My argument against those who say the S&W lock is dangerous

[taiden]

If the S&W lock was dangerous for defensive purposes (accidental lockup), they wouldn't have put it on the TRR8 which was designed specifically for SWAT point men.

94102

If it's good enough for point men, it's good enough for me. Any rebuttals?

[kweidner]

I had one come on under recoil....prefer it without them.

[bedbugbilly]

All my my Smiths are vintage - pre IL. However, I've seen a lot of different threads on the IL and it seems to me it's like "beating a dead horse". If I ran across a Smith I liked and it had an IL, it would not be a deal killer for me. Yea, yea . . . some have had them lock up - but if you don't like 'em, just don't buy 'em. I've had other makes that have had IL and have never had a problem.

A lot of hype about "what if" . . . but let's face it, ANY handgun can have a "what if". You can have a problem with a semi-auto as well in any SD scenario. . . and you can also have a problem with a Smith that doesn't have the IL - I could say that I don't trust my vintage Smiths because they are old and something "might" break . . .

What it all boils down to is if a person doesn't like a handgun with a IL . . then walk away from it. If it doesn't bother you . . . then buy it.

[kweidner]

Don't get me wrong. It was probably an isolated incident. Just said it for making a point. Still own gun. still carry it. I still prefer a gun without one.

[ole 5 hole group]

Never had a problem with the lock, but all my "new" Smiths are now fitted with the "plug", so I'll never experience that isolated incident. I kept the lock internals, so if I ever have a weak moment and sell a Smith, the new owner will have the option to putting it back into "original" condition.

[Fire_Medic]

Where did you get the plug? I thought I remember Apex tactical selling something like that before but when I looked on their website recently I did not see it.

Thanks
FM

[Love Life]

I've never had an issue with the lock, but I DID own a TRR8. It was a *** from the performance center. Some of the worst money I have ever spent on a firearm. I haven't bought a new S&W since.

[dragon813gt]

The lock doesn't bother me one bit. That's the long and short of it.

[dubber123]

I'd be surprised to see any entry team using a revolver these days. What little experience I have with 7 and 8 shot revolvers is they are a chore to speedload compared to a 6 shot gun, and unless your last name is Miculek, way slower than an auto.

I've never seen a lock fail personally, I just find them butt ugly and unnecessary.

[Petrol & Powder]

Wheel guns are sometimes used by the shield man. The edge of the shield can interfere with the slide on a semi-auto pistol. With a laser attached to the handgun, the user can sight via the port in the shield without exposing his head. Not sure why you would need 8 rounds in the gun?

[Love Life]

Because 8 rounds are mo' better than 6 rounds.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, I can't argue with that logic. :roll:

But if we're talking about a gun for the guy with the shield, then there are a bunch of his friends behind him with a LOT of rounds available. But hey, It looks cool!

[Petrol & Powder]

Because 8 rounds are mo' better than 6 rounds.

Just mo' better or much mo' betterer?

[Love Life]

It's not that it looks cool, it's the fact that it holds 2 more rounds. Using 5 star firearms speed loaders, and rn boolits, that gun was hell on wheels when it played nice.

[Blammer]

the reason I'll not own a S&W with a lock.

this guy Lewis Perkins is a good friend of mine

http://www.carolinashootersclub.com/threads/12533-S-amp-W-Revolver-locks-itself?highlight

[junkpile]

That kind of reasoning doesn't get anywhere with me. All of us military folks have learned that many weapons have special nuances, and you learn to pamper them in certain areas. I won't bet my life on anything just because it was designed for the snipers, or the SWAT, or whatever. I've seen weapons misfed, or locked up in way too many hairy situations. The only lock I need on my guns is me.

[Love Life]

I bet my life on the M16A4 and later on the M4 with M203 attached because it was issued to me...

[Piedmont]

I've never had an issue with the lock, but I DID own a TRR8. It was a *** from the performance center. Some of the worst money I have ever spent on a firearm. I haven't bought a new S&W since.

Nope, because using the logic of the original post, it couldn't be a *** because S&W designed it just for SWAT point men. They wouldn't make it for 'swat point men' if it was a ***, just like the lock has to be a good idea and cause no problems.

BTW if anyone takes the lock out you are right back to deactivating a safety which could be made to look bad in court if there were a shooting. I put the magazine disconnect back in my Hi Power for just that reason. It makes dry firing a pain, but I sometimes carry it and keep it around loaded, so it seemed prudent to put it back in.

[Love Life]

The gun just isn't made for high volume shooting. I swear though, when she ran well, she was hell on wheels!! I had a serious love/hate relationship with that gun, and maybe I got a lemon, but for what that thing cost it should have been cooking me breakfast.

[220swiftfn]

Nope, because using the logic of the original post, it couldn't be a *** because S&W designed it just for SWAT point men. They wouldn't make it for 'swat point men' if it was a ***, just like the lock has to be a good idea and cause no problems.

BTW if anyone takes the lock out you are right back to deactivating a safety which could be made to look bad in court if there were a shooting. I put the magazine disconnect back in my Hi Power for just that reason. It makes dry firing a pain, but I sometimes carry it and keep it around loaded, so it seemed prudent to put it back in.

The last I knew, there hadn't been a single case that this had been brought up in....... Has this changed???? The simple fact is that if a prosecutor wanted to, he could "make you look bad" for getting out of bed in the morning.... Or at least try to.


Dan

[warf73]

If the S&W lock was dangerous for defensive purposes (accidental lockup), they wouldn't have put it on the TRR8 which was designed specifically for SWAT point men.


If it's good enough for point men, it's good enough for me.

If you think any SWAT team uses them as is from the factory your mistaken. That would be like saying Jerry Miculek uses a bone stock revovler from S&W.
Here you go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4 I'll bet Jerry isn't using a factory gun, aka unaltered in any way shape or form.

[leftiye]

Never had a problem with the lock, but all my "new" Smiths are now fitted with the "plug", so I'll never experience that isolated incident. I kept the lock internals, so if I ever have a weak moment and sell a Smith, the new owner will have the option to putting it back into "original" condition.

Exactly, disable it.

[dragon813gt]

BTW if anyone takes the lock out you are right back to deactivating a safety which could be made to look bad in court if there were a shooting. I put the magazine disconnect back in my Hi Power for just that reason. It makes dry firing a pain, but I sometimes carry it and keep it around loaded, so it seemed prudent to put it back in.

If I was relying on the firearm to protect my life why would I care? Such a moot point IMO. There is the old saying that it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. I guess you don't carry reloads either? Talk about another dead horse topic.

[Petrol & Powder]

It's not that it looks cool, it's the fact that it holds 2 more rounds. Using 5 star firearms speed loaders, and rn boolits, that gun was hell on wheels when it played nice.

10-4, I should have used the sarcasm font.

[DRNurse1]

Love Life, what do you call 13+1 if 8 is hell on wheels (If capacity is the critical issue in a carry gun)?

Piedmont, you are worried about a jury's reaction to a righteous shoot? You are alive the BG is not is the reaction of concern.

[Tatume]

I had a revolver fail to close properly because unburned powder had gotten under the extractor star. I won't own any revolver that uses gunpowder any more. :-)

[Tatume]

But seriously, although I own several S&W revolvers with the lock, I agree that the lock is at best absolutely worthless. It has no value, it adds nothing to the value of the gun, and I wish Bill Clinton had not put them on S&W revolvers.

[Ickisrulz]

The locks make the gun look ugly. That's why S&W photographs their guns on the right side for their website.

[Love Life]

Love Life, what do you call 13+1 if 8 is hell on wheels (If capacity is the critical issue in a carry gun)?



I call 13+1 legit. However, we are not discussing autos. We are discussing revolvers, and an 8 shot 357 magnum revolver is the bomb...when it is made well enough...not the TRR8.

Blasting 8 full snort 357 magnum loads is quite fun.

To summaraize:
13+1 in a auto loader is legit, but very ho hum since it is expected to have the higher capacity.
8 rds of 357 mag in a revolver is awesome because usually six is all you get.

Comparing apples to manatees will get us nowhere.

[dragon813gt]

I wish Bill Clinton had not put them on S&W revolvers.

So he made a private/public, not sure which they are, company put the lock on their firearms? Why didn't he make every gun manufacturer do this?

[Tatume]

So he made a private/public, not sure which they are, company put the lock on their firearms? Why didn't he make every gun manufacturer do this?

In order to pacify the Clinton administration, S&W entered into an agreement. You may see it here:

http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/html/20000317_2.html

Other manufacturers resisted and ultimately prevailed. S&W is under new ownership now, or I would not do business with them.

Take care, Tom

[dragon813gt]

He didn't make them. They willingly made the deal. There is a difference between the two. In fully aware of the history and S&W is who the blame lies on.

[Tatume]

Okay, glad I could help.

[Piedmont]

The last I knew, there hadn't been a single case that this had been brought up in....... Has this changed???? The simple fact is that if a prosecutor wanted to, he could "make you look bad" for getting out of bed in the morning.... Or at least try to.


Dan
It isn't just a prosecutor you have to worry about. Civil suits often follow. The opposing attorney will not put a bunch of gun people on the jury. So, yes, I am concerned how things will look to an average member of the jury. If you guys want to throw caution to the wind, it is your life.

[Tatume]

I wonder if the same liability results from choosing an earlier model of S&W revolver that does not have the lock? Could the civil attorney not argue that one decided to ignore the availability of an enhanced safety device?

[sargenv]

Anyone who says that the S&W with or without the lock is not made for high volume shooting has apparently never been to the IRC where these things are pretty much the prevalent choice of firearm used.. There might be one or two Rugers and a rare Python, but S&W revolvers are the dominant revolver for that sort of shooting game.. I have a pre-lock S&W 610 with over 100,000 rounds through it.. I know other people with various N and L frame revolvers with an equal or greater # of rounds through them.. Not made for high volume shooting? Puh-lease.. ;)

Now if it's a case of high volume heavy loaded revolver shooting (say Sillouette) well then maybe so.. but then a lot of those loads are pushing proof load territory.. nothing will last long under those conditions..

[Love Life]

Anyone who says that the S&W with or without the lock is not made for high volume shooting has apparently never been to the IRC where these things are pretty much the prevalent choice of firearm used.. There might be one or two Rugers and a rare Python, but S&W revolvers are the dominant revolver for that sort of shooting game.. I have a pre-lock S&W 610 with over 100,000 rounds through it.. I know other people with various N and L frame revolvers with an equal or greater # of rounds through them.. Not made for high volume shooting? Puh-lease.. ;)

Now if it's a case of high volume heavy loaded revolver shooting (say Sillouette) well then maybe so.. but then a lot of those loads are pushing proof load territory.. nothing will last long under those conditions..

Take a deep breath and calm down. I said the TRR8 wasn't built for it. I proved it when it gave up the ghost at right around 15,000 rds of 358477 loaded over 5 gr of unique. Slap worn out. Yes, S&W has a warranty, but I had already sent it in THREE times for warranty work. It was a PC gun and should have NO issues.

Now my S&W model 28's have digested a plethora of 38 special and 357 magnum loads with nary an issue. Those are fine guns and will still be shooting long after I am buried. I have bought many older model S&W revolvers since the TRR8 fiasco and have no issues throwing down greenbacks for another older revolver.

[enfieldphile]

IMMO, it comes down to individual pieces. I don't accept that the older guns were always built better.

I have many S&W revolvers. Two are equipped w/ locks. The locks have never malfunctioned.

I'll take either form w/o prejudice.

[redneckdan]

I've seen two seperate 329s lock up. That was proof enough for me. Any time you complicate a machine you reduce reliability.

[220swiftfn]

It isn't just a prosecutor you have to worry about. Civil suits often follow. The opposing attorney will not put a bunch of gun people on the jury. So, yes, I am concerned how things will look to an average member of the jury. If you guys want to throw caution to the wind, it is your life.

Easily addressed if ever brought up...... something along the lines of......

"did you intend to shoot him?" "yes"
"did you pull the trigger to shoot him?" "yes"
"why did you shoot him?" "because I was defending myself/others from iminent harm."

And........

"were you found justified in shooting?" "yes" (for the civil suit you fear....)


There's nothing about this that can't be negated in a justified shoot.......


Dan

[Piedmont]

None of this is simple. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant willfully deactivated a SAFETY MECHANISM on his pistol!He has no regard for human life." That can be in his summation. It may sound stupid to you, but you won't be on the jury.

Again, it is no skin off my nose what you do.

[gefiltephish]

These kinds of stupid arguments always crack me up. I think some of you guys must have spent faaaarrr too much time in front of the tv as kids.

[ole 5 hole group]

Where did you get the plug? I thought I remember Apex tactical selling something like that before but when I looked on their website recently I did not see it.ThanksFM

There's a fellow over on the S&W forum by the handle of Bullseye Smith that makes them - blue or stainless. I'll PM his e-mail address.

[220swiftfn]

None of this is simple. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant willfully deactivated a SAFETY MECHANISM on his pistol!He has no regard for human life." That can be in his summation. It may sound stupid to you, but you won't be on the jury.

Again, it is no skin off my nose what you do.

Well, if it's in the summation, it HAD to be addressed in the course of the trial, and already been debunked by YOUR lawyer and firearms expert explaining that a revolver with the lock removed is EXACTLY the same as a previous version of that model that was made without the lock....

Not "I removed the lock on my S&W 442, so now it'll blow up tanks and stuff".........


Dan

[FergusonTO35]

I have to wonder why S&W insists on putting a lock on revolvers but not on autos? They keep making wheel gun aficionados deal with the lock controversy but if you buy an M&P auto you don't have to worry about it.

I wouldn't turn down a good deal on a revolver with a lock, but I would definitely prefer one without it. Why? Because I will never use it! I think gun locks offer a false sense of security and are peddled as an alternative to safely storing and handling firearms. The mandate of integral locks on firearms in some places does nothing to improve safety. If a dummy will not safely store his or her firearms and ammo why would they bother to operate a lock? Or, if they do use the lock it is likely at the expense of safe gun storage and handling practices.

All these things do is provide the anti-gun crowd another way to harass gunmakers and owners through a phony concern for safety. I like S&W and their products but they need to at least offer every model without the lock so that safe and responsible gun owners don't have to put up with it and gun owning dummies don't use it instead of safely storing firearms.

[bob208]

I rank this argument about the lock right up there with don't use cast bullets or hand loads for self defense. all b.s.

now as for that safety lock. well if the pistol is not broke then don't try to fix it. and adding more moving parts is not fixing it. we live in an age where everything is suppose to be idiot proof. well I got a news flash it can not be done.