Lee dies and a 280AI ???

[Harter66]

1st off this is the the 2nd ''radical'' reforming job.......or 4th maybe more. I really never thought that a 280AI from 30-06 would be a radical reform but I guess I was mistaken.

Lee states for the 280AI die set that it is for the ''original'' AI not the SAAMI AI , ok that's cool mine is at least 15yr old or 30 so its likely to be the wildcat. It is also likely to be slightly different from every other 1 on the planet. This die set is just way way off from my fire formed case which was a Unique/COW/wax 30-06 w/a lubed neck and the bolt closed the bolt also closed firmly on a 270 Win the Lee fl sizing die looks to be cut base to shoulder about .088 too deep. To me that's great for neck sizing but sooner or later I'll have to set the shoulder back. Is it possible that I got a die set that is marked 7mm Express cut for 7mm Rem Mag and packaged as 280AI ? (or some other odd combination all 3 dies are marked 7mm Express, sizer, seater and FCD. Or is the shoulder moved forward for this 1,effectively giving it nearly the same capacity as the 7mm Rem Mag ?

It is my understanding that Ackley mostly improved standards by removing body taper and altering the shoulder angle so that any Joe could buy a die set and a box or 2 of factories shoot the factories to fire form to the chamber and off we go. This rifle fits that but the dies not so much. I cringe at the idea that I might have ''that 1 that has to have a case sent off to make a sizer'' rifle.

Here's a pic of the situation.

[Harter66]

The sizing die is marked 280 Ackley - L2

[bhn22]

Did you see my reply in the reloading forum, where you also posted this?

[leadman]

The 280 is a longer case with the shoulder moved forward from what the 30-06 is. Your best bet would be to start with 280 brass.
I have a 6.5-06 that is cut deep and 30-06 doesn't work too well so I use the 280 brass.

I would not count on the Lee dies being cut correctly. I bought a close-out Lee 30-30 Ackley Imp. from Midway yesrs ago and it sizes down the base smaller than a standard 30-30. Also the shoulder is sized down too far.

[cainttype]

leadman is correct. The 280 case is longer, both base to shoulder and OAL than the '06.
A 280 fire-formed in an AI is what you need.

[Harter66]

93965
From the left to right. 30-06 , die formed 280, 06' forced in the chamber(the OM neckc bottoms) ,the 1st Unique COW wax plug fire formed case, 3 each die formed 10gr Unique w/287-150 NOE hunter ,51gr IMR4350 Hornaday 120gr HP,48 gr IMR4350 PP NOE 287-150 hunter.


In an intresting aside the Lee AI data looks to be 280 Rem data and the site data from Hodgon,IMR,Win all treat it as a +.5 gr +P+ Rem . I'm pretty sure that even leaving the neck shoulder jct where it is and blowing the wall and shoulder out from .441 to .460 will reduce pressures and incress capacity more than a half gr.

1 last note the only AI brass that has been available is Norma at $1.75 per case.

[texassako]

It does not sound like you have tried making cases Ackley's way, fire the parent in the improved chamber. I did this in my .30-40 Improved that is slightly deeper than the AI. It worked great on 100 cases loaded with cheap blemished bullets. I also would not trust any dies for these unless the die maker said it matched the reamer I purchased and used. I neck sized with the parent cartridge Lee collet die and a washer spacer for 3 loads so far, but now need to order a FL die since they are getting a bit tough to chamber by thumb in my Martini.

[Harter66]

Well all things being equal I suppose I could have run them into a 280 Rem die then trimed making 7mm Express/280 Rem from the 06' ,but I thought you know that neck sizing w/o tweekin the case would save some steps since the AI only touches the base, neck and maybe touch the shoulder.

FWIW the 4350 at 55.0 gr is in the shoulder but not the neck , my seating is way long to touch. The lube groove is out of the case. While I didn't have the Chrony out I will say that the last 3 got to the 417yd berm in a hurry compared to 22-2300 fps stuff.

[Harter66]

I had some time yesterday . I ran a couple of cases into both 280 Rem FL and 7x64 Brenkke FL RCBS dies and found that to false shoulder for the 280 was consistant w/that of the Lee AI die. The 7x64 however is very close (in the sense of where the shoulder meets the neck) to the actual rifle. Now I'm wondering what fat necked 7mm has a 30-40 degree shoulder at .460 and .473 dia 2.1 in from it.

I will modify the Lee FL die to meet the shoulder for now and just enjoy the rifle. I think that is the best thing to do. It seems to shoot ok so I will spend the time and money to get some better optics on the ol' girl and give her a real work out.

[cainttype]

As previously mentioned, the 280 Remington case is longer than the 30-06 case in all measurements ( base to shoulder, base to neck, and over-all length). You should try using 280 Remington cases to form the AI. Factory 280 ammo fired in an Ackley chamber should also form properly.

[Changeling]

I have a 280 AI, It's the most acurate rifle I own. 27" Heavy SS on a modified Argentine 1909 action.

I fire form 280 Winchester brass. I've tried Remington brand but had trouble with it. Neck splits and head seperations, I threw it all in the trash and stayed with the Winchester brass. Seldom any problems.

My dies are full length RCBS. I sent them 3 cases and they made the dies for me. No problems with the dies.

The most importaint thing is the gunsmith! He must know how to set up the barrel exactly for AI cartridges. It must be drilled so that the cartridge is a "Crush Fit" when chambering for the fire forming!

[cainttype]

"280 Remington" is the cartridge, regardless of who manufactures the casings. The "7MM Express" name was used by Remington when they RE-introduced the cartridge to their line-up, just as they had done years before with the .244's re-introduction as the 6MM Rem... Remington eventually dropped the Express name and went back to using the original name.
It seems you are a little confused about the '06 casing's measurements in relation to the 280 Remington. The 280's shoulder IS further out than the shorter 30-06. Attempts to form 280, or 280 AI, from 30-06 casings will result in short necks and shoulders lengthened. Both of these conditions are what you're experiencing and reporting.
Use 280 brass to form your 280 AI and you may well find that there is no problem at all...KISS
Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.

[Harter66]

Ok I get the memo but......... this rifle is chambered short for the cartridge I was ''certain'' that it is. At this point I don't what the name of the cartridge is.
It is the same neck and case length as the 06' the bore/groove is typical 7mm. The shoulder is blown out to a 30 dergee from the neck shoulder jct to .460 .

Its almost like a its some sort of a pre-Ackely wildcat that is so close to both the AI and RCBS . It is now quite plain to me that it is neither and because of the .460 shoulder it isn't practical to run it over to Goodsteel and get it corrected to 280 AI. My bet at this point is that it was RCBS'd w/a 30-06' headspace gauge or someone AI'd 7x64 or 65R . I was mistaken about the 270 case fitting freely. The only markings are 7mm on the bbl just forward of the action and the original DWM Berlin 1916 Gew98 and proofs. I've done a chamber cast but the bbl is notched for the extractor . I'm guessing here ,but, at some point for a rimmed case to headspace off the bbl shank and still get the Mauser claw extractor on it .
94215
94216
94217
94218

This is the best I can do to describe the case . It appears that I may have convinced myself that the shoulder to head was 2.110 when it is in fact 2.011. It ain't no common AI to be sure .

[cainttype]

Before the 280 case was common Ackley also worked with the earlier wildcat 7mm-'06. You may have an improved version of that. Your measurements seem to be very close, although it wasn't rimmed.

[texassako]

Oh, the joys of working with someone else's wildcat chambering. At least mine was a simple one. I was skimming through my books with your measurements. Ken Howell's book has something called the 7mm-06 Max M with almost exactly your case dimensions. The shoulder diameter slightly different at .452". I guess it is a moot point since knowing the name is probably not going to make the dies any cheaper. If you need a copy, I could scan and email you the page.

[Harter66]

The bolt and extractor work fine w/the 06' case now . I saw in my wanders info about more than 1 7mm on an 06' case . The other 06' family cases that Ive worked w/appeared to be longer to the neck because of the neck down extending the shoulder I've now seen the light regarding that and that the shoulders were relocated sometimes by a lot.

Look at me go 2 obscure wild cats living in my stash.