Cool 303 british ammo w pics!

[cpileri]

I was rummaging thru some odds and ends and found some old 303 british ammo. i wondered what exactly it was.
Online searching found lots of info about headstamps, wayyyyyy too many to figure out (easily anyway), so i decided to take out the file and dremel and see what the projectiles were hiding. here they are:

[louism]

You found the long sought after disappearing bullets.


I think you forgot to attach the photos.

[cpileri]

yeah no kidding. hang on...

failing on 3 different computers, will try again later.

but I swear they are really cool: 2 different Mk VII tips and one Mk II AP tip. Cut away views and everything.

Oh well, sorry to tease. but i will wait to see if the problem clears up.

C-

[swheeler]

Sounds cool, just wish I could see a couple pictures of them!

[Bloodman14]

This thread is useless without pics (we need an emoticon for this!).

[cpileri]

Yes, it is.
And the image uploader on this site is useless without.... well, its just useless.
To me. right now, at least.

Soon as its fixed, i promise I will post them.
C-

[tomme boy]

Just load them onto this site. You are a sponsor so you can load a lot of photo's. Just go to the advanced reply and attach the image.

[AlaskanGuy]

Your problem is the pics are just too large to be uploaded from your computer.... Re-size them down to under 1 mb and they will upload fine...

AG

[daengmei]

I bought some that are supposed to be tracer. Is it possible to set the tracer burning with a dremel? Not sure but it would be some surprise. See this http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes

[53caddy]

Almost a day later and still no pictures this thread is killing my patience.

[cpileri]

funny, never had a prob w big files before. anyway, here's one

[cpileri]

hope my art work comes out clearly for you all.
C-

[tomme boy]

I have a few that has a rubber tip like the one that has the wood. They are meant to bend and then tumble when the hit.

[fred2892]

Kynoch, Roadway Green and Royal Laboratories.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have an original packet of 10 MkII dated 27/11/1902

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_0088_e_zps932cc63a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_0088_e_zps932cc63a.jpg.html)

[Dead Dog Jack]

The Royal Laboratories G II round is a tracer round. Pre-1944.

[cpileri]

Thanks All!
Esp for the headstamp info.
So the RG round is also a tracer? or only if pre-1944? (which this one is not, its 1944 )

And I have heard that the mk VII had different materials stuffed into the tips, but never seen rubber. Cool!

C-

[Herb in Pa]

Kynoch, Roadway Green and Royal Laboratories.

Radway Green

[fred2892]

Yep, Radway Green. That's what happens when you get a new tablet computer thingy and it autocorrects words for you!

[daengmei]

Bought these at Knob Creek some years ago. Three different headstamps. U ^ (closest I got for a diamond and I'm not sure of the info); R^L (almost an arrow) Royal Laboratory; BE Royal Ordnance Factory. All GII.

94356
94357

I would still like to know if these are dangerous to cut.

[tomme boy]

I thought I seen some that had cotton also in the tip. They did this as the dum dum rounds were illegal for use in war. If I remember right the ones I had that had rubber were Yugoslavian or Greek.

[cpileri]

Do it like I did: use a file until you see what lies beneath, then decide if you want to go electric or not.
File is slow but safe.
And use eye protection.
C-

[Multigunner]

The MkVII bullet originally had an aluminum nose plug, they used other lightweight materials when aluminum became a strategic metal necessary for aircraft construction.
The MkVII is a development of the Taylor "Velopex" hunting bullet.
The original intent of the light nose plug was to allow for lighter weight large caliber bullets for the "Express" rifle loads. The express loads with light weight all lead core bullets had proven to be less accurate and scrubbed off velocity quickly at longer ranges.
The two piece core allowed for a longer bullet with longer bearing surface at the same weight, and improved ballistic coefficient.

The MkVII bullet was a mating of the Velopex construction with the profile of the heavy weight "Swift" bullet that had proven itself in long range target matches.
Early testing using commercial 150 gr Velopex .303 bullets had been very promising.

The first run of MkVII bullets had weighed 160 grains, but accuracy was very inconsistent at that weight so they upped the weight to 170+ grains.

Heres an excerpt from a discussion of these tests.




§ Mr. COURTHOPE To ask the Secretary of State for War what are the point-blank range, the breech pressure, the ballistic coefficient, the time of flight for 1,000 yards, and the deflection at 1,000 yards for a wind of ten miles per hour, in the case of each of the following types of .303 ammunition: service Lee-Metford, with bullet of 215 grains; Swift, with bullet of 225 grains; Velopex, with bullet of 150 grains, and Lee-Metford Palma, with bullet of 225 grains.

(Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) For the service 215-grain bullet the point-blank range for a height of trajectory above line of sight not exceeding five feet is 550 yards; as regards breech pressure the mean pressure does not exceed 16½ tons. The ballistic coefficient is .42 approximately; the time of flight for 1,000 yards is 2.4 seconds; the deflection at 1,000 yards for a wind of ton miles an hour is 13¼ feet (calculated). Similar information as regards the three other bullets is not available.


more here
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1908/oct/22/service-rifle-muzzle-velocity-etc#S4V0194P0_19081022_HOC_20

If not for development of the MkVII bullet they would likely have gone to the 150 gr bullet at 2600+ FPS, but the available double base propellants were a bit too erosive for a true high velocity lightweight bullet. The U S had to go to single base powders to avoid excessive erosion when using the 150 gr bullets at 2700+ FPS.

[cpileri]

this thread has become much more interesting than I anticipated!

Cool!

[dromia]

This thread is useless without pics (we need an emoticon for this!).

There you go.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/adamsutherland/Smilies%20FB/FB%20UK%20Smilies%202/this_thread_is_useless_without_pics.gif

[cpileri]

I pulled and cut fully the MK VII 1944 projo and it was lead all the way to the base- no tracer. just FYI.
C-

[cpileri]

BTW: they all fired out of my enfield No4 mk I.
C-

[cpileri]

I recently picked up some of those 410 Enfield musket round ball loads. Other guys have posted pictures of them here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252275-For-all-you-410-RB-Shooters-Item-of-note&p=2914968&viewfull=1#post2914968


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252275-For-all-you-410-RB-Shooters-Item-of-note&p=2914968&viewfull=1#post2914968

I did some searching, though; to find out what pressures they were loaded to. Only one short reference mentioning that a guy w one of the rifled analyzed his proof marks, and found it had been (re-) proofed a BNP 3&1/4 tons...or is it british long tonnes. Either way, thats only 6000-7000 psi.
Now that was on the converted rifle itself.

So if these are only loaded to 6kpsi, then they are well within safe for any 410bore. But I am not convinced.

Anyone have any rifle w proof marks for pressure?

anyoen have any real pressure testing?

anyone have any anecdotal "I shot these in my H&R 410 and they did great" (or not!) info?

Thx,
C-

[Hang Fire]

If powder charge was still in case, I am not that much of a thrill seeker to be cutting into the bullets.

[Scharfschuetze]

I've never thought of cutting my projos, but then I don't think that I've ever had anything other than Mk VII ball ammo, so no surprises there.

I currently have a sealed metal tin and half of another tin of the stuff in the photos below. While made in 1942, I only experience a very slight hang fire in perhaps every 20 shots or so. It's loaded with cordite, so it only gets shot in my "Cordite Endfield" which is a Lithgow No 1 Mk III* that shoots the stuff very well at long range on the high deserts of the Rocky Mountain States. It'll be a sad day when I shoot the last of it up as over the years the expended tins have provided a lot of shooting fun.

Anyone have any idea of the pedigree of this ammo?

[gew98]

Bought these at Knob Creek some years ago. Three different headstamps. U ^ (closest I got for a diamond and I'm not sure of the info); R^L (almost an arrow) Royal Laboratory; BE Royal Ordnance Factory. All GII.

94356
94357

I would still like to know if these are dangerous to cut.

The "U" is easy...south Africa , Kimberly Mint. The BE is blackpole . And the R'arrow' L is royal Laboratories Woolwich. Why cut 'em . Just shoot them . You would'nt happen to be my buddy in radcliff would ya ?.

[gew98]

I've never thought of cutting my projos, but then I don't think that I've ever had anything other than Mk VII ball ammo, so no surprises there.

I currently have a sealed metal tin and half of another tin of the stuff in the photos below. While made in 1942, I only experience a very slight hang fire in perhaps every 20 shots or so. It's loaded with cordite, so it only gets shot in my "Cordite Endfield" which is a Lithgow No 1 Mk III* that shoots the stuff very well at long range on the high deserts of the Rocky Mountain States. It'll be a sad day when I shoot the last of it up as over the years the expended tins have provided a lot of shooting fun.

Anyone have any idea of the pedigree of this ammo? South African made Ball.

[Scharfschuetze]

Thanks for that. They made pretty good ammo.

[gew98]

Thanks for that. They made pretty good ammo.

I shot up a gob of South African "7,7" Mk7 ball when it was available years ago. Great stuff , not cordite and not corrosive. Wish it was still around in quantity these days !.

[Multigunner]

Don't know if its an official designation but it seems that the .303 bullet with lightweight nose insert is the MkVII while substitute bullets with all ead core are generally designated Mk7, at least if the propellant is a smokeless powder rather than cordite strands.
Controversy over the wounding effect of the MkVII bullet seems to have led to post war production to shift to an all lead core equivalent.
There were cases where Germans during both WW1 and WW2 tried to excuse the mistreatment and murders of UK POWs by claiming the MkVII was a prohibited bullet or that the riflemen in question had mutilated bullets to cause horrific wounds.

Such concerns don't seem to have bothered Pakistan or India till long after WW2, they were still using the MkVII bullet well into the sixties at least and probably later on.
Modern day manufacture Indian .303 ammo is a Mk7z type with all lead core. There are still BREN and Vickers guns in .303 in their inventory, though not as frontline weapons. India also sells .303 ammo under contract to other governments that still have some .303 weapons in use.

Be nice if they sold freshly manufactured Indian Mk7z ammo commercially.
Unfortunately this ammo is listed as having a shelf life of only 5 years if a certain primer compound is used, possibly to prevent long term stockpiling of purloned ammo by insurgents.
They probably intended to use up the short shelf life ammo in training before it has to be returned for remanufacture.

[303Guy]

The "U" in the head stamp is for Union of South Africa. I had some R2M2 ammo which turned out to be MkVIII. The cordite sticks were grooved (and maybe hollow? Not sure now). I did chronograph one and it was something like 2750 fps (does that sound right?) I shot 500 of these through my 1902 with a new No4 barrel. The breach end was smoother and the rifling slightly rounded near the breach after that. I remember the barrel getting pretty hot - too hot to touch.

[Scharfschuetze]

The ammo I have (photo above) chronographs at an average 2,390 fps and is almost spot on for the paper ballistics for the Mk VII round. Its trajectory is very close to the sight settings on the rifle out many hundreds of yards. The cordite does heat up a barrel and I keep the sustained rate of fire down so the barrel doesn't get too hot.

I also had a bunch of the later South African Mk 7 ball years ago. That was probably the best 303 ball ammo that I ever shot. I never had a lot of it and it went pretty fast.