Do I *need* a Lyman M-die to reload 30-30 with cast?

[C. Latch]

I have 30-30 dies (Lee, not my favorite, but what the store had when I bought them) and I have a mold and gas checks on the way. I slugged my bore (336 microgroove) and taking several measurements around the slug gave me .3085 to .3095 with one spot going .310, with calipers (I do not own a micrometer). Measurements were repeated with consistency.

So I'm going to order a .311 sizer. But how do I stuff these .311 bullets into a .308 case mouth? This will be my first time loading cast for a rifle. With pistols, thus far I have been able to size to the same diameter that jacketed bullets would be, so standard dies have worked.

Do I need the M die or is a 30-30 case going to 'give' enough to swallow a .311 bullet? Would it be sufficient to just use the case chamfering tool to put a taper on the inside of my necks?

Ammo will be used for plinking at no more than 100 yards. We're not looking for benchrest accuracy here. Also, if I do need the Lyman M-die, where do I get it? Didn't see them at a couple of places that stock other Lyman stuff.

[oger]

If you are using a gas check it will work on some but I ended up putting an old 30 Mauser expander ball (.312) in my RCBS die set.

[pworley1]

You will probably need something, but if you load for many calibers, you may already have an expander that will work. If you plan on loading cast in many different calibers the lee universal expander might be a good choice.

[Airman Basic]

You will shave lead if the case neck is not expanded:
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=lyman+m+die&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=7249946888&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4868331451412178027&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_20hy80yevp_e
Amazon's shipping is cheaper than just about everybody else.

[sundog]

Give the case mouth a twist on a needle nose plier, and you'll have enough flare to start the boolit. Adjust your twist pressure for more or less flare.

[clodhopper]

Micro grove rifleing usually does better with fatter bullets, standard .30-30 dies are desinged for .308 jacketed bullets.
So you might need to enlarge the neck to accept the bullet and flare the case mouth to start the bullet in the case.
Many 7.62X39 die sets have .308 and .311 expander balls in them.
An old trick to flare the case mouth, use a center punch with a nice taper and manually wobble it around inside the neck.
The lee universal neck expander gives the flare but does little for excess neck tension.
A "M" die really is the easy wat to do it.
The expander is sized a bit larger for softer bullets, with brass trimmed to a uniform length, just the right amount of flare can be put on each case.

[clodhopper]

Wow sundog, the needle nose pliers, sounds better than the center punch!

[Newtire]

I like the idea of an oversize expander ball. I called Lyman and found out that you can get just the expander button by itself for their M-Dies so now have the ones I have calibers to load for. The M-die helps the boolit go in straight and seat concentric. Seems before I had those things, that the needle nose worked just fine though. If you're not trying for sub-MOA groups and all, these other methods are perfect for "minute of pop-can" easy.

[C. Latch]

Ok, I found that Lee sells just their expander pins, and here's one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/295693/lee-ez-x-expander-decapping-rod-303-british-77mm-japanese-32-40-wcfreplacement-part

That would be perfect.

Alternately.....this would be the ultimate in 'cheap', could I just spray a coat of powder-coat on my expander, bake it, and bring it up from .308 (just measured it) to .310?

FWIW I have used the hand-flaring method before; I loaded some .45 ACP before I had proper dies; I could make .45 Colt dies work but needed something to bell the case mouth; I found that I could put an empty 7mm Remington magnum case down in the .45 ACP case, the shoulder of the 7mm would bear against the mouth of the .45, then a gentle tap with a hammer made a nice bell.

Anyway, thanks for the replies. I'm gonna see if I can get the Lee expander pin from somewhere else; I don't shop midway much but want to buy somewhere that has the other things I need in stock so I can get by with one shipping charge. I've bought a fair bit of lead and powder this month and really need to take it easy on new purchases for a while.

[TXGunNut]

I like your powder coat idea but suspect best results will be gained with an expander of the correct size. I bought a set of RCBS Cowboy dies awhile back in 32 WS and ordered an expander for my 30-30 so I could use it for both cartridges. Well under the price of a Lyman expander, IIRC. Threads are the same as Lyman's M die. BACO makes custom expanders for a reasonable price, I think one or more of our members offers them as well.

[Newtire]

I like your powder coat idea but suspect best results will be gained with an expander of the correct size. I bought a set of RCBS Cowboy dies awhile back in 32 WS and ordered an expander for my 30-30 so I could use it for both cartridges. Well under the price of a Lyman expander, IIRC. Threads are the same as Lyman's M die. BACO makes custom expanders for a reasonable price, I think one or more of our members offers them as well.

I like Buffalo Arms stuff but the lyman expander plug runs about $7.00, Buffalo Arms runs $19.00.

You have to call Lyman and ask for just the plug, not the whole M-Die. Funny that they don't list it in their catalog as being sold separately..? I was buying the M-Dies before I found that out from one of the members here so thought I'd pass that along.

[Char-Gar]

Here are your "needs";

1. You need something to open up the cast mouth so you won't shave lead as the bullet is seated.
2. If you are looking for best accuracy, you need something that will open up the case neck to .309 or better yet .310. How often the cases have been sized and thereby the necks work hardened is a factor, as harder brass will deform the bullet more in seating. On one, twice, or three times sized .309 is OK. After that either anneal the necks or use a .310 expander. A .310 expander is OK for brass of any age.

[williamwaco]

I think by now you may be seeing a pattern.

You CAN load cast .30-30 ammo with the dies you have but you can load better ammo with MUCH less trouble with the M Die.

I have used the needle nose pliers in an emergency and they work well but they are not a solution for good ammo.

[C. Latch]

Ok, thanks, folks. I found that FSreloading had the Lee pin (303 british size) for $3.00. I was paying shipping so I went ahead and grabbed a few other little whatnots. Should have the new pin in next week about the same time that my mold shows up.

[C. Latch]

Here are your "needs";

1. You need something to open up the cast mouth so you won't shave lead as the bullet is seated.
2. If you are looking for best accuracy, you need something that will open up the case neck to .309 or better yet .310. How often the cases have been sized and thereby the necks work hardened is a factor, as harder brass will deform the bullet more in seating. On one, twice, or three times sized .309 is OK. After that either anneal the necks or use a .310 expander. A .310 expander is OK for brass of any age.

I wonder: could I ream 0.002" out of my sizing die so that it worked the neck down less to start with? I suppose that would be optimum, but maybe more trouble than it was worth if I had to pay someone to do it correctly. I could buy a gob of brass for what that would cost, and I don't figure on shooting this thing *that* much anyway.

For that matter, with low-pressure loads do I even need to size 30-30 cases at all?

[mdi]

Seems to be some that confuse expanders with mouth flaring tools. An expander shapes the entire neck. A flaring tool just tapers the case mouth outward. An M die is kinda in between; it puts a small "step" of slightly larger ID and a slight taper to the case mouth (or at least mine did). When in doubt, ask the guy that made it...http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/rifle-die-details.php?brand=3&cartridge=26&die=52

I shoot cast in my 30-30. I seat a bullet with my regular dies, then remove the bullet and measure it. If the bullet diameter has not been reduced by the case neck tension, I'm good to go. If there is a significant reduction (.002") I'll look at changing the expander to increase the ID of the case mouth. The case mouth flare is to eliminate lead shaving when seating lead bullets and essentially anything with a taper shoved into the case to open up the mouth will work. I've tried .223 brass and it worked.

[35remington]

"The lee universal neck expander gives the flare but does little for excess neck tension.
A "M" die really is the easy wat to do it."

"I have used the needle nose pliers in an emergency and they work well but they are not a solution for good ammo."

Both of these statements repeat popularly held but erroneous beliefs.

First, the M die in the "appropriate" type purchased for cast bullet use do not "oversize" the case neck for special treatment to the cast bullet. The diameter of the expander is nothing special as they were intended for correct tension with jacketed bullets as well. In other words, if you buy the 30 caliber M die it sizes to the same ID as that found in your standard sizing die. It does nothing special for the cast bullet. I do not make this claim in an idle way as I have quite a few M dies.

For that reason, using a needlenose pliers is not shortchanging yourself greatly. Since correct usage of the seating die is the greatest contributor to straight bullet alignment with the loaded cartridge, not having an M die does not subject the handloader to substandard results.

I often reload on the range, and flare with needlenose pliers to avoid having to set up yet another press (I use several lightweight C presses and a hand press). Extensive testing has been done and careful records kept as to any difference in accuracy results between M die'd cases and those simply flared with needlenose pliers.

There simply isn't any such difference. You may want to eventually get an M die. But you won't be a second class citizen until you do, and if you "feel" that way there is no justification for that feeling in terms of results on target.

If you want "special" treatment for oversized cast bullets in, say, .22's or 25's or 27's or 28's, or.........you'll have to get an M die with a different diameter expander than the one Lyman supplies. Remember......theirs are for jacketed bullets, too. Lyman specifically mentions this is several of their past reloading manuals. Thus, what improvement for the cast bullet in terms of "special" expanded diameter? There isn't any.

[35remington]

C, getting that oversize Brit expander was the smart way to do it. Cheaper than the 30 M die and will size necks to a larger diameter (appropriate for the cast bullet of .311" that you will use) when used in conjunction with the Lee flaring die.

Good on ya. The only alternative is to get the M die for ".311" bullets. The standard 30 M die wouldn't help much in special sizing. Actually, not at all.

[Mk42gunner]

If I were buying an M die for loading .311" boolits in the .30-30, I would buy the 31R die.

Personally, I use either the expander die from an RCBS .30 carbine set or the M die from my Lyman .32 ACP/S&W Long set for my .30 caliber rifle loading.

There are many ways to expand the neck and flare the case mouth, the important thing is that you end up with straight ammunition, and the case neck doesn't squeeze the boolit to a smaller diameter.

Robert

[Char-Gar]

I wonder: could I ream 0.002" out of my sizing die so that it worked the neck down less to start with? I suppose that would be optimum, but maybe more trouble than it was worth if I had to pay someone to do it correctly. I could buy a gob of brass for what that would cost, and I don't figure on shooting this thing *that* much anyway.

For that matter, with low-pressure loads do I even need to size 30-30 cases at all?

Sure you could. Many cast bullet accuracy nuts use bushing neck sizing dies with bushing of the correct size to provide the proper tension on cast bullets. You still need to flair the case mouth a smidge to keep from shaving lead as the bullet enters the neck as the neck inside diameter will always be smaller than the bullet.

When you start splitting hairs that fine, you will need to consider the thickness of the brass in the neck because all makes of brass are the same. The nice thing about bushing dies, is you can have several to match the sizing of the neck to the thickness of the brass.

When you move beyond standard off the shell reloading dies and expanders, that are lots of things you can do to improve accuracy and make life easier for the cast bullet shooter.

RCBS makes a neat cast bullet neck expander with interchangeable buttons to expand and flair 30 caliber necks in .001 increments from .308 to .311. They are very hand gizmos.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Another alternative to buying the Lee .303 button is to have one of the guys on the board here custom make you a button that mimics the Lyman M die profile and install it in your Lee die. Should work really well.

[MT Chambers]

If you can afford it, get an M die for every RIFLE cartridge you load cast in, or get the Lee Universal, it will do all except the .50s, but it only bells the cases not expand to the size you need. In-line bullet seating dies will seat cast without belling and will not shave lead.

[williamwaco]

Sure you could. Many cast bullet accuracy nuts use bushing neck sizing dies with bushing of the correct size to provide the proper tension on cast bullets. You still need to flair the case mouth a smidge to keep from shaving lead as the bullet enters the neck as the neck inside diameter will always be smaller than the bullet.

When you start splitting hairs that fine, you will need to consider the thickness of the brass in the neck because all makes of brass are the same. The nice thing about bushing dies, is you can have several to match the sizing of the neck to the thickness of the brass.

When you move beyond standard off the shell reloading dies and expanders, that are lots of things you can do to improve accuracy and make life easier for the cast bullet shooter.

RCBS makes a neat cast bullet neck expander with interchangeable buttons to expand and flair 30 caliber necks in .001 increments from .308 to .311. They are very hand gizmos.

I did not know that.

I WANT one!

What do they call it?

[Airman Basic]

I did not know that.

I WANT one!

What do they call it?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/784123/rcbs-neck-expander-plug-311
Backordered, of course.

[454PB]

I made my own "M" dies many years ago, actually just a piece of 7/8" X 14tpi with a hole and set screw. The expanders are made for each caliber (I cast for all my rifles from .22 Hornet to 45/70) and simply interchanged as needed.

94579

These work well, but a few years ago I bought one of the Lee universal expanders and found through experimenting that it works about as well if the alloy is hard enough to resist being sized when the boolit is seated. In general, an alloy of 18 BHN or harder can be used with the Lee universal expander without deformation. If I'm using a softer alloy, I use my home made "M" expander.

[TXGunNut]

I like Buffalo Arms stuff but the lyman expander plug runs about $7.00, Buffalo Arms runs $19.00.

You have to call Lyman and ask for just the plug, not the whole M-Die. Funny that they don't list it in their catalog as being sold separately..? I was buying the M-Dies before I found that out from one of the members here so thought I'd pass that along.

The RCBS expander is much less money as well but sometimes I want to try a size not offered by Lyman or RCBS or maybe I prefer the profile of the BACO sizer. That's worth the extra $12 and a short wait to me.

[A pause for the COZ]

I use a 303 brit LEE expander followed by the universal expander die.
Seems to work.

[smkummer]

I only have one 30-30 chambered rifle so after the brass gets fired in my gun, I reload it by neck sizing with carbide 32 S&
W long dies and flare the mouth with the expander die in the same die set. I then load Lyman's 311291 gas check (sized at .311 to basically seat the gas check) with the standard 30-30 seat/crimp die. Lots of ways to do this and if the cartridge chambers easily (this could be an issue with going oversize) without shaving lead in the reloading process, then you are successful. My rifle is a pre-64 94 Winchester.