Bore or Groove?

[seekersoftheredmist]

First off let me say thanks to all those who have been helping me get into the paper patching. many have sent pms and have steared me into some great direction and for that im truly thankful.Calaloo was extra helpful and it speaks volumes of the brotherhood and fellowship we have here on this site. I started rolling some last week and im hooked already! :) the question i have is: i have read and sampled several diff folks' boolits and some patch to groove and some to bore. is there one more accepted "right" way than the other? OR, is it just a preference of your gun? thanks for the additional help!

[country gent]

Randolph S. Wrights Book Loading and shooting the Paper patched bullet A Beginners Guide gets into this some It is very good help starting out. I patch to bore dia normally , although I have access to a brooks mold that wraps to groove dia. I have done both ways. Bore dia allows a little more powder in the case than groove dia does. Alot also depends on the throat of the rifle. Alot patch to throat dia with the longer throats. Experminent with diffrent bullets and patch paper see what works for you.

[Don McDowell]

It's mostly a choice of what you and your rifle want to do. You'll just have to judge for yourself, and of course use all the targets these helpful folks of the brotherhood sent you off line with them iddybiddy groups and all.

[montana_charlie]

is there one more accepted "right" way than the other? OR, is it just a preference of your gun?
Actually, it does depend on your gun.
The Old Dead Guys shot bullets patched to bore diameter, but that depended on the fact that their guns would not chamber a groove-size bullet. So, there was no choice.
If you have a rifle chambered with modern dimensions, the groove diameter bullet is the 'natural' choice because everything fits without any special accomodations.

CM

[Don McDowell]

I'm not so sure that bit about those original rifles not taking groove diameter bullets is quite right. Specifically if you look at rifles chambered for the US Springfield 45 caliber. The government spec on that bullet was a .458 diameter, and even Sharps claims their rifles will accept that ammunition....

[montana_charlie]

I'm not so sure that bit about those original rifles not taking groove diameter bullets is quite right.
Were any of those Trapdoors being loaded with paper patched bullets?

As for the Sharps chambers, check with Orville Loomer.
Doesn't Shiloh now offer a 'paper patch chamber' with a neck diameter of .472"?

CM

[Don McDowell]

What difference would the paper patch bullet in the trapdoor make? .458 is .458 doesn't matter if it's all lead or part lead covered by paper... Yes the Sharps 45-70 chambers were cut to accept US ammo, they were trying very hard for the War Dept contracts, and some state militia's armored themselves with the Borchardt...
Lots of stuff coming to light that was supposed to be gospel fact , turns out we've been fed a line of bs...

[montana_charlie]

What difference would the paper patch bullet in the trapdoor make?
It would make a difference in what I tell people, if the military was using paper patched ammunition in their Trapdoors rifles.
I doubt that was the case, but ...

Since this IS about paper patching, that trapdoor cowpie was just a distraction thrown in to cloud the water ... no?

CM

[Don McDowell]

No it was thrown in to help maybe shed some light on the way things really were, instead of the same old regurgitated bogus bs, some are prone to keep spreading.
The grease groove diameter of the trapdoor bullet was specified at .458, Sharps, Remington, Winchester and Ballard rifles all were capable of chambering that round. So much for the bullspit about the original rifles not able to chamber a groove diameter bullet, NO?

[montana_charlie]

We're done screwing around, seekersoftheredmist.

If you have further questions, lay 'em out.

CM

[Red River Rick]

Frustrating isn't it! Kinda like talking to the wall.

RRR

[Lead pot]

:grin: I shoot the PP 4 ways :grin: Below bore, bore, between bore and groove and groove, even above groove at times in modern chambers and the old lead bullet chambers of the late 1800rds and they will reach the target whatever it might be in Trapdoors or the falling blocks. Shoot your rifle and see what works best. There is no just one way.

[seekersoftheredmist]

ok i slugged my bore in the 38-55 Taylors Highwall and got . 373 bore and 379 groove. Is this normal and what are yall paper patching up to? thanks for the help fellers!

[Nobade]

Well, in my H&R 38-55 I use a .366" slick patched to .373" since I have the same bore size as you do. (.381" groove) It shoots really well, at least as far as it can with me pulling the trigger. It holds 51gr. of powder, a LDPE wad and a .187" grease cookie with a card wad on top. Boolit is in the case about .100". Oh, using Accurate Mold's 290gr. design.

-Nobade

[Don McDowell]

ok i slugged my bore in the 38-55 Taylors Highwall and got . 373 bore and 379 groove. Is this normal and what are yall paper patching up to? thanks for the help fellers!

You might want to do a chamber cast. The Taylors 38-55 I had the chamber was large enough to shoot a .375 diameter bullet wrapped in 9# paper. At least doing it that way the leading problems quit. It also used the long chamber so current Winchester brass is quite a bit short.

[Don McDowell]

Frustrating isn't it! Kinda like talking to the wall.

RRR

Yes it is, some folks just continue to spue stuff that just doesn't line up with with what really was/is, and won't even lift a finger to do the simple basic research to find the answer.

[Nobade]

You might want to do a chamber cast. The Taylors 38-55 I had the chamber was large enough to shoot a .375 diameter bullet wrapped in 9# paper. At least doing it that way the leading problems quit. It also used the long chamber so current Winchester brass is quite a bit short.

Good point - if the chamber is big enough to admit a larger boolit, it'll likely shoot better with one. The little H&R only takes a .374" boolit in a fired case.

-Nobade

[Don McDowell]

Nobade, I've read a lot about the troubles folks have been having with those 38-55's , and I'm wondering if those things weren't chambered with a Ballard chamber, intended for patched bullet shooting only? But nobody ever mentions the lead angle on those chambers just that they are to tight for regular bullets..
After reading a number of different sources of the time period, it's really starting to look like the Creedmoor and midrange guns quite possibly were chambered differently than the "sporting" rifles, and until Winchester coopted the 38-55 for the model 94, that cartridge was the darling of the midrange boys.

[Huvius]

Good point - if the chamber is big enough to admit a larger boolit, it'll likely shoot better with one. The little H&R only takes a .374" boolit in a fired case.

-Nobade

That is pretty much where I try to get to with my patched boolit, that is, to get to the patched diameter which fits the fired case and the chamber the best.
FWIW, I shoot a 461Gibbs which has a .461" bore and the chamber will not allow for a bullet any larger than .461". I guess this is what would be considered "tight chambered" today.
It is Metford rifled and I never slugged it simply because the groove diameter is moot since I cannot chamber a round with that large a boolit anyway.

[montana_charlie]

That is pretty much where I try to get to with my patched boolit, that is, to get to the patched diameter which fits the fired case and the chamber the best.
FWIW, I shoot a 461Gibbs which has a .461" bore and the chamber will not allow for a bullet any larger than .461". I guess this is what would be considered "tight chambered" today.
It is Metford rifled and I never slugged it simply because the groove diameter is moot since I cannot chamber a round with that large a boolit anyway.
What you are doing should be just right for that rifle ... if your bullet alloy is soft enough to let the bullet bump up into the grooves.

With the right paper, I bet my .454" bullet would work well in your gun ...

CM

[Nobade]

Nobade, I've read a lot about the troubles folks have been having with those 38-55's , and I'm wondering if those things weren't chambered with a Ballard chamber, intended for patched bullet shooting only? But nobody ever mentions the lead angle on those chambers just that they are to tight for regular bullets..
After reading a number of different sources of the time period, it's really starting to look like the Creedmoor and midrange guns quite possibly were chambered differently than the "sporting" rifles, and until Winchester coopted the 38-55 for the model 94, that cartridge was the darling of the midrange boys.

The chamber in it looks exactly like the SAAMI spec 38-55 chamber. Very tight neck, and a gentle angle into the rifling with no step at the end of the chamber. It is perfectly dimensioned for using with PP boolits and black, and pretty much useless with hard boolits and smokeless. When I saw how these rifles are chambered, I jumped on the first one I found and haven't regretted it. They are really fun when loaded like they are designed to be, but I can understand folk's frustration with them since most people want to shoot lubricated grooved bullets and smokeless powder.

-Nobade

[Don McDowell]

Nobade, thanks for the clarification on that HR chamber. Yup I bet even as tight as that chamber is, smokeless and patched might work well enough. But not many folks want to put the time and effort in to make a patched bullet work properly.

[mikeym1a]

I'm new to patching, and only have one reference book, 'The Paper Jacket', by Paul Matthews. Having read the book several times, I think I understand this much. If wrapping pure lead for BP shooting, wrap it to bore size. The sudden impulse of the BP going off 'upsets' the boolit into the grooves. He stated that if he used smokeless under the same circumstances, then the boolit did not upset, and accuracy suffered. For smokeless he said to size the boolit to .001 over the bore size, and wrap to .001-.002 over groove size, lightly lube the patch, and size to groove, and then shoot. It seems to make sense to my limited mind. I've gotten better at wrapping, and am awaiting the return of temperate weather so I can get back to the range, to see if my understanding and efforts have paid off. :-D

[bigted]

i have found success in both arenas ... however my best has yet been with a groove diameter patched boolit. what i find to work best is to patch up to .001 to .0015 over groove or to patch large enough so that the patched boolit finger seats in the un-sized case ... therefore patch to the throat and seat so the boolit kisses the rifling. it works with both blackpowder and smokeless.

now this approach takes up a horrendous amount of precious case room when shooting blackpowder AND the fouling has got to be contended with in every pull of the trigger ... but it works and works well.

i can get fair hunting accuracy with patching up to bore diameter ... and the great thing about this is the ability to have the most room in the case for powder AND you get to start the boolit into the rifling for a greatly stabilized start but ... i have yet to make this style the best in accuracy in any rifle. but then i skip around a lot with my loading and have not spent the time on the bore diameter that some have here. THEY are the ones to pick the brain with to determine your best coarse of action with the patch to bore boolits.

good luck and i look forward to your reports on your experimentation.

[Huvius]

I was under the impression that part of the idea behind patching up to bore diameter was maintaining the ability to shoot a number of shots without swabbing the barrel.
Otherwise, after a few, you would find difficulty in chambering another round due to fouling.

Was there any requirement in a particular type of match shooting which required multiple shots between swabbing? Perhaps Military Breech Loader matches?