an odd experiance with red dot

[stephenj]

I braved the cold and snow today to shoot a few rounds with my uberti saa and had something happen i found to be very odd.
Using one of my fav loads of 5.5 grains of red dot and a lee 250 grain rnfp boolit (.45lc)
I had a few rounds sound and feel like a light charge ... being a nervouse nelly type i stopped shooting and went back in the house and started pulling a few boolits and weighing charges.

I randomly checked 25 charges ...all of them weighed between 5.3-5.5 grains ..exactly as all the loads i have loaded over 2 years now with the same dipper.

So i went back out and fi red another 50 rounds from the same batch of ammo..
Out of that50 at least 10 rounds felt and sounded like a noticably light charge.
As in light enough for me to pull the cylinder out and check the bore for a stuck bullet


I then pulled apart another 50 rounds from the same batch and found all charges to be right where they are supposed to be

What the heck can cause this .... the hammer strikes the primer plenty hard ... and its the same batch of powder and primers i have been using.

[RED333]

Any chance the powder got damp?
I really dont have any idea.

[RickinTN]

I'm not sure about Red Dot but I can tell you about some of my experiences. I shoot a lot of clay targets and sometimes in cold weather (20 to 30 degrees F). Some of our target ammo will give "blooper" loads in this kind of temperature. I have begun storing my ammo in my house or hotel room overnight before a tournament in such weather to help avoid this. Some powders are more temperature sensitive than others it appears, and my guess is that Red Dot may be one of these powders, though this is the first I have heard of it. Hopefully some others with more experience with Red Dot in cold temps will come along with further info.
Take care,
Rick

[44man]

It is the cold. Long ago I used RD in shot shells and I could tell a difference when it got cold.
Been running into it with 296 for years in the .44. Groups open in winter, always did. Tested mag primers a bunch of times and it just made things worse.
I never fooled with it much because I was just deer hunting in the winter and do most gun work when it is warm.
However, the other day I added 1/2 gr more powder and groups went back to 1" at 50 yards so I will next add powder to my other boolit loads and see what happens. Looks like it works and will have winter and summer loads from now on.
See if a tad more RD will cure it.

[44man]

I forgot to mention to not shoot too hot a load with RD in the heat. I don't know what book max is with what you are shooting.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, the cold.......living in NE Oregon for 18 years back in the '70s & ;80s I discovered the same thing. RD was a favorite powder of mine for target level loads (same 5.5 under a 240 gr cast) loads in my .44. in sub freezing weather the bloopers appeared. Just to cold to get RD to ignite and burn efficiently. Switched back to Bullseye and the problem went away.

Larry Gibson

[Old School Big Bore]

I have had lots of problems with variable pressures/velocities with Red Dot. Since some RD loads are fairly light I suspect that they are prone to positioning variations as well as the cold-temp problems cited. Wear your revolver under your parka and carry your hunting rounds in an ammo wallet under your warmies til you get on/in your stand/blind. Then keep your mittened support hand around the cylinder til you lift the gun for a shot. Last time I hunted in severe cold, in an exposed position, I just kept the M29 under the armpit of my ghillie suit, and all the layers I was wearing kept the gun & ammo warm enough that my 296 loads worked fine.

[stephenj]

Well i am happy the general concensus is its just the cold .
The thought of throwing away about 5lbs of powder just wasnta good feeling .

Rather then change a load that works well for me i think i will just switch back to unique untill warmer weather arrives

[RED333]

OK, so I learned me something today, thanks guys.

[prs]

I was not aware of RD being cold stubborn. Unique is cold reliable. I read a post claiming Green Dot to become more potent in cold, but I am skeptical of that. I have experienced 800X as being cold stubborn.

prs

[35remington]

I also am not aware of Red Dot being cold sensitive........it certainly isn't any more cold sensitive or harder to ignite than Bullseye when I've used it, including light charges of circa 3 grains or so used in rifle cases.

Thus the advice to switch to something else is less relevant than the advice to up the charge. When pressures are already low, they get lower with cold.

Don't bank on Unique being the cure for the problem if velocities are comparable to the Red Dot loads. It is no more "cold proof" than Red Dot is, and singling Red Dot out as "cold sensitive" is an entirely erroneous understanding of how powders of this sort work in cold weather. All of these powders are sensitive to cold weather if pressures are low.

Red Dot is not particularly hard to ignite, and is in fact faster than Bullseye.

Further, remember that Red Dot is recommended in low pressure applications of only 8,000 psi, and in some loads often less, when used in shotshells. So its ballistic consistency at low pressures compares favorably to many of the alternatives.

Up the charge a bit. No reason to go away from it.

[35remington]

Interestingly, Gil Sengel, in the most recent issue of Handloader, refuses to use Bullseye in the 32 S and W Long due to "loads that sounded lighter than they should."

Hmm. I think he's mistaken, but the point is that perceptions are sometimes hard to refute even if erroneous. I would forgo neither Red Dot nor Bullseye in cold weather. They are similar in application.

Reasonable pressures are the entry requirement for consistent ammunition, and reasonable ballistic consistency results when said reasonable pressures are present.

In low temps and with unsuitable powder/shot weight combinations, bloopers occur, exacerbated by the combination of low pressure and cold temperature. In shotguns, that is. Loads that run a mere 8,000 psi or less don't help.

You are experiencing the same thing. Reasonable ballistic consistency requires reasonable pressures. If you'd loaded a 160 RNFP over the same charge, as is so popular with the cowboy action mouse fart crowd, you'd really see low pressures and inconsistency. Bullseye wouldn't help you there. Wide spreads in velocity would also be apparent, along with sooted cases.

BTDT.

[44man]

Powders are affected. My 296 loads are near or at max but cold does slow the velocity and is why there are "extreme" powders now.
There might be a few that increase velocity in cold weather but they are few-very few. That will change as calibers change too.
Could you imagine a list of each load, each caliber for every powder for every load amount?

[DanWalker]

In my 45LC's I have for many years shot a 250 grain SWC over 6.5 grains of Red Dot and have never had any issues with it at ANY temp I have shot in. In Wyoming, those temps range from low teens,(I don't go shoot in subzero weather) to well over 100 degrees. I'm in agreement with others here. You need to up your charge.

[stephenj]

I have to admit my reluctance to up the red dot charge stems from pure lazyness.
The 5.5 grain charge shoots to my sights and if i up the chargeit shoots low ...
And i do already have a unique charge that shoots to the sights and i have used it in cold weather without any issues.
But thanks to you fellows i do have a much better understanding of whats going on.

[prs]

The solution, real black powder ;-)

My personal experience with cold stubborn smokeless powder was with 800X in near maximum published charge under 1oz payload 16ga at or below, 0°F. VERY similar rounds charged wth Unique performed without noticeable detriment. Not sure if same applies to metalic cartridge. It is to be at or close to 0°F tomorrow, but I have to work.

prs

[35remington]

If the Unique load is working to deliver its bullets to POA, then that is the load to go with. Just stating that such results should not lead one to the conclusion that Unique is a better cold weather or low pressure powder than Red Dot. It is not.

The basic formulation of the two powder is the same, and at comparable speeds Red Dot runs to higher pressure, which means superior cold weather performance for Unique over Red Dot if said speeds are comparable is not in the cards.

Almost all powders can be run outside of their sensible ranges if little enough is used, including handguns, rifle or shotgun. Or if the wrong combinations are tried.

[44man]

Many, many powders are the exact some formula, they change the shape and coatings for different rates.
Of course there are many formulations too and even those are used to span burn rates by changing shapes.

[Walter Laich]

I use the same load 5.5 RD for 250 RNFP Lyman (not Lee) bullet for my Marlin 1894 (SASS shooting)
.
The past two months noticed a few seemed to have a lighter recoil than others. Temperatures were at or below freezing--must say fun was had by all.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Years ago we were hunting grouse, mid winter cold. So cold that the firing pins would not hit primers hard enough.

That day we found that the shot shells didn't fire at full power.

We thought is was the warm to super cold air. Moister condensation inside plastic hulls. ??

It was well cold out like -5.

[Firebricker]

I have heard of Blue Dot giving erratic results in very cold temps in shot shell loads. Makes me wonder if it is along the lines .44 Man brings up of same or very similar powder with different coatings to alter burn rate. Now this is a question not a suggestion but would a magnum primer help if shooting that load in real cold weather or would it make pressures go way up ? FB

[35remington]

Not needed, ever, with Red Dot. It is considered an easy to ignite powder and if pressures are low in cold weather ignition isn't the issue....the charge weight is. Red Dot bulks well for the charge weight.

Magnum primers help with heavily deterred ball powders like W296 or H110 in pistol cartridges, especially in cold weather. Red Dot isn't one of those types. It is one of the fastest powders available.

[44man]

I have heard of Blue Dot giving erratic results in very cold temps in shot shell loads. Makes me wonder if it is along the lines .44 Man brings up of same or very similar powder with different coatings to alter burn rate. Now this is a question not a suggestion but would a magnum primer help if shooting that load in real cold weather or would it make pressures go way up ? FB
No, not in the least. The primer can move the boolit out before good ignition and at least every test I have made with the .44 has shown triple group sizes in ANY weather with a mag primer.
I have not found a mag primer in the .44 to raise pressures and even max loads with them will not stick brass or have a different look to primers. What makes them worse in small cases like the .44 mag is additional pressure without fire before the boolit moves.
Primers CAN raise pressures in certain calibers or shot shells because they can ignite too much powder at once but the key is the size of the brass in the .44, it is not large enough to absorb the pressure and will force the powder away from the flash hole to push the boolit.
Watch when a bomb is set off in slow motion, see the pressure wave going out to bust up stuff? But the fire is at the bomb only. There is not a single flame at the pressure wave front.
It is the reason to never download 296 or H110. Airspace when powder is pushed too far from the flash hole to ignite. Ball powder has a coating that needs burned through but there is not enough fire and heat if airspace is increased. That is why a mag primer is worse then a standard in the .44.
Fire at the base of powder is better then blasting pressure through the powder column.