Mdl 71 .348 necked up to .458

[tygar]

I was thinking of taking a M71 & necking up the .348 to 458 & putting on a 20" brl. What do you guys think about doing that?

Since the same ctg would be used OAL should not be a problem. Any experience with something like that out there.

I like that M71 & 1/2 mag & I believe it's basically the same receiver as the 1886 so could be cool.

Been looking at the Brn 86 short rifle & may get one but like to make wildcats so this sounds doable.

Any thoughts pro or con?
Thanks
Tom

[yooper]

That's a great old wildcat. Parker Ackley and a number of other 'smiths made the 71 Winchester into wildcats from .400 to .500 back in the day. If you do it, make sure you modify the forearm cap to a one-piece cap surrounding the barrel and magazine tube, or it'll shoot loose of the mag tube to my understanding. You might want to google .450 Alaskan or .450 Johnson for more info. One of my biggest regrets is turning down a Model 71 Deluxe with the original barrel, a barrel in .348/416 and a third barrel in .450 Alaskan with all the work done by P.O. Ackley himself and with dies for each caliber. The owner was taking a job in Saudi Arabia and couldn't take guns with him. I could have had the whole thing for $500 (this was in the early-'70's) and didn't have the $$.:roll:
yooper

[tygar]

That's a great old wildcat. Parker Ackley and a number of other 'smiths made the 71 Winchester into wildcats from .400 to .500 back in the day. If you do it, make sure you modify the forearm cap to a one-piece cap surrounding the barrel and magazine tube, or it'll shoot loose of the mag tube to my understanding. You might want to google .450 Alaskan or .450 Johnson for more info. One of my biggest regrets is turning down a Model 71 Deluxe with the original barrel, a barrel in .348/416 and a third barrel in .450 Alaskan with all the work done by P.O. Ackley himself and with dies for each caliber. The owner was taking a job in Saudi Arabia and couldn't take guns with him. I could have had the whole thing for $500 (this was in the early-'70's) and didn't have the $$.:roll:
yooper

Thanks, I should have remembered that. I hate those great deals that you can't get or even worse, having had a gun & selling it for money then regretting it forever lol.

I am going to check on the ballistics of those mentioned.

Not used to doing stuff with levers. Lots of wildcats in bolts, so that's where my knowledge is.
THanks
Tom

[Le Loup Solitaire]

A number of wildcats have been developed based on the .348 and the M71. Taffin wrote on a number of them. They were very popular with guides in Alaska and worked well on big bears. As you would imagine the recoil was more than noticeable and the largest of those developed could and would tear the forearm/magazine tube off the rifle unless some reinforcement was made. Definitely a big stick, but the 71 could handle it. I have a stock 71 and its all I need. The 450-348 was considered the most powerful, using 50 and 400 grain bullets it produced performance around what you would get from a 458 Win Mag, in a lever gun. Nowadays the 50 Alaskan is a popular conversion; its a 348 blown out to a straight case and it hits hard at both ends. Nonneman Custom Rifles is a premier builder of these rifles as are a few other custom lever smiths around the country. A gentleman named Bob Hutton is credited with the original development of these wildcats and there were also Ackley designs involved. Should make interesting reading if you wish to pursue this project. LLS

[tygar]

A number of wildcats have been developed based on the .348 and the M71. Taffin wrote on a number of them. They were very popular with guides in Alaska and worked well on big bears. As you would imagine the recoil was more than noticeable and the largest of those developed could and would tear the forearm/magazine tube off the rifle unless some reinforcement was made. Definitely a big stick, but the 71 could handle it. I have a stock 71 and its all I need. The 450-348 was considered the most powerful, using 50 and 400 grain bullets it produced performance around what you would get from a 458 Win Mag, in a lever gun. Nowadays the 50 Alaskan is a popular conversion; its a 348 blown out to a straight case and it hits hard at both ends. Nonneman Custom Rifles is a premier builder of these rifles as are a few other custom lever smiths around the country. A gentleman named Bob Hutton is credited with the original development of these wildcats and there were also Ackley designs involved. Should make interesting reading if you wish to pursue this project. LLS

This is embarrassing. Lived in Alaska at various times between 70s & 2000s & actually knew about some of these wildcats & even met some of these guys, Jim Watts & Johnson. Just plain forgot cause of my military & bolt gun forte.

I reviewed a number of articles & info & am definitely going with the Johnson's version of the 450 Alaskan!

I know Jim West in Anchorage & we have traded & bought guns from each other for 30yrs & he did a custom 450 for me so I'm going to give him a shout & talk about it.

Bad for me but I also read about the .500 on the .348. I'm not sure but I think that's one of Wests wildcats. I had mentioned that I would like a 500 lever, so another to check out.

I'm going to have to just do 1 for now cause I have 2 bolts being done, a 338-06 & some variation of a .375 imp., plus a Para P15 comp being done & an AR10 receiver that's going to be a match gun.

Sure glad I asked about this. I'm excited, I love boomers & must have 10-15 40+ cals. I really hope I can get casts to shoot hot in them. Although I have lots (1000s) of 45 bullets, they are expensive now & I don't do gun shows anymore where I'd buy them cheap from people coming thru. Plus most of mine are 500s & I like shooting the 400s better. I even have a 400 load for my .458 double that is 1" at 50 to point of aim.

Thanks to you guys. Good info, got me going.
Thanks
TOm

[fouronesix]

They were very popular with guides in Alaska and worked well on big bears. As you would imagine the recoil was more than noticeable and the largest of those developed could and would tear the forearm/magazine tube off the rifle unless some reinforcement was made.

That's true as Harold Johnson of Cooper Landing AK found out early on.

Tygar, you can look up the history of Harold Johnson and his wildcatted 71's. Very interesting story. And yes the 71s and 86s share the same basic action so could be considered similarly for such a build. Also, you could browse through Turnbull's customized Winchester levers.

[tygar]

That's true as Harold Johnson of Cooper Landing AK found out early on.

Tygar, you can look up the history of Harold Johnson and his wildcatted 71's. Very interesting story. And yes the 71s and 86s share the same basic action so could be considered similarly for such a build. Also, you could browse through Turnbull's customized Winchester levers.

Yep, I remember now. The guides use to like the .348 & conversions. Now a lot use the .450 & I guess maybe 45-70. Johnson & Watts were interesting old guys. Lots of stories. I just could never figure how a little guy like Watts, designed & shot the .450 Watts.
Tom

[dverna]

It hurts just thinking about it. I suppose I could load something like that with cast bullets at 1000 fps and still have fun with it.

Don Verna

[tygar]

It hurts just thinking about it. I suppose I could load something like that with cast bullets at 1000 fps and still have fun with it.

Don Verna

Ah no, there no fun until they make you cry. lol
TOm

[starmac]

Bullshop has an old 86 in 50 Alaskan. He also cast and sells bullets for them or at least used to. I would almost bet Dan has what ever boolit you need, as he likes the big boomers too. From what I understand, when they first started necking the 348 up to 50 Alaskan, they cut 50 bmg bullets in half to use.

[JFE]

Personally if you were going to use the 348 case, I would instead opt for a 45/90 conversion. Performance won't be much different. I had one built on a Browning 71 and had considered the various 450/348 options, but the sheer practicality of the 45/90 won out in the end.

The problem with the various 450/348 versions is simply that there are several versions around and a few cite problems matching chambers to die sets. Also the neck length of the Ackley and other versions IMO is too short for use with cast pills, particularly if you like keeping the grease grooves out of the boiler room.

If you still have a desire to wildcat I would suggest you consider building one using a full length 50/110 case (this was the parent case of the 348) necked to 450 but with a longer neck for cast use. A wildcat like this, just like the 45/90, would allow you to use all the jacketed and cast pills designed for levergun 45/70's ie the crimp groove would be in the right location for proper functioning.

The 45/90 is very practical: Starline make strong cases and inexpensive dies are available from Lyman and RCBS.

In any event pick a twist rate around 18-20" and you will stabilize anything up to 500 gr. You do need to make some changes to the magazine retention system, but there is no need to resort to the arrangement the original 450 Alaskan used, which, to my mind at least, is not a very elegant solution.

Here's a link to a post where I used mine on buffalo last year.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215718-Leverguns-cast-bullets-and-buffalo

[tygar]

Personally if you were going to use the 348 case, I would instead opt for a 45/90 conversion. Performance won't be much different. I had one built on a Browning 71 and had considered the various 450/348 options, but the sheer practicality of the 45/90 won out in the end.

The problem with the various 450/348 versions is simply that there are several versions around and a few cite problems matching chambers to die sets. Also the neck length of the Ackley and other versions IMO is too short for use with cast pills, particularly if you like keeping the grease grooves out of the boiler room.

If you still have a desire to wildcat I would suggest you consider building one using a full length 50/110 case (this was the parent case of the 348) necked to 450 but with a longer neck for cast use. A wildcat like this, just like the 45/90, would allow you to use all the jacketed and cast pills designed for levergun 45/70's ie the crimp groove would be in the right location for proper functioning.

The 45/90 is very practical: Starline make strong cases and inexpensive dies are available from Lyman and RCBS.

In any event pick a twist rate around 18-20" and you will stabilize anything up to 500 gr. You do need to make some changes to the magazine retention system, but there is no need to resort to the arrangement the original 450 Alaskan used, which, to my mind at least, is not a very elegant solution.

Here's a link to a post where I used mine on buffalo last year.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215718-Leverguns-cast-bullets-and-buffalo

Wow really cool. Nice bull. Just want to know, why didn't you just mesmerize him like Crocodile Dundee does?? lol

I thought OAL would be critical to reliable function, that is a question. Also why go bigger case when the amount of powder & pressure are limited?

Have to admit I know nothing about any of the old cases 45-90 etc. Have had only 1 45-70 & its being traded & the .450, so other than peripheral knowledge I only know they are longer than the 45-70.

Also given your ballistics using the cast you are duplicating 45-70 type loads so is there a reason to use that round?

According to what I have read the Johnson, 450 Alaskan does not have trouble & functions with out any mods.

I am going to talk to some guys who make these & discuss the pitfalls & fixes.

What was it that caused you to use the 45 cases instead? Is the potential power greater?

Let me know your thought process on this.
Thanks
Tom

[JFE]

Only Crocodile Dundee can do that. Glad you liked the story and hope it gives you some inspiration to take your project forward.

Overall length is critical in these leverguns as they will only tolerate a narrow OAL band before functioning becomes an issue. The 45/90 and 50/110 cases are both 2.40" long and the rifle can be tuned to accept cartridges loaded to 2.88" (max) like the 1886. I loaded mine to 2.80" and that's easy to do using most 45/70 jacketed and cast bullets.

Pressure and powder capacity are two different things. The pressure is limited but these actions are very strong, certainly a lot stronger than Marlins. Some suggest that they can handle pressures of around 50K but I purposely loaded mine to 40K. 348 ammo is loaded to around 43-45K and they show no pressure signs and seem mild in M71's. The loads I have seen published for the 450 Alaskan and the Ackley versions are probably pushing fairly high pressures. For a rifle where functioning is very important, I chose to play it safe. A larger capacity case allows for loading to a higher velocity while keeping pressures the same. Eg look at 308 and 300 WM - same pressure but the larger capacity produces higher velocity. Like I mentioned, if you want to boost velocity further, a custom wildcat based on a full length 50/110 case necked down to 458 would be a good option. This would probably yield 15% more capacity with the heavier bullets than a 45/90.

FWIW my 45/90 loads with the 500gr bullet (actually 525 gr) are mild and the 45/70 maxes out at around 1550 fps at 40K pressures. Just look at the length of that bullet in one of the photos - it occupies a lot of space and wouldn't leave a lot of room for powder in a 45/70.

Winchesters have issues with magazine retention under heavy recoil. Here is how I had mine set up. I had the smith remove the threading on the mag tube - on certain models (the 348 being one of them) the mag tubes are threaded into the receiver. Its a fine thread that eventually gives way if you use heavy loads. This made the tube a slip fit and was necessary for the next step. I had the smith first dovetail then silver solder a mag retention stud on to the barrel (the stud was from a Marlin 1895). The magazine cap and the tube then had to be altered to fit over the stud. I then had the fitting that retains the forend cap silver soldered to the barrel. You could also upsize the screws that retain the forend cap. The way Johnson retained the barrel is not a good look IMO and detracts from the fine lines of the 71. Some of what I had done is all Turnbull does with his conversions to prevent the magazine and the barrel parting company. Anyhow, the changes are subtle and the system works perfectly.

Finding a smith that understands how to tune leverguns for proper functioning is very important but should be a lot easier to do in the US than over here.

[pietro]

.

Guns of the Old West (a gun rag) had an article a few years back (Issue #58 - Summer 2008), about a Model 71 that had been rebarreled to .45-70 with a lifter/carrier change (to one from a browning Model 1886/86), by Regan Nooneman of Nonneman Custom Guns - which was sweeeeeet.

IMO, that's the best way to go.


.

[tygar]

[QUOTE=pietro;2583165].

Guns of the Old West (a gun rag) had an article a few years back, about a Model 71 that had been rebarreled to .45-70 with a lifter/carrier change (to one from a model 1886/86), which was sweeeeeet.QUOTE


Probably a good gun but I've had 45-70 & I'd just buy another Marlin for 1/2 the price of a 71 if I want another one or a lt wt 86 clone.

I'm just a gun guy & am always coming up with some new toy. Lots of wildcats & customs & when I get on a kick I just have to do something new (to me).

My last one was a 6.5-06. Have a 1000yd gun in 6.5-284 & knew about the 06 & happened to run across a set of dies for it...so needed to make one.

So to make it interesting, I challenged my gunsmith to make one that was less than 8lbs & would shoot better than a minute at 500yds. He did, I got it & it shoots 2" at 500.

Actually, I was with him today at his table at the sportsman show & we talked about the .338-06 he's making on one of my mauser or sako 06s.

I think this M71 conversion may take a while. I need to find a decent gun, preferably used that we can work on. I think I may want to case color it & put an octagonal brl on it just for grins, put a ghost ring receiver site & a sissy pad.

I was also considering making it in .375 but didn't see anything to make me want one. Have a wildcat 375/338 on a 1962 Browning safari & it actually surpasses my 375 H&Hs in velocity & is very accurate so don't really need a less powerful one.

Nope, I think the .450 Alaskan will be a good fit. Lots of good bullet selection. I like the 350-400gr in my lever 45s so their is plenty of options. I have been shooting more 400s than 500s in my .458 class rifles, including my double in .458. They are big enough & with the new BCs you can get, it is a fairly long range shooter.

Well no one has talked me out of it.

Thanks
Tom

[JFE]

If you have an itch you just have to scratch, then there's only one option and you would never be satisfied with anything else.

I would only caution that before you ream the chamber just make sure the reamer is compatible with the dies you intend to use. Its not a standardized cartridge and there are a few versions of "450 Alaskan" around. Worst case, factor in your smith making a set of dies for you, then you should be fine.

The other point is that if you are sticking to a 45 calibre take a look at the various versions of the modern 1886 models that Winchester made. Since you're looking at CCH anyway, you can swap out the rebounding hammer etc for Browning 1886 parts and have the hole left by removing the tang safety welded over before CCH treatment. The late model Win 1886's came in oct and round barrels, straight and pistol grip, 22 -26" barrels, solid frame and takedown versions - so quite few were and are still being made. They even made some in 45/90.

Using one of these that is closer to what you want as a base will likely save you a lot of money.

Good luck.

[bearcove]

Other thing to remember is a $500 Marlin 1895 in 45-70 will get you in the same power neighborhood. Most give up cause of recoil before the rifle is maxed.

[fouronesix]

tygar,
I think I know where you are coming from. I have gone through the same "itch" cycles before. I don't think I would chop up one of my original 71s, but can understand the want for something different or special.

Ergonomically, the 71 fits me very well so I can visualize it being a good platform on which to build a big cousin to the 348. But with the right bullet, the 348 is no pea shooter either.

To me the most direct way to upsize the 348 in the 71 would be the 375/348 or the 45/348 (as you posted). No argument from me in wanting to jump straight to the 45 cal. I also agree with bearcove about the Marlins (which would apply to a 45 cal 71 carbine in the same way) in that you'll probably run out of shoulder before reaching max top loads :) I shoot a variety of heavy recoiling rifles but no matter, shooting them a bunch and enjoying them with full bore loads gets real old, real quick. The initial woohoos do wear off.

So, I can see the classic 45 cal Alaskan in the 71 as being a good choice. Currently, I don't know about the availability of 348 brass nor custom dies- I picked up a lifetime supply of 348 brass when it was readily available and relatively cheap.

[MtGun44]

What would this do that a .45-70 wouldn't do just as well?

Bill

[tommag]

I have a Siamese Mauser in .450 Alaskan. Brass was hard to find at that time, and some new old stock ones split while fireforming with bullseye, corn meal, and wax. Annealing helped a bunch.
50-110 brass resized easily with a little trimming.

[tygar]

What would this do that a .45-70 wouldn't do just as well?

Bill

A couple hundred feet. But that isn't the issue. I like to make wildcats. That is the whole point of this exercise. I like the 1/2 mag M71, like 45s, thought I had come up with a nugget until I was reminded that it had been done several times before, which I knew, but forgot. CRS disease. Still I good idea. Besides, if it was comparable Johnson could have just used it instead of making what he found was a better cartridge.

Actually making one in 458 would be what I'd really like but that won't work from all the info I've got.

The 348 & 50-110 brass were immediately available at Midway & this was my only search so I guess it's readily available. Not cheap but there so I think getting what I need in brass will not be a problem.

As for sizing to .375, I had checked into it because I like 375s a lot also, but it didn't do enough for me and as I already have a 338/375 that is an az kicker with bal. better than my H&Hs, I'll stick with the 45. Also considered a 416 but have them, & they don't have the bullet selection that the 45s have & a 416 Taylor on one of my 1917 actions is being mulled around.

So, we'll see how this goes. I have a line on an orig 71 with some bad wood & worn but maybe sound so I may follow up on it.
Thanks
Tom

[bearcove]

I understand the tinkering part. I still want a 50 Ak even though I'll argue its overkill and a hot loaded 45-70 is good for cape buffalo or anything else that walks.

[tygar]

I understand the tinkering part. I still want a 50 Ak even though I'll argue its overkill and a hot loaded 45-70 is good for cape buffalo or anything else that walks.

I just can't get on the 45-70 band wagon. I like to stuff more powder in something that is for stuff that bites & stomps. lol

[bearcove]

Always has enough room for me. Even Ruger #1 loads aren't compressed. Some of those are only 200 fps behind 458 win mag

[tygar]

Always has enough room for me. Even Ruger #1 loads aren't compressed. Some of those are only 200 fps behind 458 win mag

Ya but can't compare a #1 with a lever. But it's chevys & fords, some like em, some don't. I'm just not a 45-70 guy.

I have a friend with a 45-70 bolt that is pretty fast so I know in some aps it can be pretty good, just not for me.

That's why I kept the .450 Marlin instead. Got a little more out of it & just like it better.
Tom

[bearcove]

Hm... 450 marlin is smaller than the 45-70 but to each his own.

If practicallity was the rule, We'd all have 30-06's and nothing else.

[tygar]

The 450 can be loaded to higher pressure than the 45-70, it achieves at least the same velocity with smaller loads, it loads in the rifle easier, & I still like it better. Fords & chevys. Were talking levers. In a bolt or Ruger It also compares.

[bearcove]

Pressure is a function of gun strength. The case is just a gasket. Modern 45-70 brass like I get from starline is not a limiting factor.

[JFE]

Pressure is a function of gun strength. The case is just a gasket. Modern 45-70 brass like I get from starline is not a limiting factor.

FWIW they might look the same, but Marlins in 450M are stronger than those in 45/70.

[tygar]

FWIW they might look the same, but Marlins in 450M are stronger than those in 45/70.


FWIW they might look the same, but Marlins in 450M are stronger than those in 45/70.

I owned both the 45-70 & 450 marlin in Marlin GG, & tested them side by side. I worked up loads with the same powders & bullets & shot them both over chrony & for accuracy. The 450 was better, faster, easier to load,(both reloading & putting the round in the gate) & more accurate. Period....but that was for me! I can't comment on your experience. As I have said several times, what others like is fine with me! What I like is all that matters to me! Chevys/Fords.

I think we need to end this 45-70 stuff. It is not what the thread was about.

The 450 Alaskan achieves about 200' more with a 500, that's significant and that is what we were talking about.

I am also going to research using the 50-110 brass as suggested by JFE & see if I can squeeze even more out of it, if length, pressure are within limits.

How soon will depend on getting an action or rifle at the right price to do it & fit it into other stuff like the 375H&H I'm re barreling, or rechambering into an imp, the 338/06 that is also currently in the shop to be made & I am always liable to get the bug for another F class or 1k gun or long range hunter.

I'm also picking up a .454 lever this week so I'll have that to play with & see if it can shoot the 460 S&W. Long time ago I checked with their gunsmith in the warrantee shop & he said he/they had done it.

Boys & toys.
Tom

[bearcove]

Only change I know is the barrel is threaded different. Might have a little more meat around the chamber. I don't worry, an 8 lb loaded rifle with a peep sight loaded a bit warm is plenty for me! I'll never break the gun. From what I've been able to find researching them some folks are shooting Ruger #1 loads in marlins. I have split the gap with no problem, but don't want to shoot anything hotter than most the Marlin loads. They will shoot lengthwise through anything. The other stuff doesn't do anything more, A hole all the way through anything will get it done. Besides I don't like pain that much.

[bearcove]

454 levergun will never shoot a 460 S&W they are cart length sensitive. Can't even seat heavies out a little to gain powder space.

Unless you want a single shot levergun.

[bearcove]

"The 450 Alaskan achieves about 200' more with a 500, that's significant and that is what we were talking about."

When you look at these 2 cartridges most feel that the 450 is less than the 500 cause with large bore stopping cartridges MV is not the most important variable. Look at the Taylor knockdown values for these.

Question is what are you trying to achieve? I live fish and hunt in Alaska off and on, The 50 ak is my hands down choice for a bear stopper. Still don't have one. Use my Rossi 454 most. 7lbs, 350 gr WFN in the 1700 fps ballpark. Have no worries about being under gunned. Are you after the maximum FT/LBS, that is an imaginary number the bullet companies put on boxes of ammo to say mine is better

[tygar]

Ok, I'm tired of this. Why are you continuing to badger me on this. None of this has anything to do with the post.

But, for your info, I am from Alaska, am still a resident, lived there for a good part of 4 decades, have shot bear, moose, caribou, elk, etc etc.

I currently have more big bores than I can even remember. Have had numerous 460s, 470s, many doubles, just about everything that starts with a four. Hell I've sold over 200 personal guns from 03-07 & still have well over 100.

I shoot pistol from 1 yd to rifle at a 1000. I have loaded for most standard, all weatherby & numerous wildcat rifle, & most every handgun from 22-500 & I will stack my knowledge & ability up against most people when talking metallic cartridges.

You are the one who is continually saying "mine is better"!

I keep saying fine for you. I don't keep saying your wrong & I'm right. For the last time, I just don't care.

As for the 460S&W, read what I said. The factory warrantee gunsmith (their factory shop was in Alexandria, va) at whoever made this back then told me that he/they had done it. Now what he did, I don't remember, whether it's feasible to redo the feed ramp etc on the current models, I don't know - that's why I said I was going to check.

OK, can we be done with this. This is only about the 348/450. I don't care about the other stuff.

This has been beat to death.

OK
Tom





I really don't care about all of this.

[bearcove]

I asked what you were trying to do.

You never stated a goal or standard to reach. "The 450 is 200 better than the 500"

If you want to discuss a topic maybe you should define what you want to debate.