIME.

Weather varies, pray for NO HUGE VOLCANOS,

Mother Nature does her own thing,

WHEN EVER SHE CHOOSES.

[Moonman]

Cali4088,

40 years is ZIP in GEOLOGIC TIME.

Weather varies, pray for NO HUGE VOLCANOS,

Mother Nature does her own thing,

WHEN EVER SHE CHOOSES.

[Uncle R.]

Am I to late to throw down?

Oh no - please do.
I thought about posting in this thread, but I confess that sometimes I get discouraged from what feels like constantly swimming upstream against a heavy current of stupidity. Glad to see you're willing to jump in - I'll just rest here on the bank for awhile.
<
Uncle R.
:popcorn:

[cali4088]

Cali4088,

40 years is ZIP in GEOLOGIC TIME.

Weather varies, pray for NO HUGE VOLCANOS,

Mother Nature does her own thing,

WHEN EVER SHE CHOOSES.

I understand that as I come to see that as basic knowledge. 34 years was referenced as part of an argument for polar ice caps melting. The conversation is about man made effects on the environment and whether man has the ability to speed up a natural environmental process.

[cali4088]

Am I to late to throw down?

All opinions wanted! Right now its me vs everyone else and all newcomers...lol...

[DRNurse1]

??? I grew up in a farming community and as a Boy Scout. We butchered and dried or canned our meat and produce when it was available and inexpensive. We had enough fuel oil storage to last a season. We cut wood all summer and burned it all winter.

What happened to relying on your own-self and being prepared? Those few basic things the city folks found them selves without (food, clothing, shelter) during [name the recent natural disaster] should have been your first clue that you need to start (if you have not already) getting prepared.

No disrespect to the SHTF prepping gang intended, but this is not a new thing: "Be Prepared...for any little thing" was the Scouting watchword over 100 years ago!

[cali4088]

It is not a question of what I want, it is a question of reality. Based on sun activity, or lack thereof, we are in/entering a Maunder Minimum.
No LoveLife, crack-on.

Have you seen a chart on a Maunder Minimum for the past 400 years? It doesn't support your theory.

[Black Powder Bill]

Just paid $82.00 for 23.6 gallons to fill up a 100lb tank.

[Roosters]

Iowa Fox don’t seem to be many propane prices in this but a man sure could get educated reading it . Covers about everything except how deep the mud is down next to the creek.

I get my propane from a truck stop, don’t know where they get it. Didn’t see the first politician. Yesterday it was $2.89 per gal. and that was down from $2.99 last September. And my part of the globe (Virginia) has been unnecessarily cold lately.... :popcorn:

[markshere2]

When I bought this place, there was a 1000 gal rental propane tank on it.
I was stuck paying what THAT company was charging.

When I was able, I bought a 1500 gallon tank of my very own.
Now I dicker with 2 or 3 suppliers and what I buy in the summer lasts all winter with a comfortable margin left over.

New Hi efficiency furnace helped a lot, too.


Global warming was NEVER attributable to human activity.

Measurable warming occurred from the 80s through 98, then stopped.

Its another progressive hoax pushed to control our " bad" behavior, like use of fossil fuels or turning our heaters / air conditioners to 72 degrees.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Because it is fake that's why. Legitimate science has completely debunked man caused global warming repeatedly but the politically motivated news will not report it and the Kool-Aid drinkers devour the political absurdity.

Ice melting? Seas rising? More of the political BS to keep the Kool-Aid drinkers on board and inline. Legitimate science has proven via satellite photos that the ice caps both on top and bottom have been increasing over the past 10 years. Bet you didn't read about that in the comrade news though.

Is the climate changing? Yes, of course it is. Again using legitimate science and not political science the climate has never been stable at any time in the history of the planet. Never! Those that wish to have total and complete control over the population are attempting to use that to have that control. Those that don't believe in man made global warming (the majority by the way) are those that can actually think for themselves and not simply drink up the propaganda.

Rick


LOL, dude, you're the only person sipping the koolaid. You didnt say one thing that made sense or is backed up by science. All I heard was , legitimate science, the majority... You cannot provide ONE time lapse video of EXTENDING ice caps. They have been melting for a while and they have time lapses of it Go ask Nasa about your extended Ice caps. They'll laugh you out the room. Your comment was 100% false, and im thinking you made it up all on the spot. Its pretty easy to understand. Your "legitimate" science claim ='s More koolaid.


And the biggest whopper of them all. The "majority" doesn't believe in global warming. EVERY poll says other wise. But, Maybe the polls are rigged....LOL

cali,
Are these 31,000 scientists sipping the koolaid ?
http://www.aim.org/briefing/31000-signatures-prove-no-consensus-about-global-warming/

Ice caps ? you want to see photo's of Ice caps ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415191/And-global-COOLING-Return-Arctic-ice-cap-grows-29-year.html
More from the dailymail,

PUBLISHED: 18:37 EST, 7 September 2013 :

>533,000 more square miles of ocean covered with ice than in 2012

>BBC reported in 2007 global warming would leave Arctic ice-free in summer by 2013

>Publication of UN climate change report suggesting global warming caused by humans pushed back to later this month


...The Northwest Passage from the Atlantic to the Pacific has remained blocked by pack-ice all year. More than 20 yachts that had planned to sail it have been left ice-bound and a cruise ship attempting the route was forced to turn back.
Some eminent scientists now believe the world is heading for a period of cooling that will not end until the middle of this century – a process that would expose computer forecasts of imminent catastrophic warming as dangerously misleading.
The disclosure comes 11 months after The Mail on Sunday triggered intense political and scientific debate by revealing that global warming has ‘paused’ since the beginning of 1997 – an event that the computer models used by climate experts failed to predict.
In March, this newspaper further revealed that temperatures are about to drop below the level that the models forecast with ‘90 per cent certainty’.
The pause – which has now been accepted as real by every major climate research centre – is important, because the models’ predictions of ever-increasing global temperatures have made many of the world’s economies divert billions of pounds into ‘green’ measures to counter climate change.


cali,
you say "And the biggest whopper of them all. The "majority" doesn't believe in global warming." Well, you are just wrong, that is NOT a whopper.

[cbrick]

Now JonB your just being silly. You know perfectly well that you cannot consider all data, only data that conforms with the political agenda is allowed and NOTHING else will be considered.

You obviously need to get your mind right because if facts get in the way the political agenda cannot be met. Do we need to send you off for re-training? Now shut up, sit down and drink your Kool-Aid. :mrgreen:

Ya gotta admit, liberals can be a lot of fun. They all use the exact same tactic, insult and belittle anyone that is not in complete lock step with the Kool-Aid, that way they see those people as morons and themselves of course as smart and in the know because those others are stupid. Go back and re-read every one of cali's posts, every one is a pitiful attempt to belittle and he of course is the all knowing and wise California liberal. No wonder that states in the toilet. Yep, lot's of fun.

Rick

[btroj]

I don't think the climate change "experts" will be swayed by any amount of data. They have an agenda and by God they will see it thru!

They don't drink the Kool-aid, they have an IV drip

[Randy C]

Randy. some of those are natural gas and some of those are gasses so volatile they ignite when they hit the atmosphere.

Mt Gianni . 90 percent of the crude oil I haul is high in H2s I have a LACT on my truck, I don't have to work the tank on wells that are stupid dangerous. some are as high as 25,000 parts per million. This cant be good for our atmosphere.

[WILDEBILL308]

Global warming? Ask that group of liberal "scientist" that got stuck in the nonexistent ice pack and had to be rescued by helicopter because the icebreaker couldn’t get through the icepack. They were up there to promote their lame claims about global warming and the disappearing ice cap.
Bill

[cali4088]

Now JonB your just being silly. You know perfectly well that you cannot consider all data, only data that conforms with the political agenda is allowed and NOTHING else will be considered.

You obviously need to get your mind right because if facts get in the way the political agenda cannot be met. Do we need to send you off for re-training? Now shut up, sit down and drink your Kool-Aid. :mrgreen:

Ya gotta admit, liberals can be a lot of fun. They all use the exact same tactic, insult and belittle anyone that is not in complete lock step with the Kool-Aid, that way they see those people as morons and themselves of course as smart and in the know because those others are stupid. Go back and re-read every one of cali's posts, every one is a pitiful attempt to belittle and he of course is the all knowing and wise California liberal. No wonder that states in the toilet. Yep, lot's of fun.

Rick

Hey at least that guy did a little research, you couldn't do either except complain and some insults and feelings being hurt. From the one liners, to the logical fallicies, this is the most you've wrote all day which means you're feeling better now. I see you're still complaining about my hurtful words spoken into your ears. Like I said before, its not a liberal thing, its mostly all you and your failure to read correctly.

[jmort]

No for sure it is a liberal thing. I love members here less than one month trolling.

[cali4088]

No for sure it is a liberal thing. I love members here less than one month trolling.

Im just staing my opinion. Are the other guys trolling too? Ooh no, they are your buddies. Right i Get it. Opinions not allowed here because it differs from yours. Thanks for the freedom of speech. Ive actually been here for more than a month as well, thanks for noticing........

[waksupi]

Im just staing my opinion. Are the other guys trolling too? Ooh no, they are your buddies. Right i Get it. Opinions not allowed here because it differs from yours. Thanks for the freedom of speech. Ive actually been here for more than a month as well, thanks for noticing........

No doubt you are trolling, and it is not the first time you have been brought to the attention of the staff. I foresee a short stay for you.

[tall grass]

cali4088

So the oceans have risen two feet? In how many hundred years? Look up the data, it's on the web.

The oceans have risen 10 inches in the last 100 years and has been rising since the Ice Age. That is a very good indicator for how much increase in global temperature.

[btroj]

Imagine that, the earth is constantly changing. Who would have thunk it?

In geologic terms even the entire known history is a mere blink.

[waksupi]

cali4088

So the oceans have risen two feet? In how many hundred years? Look up the data, it's on the web.

The oceans have risen 10 inches in the last 100 years and has been rising since the Ice Age. That is a very good indicator for how much increase in global temperature.

He won't be replying for awhile. Collected three infractions in his short time here. Most of you guys have never got one, in years of membership. Go figure.

[btroj]

Does that make us smart?

[Sweetpea]

No, we just have our heads stuck somewhere that the libtard agenda can't seem to penetrate...

[cbrick]

There goes comedy central, oh well, he wasn't the first & no doubt another will come along.

Rick

[WilliamDahl]

I understand that as I come to see that as basic knowledge. 34 years was referenced as part of an argument for polar ice caps melting. The conversation is about man made effects on the environment and whether man has the ability to speed up a natural environmental process.

The Sun's output fluctuates. The Earth has periods of higher volcanic activity. The tectonic plates rise and fall. Places that were once sea floor are now mountain areas or even deserts. I suspect that there are just too many variables in this system to be able to just attribute it to the influence of man. During the Late Cretaceous period, there were no polar ice caps at all.

Want to decrease the warming of the Earth? Simple, just install a really large set of mini-blinds between the Earth and the Sun. Reduce the solar input and the Earth could be as cold as Mars (or maybe even colder).

[MaryB]

Just today I saw a report that the temperature data they are using has been fudged to show a 2 degree rise when in fact there has been none. http://www.principia-scientific.org/breaking-new-climate-data-rigging-scandal-rocks-us-government.html

[KCSO]

Over $5.00 here and still going up. Pat of the shortage according to our supplier is that they are having to meet their overseas contracts right now too.

[dragon813gt]

The US imports 10% of the propane it uses. Why are we exporting any if we have to import some? I know the reasons why. But it just doesn't make sense from a national standpoint to export any if you have to import some to meet the demands here.

[Bad Water Bill]

The folks on the OPTIONS market are making a fortune right now.

Bought it around $1.00 and now selling around $4.50 and never saw or smelled a thing.

[Wis. Tom]

It's those hoarders, filling up those 1000 gallon tanks. Well that's what 22LR was. LOL What's next, food? Has our little Hitler even said a word about this, or is he too busy. Why was the Cochin pipeline shut down in Dec.? Maybe we should ask the EPA, as maybe this is payback for mocking their taxing global warming.

[dragon813gt]

Has our little Hitler even said a word about this, or is he too busy.
We will find out tomorrow when he gives the State of the Union address.

[Bad Water Bill]

We will find out tomorrow when he gives the State of the Union address.

Do you really expect one word of truth to come out of his mouth?

[Iowa Fox]

busy. Why was the Cochin pipeline shut down in Dec.? Maybe we should ask the EPA, as maybe this is payback for mocking their taxing global warming.

Plus in June exports doubled because they had a surplus with no replenishment of reserves in the USA. Around here they are trying to shoulder the blame on the farmers. Me smells something fishy at the heart of this thing.

[grumman581]

It's those hoarders, filling up those 1000 gallon tanks. Well that's what 22LR was. LOL What's next, food?

Next thing you know, they'll only be allowing us to buy rice in 1 lb bags at a time.

(I buy it in 50 lb bags for around $15-20 each)

[dragon813gt]

Do you really expect one word of truth to come out of his mouth?

I didn't say anything about the truth. I doubt he will even mention it. If he mentions anything energy it will be about how we all have to shoulder the burden and pay more.

[ktw]

I don't heat with propane at home, but was talking today with one of my contractors who does. He said his tank was good for the rest of the winter but he checked with his regular supplier (Minocqua, WI) and the answer he got was they would be happy to deliver as much as he wanted but the current price was $4.99.

-ktw

[Black Powder Bill]

The folks on the OPTIONS market are making a fortune right now.

Bought it around $1.00 and now selling around $4.50 and never saw or smelled a thing.

I haven't see propane at $1.00 in over fifteen years. Here it went from .89c gal in 1995 to .99ish. Then the next in 2000 it was just under $2.00 last few years it has been between $2.05 to $2.40 ish.

I'd just like to get a delivery today so we can keep the hot water, heat and cooking going. I'll be pulling out the coleman stoves here soon.

@$4.99 per gallon I could have a wood or pellet stove installed then use a smaller tank for cooking/hot water.

New Yorkisstan western region prices
http://www.nyserda.ny.gov/Energy-Data-and-Prices-Planning-and-Policy/Energy-Prices-Data-and-Reports/Energy-Prices/Propane/Monthly-Average-Propane-Prices.aspx#western

[rockrat]

$1 is probably the refinery price, before any taxes or anything is added. Propane was $1.68 here this summer, but my sister over on the front range of Colorado, it was $1.42. The plant is closer to me than her!!

[w0fms]

Wow.. was sick all weekend and yesterday and missed all of this! ;)

I am an engineer, drive a VW Turbocharged Diesel that averages (real) 43 MPG year around.. this year probably less because of the cold... and has a horizontal loop "geothermal" heat pump.

I'm all for efficiency if it works and eventually pays back. The car took about 5 years, the heat pump 5 years. That's too long for many. I am Greener than almost all of the Greenies I know because what I do WORKS.

Having said that, the belief that humans destroyed the planet, or put in in a course of destruction in 100 years by releasing a WEAK greenhouse gas that is necessary for life on this planet is pretty absurd. Very .. well.. Narcissistic too... The claims of the hockey stick and we will turn the planet into Venus is crazy too. At worst, if we released all of it, we'd again have the amounts of CO2 that were present in the Dinosaur era. Which the planet then could support HUGE animals. What actually killed these HUGE animals, people, is an ICE AGE that we are still recovering from, not a stinking meteor hit. Or if it was a meteor hit it was the COLD that killed them off. Mammals were the small animals and as such could live in colder weather and with much less food. And they took over the colder planet.

Greenland is called Greenland why? Well, in the "medieval warm period", when it was settled it was GREEN and farmed. Until the industrial revolution happened, that time period was the best economic time in human history. Oh, and polar bears did survive that period.

What I am trying to say is that are heating up the planet SLIGHTLY in the huge geologic terms. But, the system will not run away, and it will in fact, self limit. We will run out of carbon fuels in time, and that alone will limit the system. If we heat up the planet, we will need less man made heat. We won't turn into Venus.

If we attempt to undo the Industrial Revolution, we will have famine, war (maybe nuclear) and likely do the planet and environment much more harm than having the system, including human ingenuity, self limit.

But to let the economics self limit goes against the central-control policies of both sides, doesn't it? I mean we need to be saved from ourselves. We need to kill humans to save them right?

The comment about Atlas Shrugged in the thread is so spot on. I didn't read it until I was an adult and for years I thought I had to be the only person on the planet that thought that way. Read Rand if you have not and even if you disagree you will get a dose of logic that will be good for you. She saw it happen in Russia and got out. Read We the Living if you want only a slightly fictionalized (in that the heroine doesn't successfully escape in the fictionalized book) account of her life there right before coming to America....

[jcwit]

Greenland is called Greenland why? Well, in the "medieval warm period", when it was settled it was GREEN and farmed. Until the industrial revolution happened, that time period was the best economic time in human history. Oh, and polar bears did survive that period.


Well, maybe and then maybe not! Seems to have got its name from a con artist by the name of Eric the Red.

http://ancientstandard.com/2010/12/17/how-greenland-got-its-name/

[Love Life]

I don't even remember what I was going to throw down about. Propane here was $3.60 per gallon when I bought propane in December. I have been running those radiator oil space heaters since, and my propane consumption has decreased quite a bit.

[FrankG]

Looks like the cost of cleanup of my wheel weights and cost of making my beer is gonna go up as that's all the propane that is used for by me .

In my opinion its just a greed based situation . Getting most out of the situation at hand , the Artic cold snap sweeping the country now !

I haven't noticed much increase here yet but a buddy in Ks. said it doubled in price last week .

[blackthorn]

maybe they're just finding the fair market price.

good one!!!

[MT Gianni]

Well, maybe and then maybe not! Seems to have got its name from a con artist by the name of Eric the Red.

http://ancientstandard.com/2010/12/17/how-greenland-got-its-name/

Erik the Red and Lief Erikson were living and farming there when they tried to be Real Estate brokers. Too cold to live there now.

[Iowa Fox]

I don't even remember what I was going to throw down about. Propane here was $3.60 per gallon when I bought propane in December. I have been running those radiator oil space heaters since, and my propane consumption has decreased quite a bit.

Love Life tell me a little more about those space heaters. I have two upstairs bedrooms on the west and northwest end of the house that trip my thermostats. I have hot water heat and both bedrooms are on separate zones. I have a wood stove that will keep the house comfy warm normally and not call for heat from the boiler. Other propane uses are domestic water and cooking. I asked the wife about good space heaters for those bedrooms but we let it slide the last couple years. Sixty degrees is as low as she will let me lower the thermostat in the bedrooms. If I could take the edge off in those two rooms I can just about keep the boiler from coming on in the whole house if we are home.

When my youngest son graduated from ISU he stayed in Ames as an engineer for the energy industry. He does a lot of volunteer work in his spare time and a couple of years ago he was working with the real estate industry in the area. While he was home one day he mentioned the realtors are worried about energy a couple years down the road as the biggest detriment to their business. This has always been in the back of my mind but for sure it is ringing home right now. I'm thinking about next year for those space heaters.

Anybody else with good space heater info?

[jcwit]

Erik the Red and Lief Erikson were living and farming there when they tried to be Real Estate brokers. Too cold to live there now.

Must have been a very short farming enterprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland

Only reason Eric the Red lived there was because he was exiled there. Historians think because of murder.

He named it Greenland to con people to move there.

[Bad Water Bill]

A big problem is that WE ONLY heat as high as we can afford BUT we also must pay for the 80 degree heat in the ENTITLED folks places.:evil:

[WilliamDahl]

Anybody else with good space heater info?

The oil filled space heaters are still electrically powered. The oil is just a heat transfer medium. Probably provides some thermal mass to even out the temperature fluctuations of the device also.

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=167509-47166-73368&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3468001&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=rel&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

[Iowa Fox]

A big problem is that WE ONLY heat as high as we can afford BUT we also must pay for the 80 degree heat in the ENTITLED folks places.:evil:

I've been complaining about this to my wife for years.

[Love Life]

The brand I use are Delonhgi. Model is Dragon. Pretty sweet name now that I think about it!!

They heat a room very well, and we leave them running pretty much all day. We have had them for about 4 years now, and I think my wife bought them at lowes.

They have a thermostat on them as well as 3 different settings.

[Iowa Fox]

Thanks Love Life. Are they safe running them on carpeted floors?

[Love Life]

They are safe on carpeted floors. I have run them on carpeted floors the whole time I have owned them.

[Iowa Fox]

I have been reading about the Delonghi's and customer reviews. What model number do you have. Thanks!!!

[WilliamDahl]

The brand I use are Delonhgi. Model is Dragon. Pretty sweet name now that I think about it!!

They heat a room very well, and we leave them running pretty much all day. We have had them for about 4 years now, and I think my wife bought them at lowes.

They have a thermostat on them as well as 3 different settings.

All of the electric space heaters are about the same in efficiency. You get one unit of heat out of one unit of electricity. They are for spot heating of areas in your house, not for heating the entire house. If you already have electric heating, you are not going to be saving any money by switching to the space heaters if you plan on keeping the entire house the same temperature. Their main advantage from an energy saving standpoint is keeping the couple of rooms that you are using more comfortable than the parts of the house that you do not use. In that aspect, it's kind of like shutting off the air ducts to rooms that you do not use and closing their doors so that they exchange minimal air with the rest of the house. There are electrically controlled dampers that you can install in your forced air heating system that would allow you to have different controlled heating zones throughout your house also. Electricity is usually the most expensive method that you can use to heat your house, so electric space heaters won't necessarily save you money as compared to natural gas or propane unless you are just warming up the small percentage of the house that you are actually using. Each family's usage pattern and needs will be different.

One of the things that I noticed when I was working up north a few years back, was that each 8-unit apartment complex / building where I was at had a central water heating system that provided hot water to the apartments and to baseboard radiators throughout each apartment. Down south, that sort of thing is not done -- each apartment will likely have its own furnace and hot water heater.

[6bg6ga]

Ever considered adding one of those pellet heaters to your home. People I have talked to have high praise for them.

I feel for you guys with the high cost of propane and I thought I had it bad when I got my natural gas bill of $150 for the month of my 4 year old super insulated home.

[grumman581]

I had thought, hoped or my wishful thinking that propane would be the affordable fuel providing some independence and relief from oil, government and so on. Doesn't look like that's going to be.

If you want independence, then you need enough forested land that you can harvest the trees, burn them for heat, and plant replacement trees that will be ready before you have used up your current trees. And even then, you're going to be using gasoline to run your chain saw and maybe even your wood splitter.

Except during these price spikes, propane tends to be cheaper than electricity. You just need to buy it during the summer when it is cheaper and have a large enough tank that you do not have to refill it during then winter when it is more expensive.

Of course, you could always treat propane as just your emergency backup energy supply and not use it unless the electricity is off.

A friend of mine up in Dallas recently mentioned that his electric bill for last month was $800. His house is fully electric and with a wife and a few daughters, the heat and hot water energy uses just added up.

[Bad Water Bill]

Those females best learn how to take military showers when you have to observe water hours.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks Love Life. Are they safe running them on carpeted floors?
We have two poultry houses that we heat in the winter. Because of feathers and straw, I have to be very careful when choosing heating equipment.

For years we used milk house heaters that are resistance heating coils with a fan that blows air across them.
When mounted up off the floor, they operated safely, but still got clogged up with the fine dust found in chicken houses.
Also, being so high above the floor, the zone below could get cold enough to allow their water to freeze

I switched to the DeLonghi heaters like Love Life uses, and ALL of my problems disappeared.

I suspended a heater from the ceiling so it is only an inch above the floor litter, and it performs very adequately.
Since there is no fan dragging air through it, the dust has also ceased to be a problem.

If it is safe in a firetrap like a chicken house, it's safe almost anywhere inside a home.

CM

[Love Life]

I keep a heater in the den and in the master bedroom. I keep the house thermostat at 65 and we just wear warm clothing inside.

We have a pellet stove, but it is the most worthless heat source I have ever used in my life. Burns through a $5 bag of pellets a day and provides no more heat than a space heater. Just worthless.

[montana_charlie]

We have a pellet stove, but it is the most worthless heat source I have ever used in my life. Burns through a $5 bag of pellets a day and provides no more heat than a space heater. Just worthless.
Our house is 'all electric'. When it's truly cold out, the thermostats in some rooms never shut off. That can make a big bill for the month.

The house was built with two fireplaces which have seperate flues ... but share the same chimney structure.
We no longer try to heat with logs, but we have a pellet 'insert' in the smaller fireplace.

It really does a good job for us.
With it going, thermostats cycle as expected, and the warmth even circulates up to the second floor.

Maybe your stove is poorly designed/built ... or maybe it needs a thorough cleaning.
When it's burning, is the flame 'white and active' or 'lazy and orange'?

CM

[smokesahoy]

It's the time of year I envy guys in PA again. Coal is the best thing to heat with short of having your own nuclear power plant. Ask the power companies, they seem to agree.

[Iowa Fox]

Montana Charlie, Thanks for your input on the Delonghi's in the chicken house. When I was a kid on the farm we had over 1100 in two chicken houses. The stove is doing a good job for the conditions this year, this is the 34th season for use using it. It has a steel jacket with a squirrel cage blower to move the air and seasoned Red elm is what I have been burning on the cold windy nights & days. I have a thermometer on the stack and adjust the screws by stack temp. I purchased 300 gallons of LP the third week in Sept for 1.59 a gal. and best guess looks like we used about 220 gallons to date. Thats for domestic hot water, cooking, baking, and the boiler for heat. My wife did a lot of baking and cooking with the oven this year, almost every day. Plus we were gone a lot as her mother is 98, still lives on the farm and needed some help this fall and early winter so I wasn't home to feed the stove. On the cold nights the stove can't pull the stairs and down the hall to the bedrooms. Even with the thermostats dialed back to 60 on the cold nights they will trip the boiler a few times. I'm thinking a good space heater would stop that. After hearing about the Delonghi's here and reading customer reviews on the net I'm going to try one.

My wife and I built the house. After the concrete basement walls were poured we took over with hammer & nails. That was pretty common around here back in those days for folks to built their own. Now in most of the counties here they will not let you do that.

Thanks guys for the tip on the Delonghi heaters.

[dragon813gt]

It's the time of year I envy guys in PA again. Coal is the best thing to heat with short of having your own nuclear power plant. Ask the power companies, they seem to agree.

Very very few heat w/ it anymore. Absolutely no one outside of coal country uses it. Nothing heats like a coal fired steam boiler. But both coal and steam boilers have gone the way of the dodo in residential applications.

[Love Life]

Our house is 'all electric'. When it's truly cold out, the thermostats in some rooms never shut off. That can make a big bill for the month.

The house was built with two fireplaces which have seperate flues ... but share the same chimney structure.
We no longer try to heat with logs, but we have a pellet 'insert' in the smaller fireplace.

It really does a good job for us.
With it going, thermostats cycle as expected, and the warmth even circulates up to the second floor.

Maybe your stove is poorly designed/built ... or maybe it needs a thorough cleaning.
When it's burning, is the flame 'white and active' or 'lazy and orange'?

CM

We pay to have it cleaned and serviced before every winter. We haven't even turned it on this winter, and haven't even noticed it's lack of use. I have noticed the several hundred dollars I have saved not using it.

My house is 980 SF, and the pellet stove only warms the living room...sort of.

[montana_charlie]

We pay to have it cleaned and serviced before every winter.
When we first moved in, there was a Blaze Queen (insert) wood burner in the small fireplace.
We used it for the first few years, but my wife couldn't handle firewood very well, so she convinced me to look at 'pellets'.

We had this Whitfield installed, and I carefully watched them make the electronic adjustments in the book.
The following year, I readjusted those settings a little bit ... based upon how well the stove had performed during it's first season.
Since it was new, I have been doing all of the annual cleaning and lubricating, and I wouldn't trust anybody to do it for me.
Then, if it's running all day - every day, I will redo the complete cleaning routine (which involves some internal disassembly) about once a week

The guys who installed it knew what they were doing, and it 'breathes' properly.
Breathing and clean interior surfaces ... that is the biggest part (I believe) in getting heating efficiency.

It makes me mad (on your behalf) that you have a pellet stove that won't perform the way it is supposed to.

CM

[smokesahoy]

Very very few heat w/ it anymore. Absolutely no one outside of coal country uses it. Nothing heats like a coal fired steam boiler. But both coal and steam boilers have gone the way of the dodo in residential applications.
I'm researching a hitzer 82 furnace right now. I can get coal for about 300 a ton or wood for about 250 a cord. Once adjusted to btus the coal is cheaper, but if you adjust it for the wood never being quite dry enough and having to store it in a special place to keep it dry coal comes out way ahead. No bugs, no snakes, no mice, can store 6 pallets in a room in my basement.. it just makes sense.

I wish I could get the bit coal, it would burn in the furnace I have now, but that is one thing you don't find outside coal country in stove size.

I was thinking it might even be worth it to have a tt deliver at dealer price, they say 22-26 tons. It would wipe me out but I wouldn't have to worry about heat again for years. Then I read stories about people scoring pickup loads for $20 from the employees of the mine that pick up the stuff that falls.

Well, it's cheaper than oil

[redneckdan]

All true.

BTW, natural gas prices climbed a big chunk under Al Gore's Polar Vortex. I spent a bad couple of days trying to get another 3000 horsepower of compression going at one of my stations because we're shoving gas north to you Yankees as fast as we can.

dale in Louisiana

From one mineral extraction worker to another, thank you for what you do. Seriously. It's comforting to know that the boots on the ground understand our situation up here and are working hard to help.

[grumman581]

Those females best learn how to take military showers when you have to observe water hours.

Well, I *have* been knows to go to the hot water heater and turn off the hot water to the house when my daughter was taking one of these really long "Hollywood Showers". I did give her a warning beforehand though and told her that she should be taking a "Navy Shower".

[jonp]

I get a pre-buy every year and last summer it was $2.69 with no set limit, just what you end up getting. I am getting sick of the delivery cost though. If you buy from them how are you supposed to get it?

Up north I was never without a chainsaw in my truck. Any down tree's were mine and I wasn't fussy about what they were. Beech, Sugar Maple, White/Yellow Birch, Pin Cherry didn't really care but left the softwood. I loved it when they cleared power lines. I left the obvious tree length stuff they sold to someone to get log length and just took the branches and small stuff. Never paid for wood in my life and heated my whole house with it for years.

[MaryB]

Something isn't right then because my Baby Countryside pellet stove(American Energy Systems) will heat my 1300 square foot house down to -15. right now it is 78 in the living room, rest of the house is 74ish and the furnace hasn't ran since I got up and fired the pellet stove up(I don't run it over night, have a natural gas furnace but it won't heat the living room decently so I use the pellet stove when awake). Does it use a fresh air intake kit? That is one possible issue for not heating well. Never heard of the brand name so can't offer help on adjustments.


When we first moved in, there was a Blaze Queen (insert) wood burner in the small fireplace.
We used it for the first few years, but my wife couldn't handle firewood very well, so she convinced me to look at 'pellets'.

We had this Whitfield installed, and I carefully watched them make the electronic adjustments in the book.
The following year, I readjusted those settings a little bit ... based upon how well the stove had performed during it's first season.
Since it was new, I have been doing all of the annual cleaning and lubricating, and I wouldn't trust anybody to do it for me.
Then, if it's running all day - every day, I will redo the complete cleaning routine (which involves some internal disassembly) about once a week

The guys who installed it knew what they were doing, and it 'breathes' properly.
Breathing and clean interior surfaces ... that is the biggest part (I believe) in getting heating efficiency.

It makes me mad (on your behalf) that you have a pellet stove that won't perform the way it is supposed to.

CM

[Superfly]

I can tell you one pellet stove to Avoid like the plauge. PEL PRO Absalute JUNK Zero customer service wont even return your calls. They are sold at menards up here in the northern states. Avoid them at all costs.

[MaryB]

Yeah Pelpro is bad news for sure. So is the other brand Menards has carried. No pellet stove is set it and forget it, always need to tweak them to keep them running at peak output. Kind of a hobby added on to staying warm.

[w0fms]

Regardless if the name Greenland had con artist attached there are now former farms there are are under sheets of ice. I wouldn't imagine ALL of Greenland was Green in human times.. but a lot of it was at one time...

They used to grow wine grapes in England and Scotland then too...

[montana_charlie]

Regardless if the name Greenland had con artist attached there are now former farms there are are under sheets of ice. I wouldn't imagine ALL of Greenland was Green in human times.. but a lot of it was at one time...

They used to grow wine grapes in England and Scotland then too...
True that Greenland could support farming during the MWP, though just barely. The Norse living in Iceland had a better climate.
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/vikings_during_mwp.html

CM

[jcwit]

Regardless if the name Greenland had con artist attached there are now former farms there are are under sheets of ice. I wouldn't imagine ALL of Greenland was Green in human times.. but a lot of it was at one time...

They used to grow wine grapes in England and Scotland then too...

Heck, there are fossils to be found on Antarctica.

Fact of the matter is, Greenland was not named Greenland because it was green.

Do a little research.

[Bad Water Bill]

Now look at the aquatic fossils found on Mt Everest.

Also Alaska and Siberia occasionally release deep frozen mamoths with tropical vegitation still in their stomach.

[w0fms]

Okay, throw that argument out then, but look at the global prosperity argument. Until the industrial revolution, the warm period was the "richest" period in human history. The Wine Grape stuff is true, too. As was "some farming of Greenland".

I suppose the argument I'm inferring here is that even the pretense that a warmer climate is bad is probably wrong. It's hard to say 100%, just like it's hard to say that in 100 years man has destroyed the climate, that from that one "warm time" "the world was better for man"... but if you are going to draw conclusions on that little data, it's just as valid.

Ultimately, George Carlin was probably correct in saying that in a Million years, all that will be left of man on this planet is some styrofoam from a coffee cup...

I still think it's incredibly narcissistic to think we can destroy this planet. Even if we nuke it life will come back. And if the goal is to make the environment better for man.. then... make it better for man... Evolution.. survival of the fittest.. isn't that also an argument of that political side? (That I believe myself, actually)

[oughtsix]

Letter: Blame ethanol for propane shortage
To anyone wondering why there is a shortage of propane and a doubling and tripling of the price this year, one need look no further than the 2007 government mandate on ethanol production.
By: Jim Heitz, Lignite, N.D., INFORUM
To anyone wondering why there is a shortage of propane and a doubling and tripling of the price this year, one need look no further than the 2007 government mandate on ethanol production. Consequently, farmers planted record acres of corn in the spring of 2013. In fact, they planted corn in places they have never planted corn before. Corn was planted so far north that it didn’t ripen and mature before winter set in.

In a normal year, propane is put into storage in September, October and November in anticipation of the winter heating season. But this year, that propane was used to dry corn that was immature and wet.

You can’t blame the farmers for planting more corn to take advantage of the fact that about 30 percent of our corn crop is used to make ethanol. But we certainly don’t need to make things worse by allowing the corn lobby to convince the EPA to raise the current mandated level of ethanol production and also raise the level of corn alcohol in ethanol from the current 10 percent, E10 to 15 percent, E15.

The EPA has proposed lowering the future level of mandated ethanol production, but the corn lobby opposes this.

The EPA is currently taking comments on this lower level of future mandated ethanol production. Let them know your opinion.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/425958/

[Wis. Tom]

Did you know that ethanol is only the starch from the corn, and the rest is turned back into feed and such, for livestock? I don't like burning ethanol any better than anyone else, but facts are facts.

[Pistol Champ]

I use a lot of propane, heat, hot water, etc. I did not want to worry about price changes so I bought a bunch of propane stock. Every time the price goes up so does the value of my stock so it is a always a win/win or lose/lose but net results are neutral.

[Clay M]

Right now propane is $3.15 a gallon in my area. I locked in a price of $2.09 back in Sept, so I a doing OK. I heat mostly with wood until it gets in the 20's, then I use a little propane. I sleep in a cold room. I have found I get sick less often than when I sleep in a heated room.

[Windyvista]

We had a local small company purchased by a larger company. I had been with the same larger probably 15 years ago but had switched because the were more expensive than anyone else. As soon as I heard they bought the company I was using, I figured they would take the prices up and sure enough, they did. They charged me $4.92 per gallon in early December. I did some checking around and switched to another smaller supplier who charged me $2.29 on initial fill and just filled my tank at the end of January for $2.92. So for even being in cold and rumors of a shortage, we are saving $2.00 over what the larger supplier was charging. Check around to make sure you are not getting ripped off.

[dragon813gt]

I know the problem around here is that the propane companies own the tanks. No big deal if they're above ground. But AmeriGas does not like selling you one if their underground tanks for a fair price. So you are stuck w/ purchasing from the company that owns the tank. There is even a housing development that has common tanks for all of the houses. A good majority of the home owners have already installed heat pumps and gotten rid of the propane furnaces. They are 100% at the mercy of the propane company. Which charges them an exorbitant price.

[Clay M]

I own my own tank. Only way to go here because otherwise you are stuck with buying from one company.

[HATCH]

I am so glad that I have natural gas here. My mother in law uses a patio heater on the back porch and she burns up $20 a week just so she can smoke a CIG

[6bg6ga]

I don't see ethanol production as the smoking gun here. I think the problem is one of two possibles. Either the propane companies are inflating prices to obtain extra profits saying there is a shortage or they simply didn't estimate the possible needs correctly. I live not to far from a propane site and have notices no extra tankers coming in or out. I think its manufactured to drive up prices.

[montana_charlie]

Did you know that ethanol is only the starch from the corn, and the rest is turned back into feed and such, for livestock? I don't like burning ethanol any better than anyone else, but facts are facts.
One of those 'facts' is that the distiller's grain is fed within one hundred miles of the distillery due to it's short shelf life.
If dried, to allow storage and shipping, it negates a good portion of any savings accrued from making the alcohol in the first place.

No matter how or where it is fed to cattle, it still costs more than corn from the field ... so your beef price is higher in the store.

CM

[Wis. Tom]

You are correct, Montana Charlie.

[sparky45]

I don't see ethanol production as the smoking gun here. I think the problem is one of two possibles. Either the propane companies are inflating prices to obtain extra profits saying there is a shortage or they simply didn't estimate the possible needs correctly. I live not to far from a propane site and have notices no extra tankers coming in or out. I think its manufactured to drive up prices.
I don't know, but I think it has something to do with the record COLD weather the U.S. has been having.

[6bg6ga]

I don't know, but I think it has something to do with the record COLD weather the U.S. has been having.

You could be right. It could also be that there was less on hand due to the fact that propane usage in the prior years was less and they weren't expecting the cold snap. They seem to be careful not to order anymore than what is necessary fearing having more money in it than they would if ordered in the spring.

[tommag]

2.50 or so last week they tell me. I filled a couple of 5# tanks today for 4.49. Like every thing I do (especially fishing and hunting), "you should've been here last week"

[6bg6ga]

One of those 'facts' is that the distiller's grain is fed within one hundred miles of the distillery due to it's short shelf life.
If dried, to allow storage and shipping, it negates a good portion of any savings accrued from making the alcohol in the first place.

No matter how or where it is fed to cattle, it still costs more than corn from the field ... so your beef price is higher in the store.

CM
The Farm Report says lower cattle numbers are responsible for higher beef prices. So who do you believe.

[Teddy (punchie)]

One of those 'facts' is that the distiller's grain is fed within one hundred miles of the distillery due to it's short shelf life.
If dried, to allow storage and shipping, it negates a good portion of any savings accrued from making the alcohol in the first place.

No matter how or where it is fed to cattle, it still costs more than corn from the field ... so your beef price is higher in the store.

CM

Used mainly in Dairy and used for protein, they love the taste of it. Makes good milk. Off hand I don't recall the % of protein, I know it was years ago like 7 it was cheaper then Beans.

[smokesahoy]

I don't know, but I think it has something to do with the record COLD weather the U.S. has been having.

global warming's a bitch.

[WilliamDahl]

The Farm Report says lower cattle numbers are responsible for higher beef prices. So who do you believe.

There were some droughts that caused a lot of ranchers to reduce their herds.

[Bad Water Bill]

Do not forget the storm that hit last year and froze cattle where they stood.

Someone here posted photos showing some ranchers loses.

[montana_charlie]

The Farm Report says lower cattle numbers are responsible for higher beef prices. So who do you believe.
I get to see both ends of the beef price story. I see the price at the supermarket, and I see the price for the weaned calf being purchased to be fed up to finish weight.
I've been selling beef calves for twenty years, so I guess I'll just believe my own experience.
CM

[Sweetpea]

Those beef prices are insane...

[MT Gianni]

Those beef prices are insane...

With hay at over $200 a ton, replacement heifers of any quality scarce, land prices and water issues they are justified but still high. If you have a freezer and want to eat beef pick up a Corriente roping steer that has outgrown it's usefulness for a lot cheaper than Angus prices. The catch is you have to go to the sale or buy direct..

[MaryB]

I buy a quarter of beef every year from a local farmer. Black angus grass fed, aged 2 weeks, cut, wrapped, delivered to my front door for $3 a pound. Local butcher who keeps things super clean so a rare hamburger is just fine, I asked him and he ate some raw that he was grinding.