38/200 load

[Char-Gar]

I bought this Webley Mark IV about ten years ago because it was cheap ($125.00) but have never fired it. I have some original design 200 gr. .360 bullet coming. How much Bullseye would it take to duplicate the old British military load?

[Outpost75]

1.7 of Bullseye or 2.5 of Unique for 600 fps

[Char-Gar]

Thanks...so shall it be.

[Dale53]

In the early fifties, the local hardware store (which had a great gun section of used and new guns) they had these fine firearms for under $25.00 (lend lease WW II returns). I really wanted one but money was REALLY tight and I passed.

The loading data I have is pretty much what Outpost suggests and seems pretty conservative to me but these were never intended to be a "power house", I guess. The Lyman #4 Reloading Manual has some loads for the nearly 200 gr Lyman 358430 (weight listed at 195 grs).

At those modest velocities, my choice would be a hollow base wadcutter. The hollow base ought to expand enough to take the rifling well, and that wide meplat would give you about as good as this revolver is capable of.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[LouisianaMan]

Take a look at these two links for a lot of .38/200 info:

1.) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?191385-are-there-any-pocket-pistol-revolvers-snub-designed-to-shoot-ONLY-wadcutters&p=2132488#post2132488

2.) http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/171608-getting-serious-about-38-s-w.html

You have a fine pistol, and load data on the second link for a number of 200g loads I worked up, using 5 different bullet designs. Dale53 and others may wish to warn you (or ME!) away from the topic of 200g loads in .38 S&W. . . :-)

Enjoy!

PS: the Brits designed it to shoot at about 590-625 fps. My personal results indicate that their intent was to cause the bullet to penetrate a (soft) target, then tumble all the way through it, handily smashing bone and damaging tissue on its way. You can safely soup it up to at or near 700 fps to "hit harder", but it likely will delay the tumbling process upon penetrating the target. At certain angles, that might minimize the terminal effects, although a side-on shot through, say, a shoulder, it would really show off its design strengths.

[jumbeaux]

Nice revolver Reverend...a buddy had a Victory Model S&W in 38/200...I think he loaded with PB but cannot remember for sure...

rick

[Char-Gar]

I am looking forward to going to the range and "giving it a go" as the Brits say. I am wondering where one gets a pith helmet these days?

[Scharfschuetze]

Ought to be a hoot Char-Gar.

I used to take my Dad's Enfield No 2 revolver out to the woods or plains with me while growing up. If the sun was behind us, I'm positive that I could see the bullets fly to the target when my brother fired the revolver. It wasn't anywhere near a magnum, but it sure was fun and as it was DA only, I learned to shoot DA pretty well with it and that stood me in good stead later in life.

[LouisianaMan]

Re. the pith helmet. . .maybe Post Office surplus?

[Dale53]

Char-Gar;
I know you said that in jest. But-t-t, you did ask[smilie=1::

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/british-pith-helmet

Dale53

[Dale53]

I would like to make one caution to those wanting to load the .38 S&W. These are low pressure loads and, in my opinion, trying to use jacketed bullets is inviting a stuck bullet in the bore. Please stick to cast bullets with this caliber.

Just a caution...

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

The Webley-Enfield and a S&W M&P "Lend-Leaser" provide me with a tonne of funne :) in 38 S&W. Using the NEI #169A boolit designed to duplicate the service slug of the British Empire's 38/200 load, my top loads use 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco. These give the same 700 FPS that the 38 Special 200 grain Super Police loads yield. These loads are no Magnum by any stretch, but when I whack an iron dinger plate at 25 yards with them, there is no doubt that some OOMPH is getting transmitted. The 600-625 FPS loads aren't much softer-hitting, either.

If you have the c.-1986 RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 on hand, it shows a number of 38 S&W loads tailored to modern revolvers (S&W Model 33 x 4" was the test gun) that might be of use to the reloader. Just be mindful that my 38 S&W revolvers span throat dimensions of .359" in my Colt Police Positive to .3625" in my S&W M&P. Lyman makes a .363" H&I die as a regular-stock item, too.

One more curiosity of this oddball chambering.....the 200 grain bullets made to fit them are usually longer than the cases they fit into. E.g., my NEI #169A is .810", the 38 S&W case is .775".

[LouisianaMan]

Dale,
We're in agreement: cast bullets are the way to go in .38 S&W, for the reasons you indicate.

The tales I encountered of British & Colonial difficulties with their .38's and BIBs referred in every case to the jacketed 178g Mk 2 ammo. Admittedly, it replaced the 200g lead Mk 1 bullet very early in British service, and few users of the Mk 1 are still around to discuss it, but I believe the jacketed bullets were the true culprit. I believe the CIS ammo I tried, of Singapore manufacture, was about 75-100 fps faster than the original British service ammo, and it was probably an intentional alteration to overcome the BIB problem. That's likely the reason that British service revolvers and ammo were proofed to higher pressures than our ammo, and the latter included 200g bullets @ low 600's velocities. In other words, Mk 1 ammo had similar pressures to our Super Police round, and the pressure increase came about with the jacketed Mk 2.

My own experiments with jacketed .357 bullets were limited to lighter bullets, loaded hotter, and only nickel-plated .38 S&W casings could even be crimped enough to provide reliable neck tension. I shot these loads in S&W guns, not the larger-dimensioned British guns. Note that Ken Waters's 1979 "Pet Loads" article used a Ruger Service-Six .380 Rim for his extensive testing of jacketed bullets; I have a Speed-Six, and and it's tightly dimensioned and of course as tough as a tank.

Simply put, lead bullets will provide you a great margin of safety, but jacketed bullets operate on the edge where minor variations in the bullet, your barrel & chambers, or your powder charge could coincide and cause a problem.

[Outpost75]

I once had some Indian .380 Mk2z cartridges made in 1984 at the Kirkee Arsenal in Poona, which had been part of the government furnished material provided to Ruger for the India revolver order. I understand from Ed Harris, who wworked at Ruger at the time, that they went all around the barn with the Indian government inspectors about the chamber dimensions. They finally conducted a shoot-off of three revolvers, firing the K84 rounds until the guns quit working, a tight dimensioned Ruger, a loose Ruger manufactured assembled to the sloppy British dimensions, and a hand picked, museum quality WW2 Webley which the company had in its reference collection.

Both the "loose" Ruger and the Webley quit in less than 100 rounds with bullets stuck in their barrels. The "tight" Ruger had exceeded 1000 rounds with no malfunctions when the Indian Army Major who was their Quality Assurance Representative spoke up and said,

"Gentlemen, you have proved your point. I'll sign off on your revised drawings. The whisky at tonite's dinner is on me!"

And THAT is the way it happened.

[LouisianaMan]

Outpost,
Now that is simply an OUTSTANDING story that sheds some direct light on the issues at hand! Could you get Ed to write an article on that Ruger Indian contract? I'll frame it!

I'm going to pull out my Speed-Six manual and post a photo of the exact verbiage, with which they emphasized that the gun was for use with ball ammo only, or something similar. Back in a minute.

[Outpost75]

Outpost,
Now that is simply an OUTSTANDING story that sheds some direct light on the issues at hand! Could you get Ed to write an article on that Ruger Indian contract? I'll frame it!...I'm going to pull out my Speed-Six manual and post a photo of the exact verbiage, with which they emphasized that the gun was for use with ball ammo only, or something similar. Back in a minute.

The India revolvers were covered in the Ruger Collector's Assn. newsletter some years ago. Maybe somebody who has it could scan it.

[9.3X62AL]

My venturings with the 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev and the 9mm Luger taught me early in my reloading experience that dimensional poetry is to be expected in chambers--throats--lands & grooves--and componentry of many calibers. Trust NOTHING--measure EVERYTHING. The 38 S&W in its several ideations exemplifies this trait with a vengeance. Have Pin Gauges--Will Travel. Slugs & Micrometer, Too! :)

Those Ruger revolvers assembled for India and the Royal Hong Kong Police must be the toughest platforms ever assembled in 38 S&W caliber. I wouldn't mind having one of those examples.

[Outpost75]

Rugers in .380 Rimmed also went to Northern Ireland for their police

95082.

[LouisianaMan]

Here are a couple pics that show the Speed-Six, some of my handloads, and relevant warnings on ammo.

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/image-102.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/image-102.jpg.html)

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/image-103.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/image-103.jpg.html)

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/image-106.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/image-106.jpg.html)



http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/2d1dff95-27e0-4246-95c4-07fcded79273.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/2d1dff95-27e0-4246-95c4-07fcded79273.jpg.html)

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/image-108.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/image-108.jpg.html)

[LouisianaMan]

That would be great!

[Char-Gar]

a little Smith and Wesson factoid on those WWII M&Ps in 38/200 that went to England. S&W had a contract to develop and build a 9mm sub gun for the Brits, that never worked out well and S&W was on the hook for a bunch of money fronted them by the British govt. for R and D.

Carl Helstrom, convinced the Brits to take the M&Ps instead and got S&W off the hook. These handguns were imported back to the US in the 50s and 60s. Some were rechambered to 38 Special which was a very bad idea. Some were left in 38 S&W. If was common to find these with a bulge in the barrel due to a stuck bullet taking a hit from the next round.

[LouisianaMan]

Wow, another eye-opener! Never heard of that, though it makes perfect sense. What identifies it as Irish?
For that matter, I'll have to check the original packaging on mine, because I'm not sure where (or if) it specifies an India connection. I bought mine and a Service-Six as "Indian," and never questioned it. My main concern is the gun, though, for it's "top dog" in the .38 S&W world Had hoped to use them as a test bed for any loads that might be hot. . .unfortunately, however, its tight chambers prevent use with long-loaded SWC's, WC's, etc., in favor of long ogived, skinny nosed bullets.

[Outpost75]

Wow, another eye-opener! Never heard of that, though it makes perfect sense. What identifies it as Irish?
For that matter, I'll have to check the original packaging on mine, because I'm not sure where (or if) it specifies an India connection.

There wasn't any special marking indicating who the customer was. The India guns were no different from the Irish ones. The Northern Ireland guns may have been reproofed in UK before being shipped to their final destination. Birmingham proofs would be clue.

[bhn22]

I guess I'll jump in too. My first revolver was a lovely old S&W commercial M&P 38 S&W. It had been "converted" to 38 Spl at some dark point in its life. My first reloads were 158 gr .358 swaged bullets over 2.0 gr of Red Dot, done on a Lee Loader. I tried this load in both S&W & Spl cases. It was one of those instances where you could watch the bullet travel to the target if the light was right. Accuracy was actually pretty good, and the soft swaged bullets never leaded at all. They were probably going too slow down the barrel to lead (LOL). I loaded jacketed Hornady 158 Gr bullets with the same powder charge since I only had one Lee powder scoop. I remember shooting at marks on trees, and finding the bullets stuck about 1/2 inch into the tree. The bullets would bounce off harder trees. I finally moved up to a .357 mag Security Six after about a year, and the old S&W got sold off. I think it's about time for another one, it was so... innocent.