Success with the Witness in 45 ACP

[Buckshot]

.............This pistol (full size) in 38 Super was exceedingly accurate from the git-go with most anything I wanted to shoot through it. From 122gr to 153gr cast, it shot them from very good to what I consider match grade. This would be right around 1" at 25 yards off the bench. And this is a box stock auto.

However, after getting a 45 ACP barrel and slide, things weren't so shiney right off the bat. In fact it was a bit tiresome as anything I tried did about the same. That is, while nothing was really wild 10 rnd groups would run from a best of 3" with a couple 'outties' to maybe 6" counting all 10 rounds.

All the slugs I'd tried up to that point had been of the 230gr (ish) weight. I figured that was the design weight, and with their longer bearing surface if anything would shoot well from the first it would be those. After several months of on and off testing I decided a change was needed, and what the heck anyway?

I had a bit over 50 of the Lee 452-190 SWC's left over so loaded some up with W231. I started with 5.1 grs and went up 0.2grs at a time to 5.7 grs. This Lee boolit has a somewhat short nose which allows it to be seated out so it's shoulder hits the lands when chambered. And an obvious plus is at this OAL they'll feed from the magazine. Not many things are more useless then a singly loaded semi-auto.

I had bought some commercial 200 gr SWC's, but the longer noses precluded this seating out, and shooting them wasn't much different then with the heavier slugs. They were also not really round as they'd drop a thou across the parting line.

The loads with the 190 gr Lee were instantly better then anything previously shot, and as the load increased the better they did. While still not matching the performance of the pistol in 38 Super I was getting 6-7 shots that would clump up into a single half dollar sized hole. SInce these did so well (comparatively) and I didn't recall trying the commercial 200 gr SWC's with W231, I loaded some of those. I just loaded 50 over 5.0 grs of the powder.

They were seated out as far as would feed from the magazine. I shot them last Tuesday and danged if they didn't do very well. In fact very similar to the 190 gr Lee's. They too would clump the majority of the shots from a 10 rnd group, but also there'd be a few 'strays' outside. I don't know why this is unless it's just me and the short sight radius. I decided to try some offhand shooting with them and had no problems keeping 10 rounds inside the 5.25" black of the NRA 25 yard slowfire target.

For me that's pretty dang good and also considering I had to show a bit of light between the bull and the front sight to hit center. Ten rounds of 45 ACP in a 5.25" circle sure makes a mess of it :-). Now I need to go back and try to figure out why the heavies don't shoot as well. Any ideas?

................Buckshot

[S.R.Custom]

My experience with lead bullets and the .45 ACP is such that I've always had to use a really hard alloy to get the best accuracy. Despite the fact that the .45 is a low pressure round, the rifling is so shallow that it took a hard alloy to dig in to the rifling soon enough to avoid skidding.

I offer that as general counsel, since a veteran caster and shooter such as yourself would have thought of that immediately.

As to your specific problem, perhaps the 230 gr bullets are offering too much of a goofy recoil impulse, and maybe the barrel is beginning to unhook too soon? Do you have the option of using a stiffer recoil spring?

[9.3X62AL]

Now I wish I had stayed to watch that Taurus work.

Which 230 grainers have you tried? I have some of the BD Originals laying around, and Lyman #452374 will re-appear shortly.

Super Mag brings up a good point--the shallow grooves/short land height on most 45 ACP barrels. In running the Lyman #452374's down more than a few 45 ACP barrels, this boolit doesn't have a very long footprint--very little of the radius in front of the lube groove gets engraved. My thoughts are that #452460 or H&G #68 have a LOT more engagement surface than the #452374 has.

[Buckshot]

..............SuperMag, the heavies I tried were some of the BD's gifted to me by 9.3x62AL, the Lee 452-228RN, the Lee 452-230 TC, and some old commercial leftovers I had bought to use in a Norinco 1911 clone. They were 232 grs. Those I'd cast up had been done long ago and if I knew the BHN atthe time I didn't write it on their containers. I'll have to try casting some harder ones and see. The stock spring is 16# I think. I have a Wolff spring pack that goes to 24 #'s for it.

.............9.3x62AL, ah, it's a Tanfoglio Witness, not a Taurus :-). I did try some of the BD's, as you gave them to me some time back when I was having issues with the first barrel.

The 190gr Lees shot so well I figured I'd buy it in a 6 cavity. Apparently they'd discontinued that one and now only show a longer nosed 200 gr SWC. I went to thier website and checked their surplus page and they showed 2 x 6 cavity moulds for the 452-190SWC so I snagged one :-).

...............Buckshot

[S.R.Custom]

I'll be interested to see if you can get the Lee truncated cone bullets to work-- I've been thinking about getting that mould my ownself. Back when I bought commercial bullets, I found the TCs to be more inherently accurate than anything else...

As for springweight & recoil... IIRC, the Witness has a lighter slide than the 1911? A 20# spring may be in order.

[9.3X62AL]

Taurus.....Tanfoglio......Taurus.......sheesh. Furreign pistol, then.

I meant to pour some Lyman #452374's today, but got way-laid into other projects. As usual. Maybe later today, or tomorrow.

[IcerUSA]

I was lucky and got one of the Lee 190gn SWC's and they do shoot good in both my 45ACP's , a Kimber I rebarreled and my old Hardballer , and the mould I got has the regular type lube grooves also .

Keith

[Slowpoke]

I found the lee 190 swc would out shoot any other bullet - boolit I tried in my 1911, but because of the short nose I had to modify two magazines for use with them. Most likely why it was discontinued.

I always felt the secrete was in that narrow base band, but then again perhaps it is that short nose. :)

I killed a lot of game with that boolit over the years but very few bang flops, some of my buddies thought it was quite amusing.

good luck

[9.3X62AL]

Super Mag--

The Lee TC designs in 9mm (125 grains) and 40 S&W (175 grains) both shoot and function well from my several pistols in those calibers. In 45 ACP, Lymans #452374 and #452460 have done so well for so long in so many pistols--I haven't given the 45 TC's much use. The few I've run all fed and shot well, though.

[JSH]

I knew this would happen. I was on the search for one of the Witness Elite Match in 45ACP this past year. Seemed as they were all spoken for. Did find a used one or two for new unfired price. I got ticked and said the heck with it and bought the 625JM. Now a fellow I know, knew I was looking for one. He bought one for himself, the Elite Match. I have looked it over and it has a rifled barrel rather than the polygonal, that was in question that seemed no one could give a 100% answer on.
I am just in the last bit of trading into this.
Please bear with me fellows as I am pretty ignorant in the ways of the workings of the bigger autos. So I may ask a few questions that some deem as common knowledge amongst your selves.
Some where in a past post, some one had a Witness set up and said the brass would just roll out, rather than fling it. Curious as to what load, springs etc were used.
Jeff

[MtGun44]

Buckshot,

If you can get some 452460s my Pointman 7 (Dan Wesson/CZ) shoots these
babies much tighter than anything else I have tried to date. I have an original
H&G 68 mold on the way and want to try that one, but commercial 68 clones,
and the RCBS near clone of the 68 were OK, but not great. Try about 3.5-4 gr
BE or TG.

I have been getting 1.5" groups at 25 yds., which I find to be outstanding for
a 1911.

Bill

[JSH]

I think maybe I need a new book. How to auto pistol book for dummies,lol.
I have looked throught the Brownells catalogue for springs for the Witness. Are guys using a springs for the CZ's?
Is there as good generic read on autos out there?
How many different kinds of lock ups are there? Or should I say designs?
Went over to the milsurp page as some of you had said there was some new articles. The auto pistol there looked like a pretty interesting one, other than the 9x18/380.
Jeff

[JSH]

Never say never..............................
I swore I would never own a 6.5. I darn sure was never going to cast for anything smaller than 30 caliber. Well, proved wrong there,lol.
Then I had no wants for an auto of anykind, let alone a 45ACP, big slow ugly thing. Got the revolter, now I got my paws on the EAA Elite Match. Everything I expected, except the rear sight. Thing has a W and E adjustable but it has those two dots and the rear blade is not what I wanted. Oh well, easy enough to cure that.

I think I may be losing it. I mean going with an old turd like the 45ACP and not going with the masses to the new whiz bang calibers,lol.
Should make a new post but will just tack it here.
I doubted Ken and several others a few years back on the use of CB's. I tell you what I have had a lot of fun with it. The self achievment that I have gotten from this is just hard to put into words.
Many thanks to a WHOLE LOT of darn fine folks here.
Jeff

[45nut]

self achievement


That pretty much is the bottom line isn't it?

[JSH]

Buckshot, not to hijack this thread, but may narrow a search on Witness type stuff. So thought I would just keep tagging this.......................
I played a bit with the Elite Match yesterday. It was an "off" day for my shooting abilities to say the least. As delivered, it won't cycle "cat sneeze" loads. I had some really lite loads and the powder burn was terrible, used BE and unique. Both left a lot of junk. Thought I would shoot them up in the 625, gunked it up too. So bad in fact that the cases sooted and had a hard time getting the last moon clip full in and closed.
I did have a half a box of ball ammo and got the sights roughed in. Everything worked fairly well other than that. I am getting a bit more creep or take up than I like. May just take some getting used too as I am no auto guy to begin with. Others that looked at it thought it was great.
Who or where can I get recoil springs for this?
Will a CZ 97 or 97B mag work in these?
I was at the CZ board and read till my eyes got tired. No one really answered the question in a lot of the back pages of the CZ clone area. I didn't ask over there, never have gotten much response there. An informitve site though none the less.

I did go to a GS this past Sat. looking for magazines. Guy had one and wanted $47.95! Has to be some place that those things are some what cheaper, yet still reliable.
Jeff

[obssd1958]

Jeff,

You and I discussed the Witness last year when you were looking for the Elite Match. I have both a large frame full size 10mm/40 S&W and a large frame compact .45 ACP. I have gotten both springs and magazines from e-Bay, back in the days when they thought it was "okay" to sell those things. Natchez has the mags - http://www.natchezss.com/category.cfm?contentID=productDetail&brand=ZM&category=18&prodID=ZMEAA14&CFID=971301&CFTOKEN=10484450
but I don't remember right now who manufactured the springs. I'll see if I can find the packaging that they came in and post back here tomorrow.

Glad to hear you got the pistol that you wanted. If it is anything like the ones that I have, you'll be a happy camper!!:Fire:

Take care,

Don

[Buckshot]

...............I got the spring pack from Wolf (Wolff?) anyway, the big gunspring makers. Speaking of magazines, my pistol was originally in 38 Super. The mag holds 18 rounds and figured I needed a 2nd mag. The big Los Angeles gunshow was still on at that time and California has it's own 10 round limit law. The only high cap mags were those already in the state. I fond 3 places with 38 Super high cap mags. Two wanted $175 each, and one wanted $150. So I paid $150 for ONE magazine :-)

................Buckshot

[S.R.Custom]

Damn. That's a lot of money. I could retire off the magazines I have in my collection right now... (How does anyone know what hi-cap mags were in-state already?)

Let us know how the springs work.

[JSH]

OMG, $150 for a mag. I may as well quit ********,lol. If they only made 6 shot magazines I would not be bothered, would make autos even with revolters, but defeat the purpose I suppose?
Buckshot, the springs were gun specific I take it?

Don good to hear from you again. I had forgotten about the discussions we had till I saw your handle and it rang a bell. The rear sight did tick me off a bit, but I will make do with it for now.
I am still think of an up grade. Other than that it was all I expected really. I wish the magazines had aluminum bases or steel. Dumping them on the ground can do the plastic no good no matter how tuff it is supposed to be.
I looked back through my EAA catalog at some "custom" stuff. Then went to their web site to have a better look. They don't show a lot of the suff like the mag bases and the aluminum grips.
Honestly I am looking forward to making this one shoot. It has shown way more promise out the gate than the SW did, sad to say. I still have a couple of things I want to do to the 625 to satisfy me, but it will work for now I think.
Thanks again.
Jeff

[45nut]

Hey Jeff,, should I make the change to your handle to JSH.45 yet? :p