Respect your elder..or not

[DeanWinchester]

A fella came in the shop recently. We talk about guns some and I asked if he'd been shooting much. He works for a large farm and has a lot of liberty there. Well, he proceeds to tell me that a neighbor complained about the guys shooting and wants them to stop. He has no legal footing to make such a request but he's an old guy who's "emotionally bothered" by gun fire.
Heres where it gets interesting. He's a WWII veteran........but he's a German. Yep, he fought for the Germans.
Now the Christian in me says if it offends your brother, don't do it. The red blooded American in me says this guy fought (and likely killed Americans) for a Jew slaughtering tyrant. ...and a long string of expletives to go with. He can go jump off a cliff.

I have no dog in the hunt, I don't shoot there and never will but I thought it very interesting and discussion worthy.

Thoughts?

[DeanWinchester]

The devil on my shoulder says host a WWII reenactment there. See how he likes a hour or two of M1 Garands & fields of green fatigues.

[wallenba]

It's hard to know what's in a man like that. He may not have been a Nazi. Many were just average men caught up in a situation and had to serve. He's on our soil, so we must assume he was allowed to immigrate (not an undesirable). PTSD may affect him. He has the right to complain, but that's all.
I worked for many years with a man who fled Lithuania. He served in the Red Army, conscripted by the Soviets whom he despised. He had no choice, and was trained to kill Americans.
Today, he's a good friend.

[HeavyMetal]

think I'd take a tad different approach to this and let's all remember we are on the outside looking in at this.

First, pending size direction and all other geographic issues it might be best to simply relocate the shooting area. without seeing the terrain it's just a thought that might not be feasible.

second might be possible to work out a specific time to use the shooting area which won't bother the guy next door as much.

Having said all that this could go from just a small problem to who the heck knows what, LOL! Had a range, San Gabrial gun club, that had a 75 year history shut down by a cranky neighbor who's original request was for the range to not start shooting until after 10 on a Sunday morning.

Someone at the range got hard nosed, the complainee got a lawyer and now no one works at the range any more....and a great shooting facility is closed...likely forever.

As for our German complainer? He could just be a jerk, or he could be one of those kids that got shoved into service at the end of the war against his will.

In that case I can see gun fire giving him problems.

My thoughts on the complainer are all guess work but the fact remains he has some type of issue. What happened in the past needs to stay in the past and fixing the current problem for him, if it's possible, may go a long way for us as shooters and the shooting sports in general.

Hopefully some one has stepped up at this farm to solve or address the problem, the shooting public gets a black eye every time some punk goes on a rampage shouldn't we expend the time to try and show not all gun owners are jerks and murder's?

I'll get off my soap box now.

[nicholst55]

Invite your neighbor over to shoot. If he comes, discuss what his issues are and see if you can accommodate him. If he declines, go over to his house and discuss the situation with him. Being a hard-a$$ seldom gets anyone anywhere that they want to be.

[bikerbeans]

I wish my old friend June was still alive as I would ask him for his opinion. He had the "pleasure" of being in one of the first US Army units attacked by the Germans at the Bulge. He spent 18 months in hospitals in England & the USA and could never use his right arm again.

BB

[Murphy]

I second what Heavymetal had to say about it.

Not everybody was asked to be born in a war torn country. My father in law is a WWII Veteran. I took him out to dinner 3 years ago one night for Veteran's Day. As we sat there, he started to speak about the war. In the middle of his second sentence, I noticed he was starting to tremble all over and tears easing out the corners of his eyes. He stopped talking just long enough to wipe the tears away and muttered..'Damn war'. There was no further discussion about the war. He's known by many as one of the kindest old gentlemen in our town.

I'd go with the most diplomatic approach possible and send a few guys over to talk with the man. See if there is anything that can be done to make things a little easier on him. Just that alone, may provide him with more comfort and reasurance than anything. Knowing that the club cares, but isn't going to completely halt shooting activities.

Murphy

[archmaker]

He is complaining, that is his right to do so, heck look at the majority of us on this board, we complain about Obama. :-D

Just remember that perspective is always different, England refers to the American Revolution as the "War of the Insurrection". He served his country, and you should respect that, he was man enough to do so, just like we respect those individuals that in the US that serve their country. Do you believe that every soldier that in the US armed forces right now agrees with Obama . . . , but they still sign up and they still serve, and I for one am very proud of those individuals.

Evidently, he served his country, and then decided it was better to come to America, you have to wonder why he choose to do so.

[9w1911]

I would go over there with an apple pie, invite him to shoot with you if he please. See if you can work something out

[Bad Water Bill]

I will NEVER forget the time I took my blushing young bride to a movie after a trip to a good restaurant.

In the course of the movie they showed the bombing of somewhere in Poland during WW2,

Yes Ilse was born in Essen Germany in 1936 and had spent a good part of her youngr years running to and in bomb shelters.

As soon as the first bomb started whistling down the whole meal was lost everywhere.

Yes even after many years some sounds can still bring back STUFF we thought was safely buried.

Yes they did force 14 year olds to the front lines.

Not making any excuses just telling what I have actually seen.

Your OLD German vet may be having the same flashbacks.

I would not wish that on any one.

[Mumblypeg]

Try to compromise without giving in. I try not to shoot at my house on Sundays although others in the area do. I have also asked my neighbors if my shooting bothers them and if it does to just let me know and we will work something out. Only one complains. a woman at the end of the road, farthest from the house in the immediate neighborhood.(She's complaining now that my dog pees on her tires, and yea he does...goes there to play with her dog.) She tends to complain about everything and never seems to be happy. My complaint is motorcycles..... No mufflers and you can hear them for miles. Much farther than gunfire.... yet no one complains!!!!!!! Anyway... if you can't make him happy, make yourself happy.... maybe he will get used to it.... I'm getting too old to really care what they think as they don't care what bothers me.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'd try to make friends with this German immigrant.
If that fails...well, I would won't worry about his feelings, but I would NOT be breaking any laws in regards to target shooting on private land next to him either.

It'd be curious to know why he came to the US, and if he has become a US citizen and what he thinks of the 2nd amendment.

[country gent]

Heres a little diffrent "spin" on the nieghbors status. During ww1 and ww2 many german and italian POWS were interned at US military bases stateside. Grayling, Camp Perry, Atterberry ( i think) were all some that had hutments and POWS there, These men worked for area buisnesses farmers and others. He may have Stayed instead of going home. Most lived in better conditions as POWs than as citezens back home. Most didnt want to return home.This gentleman may have been one of these people. Working with Him may be a big plus in the long run. Its not always easy but it is alot better to come to a mutual agreement that works for everyone. The local club here had an issue several years ago with a nearby church. Parishers coming for second service were hearing the rapid fires from the match at the club. Starting 1/2 hour later negated this issue and also made for better light for the match. Talk to im work a little back and forth see what can be done.

[DeanWinchester]

As I've said, I have no interest in the matter. He's just an acquaintance.

His solution has been to stop shooting there alltogether and move elsewhere. No big deal to him. I just thought it interesting enough to discuss.

There's multiple facets to this scenario. Respecting a man that, in all honesty won't be around too many more years anyway. Being kind and loving.
Another, is an immigrant barking about a born citizen exercising his rights.

In the end, the best was done for sure. All parties are satisfied and at peace. That's more important than anything. But there is this little nagging jerk inside that's a bit aggrevated by it.
Thankfully, I wasn't faced with it. BUT again, this is how things change. Small chips that slowly erode away what this country was. People are forever complaining about what others are doing and demand they stop to satisfy themselves.

[TXGunNut]

In my part of the country it's unreasonable to expect to live in a rural area and be offended by gunfire. Can't recall a day spent outside when I didn't hear a shot and some nights a varmint apparently needs shooting. If your friend doesn't shoot that doesn't mean another neighbor won't. I have an intense dislike for crowds and heavy traffic but I endure them now and then, but choose to live in a semi-rural area to avoid them. If I were offended by gunfire I woldn't buy a place in the country, guns are a part of the rural lifestyle. Your friend's neighbor has made a mistake in his choice of home location, it's not up to your friend to correct it.

[snowwolfe]

I find it amazing the guy is still up and moving around. He has to be around 90, or older.

Me, I would politely tell him it is my land and I am free to shoot on it as much as I want and do so in a safe manner and during day light hours. Would offer the olive branch and invite him over just to see what happens. We all seen it before and unfortunately a lot of people develop different personalities as they grow old.

[starmac]

My thinking is pretty much the same as TXGunNuts, if gunfire truly bothers him, why would he be living in a rural area. I personally have a hard time with people thinking they can dictate what someone does on their own property, regardless of age, religion or any other reason. It is all fine and dandy to say move to the other side of the property to shoot, what happens when someone moves in close to that side that doesn't like it, do you move back, stop altogether, or what.

[wv109323]

I respect all American veterans of WW2, they had it tough. But look at it from a German prospective. America lost around 560,00 troops in the war on three major theaters. Germany lost 23 million citizens and soldiers in WW2. Plus many,many more in POW camps of Russia plus life in Germany in post WW2 was miserable to say the least. I don't know what this guy was exposed to during the war but it could have been traumatic. Gun fire may well bring back flashbacks.
I would talk to the guy and see if there is a solution. You may arrange times that you could shoot and he wear headphones listening to an audio book or music. Music or a book may well be soothing to him and greatly appreciated.
I reckon the rub to me is that he is in the USA enjoying our peace and liberty that is possible only because of the military men that paid the ultimate price in time of war.
I would first try a solution and get some feel for the situation. If he is just grouchy and unreasonable I would fire away. I don't know how to put my next thought into words but if he is a WW2 veteran he does not have too many more years. There are few WW2 veterans in good health.
In my church we always honor the veterans on their day. Years ago there was 20-30 veterans of WW2. Now only 2. One is unable to attend services and the other is in failing health.

[uscra112]

I'd be as kind that old gent as I could be, as long as he was civil. Probably 80% of Germans who were in the army were suckered into it by appeals to patriotism, or more likely just couldn't evade the draft.

[Blacksmith]

The man is a vet, from which army has little to do with it. He served his country when called upon just as our vets served our country. Ask what would you do if it was a American WW II vet or Vietnam vet that had issues with gunfire. If you want to be hard nose with him because of who he fought for you are saying it is alright for every country we ever fought against to be just as hard nose with our vets that live in or visit their countries. As a vet I don't need to take out past wars against those who fought them, I may not choose to be their friend (my choice) but I will hold against no man his honorable service to his country. Any who did not serve with honor are no different than common criminals anywhere.

Go meet with the man discuss the situation and try to reach an equitable accommodation.

[swamp]

My feeling is this. Respect is earned. Just getting old doesn't earn others respect. You do that by your actions and deeds. Doen't matter how old you are.

I am 62.

swamp

[starmac]

[QUOTE=swamp;2585175]My feeling is this. Respect is earned. Just getting old doesn't earn others respect. You do that by your actions and deeds. Doen't matter how old you are.

I am 62.

Exactly how I feel, but I tend to hate to see people disrespecting the elderly just because they can, it just wasn't how I was raised. I will respect the elderly until they give me a reason not to, and even then I have known people to change when they got old, that I still highly respected because I knew how they lived their life up to that point.

[MaLar]

That's what came to mind right away I agree with you. Always respect your elders. You don't know their past.

[swamp]

I treat people the way I expect to be treated. I will change attitude accordingly. I try to be civil to everyone untill they choose to to give me reason to do otherwise. It is there choice.

[MaryB]

Had someone here in town complain about the pheasant hunters along the old railroad right of way. Out of city limits so town cop has no jurisdiction. Yet he went over and harassed the hunters about shooting when they were totally legal. They finally told him to tell the old lady to bad, they were legal, pheasant season isn't that long and put up with it. Even had a game warden come and tell the town cop to leave them alone

[OBIII]

Communication is always the key. Can't say who's right and who's wrong in this instance (or even if anyone is right or wrong), but talking would be the only way to find out. Maybe it's the hours, maybe it's his health and mental state, it must be something. Until the "issue" is known and understood, you can either capitulate or fire at will. (Hope his name is not Wilheim).
Discussion is not abrogating your rights under the Constitution.

OB

[WilliamDahl]

I'm of the opinion that compromise is what got us into our current situation with respect to the loss of much of our 2nd Amendment rights. We need to stand up for the absoluteness of our 2nd Amendment rights. Compromise is a 4-letter word as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, just because a person is old, it doesn't mean that we should respect them. A person could be an a--hole and idiot when he is young -- what makes people think that he automatically gains wisdom when he gets old?

[Bad Water Bill]

The next time you ask me to compromise Mr president I will ask you to accept and live by MY new compromise FIRST.

#1 You will be ALLOWED to breath oxygen ONLY on the 2nd and 4th weeks of the even # months.

#2 Breathing will only be permitted between the hours of 0000 and 0400.

#3 You must provide proof of insurance in the amount of (to be determined at later date). Remember WE had to sign off on one like that also. What is good for you is good for me sight unseen.

#4 These new rules will take effect immediately upon passage.

#5 These laws will apply to EVERYONE that has attempted to pass a law,restriction etc that violates the constitution as specifically written word for word by our founding fathers.

#6 After providing proof that you have met these compromise laws for a period of AT LEAST 6 months we will CONSIDER listening to your proposals.

What say ye fellow Americans?

[jonp]

If the guy has permission from the farms owner to shoot then I would not stop doing so. He might tell the neighbor what times he is going to target practice so the guy can go into town to shop or something so he doesn't have to listen to it but unless the shooting is at 0300 its too bad for the neighbor if it bothers him. I would not stop doing a legal activity on my property because it bothered someone else. I would try and work with him/her to find a solution but would not stop. This is called being a good neighbor and just because he complained to you it is no reason to immediately go off the deep end and take a "my way" stance without at least trying to talk with him first.

As for the guy being a Nazi. I have a friend that fought for Germany and was a Nazi. He lives here now and is a US Citizen. One Christmas my girlfriend and I were at his house and after a few Jagermeisters he started telling up a little of what went on in Germany when he was growing up. The gist of it is that he grew up going to Government schools and got indoctrinated with the Party Line. It was all he heard due to school, media censorship and propaganda so he did not know any better until he came here after the war.
He also fought on the Russian Front and was at Stalingrad. A couple of the stories he told about that made your hair stand up on end.
He is one of the nicest guys you want to meet and the stories he has about that time should be written down so they are never lost to history, that is if you can get him to tell them. He, like most of our WW2 Vets, do not tell the stories that often.

He loves this country and although has a family Castle in Germany, yes an actual castle which he has pictures of, he visits once a year but will not live there again. He is an American through and through.

[DeanWinchester]

I don't believe the guy is a nazi. To hear my buddy tell of him, I doubt that very seriously. Nazism is a choice not a bloodline.

[DRNurse1]

Excellent discussion, and it points out many of the conundrums facing us as we move forward.

I respect our veterans service, but honestly have not given much thought to the service of the opposing forces. I heard no shots fires in anger during my service, and the failure of our current opposing forces to honor a uniform makes the current opposition dishonorable in my view. The fellow in the OP was likely a conscript in a war not of his choosing and elected to stay in this country so may be presumed to see the advantage here. I think this is worthy of respect and I hope I would choose to talk over the situation with the fellow if it presented this way to me.

I am saddened that the shooter in the OP chose to move rather than take the opportunity for forge a new firearm friendship (best outcome) or at least hear the opposing view, hope his view could be heard, and maybe come to a working agreement. Too often we walk away rather that address (confront???) those that 'infringe' on our 'inalienable' right. Heck, I did that at work recently, so I understand the feeling, and thoughts, and motivation to avoid the discussion. But maybe we need to deal with our discomfort and have that discussion anyway.

[Col4570]

Just give him a little respect for his age,He is not likely to invade Poland or anything.

[AkMike]

What about telling him the hours that shooting will be going on and build a sound deadening fence and provide him with ear plugs or muffs?