2 Employees in a Gunshop Never Heard of Elmer Keith

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Guys, I was talking to a buddy in a gunshop, my buddy is an instructor at the gunshop. He is very grey. He called two employees over to us from behind the counter. He asked these two guys to tell me who Elmer Keith was. Nether guy knew. These two guys looked about 30, no older. Armed, working in a gunshop that has been in business 30 years and these two guys had never heard of Elmer Keith. This gunshop is a pretty big gunshop, sells lots of guns, has an indoor range and does certification for armed private security companies, the local law enforcement agency has an unofficial sign hanging on the all calling it a precinct.

What is the world coming to?

[Sweetpea]

:popcorn:

[prs]

$5 will get Ya $10; there will be two Docs at your local ER who have not heard of Galen.

prs

[DeanWinchester]

I dunno. A man came I to my shop a while back. We got to talking guns while I worked on his truck. He made the proud claim that he believed the .270 to be the finest cartridge ever made.
I says to him, "I can neither agree nor disagree BUT, you certainly have the support of all writings of Jack O'Connor."
You'd have thought I tried to explain quantam physics or sumthin. Never heard of the guy.
I told him go google it. Then go to amazon and buy a book or two. You CANNOT be a .270 fan and not read Jack O'Connor.

People....



I'm sure some fool thinks he's good with a revolver but ain't never heard of McGivern or Miculek.

Here we are in the Information Age and people can't even fricken read. If you think you got an idea that's new, well, I bet you a dollar somebody already did it.

[JSnover]

Say they looked about 30? In a few weeks it will be the 30th anniversary of Elmer Keith's death. If the gun store in question also sells gun-related books, maybe you could encourage them to carry one or two of his books. Ignorance is curable.

[35 Whelen]

$10 will get you $20 they were armed with Glocks...or one of those other plastic pistols with Louisville Slugger diameter grips.

Ignorance is curable, but there has to be an interest in the subject. Most folks these days couldn't care less about the writings of some now forgotten cowboy who helped develop one of the most popular handgun cartridges in the world. Would this be part of a generation gap?

Can I have some of that popcorn, please?

[dragon813gt]

And?

So what if people don't know who Elmer Keith is? If I didn't handload I would have no idea who he is. Most people shoot factory ammo and don't read gun magazines.

[btroj]

Doesn't bother me a bit.

I want shop employees who know what they have on hand or what I want ordered. I don't care if they know history.

I'm not a great follower of Jeff Cooper, never read anything he wrote, but that doesn't mean I can't run a 1911.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Elmer Keith apparently never blogged or made a youtube video.

[enfieldphile]

35 Whelen, My exact though the instant I read the OP's post! LOL [smilie=1:

I was glad when there was a high quality, hardcover, US produced, reprint of "SIXGUNS" in 1992 for $27.00 delivered. I was about to shell out $75.00 for an old copy! I have a bunch of his old columns from "guns & Ammo" in a binder.

Ask them kids who Skelton, Sharpe, Jordan, Hatcher & Nonte are and $20.00 will get you $40.00 all they would do is stare @ you. But, @ least they are gun owners, vote the right way and most likely are straight. :wink:


$10 will get you $20 they were armed with Glocks...or one of those other plastic pistols with Louisville Slugger diameter grips.

Ignorance is curable, but there has to be an interest in the subject. Most folks these days couldn't care less about the writings of some now forgotten cowboy who helped develop one of the most popular handgun cartridges in the world. Would this be part of a generation gap?

Can I have some of that popcorn, please?

[35 Whelen]

Elmer Keith apparently never blogged or made a youtube video.


:bigsmyl2:

[JSnover]

Could we say the same thing about Hitler, Jesus, or Einstein? How about the Constitution or any of the framers? Who cares what they knew or thought, or what they did, right?
People who won't read or won't study a little history place themselves in the same camp as the young punks who disregard anything written by any 'dead white guys.'
Ignorance may be curable... but it's not illegal, so I suppose we have to allow it.

[bhn22]

But show them a picture of snoop dog....

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Maybe we need to make this a viral video.
"44 Magnum (Elmer Keith Tribute)"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRNDoVjFQJM

[NSB]

I heard of him but so what? I'm not impressed with his self inflated ego. I read two of his books and don't consider them worth the time spent on reading them. He was a great BS artist though. I could care less if any employee in any gun store ever heard of him. If you're a fan I have no problem with that, but I could care less about that either. It has no bearing on what transaction I'm in the process of completing while in the store.

[Thumbcocker]

The man can shoot a pistol some.

[JSnover]

I heard of him but so what? I'm not impressed with his self inflated ego.

Neither would he be impressed with yours... [smilie=1:

[Fire_Medic]

I'll give my $0.02 for whatever it's worth. I have of course heard and know of Keith and Cooper, and McGivern/Miculek but don't know the other gentlemen mentioned.

I'm 33 now, I have in the past worked at a Gun Shop for almost two years. The further I have gotten into firearms and reloading the more curious I have become with things of the past in relation to both. I think we do not have the same level of craftsmanship as a whole like there was in times past. I have recently been bitten by the revolver bug which has me spending all my free time reading up on more wheels guns and lever action rifles and all things 45 Colt. I think a lot has to do with the persons personality and also who they have around them to teach them.

What got me into reloading years ago was an old timer hand loading rounds to test out with a rifle at the range one day. I thought it was the weirdest thing I'd ever seen, but I was curious. I went over to talk to him and that was that. But that gentleman volunteered much of his time to show me things that he didn't need to do, and he asked nothing in return except that I give a solid effort at learning what he was teaching me. I have come across many people like this with different things related to guns. I'm now trying to sort though all of the overwhelming casting info to get into that.

Point being, if the guy that called the kids over has never attempted to teach those "kids" who Keith is, than how much better is he than them? Now if he has tried and met resistance that's another story.

But at the end of the day, like others have said, who cares. So long as they know what they're doing with the things they have on hand they're good employees in my book. Where I worked we all had a decent general knowledge of firearms and being safe with them, but each of us had a "specialty" if you will on something. And that made the group valuable.

Not everyone cares to take the time to read and learn things, and most people my age just want an answer and instant satisfaction, sad I know. But I was always the kids that wanted to know how/why things worked like they did, I was teased for it when I was young and my mother use to punish me as a child because I would take things apart and put them back together just to see how they worked, lol.

We are all different and something I learned a long time ago was, you can't go through life expecting everyone to be/think like you, if you do you're in for a world of disappointment, lol.

FM

[DeanWinchester]

Some of you might not care but don't you see, look at all they learned. No one need RELEARN all this. We're constantly rediscovering stuff we don't have to.
If someone wanting to do some wildcatting would read PO ackley, they could save a lot of trouble and expense.
There's nothing new under e sun and if you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it.

[mpbarry1]

I watch a lot of Hickoc45 videos on youtube. I really like his stuff. he is a hell of a shot!

[btroj]

Why do people seem to think that everyone who works in a gunshop is a die hard gun junky? To many it is a job, not a passion.

I don't expect the people working at JCPenny to be experts on clothing designers. I don't care if the guy at the shoe store is an xpert on Phil Knight. How many here are up on Steve Jobs or Bill Gates and what they have said in the past? Not many I bet yet we are using their products.

This isn't that different than assuming a cop is a gun guru even though his sidearm is a job related tool. Many own, or sell, guns because they enjoy it, not because they are interested in the history of firearms.

[wallenba]

Works both ways I guess. Over Thanksgiving, my nephews and niece were astonished when I had to ask who Justin Beeber was.

[scattershot]

Man, that's just sad.

[JSnover]

They don't have to be die hard junky types, whether they sell guns or shirts, but if I have a question I'd like to get an answer, not something like this:

"Try some of these Keith bullets, they might work."
"What's a Keith bullet?"
"I dunno but we got a whole bunch of them."
"What do they do?"
"Dude, I just work here, do you want them or not?"

[35 Whelen]

Some of you might not care but don't you see, look at all they learned. No one need RELEARN all this. We're constantly rediscovering stuff we don't have to.
If someone wanting to do some wildcatting would read PO ackley, they could save a lot of trouble and expense.
There's nothing new under e sun and if you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it.

Spot on.

[dragon813gt]

Could we say the same thing about Hitler, Jesus, or Einstein? How about the Constitution or any of the framers?

Did you really just compare Elmer Keith to Hitler, Jesus and Einstein? How can you possibly compare a gun writer to people that have effected millions of people. The comparison isn't anywhere close to reality. There are thousands, if not millions, of books written about the people you compared Elmer Keith to. There is a reason those people are household names and no one knows Elmer Keith. And it's summed up in one word, importance.

But I do agree that if you don't study history you are doomed to repeat it. But I fail to see why someone working at a gun shop has to know the history of firearms and the people involved in it. I don't like talking to the people behind the counters. I find that most of them are biased are beyond belief and don't want to help if you are interested in something besides what they like. They need to know basic facts about the firearms that are in the cases and on the racks. Because that's what's required to perform their job.

[35 Whelen]

Did you really just compare Elmer Keith to Hitler, Jesus and Einstein? How can you possibly compare a gun writer to people that have effected millions of people. The comparison isn't anywhere close to reality. There are thousands, if not millions, of books written about the people you compared Elmer Keith to. There is a reason those people are household names and no one knows Elmer Keith. And it's summed up in one word, importance.

I think he's speaking of subjective history. For example, what tennis player hasn't heard of Arthur Ashes? Or NASCAR buff that hasn't heard of Earnhart? Etc.

35W

[btroj]

They don't have to be die hard junky types, whether they sell guns or shirts, but if I have a question I'd like to get an answer, not something like this:

"Try some of these Keith bullets, they might work."
"What's a Keith bullet?"
"I dunno but we got a whole bunch of them."
"What do they do?"
"Dude, I just work here, do you want them or not?"

Doesn't bother me, I know what I want. I don't rely on gunshop employees for info on much of anything. I also don't expect the guys at the lumber yard or hardware store to know much about what they sell either.

I don't think I have low expectations of the employees, I just do my homework before I go.

These guys are selling to the masses, not the gun junky. The masses don't care and they buy way more guns than we ever will.

[bangerjim]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^truer words were never spoken!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^






$5 will get Ya $10; there will be two Docs at your local ER who have not heard of Galen.

prs

[JSnover]

I did not compare them with each other, the point was whether we're proud or ashamed, history matters. I'm pretty sure you got that but the other point is still lost.
Bias is normal. It's human nature to a greater or lesser extent but at least if someone knows the subject matter you can exchange some information. Personally I hate dealing with register apes who are only capable of taking my money.

[btroj]

I think he's speaking of subjective history. For example, what tennis player hasn't heard of Arthur Ashes? Or NASCAR buff that hasn't heard of Earnhart? Etc.

35W

I bet lots of recreational tennis players don't know who Ashe was. Heck, I bet lots of young kids playing tennis today don't know. Doesn't alter their ability to learn the game and play well.

You also equate owning a gun with being a NASCAR buff. A more appropriate comparison would be "how many who own a Monte Carlo know who Earnhardt was or even watch NASCAR". Bet it isn't many but they still an enjoy the car.

This is an excellent example of people assuming that all other with a common interest must be equally interested in it.

Not all deer hunters are reloaders. Most of them don't shoot more than a couple rounds a year. Doesn't make them less effective as hunters, they just view a firearm as a tool.

I know many people who own a gun but know little about them other than what ammo to buy and how to aim and shoot it.

At some point it comes down to reality. They don't know and they don't care. We just need to get over it and move on.

[btroj]

I did not compare them with each other, the point was whether we're proud or ashamed, history matters. I'm pretty sure you got that but the other point is still lost.
Bias is normal. It's human nature to a greater or lesser extent but at least if someone knows the subject matter you can exchange some information. Personally I hate dealing with register apes who are only capable of taking my money.


No, history that matters to you matters.

You obviously use a computer but do you follow the history of the development of computer technology? Can you converse well with the tech geeks? I have a brother who can but her doesn't look down on me for asking questions. Why? Because my computer is merely a tool.

[Multigunner]

A lot of Lee Enfield fans never heard of Captain Hardcastle or Lord Cottesloe.

Also its a tribute to the .270 that owners of these rifles would have such a high opinion of it though they never read the works mentioned.

The old time gunwritters passed on a mountain of very valuable information, but one should take some of their claims with a pinch of salt.

[JSnover]

No, history that matters to you matters.

You obviously use a computer but do you follow the history of the development of computer technology? Can you converse well with the tech geeks? I have a brother who can but her doesn't look down on me for asking questions. Why? Because my computer is merely a tool.

Am I fluent? No. Do I make an effort? Yes. Learning at least a portion of the history of computing has made it easier to understand and converse but I don't claim to be one of the whiz kids. The fact that each of us is able to read and post indicates that you and I have all of the necessary skills to operate a book. Why is that important? Because the web is only as good as the people who manage it. All of the data that we might need might not be available online because someone hasn't put it there yet. Books are tools, also.
I'm not surprised by the two guys who never heard of Keith. He died before they were out of diapers. Should one of them ever become interested in a .357 or .44 magnum, they might like to know what or who inspired it. They may not need to know, but they might enjoy learning a little about it. Along the way they might accidentally learn what a Keith bullet is. No harm in that.

[wcp4570]

We are all locked by birth into our own generation and along with that is the knowledge of what we learned as we grew up. If you liked guns, you naturally gained more knowledge in that area, more so than an area you didn't care to learn about. With that said, I'm glade I grew up reading from the old greats like Skeeter, Elmer, Jordan and many others.

wcp

[JSnover]

Since almost everything we know is based on someone else's work, it would seem wise to do a little reading now and then. Especially if the person who wrote the book is dead. Once they're in the ground they can only talk to worms.

[Artful]

Elmer Keith apparently never blogged or made a youtube video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRNDoVjFQJM

[nekshot]

I proudly am pop culture illiterate and hollywood stupid! But I sure like to educate myself on the fellas before my time in the gun world!

[762 shooter]

Most everyone here relies on AC electricity, radio waves, radar, and remote control. Not many people know of Nikola Tesla.

I've been entertained quite a bit by the writers that jumped into that old timey social media called the written word.

We're doomed. This generation of young people is not as smart as us.

I just passed by an interview with Cheap Trick on TV. Those guys are a bunch of old men!

762

[josper]

I watch a lot of Hickoc45 videos on youtube. I really like his stuff. he is a hell of a shot! +1 That guy knows his stuff and yes he is a heck of a shot.

[josper]

Every time someone brings up something about Jack O'Connor its like a trip down memory lane. As a teenager he was my idol and I loved reading his stories in Outdoor Life Magazine. Later on when I had acquired my own .270 I wrote to him on several occasions for information on loads I was having a problem with. He always responded and was an immense help. I still have a number of books by him .

[DRNurse1]

Elmer Keith apparently never blogged or made a youtube video.

Great, now Conan or Jimmy Fallon are going to be making the You Tube' offerings' Keith et al would likely have made.

[C. Latch]

We live in the information age. We do not live in the Age of a Good Working Knowledge of History.

:(

[cbrick]

But show them a picture of snoop dog....

Hhmmm . . . A snoop dog? Dunno about that breed, I have a coon dog that can snoop out anything as long as it interests her. Is that a snoop dog or is it a different breed?

Rick

[country gent]

Its a shame as Elmer Kieth was a knowlegable shooter, worked in arsenals for awhile, was a bullet desighner and had several custom handguns ( revolvers built that were ahead of thier time. He came from a era of change and new technologies coming into use. He worked with the firearms industry to produce a new handgun cartridge, no mean feat there getting to industries to work together. He started out with cap and ball relvolvers and early cartridge rifles to the modern. His bullet desighns still are in use and being produced today. While gunshop emploies dont need to know him they should have an idea of his accomplishments and what he gave to the shooting sports. Jack OConnor, Bill Jordan, Ed Mc Givern are all from that era. Most of todays writers dont convey the information or as much of it in an article as these Old guys did.

[762 shooter]

Hhmmm . . . A snoop dog? Dunno about that breed, I have a coon dog that can snoop out anything as long as it interests her. Is that a snoop dog or is it a different breed?

Rick

SnoopDog is definitely your kind of guy Rick. Let's see, A pimp that made a lot of money doing raps glamorizing abusing women, doing drugs, and killing cops. A man's man.

For some reason I always feel like practicing my dry fire drills whenever i see a reference to him.

762

[Char-Gar]

It a generational things. Most folks don't know squat about anything before they born. Many still are don't know squat about anything after they were born.

I never go into any kind of store, to buy anything, depending on a store employee to help me make a decision on what to buy. So, I don't care what they know or don't know. As long as they know how to ring up the sale and do the paperwork, I am OK with them.

[DRNurse1]

For what it is worth, my kids (and me too!) tend to learn about things that interest them.

So, if the gun shop guy is in a J.O.B., I would not expect him to know ANYTHING, take any given opportunity to help him learn my interests so he can better serve me (customer SERVICE, right?), as noted above, do my research (caveat emptor and all that stuff).

Now and again I run into someone truly interested in what they do (actually really often in this forum). These are really cool folks to chat up, and pick their brains. Real conversations and learning, too.

[DeanWinchester]

Snoop Dog???

93904

[Jimmy10mm]

Elmer Keith ? He live around here ? ......... :guntootsmiley:

[M-Tecs]

Today we are blessed with a multitude of choices so knowledge of the work of people like EK is not required. In the early 70’s if I wanted a high performance hunting handgun load I couldn’t buy it. I had to educate himself on what they did and follow in their footsteps. All the major manufactures offer performance loads and small companies like Buffalo Bore and Garret offer specialty loads. Load data for any type loads are readily available online. EK’s performance loads are very mild compared to the 460 and 500 S&W.

[John Allen]

Elmer Keith, didn't he invent a glue or something [smilie=1:

[Hickory]

Neither would he be impressed with yours... [smilie=1:

Bravo

[AZ-JIM]

http://youtu.be/lLk1v5bSFPw

Most kids, even if they had heard of him, would call Jerry Miculek an old timer even though he is alive and well, and guarantee none of them can keep up with him. If they dont think this is impressive, there is nothing you can do.....

az-jim

[Artful]

Snoop Dog???

93904

Much better than

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1126233.1343783641!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/snoop1n-1-web.jpg
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/snoop-dogg-evolves-snoop-lion-claims-bob-marley-reincarnated-video-article-1.1126235


Snoop Dogg evolves into Snoop Lion, claims he is Bob Marley reincarnated (VIDEO)
Rastafarian priests gave Snoop Dogg the new identity Snoop Lion during his spiritual awakening, as the music icon records first reggae album.

Snoop went to Jamaica a Dogg but returned a Lion after a religious and artistic awakening.
Rastafarian priests bestowed the new moniker Snoop Lion upon the music icon when he visited Jamaica in search of "a new path."...

and don't forget

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/showbiz/news/a188719/snoop-dogg-i-revolutionised-porn.html

Snoop Dogg has claimed that he revolutionised the pornography industry.

The gangsta rapper directed and presented 2001's Snoop Dogg's Doggystyle, which mixed hardcore pornography and hip-hop, as well as the following year's Snoop Dogg's Hustlaz: Diary Of A Pimp.

Snoop told The Stool Pigeon: "I made a few. I know everybody like it, but everybody be afraid and 'shamed.

"So I was like, 'F**k it, I'm gonna put together a coupla porno movies. I'm gonna direct and add a different flavor to the porno world just to change the game'."

He added: "And I did. I won four AVN [Adult Video News] awards, sold the most DVDs ever in porno, brought a new style of shooting, brought music to the porno world... I changed the whole game and they thankful for me.

"They want me to do more, but I'm like, 'I'm cool, that was a phase for me and I don't wanna do it no more'. I had a wife and kids when I did it, that didn't stop nothin'. I just didn't wanna do it no more."

[rugerdude]

Face it, each generation forgets a little more history. I mean we have college students who can't identify continents on a map. For that matter, some of them can't even come close to labeling the states on a map of the USA.

As far as gun shops go, I have found that very few of the employees in them really know much of anything. I could not tell you how many times I have had to point out the ammo I was wanting because they had no idea what or where it was!

[btroj]

Each generation also has a bit more history to learn. Your current events will become your children's history.

Like Char-gar I only want the employees to know how to ring up the transaction, I will garner the knowledge myself.

If nothing else you are better to assume they know nothing than to get a car salesman who knows everything......

[enfieldphile]

When we were kids and needed to know something, (unless you had encyclopedias) our parents said, "Get on your bike, ride to the library and look it up."

The next generation would not let their kids out of their sight, so they said, "Get in the car, I'll drive you to the library and you can look it up."

The next generation would say to their kid, "Your brothers' time on the family 286, dial-up desk-top computer is up in 18 minutes, you can look it up then."

THIS generation will say to their kid, "Not to undermine you self-esteem or make you feel less then, and please don't report me to the CPS Office for suggesting this, but I believe you can look that up on the new-gen smart-phone I was obliged to get you."




We live in the information age. We do not live in the Age of a Good Working Knowledge of History.

:(

[waksupi]

I'm often surprised at muzzle loader shooters who have never heard of Lt. John Forsyth.

[rugerdude]

Like Char-gar I only want the employees to know how to ring up the transaction, I will garner the knowledge myself.

If nothing else you are better to assume they know nothing than to get a car salesman who knows everything......

True, but it's sad that so few people today take enough pride in their job that to learn the basics. Time was even the after school part time help could actually answer some of your questions. There was more to a job than running a cash register.

Today, everything is self-serve. No one takes pride in much of anything it seems. And forget personal responsibility. If it ain't right it's someone else's fault.

Just makes me sad to think what my soon to be born child is gonna have to deal with.

[waksupi]

Elmer Keith, didn't he invent a glue or something [smilie=1:


You're thinking of Mr. Glue.

Mr. Elmer Glue.

[rockshooter]

When I wander into my local gun shop, I look for the help with white hair- like mine. I've read Elmer Keith for years, but I also grew up where he lived. I recently pointed out to the Local Cabelas folk in Boise that the Keith display hadn't been dusted in years and really made them look bad to some of their patrons. To some it doesn't matter where we was shooters came from- to me it does.
Loren

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

A handgun shooter not knowing about Elmer Keith is a deplorable state of ignorance.

A handgun shooter not caring about Elmer Keith is a classic state of stupid.

Condition One is fixable, all you need to do is read "Sixguns".

Condition Two can't be fixed. All you can do is pity that someone.

Reading "Safari" was one of the reasons I first hunted Africa. I hope to make my fourth trip this late summer.

Rich
SW Idaho


Now, all that remains is for the two groups to separate themselves here by their posts. Several already have...

[Boogieman]

Explaining Elmer to some folks is like teaching a pig to dance. They have no respect for the people who developed the things we have today. They can give you all the stats. on all their sports teams but can't name 1 WWII hero. '' Who cares about that old junk". Before you bad mouth Elmer or rest of his kind take time learn about them.

[canyon-ghost]

How many times can you say, "Elmer Keith invented magnums" before it gets old. Of course, he did a lot of things in his lifetime. He's another one of the Greatest generation to leave us with what he'd done and documented. I've only recently become a fan so, I don't fault people for not knowing who he was.

Is he still relevant? Sure, without him there'd be no basis for a .357 sig (try that fer modern). I once thought I knew a lot, that ended after I turned 40 and started researching firearms, their history, and shooting techniques. There is enough information out there to make it a daunting task. And enough clueless shooters to make conversation difficult. I guess that's life.

[swheeler]

Elmer who?

[rlb]

Elmer who?

You know, that little short guy fromSalmon, Idaho with the big hat and 30' tall ego. The guy that everyone follows because they just read what he wrote and never knew him. Not everyone can BS their way into fame and followers. He was gifted.:wink:

[JHeath]

Jack OConnor, Bill Jordan, Ed Mc Givern are all from that era. Most of todays writers dont convey the information or as much of it in an article as these Old guys did.

I have a history degree, but I can't blame the guy that works at Best Buy and never heard of Philo Taylor Farnsworth (inventor of the TV).

A lot of these young guys are really accomplished at what they know is possible. But guys like McGivern and Keith discovered what's possible, and learned it on their own. An elder of mine said, "They didn't know they couldn't do it." The young guys miss out by not knowing of Keith and McGivern. They live in a world where the rules are all set, unaware that people had to sall off the map to create what we have now.

Supposedly McGivern was told it's impossible to hit a falling can 5 times with a revolver. He discovered after 30,000 rounds of practice that it was not so hard. If he had listened to conventional wisdom, he would't have tried.

Keith sailed way off the map with handloads, in an educated and safe way. Those young guys at the LGS take magnums for granted. Probably they assume some team of government funded white-lab-coated eggheads invented these things using a terabyte algorithm, making it "legitimate."

Keith and McGivern are like Galileo compared to a modern scientist. Galileo made his own observations and theories. The Pope and a lot of "scholars" told Galileo his experiments were irresponsible. They said authority and rules outweighed data and reasoning; also that ordinary people could not handle controversial ideas like heavy and light objects falling at the same speed.

The modern science student does not have to contend with all that, because modern society assumes that ordinary people can handle all kinds of information.

I probably never loaded anything to max like Keith routinely did. Except maybe one time when I used a middling book load in surplus brass and forgot to subtract for the reduced volume, until after I seated the bullets.

But knowing how Keith developed (with colleagues) the .357 and .44 using available guns and cases, and a little common sense, helps me understand the parameters. So even if these young clerks do not want to load like EK did, his story has value beyond handing them a loading manual and telling them that's all you need to know, or can be trusted with.

[Ajax]

In my opinion, most people only learn what interests them. I am a fan of history not just guns. I am also a fan of muscle cars. That doesn't mean that i know every person involved with the design of the corvette, charger or the super bee. I know what has interested me and that is fine. I have never read any of Keith's writing as they don't interest me (yet). I assure you when something interests me i am as ravenous as a pit bull with rabies on finding all i can to read about it. I do not find any fault in people not knowing about a subject i do, because not everyone shares my interest even in the same hobby. So i guess if you haven't taken the time to try to teach others the knowledge you have garnered over time or refer them to the proper info who really is the issue. The young men in question could have been directed to the proper information if approached properly. It really comes down to do you want to be upset they don't know or do you want to share the knowledge of the past and show them where to find that information you put so much stock in.

Andy

[ddixie884]

I'm a real fan of the old standard gun writers from the 50s thru the 80s. They shot some heavy loads, but many more standard and target loads. Elmer only fired 600 heavy magnum loads thru his new .44mag the first year. He and Skeeter shot a lot of .38spl. Jordan shot nearly all .38s. They told things like they saw them and didn't care about Douting Thomases.

[Who's this Guy ?]

The majority of the younger guys these days do not know about Keith is because of the changing times. The younger crowd for the most part are not even into revolvers and when the .44 magnum is mentioned they will think Dirty Harry before Elmer who? and that's if they even know who Dirty Harry is as well. The younger generation seems to be into any thing made of black plastic and tactical looking. Sorry but it is what it is, Grandpa's revolvers are just not cool these days.

[cbrick]

Grandpa's revolvers are just not cool these days.

I should be able to pick up a whole bunch of them pretty cheap then.

Rick

[Who's this Guy ?]

I should be able to pick up a whole bunch of them pretty cheap then.

Rick

No, still many Grandpa's around buying and sellin' them :grin:

[btroj]

In my opinion, most people only learn what interests them. I am a fan of history not just guns. I am also a fan of muscle cars. That doesn't mean that i know every person involved with the design of the corvette, charger or the super bee. I know what has interested me and that is fine. I have never read any of Keith's writing as they don't interest me (yet). I assure you when something interests me i am as ravenous as a pit bull with rabies on finding all i can to read about it. I do not find any fault in people not knowing about a subject i do, because not everyone shares my interest even in the same hobby. So i guess if you haven't taken the time to try to teach others the knowledge you have garnered over time or refer them to the proper info who really is the issue. The young men in question could have been directed to the proper information if approached properly. It really comes down to do you want to be upset they don't know or do you want to share the knowledge of the past and show them where to find that information you put so much stock in.

Andy

Exactly.

[btroj]

A handgun shooter not knowing about Elmer Keith is a deplorable state of ignorance.

A handgun shooter not caring about Elmer Keith is a classic state of stupid.

Condition One is fixable, all you need to do is read "Sixguns".

Condition Two can't be fixed. All you can do is pity that someone.

Reading "Safari" was one of the reasons I first hunted Africa. I hope to make my fourth trip this late summer.

Rich
SW Idaho


Now, all that remains is for the two groups to separate themselves here by their posts. Several already have...

Bull.

I have read Keith but it isn't because I own handguns, it is because it interested me.

I own a 1911 but don't care to read Cooper, does that make me ignorant?

It isn't about ignorance, it is about level of interest. If I own a handgun strictly for home defense then what do I care about Keith? Concealed carry is the same way. Plinkers too.

Not every gun owner is a gun nut. Deal with it. Get over it.

[dragon813gt]

A handgun shooter not knowing about Elmer Keith is a deplorable state of ignorance.

A handgun shooter not caring about Elmer Keith is a classic state of stupid.


So I'm ignorant and stupid because I don't care about a gun magazine writer? I fail to see why people think he is end all be all. Why do I know John Moses Browning? Because he designed a lot of firearms and pushed the industry ahead technologically. It comes back to that one word that I mentioned in another post, importance. So calling someone ignorant and stupid because they don't know about a man of little importance is just silly.

[C. Latch]

It's worth noting tat, whether you like their grasp of history or not, at least these LGS employees HAVE JOBS. That's a far sight better than a lot of folks now.

An ignorant idiot who has a job and lives on his paycheck doesn't hurt me. Unless he votes for people who hurt me, but that's another subject.

[btroj]

So I'm ignorant and stupid because I don't care about a gun magazine writer? I fail to see why people think he is end all be all. Why do I know John Moses Browning? Because he designed a lot of firearms and pushed the industry ahead technologically. It comes back to that one word that I mentioned in another post, importance. So calling someone ignorant and stupid because they don't know about a man of little importance is just silly.

It's ok. I don't get excited about mil slurps so I am probably unpatriotic.

I think some of the guys here need to read this thread. It sure pertains to them.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?227145-Hypothesis-of-fanaticism

[JSnover]

Why do I know John Moses Browning? Because he designed a lot of firearms and pushed the industry ahead technologically. It comes back to that one word that I mentioned in another post, importance.

Browning is important but Keith isn't? You don't have to worship anyone but each of them pushed the industry ahead.

[btroj]

He didn't say that. He said he views the work Browning did as important. To him.

Ever think at he might be more interested in the mechanics and engineering of a firearm than in the guys who shoot em?

It come down to perspective and the ability to respect the fact that other people may not share yours.

[osteodoc08]

Im 32. I guess I know who he is because my father taught me. I grew up reading Raurk, Capstick, etc. as a teen I remember reading Elmer's "Hell, I was there". I guess it's in your upbringing and teachings. Use it as an opportunity to teach them.

Today's gonna be a sunny cool day here in NW GA. I did load up some 41 Mag with 220 gr Keith bullets over some TrailBoss for some easy plinking. I also loaded up some Hot 45 Colt loads for my Ruger BH and RH with 310 LBT designed boolits and GASP 300gr Sierra FP bullets. Gonna give them a try today. Just want it to warm up a few more degrees.

[JSnover]

It's worth noting tat, whether you like their grasp of history or not, at least these LGS employees HAVE JOBS. That's a far sight better than a lot of folks now.

An ignorant idiot who has a job and lives on his paycheck doesn't hurt me. Unless he votes for people who hurt me, but that's another subject.

And they suck. I run into them often enough to hope they are replaced by someone who cares enough to do their job well. I don't mind dealing with a new guy who hasn't had decades to learn but I sure don't like dealing with ignorant idiots.

[idahoron]

I read the book "Hell I was there". I am not so sure I am a more well rounded outdoor guy/gun nut/ or individual because I read it. I have read and own several Jack O'connor books even a couple of very hard to find books. I liked his style of writing better than Kieth. The reason we like some and don't others is personal. I found O'connor to be more interesting, and more entertaining. I think he was funny as heck.
One thing I have found is if you idolize someone you end up regretting meeting them. They tend to not live up to the standard you have thought they would. In fact some of the writers I have met I didn't care for at all in person. Kieth is probably a whole lot more likable in writing than in person. I think the same goes for O'connor and the rest of them. Ron

[waksupi]

I spent years doing reproductions, and still build muzzle loaders. Some aficionados start spouting facts and figures about various builders or subjects related, and I have never heard of who or what they are talking about. I still know what I am doing, so don't concern myself too much about what others think I should know.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

It is interesting to the one PM response I got to my post. From nsb,;vulgarity and profanity, and personal insults, no surprise there. I would say the necrophilic references were a bit out of order. His spelling and grammar leave much to be desired. But, that was to be expected considering his original post.

regards,

Rich

[bhn22]

Is just a job, man...

[JSnover]

It is interesting to the one PM response I got to my post. From nsb,;vulgarity and profanity, and personal insults, no surprise there. I would say the necrophilic references were a bit out of order. His spelling and grammar leave much to be desired. But, that was to be expected considering his original post.

regards,

Rich

Maybe he just wanted to prove your point...

[Geraldo]

I'm pushing 50 and I've read very little of Keith's writing. I'm sure I read some articles, but none of his books. Same with most of the other gunwriters of that generation. I have read Roosevelt, Selous, and Kephart.

[btroj]

Is just a job, man...

Pretty much. Seems that some are offended by that.

[btroj]

It is interesting to the one PM response I got to my post. From nsb,;vulgarity and profanity, and personal insults, no surprise there. I would say the necrophilic references were a bit out of order. His spelling and grammar leave much to be desired. But, that was to be expected considering his original post.

regards,

Rich

I didn't send a PM as I didn't want to waste the electrons.

[btroj]

I spent years doing reproductions, and still build muzzle loaders. Some aficionados start spouting facts and figures about various builders or subjects related, and I have never heard of who or what they are talking about. I still know what I am doing, so don't concern myself too much about what others think I should know.

Damn straight man. If you are building me a rifle I am paying for your ability to make a rifle. If I want a history lesson I will read a book or take a class.

I don't go to my mechanic to learn the history of Ford, I go there to get my car fixed.

Some are just too short sighted to understand that not everyone cares about what they care about.

[MT Chambers]

He lived in simpler times, when you wrote about your experiences and it wasn't boasting......I can't believe anyone could work in a gunshop and not have heard of Elmer Keith!!

[JSnover]

Would you like that repro to be period-correct, proper markings, style, methods used, etc? That might involve some research. Some learnin,' maybe a little historical knowledge...

[btroj]

Knowing the rifle style and knowing the man are two different things. I am sure Waksupi knows his craft plenty well.

[Charley]

I suspect if Keith looked at this thread, he'd laugh his *** off, shake his head, then go shooting...

[ACrowe25]

Most likely would be at the range reading while taking a break in the first place.

Maybe not... Never seen him as a smartphone kinda guy' lol

[cbrick]

Hehe, know Elmer? When I was still living in lala land I was plenty pleased when I went into any store and they knew what I came in for because they actually spoke English. That didn't happen as often as ya may think. :roll:

Rick

[tygar]

I dunno. A man came I to my shop a while back. We got to talking guns while I worked on his truck. He made the proud claim that he believed the .270 to be the finest cartridge ever made.
I says to him, "I can neither agree nor disagree BUT, you certainly have the support of all writings of Jack O'Connor."
You'd have thought I tried to explain quantam physics or sumthin. Never heard of the guy.
I told him go google it. Then go to amazon and buy a book or two. You CANNOT be a .270 fan and not read Jack O'Connor.

People....



I'm sure some fool thinks he's good with a revolver but ain't never heard of McGivern or Miculek.

Here we are in the Information Age and people can't even fricken read. If you think you got an idea that's new, well, I bet you a dollar somebody already did it.

LOL I just asked about necking up a M71 .348 to .458 thinking it would be a great brush thumper. Well it didn't take long for me to be told that it had been made into the .450 Alaskan, a Ackley & others. duhhhh I personally knew Johnson who originated the .450 but just plain forgot about it.

Just spent 2 days re reading about it & found CRS disease is surely present in this old brain.

Hate to think about all the stuff I've read or learned that I've forgot. lol but no excuse for the young guys.
TOm

[bedbugbilly]

I'm 61 and although I've run across Keith's name and probably somewhere along the line, read some of his writings . . . that doesn't make me a better shooter or special. I applaud anyone who wants to write and share their experiences . . . but we all put our pants on the same way every morning and just because someone hasn't heard of somebody that someone else thinks is "important" . . doesn't make 'em any less of a person. From the sounds of the original post . . . it sounds like two old "know it alls" baiting a couple of younger guys and then having a laugh at their expense. If that's all a person has to do, then I sort of feel sorry for 'em. Writing a book or articles isn't what makes a person "remembered" . . . being kind to others and helping to educate them if they want it - i.e. sharing knowledge and helping others is what makes a person "remembered". I have a feeling that the OP and his gun store buddy will be remembered by those two younger clerks . . but not for their knowledge for for the right reasons. I would imagine they could ask the OP and his buddy some questions as well that they would have no idea of what they were talking about. Hmmmm . . . would that make the OP and his gun store buddy "ignorant" as well?

[waksupi]

Would you like that repro to be period-correct, proper markings, style, methods used, etc? That might involve some research. Some learnin,' maybe a little historical knowledge...

I assume you have never seen any of my work.

[btroj]

It seems that what your work looks like doesn't matter, it only matters that you "know" the right stuff.

[AZ-JIM]

I dont think the meat and potatoes of this post comes down to being a Kieth expert as a prerequisite in order to work at a gun store. But it would do the kid some good to briefly study the matter. I have recently been reintroduced to rc cars, and have a variety of hobby stores to shop at. One is only a few blocks away but I wont hardly shop there unless the owner is in, one kid tries to be helpfull but just doesnt have the backgdound, which is ok because he tries, the other one however, I want to slap him silly when I get stuck with him, he is the epitome of damn lazy sob and acts like you are interrupting his nap time. I have another store I go to, farther away but happy to do so because the kid there actually has an interest in what he is doing. I do my research and when I narrow down what I want I ask him for his opinion and recommendation. The gun store is the same way, knowing who invented radio communication or semi wadcutters are not required for either. It does make the experience more enjoyable however.

az-jim

[Sweetpea]

This thread has turned quite sophomoric...

[btroj]

Yes it has