Lubing heel (two diameter) bullets---technique??

[John in PA]

Any good ideas for lubing heel bullets without making a mess? I'm working with the 10.4X47R mm Italian Vetterli, duplicating the 1870 lead bullet load. I've got a heel bullet mold coming from NEI that closely duplicates the black powder bullet for the original cartridge. Basically the rear half inch of the bullet is about .414-.415", a smaller diameter than the front bands (about .424-.425"). The heel goes inside the case and it crimps immediately behind the rearmost large band. This .41 Swiss bullet is the basic bullet design, but with a much smaller hollow base and larger diameter dimensons by a few thousandths.

94108

So if I stick this in a .424-.425 lubrisizer, it's going to make a mess with the smaller base bands allowing free flow of lube all over the die and bullet base. Should I pan lube with a rather firm blackpowder lube and push them out of the lube cake from the bottom of the sheet? Will that give fairly clean base and nose bands? I guess I could also do some type of double kake cutters to clean excess lube from both sets of bands. I'm open to suggestions.

[geargnasher]

I'd lube them the way most heeled boolits are lubed: With a coating. Specifically, I'd use 45/45/10 tumble lube.

Gear

[Sweetpea]

+1

Other than that, you could take some time to set up a Star properly, but I believe the 45-45-10 will work better.

[John Allen]

I would try pan lubing. I think you might be ok. If you pull the cooled lube out of the pan and pop the bullets out from the bottom I think it would work.

[bhn22]

Are you shooting black powder? I think I'd lube with something like SPG on a fingertip.

[runfiverun]

I still see 2 useable inside the case lube grooves...
if it were black powder I'd use a grease cookie and fill the outer grooves too.
if for smokeless, id have to go with either hand lubing.
it really doesn't take that long to fill a couple of grooves with lube neatly.
or pan/dip lubing and then clean the base up with a cookie cutter.

[John in PA]

I'm planning on trying black powder first as the base needs a serious bump up to bore diameter after it exits the case. I've cast from 5% Tin, 95% lead, so the bullets should be plastic enough to expand pretty well on firing. If I try smokeless I might try Unique or Blue Dot with a tuft of Dacron to hold the powder against the primer. Original load was 62 grains black powder with a 315 gr lead bullet, to give an idea of case capacity. Original muzzle velocities were somewhere around 1250 fps. The hollow in the base is much smaller than the one pictured in the drawing, only about .2" diameter by .235" deep.

Actual mold with a couple sample bullets is here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/jwellsgnr/DSC03886_zps71cb1f4c.jpg

[Baja_Traveler]

I pan lube my heeled 22's using my normal black powder lube. When I push them out from the base the heels are perfectly clean and the bands filled with lube. I'm guessing that since there is no rim to keep the wax in place, it just separates away and stays with the block leaving a clean heel. Give it a try - your larger diameter boolits just might act the same.
Other than that, I'd probably experiment using a bullet plate in the bottom of the pan. Get a piece of 1/2" acrylic or plastic sheet and using a 27/64's drill punch the number of holes you normally lube. A new 27/64 drill should allow the heel to drop in, but be too small for the driving bands so the heel will never see wax. Just a thought any way...

94366

[John in PA]

I went ahead and pan-lubed with a stiff black powder lube. Chilled the cake and first tried pushing bullets out from the base. Much more difficult than normal. I pushed out from the noses and got perfectly lubed bullets and lube sheared away from the rings on both heel and driving area. Apparently I was concerned over nothing. Got some loaded up. Just waiting for the sub-arctic temperatures in central PA to abate so I can try them on paper!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/jwellsgnr/DSC03893_zpsfcc0169c.jpg

[MT Chambers]

Pretty simple to set the Star to do 1 or 2 grooves on any bullet, anything else will take forever and be a big mess.

[John in PA]

I could do that on my Lyman's too IF the bullet was all one diameter. The rear three bands are smaller than the front three. That would allow lube to flow all over the place. I'll continue this way for now. I'm probably not going to be shooting hundreds of rounds in this old boy anyhow, just wanted to breathe some life into the old fellow!

[texassako]

I had Accurate Molds make a close copy of the original Italian Vetterli heeled bullet. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?216066-Recreating-a-close-to-original-load-in-an-Italian-Vetterli-carbine&highlight=italian+vetterli It is not hollow based. Dip lubed the bottom half, then dip lubed the top half after assembly. Wipe off the excess. Seating the bullet scrubs off any excess on the base. I also used a trick learned from another member here, a wax paper disk to keep the lube off the BP. I used 50/50 beeswax/Crisco, but only tested one initial load. Promising results but the fouling was not staying soft at the muzzle. The 65gr of FFFg that my cases held is quite a bit more than the original case contained. It looks like you used .348 Win cases. Mine would not eject them after firing(rim to small) and went to converted 8mm Lebel brass.

[John in PA]

Hmmm... I've only tested ejection with empties and loaded ammo. Still stuck in the Arctic here, so haven't tried ejecting fired cases yet.

What specs did you use for the various band diameters on your bullet recreation? Did you slug and mike your bore? Mine mikes at .424" groove, about .409" across the lands.

[John in PA]

Is this your bullet, Tex?

http://www.accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/catalogue/43-310B.png

[texassako]

Yes, that is mine. The specs on the page are from measuring mine(.408", .425"), and I dug some of them out of a lot of online research such as the original heel and first band diameter. Tom at Accurate also helped scale it from a picture of an original since I knew that band size, length, and weight. .408" heel, .431" first band, .416" second band, .408" nose. The thick neck .348 cases I have from BACO do not chamber with the heeled bullet in my rifle. The original 1870 loads were 4 grams (61-62 gr) of a very coarse BP(Fg maybe?), and then later 2.4 grams(37gr) Ballistite n.1 smokeless in 1890.

[Wayne Smith]

I wouldn't try a lube cookie with a hollow base boolit. The lube will just be compressed into the base. Might help expansion??

[John in PA]

I've loaded up 62 gr of 1F Schuetzen for the test loads. No compression, just nicely fills case to the bullet base. Hoping the alder charcoal in the Schuetzen helps keep fouling soft. I'm not happy with mold dimensions on the NEI mold (nose way too small to bore-ride, and heel narrower than promised, so bullet heel is looser than should be in case neck. I had to crimp into the mid band to get enough bite to be able to handle ammo and cycle through magazine. I might get Accurate to cut me a mold similar to yours with my specs on band diameters and nose-poured/bored through for hollow base plug (which I'll fab, fit, and install, or might send to hollowpointmolds.com and have them do a bar conversion for auto base plug if I get totally crazy-er).

Say, what's the market like for authentic Italian Vetterli bullets anyhow? Likely to boom anytime soon? (color me "dubious"... :wink: )