Rain water vs distilled or deionized water for rust bluing?

[robroy]

I'm setting up a shop and hot bluing is out of the question for a number of reasons. I've got a PVC pipe tank to hold hot water for rust bluing. Buying distilled/deionized water for every job seems a bit expensive and dumping rainwater down the drain after every job seems wasteful to me as well. So really 3 questions:

1. Does rainwater do the job as well as distilled?
2. Can the water be reused for the next job?
3. Is there a test, such as pH to tell when the water needs to be changed?

Opinions and guesses welcome. Please let me know when you're guessing, opining, and when you've got some hands on with this.

Thanks in advance.

[calaloo]

I have an open top stainless steel tray in which I do rust bluing. I use distilled water from Walmart and save it to be reused. I always have to top up with a couple of gallons at each bluing session--- less than $2.00. And then there is the last little bit that is muddy with sludge that I discard. I can't see why rain water would not work. My well water would probably work but I live in limestone country so its distilled for me.
Calaloo

[357maximum]

You can bring a truck to my house and shovel up all the free rainwater you want for free......cannot promise it will not melt on your way home though. On the south edge of my place I have a drift that is about 30 foot wide, about 9 feet deep, and about 1/4 mile long...should get you plenty of "rainwater".

[oldred]

I have heard that rain water success varies from area to area depending on the amount and content of the pollution, it makes sense and it's a fact that rain water is seldom clean even if you live in a pristine area because weather fronts can come from far away. A source of water that I use is from our dehumidifiers, it's free, plentiful and has worked perfectly every time but then why shouldn't it, it's from water vapor and vapor can't hold pollutants. Rain water can stain most anything left outside and often will etch Aluminum, that along with the other well known problems caused by acid rain tends to make me agree with the idea that rain water could be a poor choice, again rainwater is a long way from being pure!

[robroy]

Might be a bit expensive to get a dump tanker up to Michi-Braska from Beaver Co PA. Got a picture of my brother and me on top of a drift in the lee of Grandpa's wind brake. We're looking into the wind over top of the Russian olives that were on the west edge of the yard. I'm guessing 20 feet above the ground. That was a very snowy winter on the Montana prairie.

Replenishing rather than replacing sounds like a winner. I take it the bluing solution doesn't signifficantly contaminate the water. That might depend on the solution used. I haven't decided which one to use yet.

[Murphy]

Interesting question.

I operated a water treatment facility for 15 years. We ran daily tests for pH levels, maganese, iron...etc. All of the above can effect the outcome of what is attempting to be accomplished. Too much, or too little of any of them will change the properties of your bluing batch.

I once caught a good size sample of rain water during work just to see the difference, between it and the surface water we were treating. It's different for certain. Staying with distilled or deionized water will give you a more consistant outcome.

And yes, you can buy a pH testing kit very reasonable. It would be much easier if it were during summer months. As most swimming pool supply outfits carry pH testing kits, as does Wally World.

Murphy

[aspangler]

In my experience you are better off to use distilled and change it EVERY time. I use Art's Belgium Blue and it works great if you don't reuse the water. You will get contaminates in the water every time you blue and you won't get consistent results unless you change water after each session. That is what I have found and also what my gunsmith mentor has told me from his considerable experience.

[Reverend Recoil]

Air conditioner condensate is distilled water and works great for rust blueing. It is produced for free on any hot, humid summer day.

[oldred]

Air conditioner condensate is distilled water and works great for rust blueing. It is produced for free on any hot, humid summer day.


That's the same as what is collected in a dehumidifier but the dehumidifier will make a LOT more water and do it a lot faster, still AC water can be collected and it certainly does work.

[seaboltm]

I rust blue a lot, and I use tap water. The movement of electrons during the boiling process is essential to convert the red iron oxide to black iron oxide, also called magnetite and lodestone. A/C condensate is far from pure as there will be quite a bit of aluminum oxides in it, which helps electrons move during the boiling process, so yes, A/C condensate will work, but so will tap water.

Another thing to keep in mind is the magnetite is formed from red iron oxide in the presence of heat, no oxygen, and a medium to allow electron transfer. I boil the water for a few minutes before putting the rusted piece in the water. The boiling will drive the dissolved gasses out of the water. You can prove this to yourself easily enough. Boil some water, let it cool, and then put a goldfish in it. That goldfish won't be alive for long as the dissolved oxygen was driven out of the water by boiling. Yes, the water will regain oxygen over time, but not in time for mr. goldfish.

I change the water after the first boiling only. There will be visible red contamination after the first boiling that does not appear much in the subsequent boilings. But I am using a stainless steel tank, so I don't get a lot of extra rust and crud that an iron tank would give you. If you are using a tank that is not stainless, change the water after each cycle.

I generally do 6 cycles of rust. That is usually enough. I did a very old J.P. Sauer sxs shotgun barrel for a buddy and that old steel took about 12 cycles, but he was adamant about not removing metal before bluing. I generally sand blast and then buff. You can use glass beads, and I have, but I prefer sand followed by a 320 grit buff on a loose wheel. There is no need to go for a high polish because the acid and rusting process will leave the metal slightly matte at the end of the process.

As to acid, Brownell's works great and is much cheaper than Pilkington's.

As to PH, don't overthink this. It is not that difficult. I have actually put a few drops of acid in my water to get it more acidic! Remember, this process is not like caustic salt bluing. The chemical process here is quite different. Metallurgy factors such as steel content and heat treatment will have much more impact on your rust bluing that the water, and you can't do anything about Metallurgy.

[robroy]

Thanks again for the info. some interesting opinions.

The one rust blue job I did was with Belgian Blue on a sxs 12 ga. I got good color and fairly quickly. IIRC I used tap water. I need to find out if the water available at the shop is well water or city water.

[seaboltm]

Thanks again for the info. some interesting opinions.

The one rust blue job I did was with Belgian Blue on a sxs 12 ga. I got good color and fairly quickly. IIRC I used tap water. I need to find out if the water available at the shop is well water or city water.

I doubt well water will matter versus tap water. The thing is we are looking for is free ions in the water that can help electron transport. Well water will likely be alkaline, but that's ok. Alkaline water moves electrons too! I should say I am not a gunsmith, but I am a physicist, and I did my dissertation concerning the surface physics of metals many years ago, and surface physics is precisely what bluing is.

[robroy]

So seaboltm, how come black oxide doesn't change the dimension of steel but red oxide does. If I have to do differential equations to get it don't even bother.

[Duckiller]

Rain water is not that pure. Remember every drop of rain forms around a particle of dirt. I have done no blueing but there are filters that will clean up water. Figure out what you don't want in your water then get a filter that will at least take most of the bad stuff out.

[seaboltm]

So seaboltm, how come black oxide doesn't change the dimension of steel but red oxide does. If I have to do differential equations to get it don't even bother.

Have you measured that? Because I have not. But I do know you don't get to black oxide without having red oxide first. So, from that logic, if red oxide changes the dimensions, so does black oxide. No differential equations needed, and I doubt we will need Lagrange Undetermined Multipliers to get closer to a solution. Red oxide probably has a larger crystalline structure than black oxide, hence the dimension change, but I am just guessing.

[John Boy]

That's the same as what is collected in a dehumidifier but the dehumidifier will make a LOT more water and do it a lot fasterJust clean the bacteria out of the tank and it can't get any better for bluing

[robroy]

I say the dimensions don't change because I was told that by my bluing instructor. Everything worked and fit after hot tank bluing as it did before, so I had no reason to check. I guess the more pertinent question is what do you do to protecr the internals from corrosion. I've heard of coating the slots and such on the inside of an action with laquer to protect them and then removing the coating with solvent. I wonder if this is really necessary if they don't get treated with the bluing solution. It would be rather hard to card the inside of a lever gun or a box lock for that matter.

[seaboltm]

I say the dimensions don't change because I was told that by my bluing instructor. Everything worked and fit after hot tank bluing as it did before, so I had no reason to check. I guess the more pertinent question is what do you do to protecr the internals from corrosion. I've heard of coating the slots and such on the inside of an action with laquer to protect them and then removing the coating with solvent. I wonder if this is really necessary if they don't get treated with the bluing solution. It would be rather hard to card the inside of a lever gun or a box lock for that matter.

As to internals, you will find that the metal that has not been exposed to acid will not corrode much at all, if any. I use a hand held carding brush for internals, and sometimes 0000 steel wool wrapped around a nylon cleaning brush and powered by a drill. Keep water out of the barrel using wooden plugs. Rust bluing is labor intensive, which is one reason no one but hobbyist and custom gun makers really do it much anymore. The industry switched to caustic salts for a reason: they are much easier and faster. I have done caustic salt bluing, rust bluing, and parkerizing. Now I only parkerize and rust blue.

[robroy]

I agree much faster with good results. We just don't have the room.

[rattletrap1970]

Quick question about the boiling process.

Every gun I have ever blued has been rust blued. I prefer Mark Lee Express blue. I have used Pilkington's, but I find Mark Lee is more reactive (Faster). Generally I do polish the metal with an 3M bonded 8S EXL Fine wheel. I find that Rust Bluing will dull the finish as it is caustic, but, only so much. So the shinier you start, the shinier you end up. I find I have better results the more used the water is, that is, the more times I boil parts in it. Finishing, I heat the parts till they are quite hot with a torch and drop them in high sulfur cutting oil. I repeat this a couple times. Then wipe them off well and lightly oil with that Lanolin based spray. I have achieve a shiny black that is comparable with decent Hot Salt bluing (depending on the alloy of course). But I'm always looking to improve.

Now the question: As far as deepening the black (if that is possible) is there anything that can be added to the boiling water to make the process darker? i.e. Higher Ph, Lower Ph, salts (NaCl or otherwise), buffers, borax, anything?

Thanks.

[Bulldogger]

That's the same as what is collected in a dehumidifier but the dehumidifier will make a LOT more water and do it a lot faster, still AC water can be collected and it certainly does work.

If you have a high-efficiency condensing furnace it also distills water for you and pumps it down the drain usually. Clean out the pump body and change the tubing and then pump it where you want! Beware; mine fills a two gallon container per day in the humid VA summertime. I gather it and use it on the garden. These furnaces condense during winter too, but not as much. Have to keep things clean for the algae/gunk if you're going to blue with it, but it's easily done.

BDGR

[Greg S]

How about Reverse Osmosis water?

[waksupi]

I started using the steam process, and the water doesn't matter. I made a top for an old cast iron pot, with a sheet of metal, a plumbing flange, and 4" PVC. Another lid for the PVC, with a wire hook. Set the pot on a propane burner, let it steam for 25 minutes.
I just drop the small parts in the pot, and have no problems with it. It's the boiling parts that take 25 minutes, the steam will do the job in about 20 for the barreled action.

[Reg]

Waksupi,
Could you elaborate on this a bit more or give a link or two that might go into more detail.
Have only heard small amounts of info on this process but would like to learn more.
Thank you

[dragon813gt]

If you have a high-efficiency condensing furnace it also distills water for you and pumps it down the drain usually. Clean out the pump body and change the tubing and then pump it where you want! Beware; mine fills a two gallon container per day in the humid VA summertime. I gather it and use it on the garden. These furnaces condense during winter too, but not as much. Have to keep things clean for the algae/gunk if you're going to blue with it, but it's easily done.

BDGR

This is not the case in either scenario. In the summer I'm assuming you're talking about the AC coil. That water condenses off the coil surface. It's going to have trace amounts of metal in it. Plus any living organisms it picks up while sitting in the condensate pan. The pans are breeding grounds algae and the like.

The furnace condensate forms on the combustion side. It's far from distilled and has acidic properties due the fuel being burnt. Both of these sources can be used to water plants, assuming ph is correct. But he units don't produce distilled water.

[Bodean98]

I use the steaming method as well but I sometimes get after rust. I've not had a problem with that when boiling in water. I usually steam the barrel because it's less hassle than trying to boil it in the tank. The small parts boiled in a pot do not seem to suffer from the after rust.
I have used tap water, rain water, and distilled water and also changed water each cycle as well as reused the water. I haven't been able to detect any advantage to one over the other. The rusting solution on the other hand seems to make a considerable difference in the speed and quality of the finished product. I have used Pilkington's and Brownell's. I like the Brownell's better.

[waksupi]

Waksupi,
Could you elaborate on this a bit more or give a link or two that might go into more detail.
Have only heard small amounts of info on this process but would like to learn more.
Thank you

http://www.rustblue.com/blog/why-should-you-steam-rather-than-boil/

http://www.rustblue.com/blog/rust-bluing-woes/

From an older post;

As for boiling out rust blue, without proper tanks. I came across this on a gunsmith's website, and it worked great for me.

Get a pvc tube, and cut to length needed.
Get a pot to boil water in. I had an old cast iron pot, about 8" in diameter.
Then find a flat piece of metal that will cover the pot.

You should find a flange that the PVC will fit into. This was the most expensive part of the project. I used some 4" pvc since that is what I had laying around. Smaller diameter would be easier to find a flange for. The flange makes it easier to balance the pvc on the pot cover.
Find where the pvc will center on your pot cover, and drill holes.

Once this is done, bring the pot of water with the cover on, to a boil. I did this outside, with a propane burner. Once you have things boiling, set the pvc with the barrel hanging inside over your drilled steam vents. I used a piece of scrap metal, with a hole drilled through, and a wire as a hanger.
Leave your top metal have a bit of venting, to allow the steam to easily circulate in the tube.

Steam for 20 minutes, and you are done.

I simply dropped my smaller parts in the boiling water. You could also make some other smaller pvc container to steam separately if you like.
The steaming would only really need to be for around ten minutes. The extra time I used was for the parts that were actually being boiled, as the temperature was below the steam temperature.
I believe steaming would also eliminate any concern about not having distilled water, as I saw no spots or other problems from steaming, and I have hard water here.
This is the method I used in the Trapdoor Springfield Reborn thread.

PS, you will not have a rough finish, if you do your boil out (steam out) when you have just a very light coat of rust, and use a Brownell's stainless steel buffing wheel made specifically for bluing.

[M-Tecs]

http://www.rustblue.com/blog/why-should-you-steam-rather-than-boil/

http://www.rustblue.com/blog/rust-bluing-woes/

From an older post;

As for boiling out rust blue, without proper tanks. I came across this on a gunsmith's website, and it worked great for me.

Get a pvc tube, and cut to length needed.
Get a pot to boil water in. I had an old cast iron pot, about 8" in diameter.
Then find a flat piece of metal that will cover the pot.

You should find a flange that the PVC will fit into. This was the most expensive part of the project. I used some 4" pvc since that is what I had laying around. Smaller diameter would be easier to find a flange for. The flange makes it easier to balance the pvc on the pot cover.
Find where the pvc will center on your pot cover, and drill holes.

Once this is done, bring the pot of water with the cover on, to a boil. I did this outside, with a propane burner. Once you have things boiling, set the pvc with the barrel hanging inside over your drilled steam vents. I used a piece of scrap metal, with a hole drilled through, and a wire as a hanger.
Leave your top metal have a bit of venting, to allow the steam to easily circulate in the tube.

Steam for 20 minutes, and you are done.

I simply dropped my smaller parts in the boiling water. You could also make some other smaller pvc container to steam separately if you like.
The steaming would only really need to be for around ten minutes. The extra time I used was for the parts that were actually being boiled, as the temperature was below the steam temperature.
I believe steaming would also eliminate any concern about not having distilled water, as I saw no spots or other problems from steaming, and I have hard water here.
This is the method I used in the Trapdoor Springfield Reborn thread.

PS, you will not have a rough finish, if you do your boil out (steam out) when you have just a very light coat of rust, and use a Brownell's stainless steel buffing wheel made specifically for bluing.

Thanks for the excellent post.

[Andy]

I met a man who lives right on the coast in the pacific northwest, he is older and has done rustbluing there for 30 or 40 years and has done hundreds maybe thousands of guns. I asked him what he used for water and he said rainwater only, he had a special setup to catch it and store it at his place. Given his location he was never out of water.

I don't have any personal experience with bluing just thought I would pass it on since it's data direct from someone who has done it a lot.

[John Boy]

Distilled water and can be reused
I have a dehumidifier in the basement and pour more distilled in the toilet than I save for cleaning brass

[Col4570]

Yes Rainwater,Ordinary Tap Water has Chlorine etc and will impart a dark red hue.Mix Rainwater,Copper Sulphate,Nitric Acid.Make a fairly week solution do not overdo the Copper Sulphate.Plug the Barrel,Degrease the Parts,allow to rust for as long as it takes.A warm atmosphere helps the rusting.Boil in Rainwater for 10 Minutes.Card off the Black Rust with 4aught Steel Wool.Repeat as necessary.Apply Engine oil after final carding.Keep an eye open for after rusting.I have a 36 inch long Tank with 3 Gas Rings connected to a Propane Tank.For Browning do not boil just pour scalding water over the rusted parts.

[BigEyeBob]

I use rain water ,Its readily available here with well over 300 mm per year , 5000 litre rain water tank .I use a solution made from salammoniac and rain water ,will rust up metal in a few minutes, card with a brownells stainlees steel brush in my drill press and then boil in rainwater.When I get the depth of colour I want I boil the part in clean engine oil for half an hour .This gets the oil into the rust blue and kills off the rusting process.It also darkens the colour slightly .After a week I wipe the part with acetone and wipe it overwith boiled linseed oil . Leave it for a week to harden , never have any problems with rusting from fingers prints or rain or humidity.
I did a Lee Enfield trigger guard a few months ago , its been sitting on my bench since , we are in the middle of our wet season atm , with rain every day and humidity on the high end of the scale ,no signs of rust at all ,despite every thing else in my shed getting a fine coating of the red stuff .

[Bent Ramrod]

For barrels, I do the steam method, but with even less equipment than the other posters have mentioned.

I took the whistle off a whistling tea kettle, get it to a good boil, hold the barrel by the wooden plugs on each end, and pass the barrel through the blast of steam coming out of the spout, rotating it and moving it back and forth until the red color goes away and the gray to black remains. Then a rub with degreased steel wool, another coating of rusting agent, and back to the humidity container, or, if done, a a good wipedown with powdered chalk and a spray of WD-40. I watch for after rusting (never have seen any) and after a couple days, rub it with sewing machine oil.

The only other "equipment" I need is newspapers on the floor, to protect it from the dribbling of rusty water.

[Whiterabbit]

hands on, here. But only for a half dozen jobs. Including one complete barreled rifle action.

Distilled water. If you use tap, you get a brown blue, not a black blue. Not that you get a hot blue black, it's always brownish (which I LOVE), but use tap water, it's more like plumb brown than blue. Great for a muzzleloader, not so much on a modern.

Next, take cleanliness as seriously as if you were brewing beer. go anal till you feel it's excessive, you got it right. That makes the conversion work even better for that slivery-black kind of antique blue. Keep the water as crud free and fresh as possible. anal.

My two cents.

[Sur-shot]

I use a steam generator, pot, toilet flange and 4 inch heavy PVC pipe w cap and dowel, stainless wire hangers. I can get 3-4 cycles in a day. This is a Win 60 I restored in one day. I use Brownell's Rust Blue, 220 grit metal sanding belt, no buffing clay, lacquer inside, distilled water, and the steam rusts and sets the rust. It does a beautiful 1911.
Ed
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