Lube purging fliers, how to identify?

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I've been reading there the lube threads by gear an R5R, and there is many mentions of
lube purging causing fliers. How does one positively ID the flier is from lube purging and
not from some other issue? What are the tells?

[357maximum]

Lube purge fliers normally go high and wide by a few+ inches or so and they will have a pattern to them...like every 4th or 5th shot type pattern.

It is not something one normally sees unless his lube is either too wet/slimy/slippery or his wax base is too cohesive in nature. In reality it takes a pretty poorly thought out lube recipe to make it happen under normal shooting conditions. Only when pushing the envelope on weird/wet recipe additions or shooting at warp speed in extreme heat should one really ever see this happen with a "normal" recipe. It is in reality basically a non-occurrance when one follows a known proven recipe.


GENERALLY SPEAKING........If it happens when the temp goes up your lube has to much slickum(reduce the oil/grease content). If it happens when it gets cold your lube is too cohesive in nature (reduce the amount of beeswax/microwax and/or substitue in some paraffin to weaken the chains that bind kinda thing). Parafinics like parafin and mineral oil are weak in the cohesiveness department....a lube alchemist can use this to his advantage or it can kill his efforts depending on how well he understands the tweaks he is making.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Here's why I ask. I've been barfing around with this 7mm-08 for almost 2 years now,
using the Cu enriched alloy you know all about already. I've got it shooting ~2100fps under and inch @100 yards.
BUT- once in a while, 4-5 inches outta the group, then right back in there.
The next one outta line is dang near on top of the first wild one.
My lube has been Thompson's Blue Angel- pretty hard stuff. I've been using that,
because it came free in a goody box when I first got started in this obsession.
I am almost out of it, I have Carnuba Red in stock to take over the position.
I have not noticed the fliers in my 7.65x53 Argentine, but I'm not pushing that as hard,
only to 1750fps.
I've never noticed a "wet" appearance on the muzzle, just a faint dry looking star,
never see anything weird in the bore.

[357maximum]

Not real familiar with blue angel other than knowing it is a hard lube similar to magma .........I would try the C. Red and go from there. See what happens.....


..........if it still occurs you might try weight segregating 30 boolits that weigh exactly the same and shoot them into one group over the course of a few hours, then post that///////would make a diagnosis alot easier from afar.

Too dry a lube normally puts it's purge flyers waaaaaaaaaaay out of the group...like 6-8 inches out and they are normally off about every 9th or 10th shot as that shot pushes the "gunk" out of the barrel ahead of the boolit.


Would be alot easier to diagnose sitting beside ya at the bench.

[geargnasher]

Not much I can add to what 357Maximum said. Ponder his posts above thoroughly.

Gear

[btroj]

I don't know that I would call this purging, I think it is almost the opposite. Could a hard, waxy deposit be building up that is causing inconsistent bore conditions? Not quite to the extreme that we had with TnT but similar?

I bet adding a tiny, and I mean tiny, bit of 2 stroke would smooth things out. Maybe a 1/2 teaspoonful mixed with 4 melted sticks might be enough. Heck, even a small addition of Vaseline could help.

[geargnasher]

Vaseline or ATF. Very tiny amount. 3-5%. If that makes it worse, add 20% beeswax.

Gear

[btroj]

ATF would do it. It might be the best bet, it tends to make a lube somewhat self cleaning.

[longbow]

I had what I think was lube purging... in fact gear pointed it out when I posted.

I made up a lube that was working but not sticky enough so it tended to "flake" off boolits if they were handled much while loading. I added a small amount of Bardhal oil treatment which certainly stickiefied the lube but then I got some strange fliers and I would swear that I could see wisps of spider web like material floating in the air just after the shot (Bardhal is very viscous like STP). Maybe my imagination but...

Along with that came fairly regular fliers but not real far out of the group and generally just one flier per group so every 5+ shots or so.

I reduced the Bardhal oil treatment a bit and all seems well now. So, Gear's advice above is probably a simple way to figure it out by adjusting components a small amount.

I have also had accuracy deteriorate due to too much lube. I had regularly lubed boolits but figured maybe some extra lube applied as a dip lube for the long bore riding nose would be a good thing. Wrong! I wound up scraping it off with my thumbnail then accuracy returned.

Tricky stuff lube science!

Longbow

[btroj]

I have seen the high, low pattern enough times to know lube purging quite well. It tends to follow at least a rough pattern like Mike mentioned. Might not be every 7 the shot but it will occur at a regular enough interval that it becomes predictable.

A really wet lube star can be a sign of potential trouble.

[357maximum]

I don't know that I would call this purging, I think it is almost the opposite. Could a hard, waxy deposit be building up that is causing inconsistent bore conditions? Not quite to the extreme that we had with TnT but similar?

I bet adding a tiny, and I mean tiny, bit of 2 stroke would smooth things out. Maybe a 1/2 teaspoonful mixed with 4 melted sticks might be enough. Heck, even a small addition of Vaseline could help.


I hesitated to call it that myself....may not be lube PURGE per se, but it is related kinda sorta. Personally I feel that it differs mostly in composition/viscosity......find a happy middle ground and it normally goes away either way.
Lube is like alot of things....sometimes you just need some mediocracy to make things work correctly.

I have approached lube " tweaks" from both directions and I would normally recommend you start dry and go from there....dry is ALMOST ALWAYS easier/cheaper to fix than "wet".

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I
I have also had accuracy deteriorate due to too much lube.

Longbow
OK, this made me consider what I wrote earlier. I am only lubing two grooves on the 314299 boolit. I've been lubing 4 on this 7mm Loverin design.
Too much just might be it!
I'll give it a go with less lube and see what gives.
Thank you Gents!

[longbow]

Coincidentally, my "too much lube" issue was with a Lyman 314299 in my .303. I figured the two small lube grooves just might not hold enough lube... no real good reason why I would think that, I just did. I don't recall any leading, I just figured more lube might be better so I dip lubed the noses. It was thicker than tumble lube but not gobs.

In any case, it didn't work for me. Two grooves lubed is enough. In fact now I am hot tumble lubing them which gives about the same thickness coating as LLA tumble lube and they work fine. I also wipe off the noses after so even less lube.

Longbow

[btroj]

I hesitated to call it that myself....may not be lube PURGE per se, but it is related kinda sorta. Personally I feel that it differs mostly in composition/viscosity......find a happy middle ground and it normally goes away either way.
Lube is like alot of things....sometimes you just need some mediocracy to make things work correctly.

I have approached lube " tweaks" from both directions and I would normally recommend you start dry and go from there....dry is ALMOST ALWAYS easier/cheaper to fix than "wet".

Dry is far easier to fix than wet. Far, far easier.

[detox]

I once read that a good soft lube will sling off bullet evenly when fired...thus reducing flyers and lubing barrel full length (look for lube star at end of barrel). If hard small pieces of hard lube cling to bullet you will get a flyer...especially a long ranges.

Your flyer may be caused by leading also (lube too hard or not working for that setup).

[Larry Gibson]

The flyers very well could be caused by "lube purging" or actually chunks of it spinning off in an uneven manner which unbalances the bullets. I ran into that very problem in a past HV test of cast bullets. I was testing numerous lubes and the hard lubes gave flyers as described. The test was extensive enough that a considerable amount of lube built up on the face of the chronograph screens. I could definitely see a pattern; the softer lubes spun off evenly and the harder lubes (CR, LBT Blue, etc.) spun off in uneven chunks which imbalances the bullets. There is about 66,000 RPM difference between your 7-08 and 7.65 which is a lot more centrifugal force.

I switched back to softer lubes so they would spin off evenly at HV. NRA 50/50 lubes work as does 2500+ which are available from LsStuff.com also.

Shown is chronograph screens from that test. You can readily see the chunks of hard red and blue lube all over the face of all three screens. Obviously the hard lube was being thrown off the bullets very unevenly which, of course, affects the bullets balance in flight.

Larry Gibson

93758

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Larry,
Thanks for stopping by on this, as I was pondering the "throw off" theory as well last night.
I don't shoot the 314299 at near the velocity I'm pushing this 7mm at, so that very well could be part of it.
I've had no issue with Recluses 45-45-10 allowing leading at this velocity, so I'll try it on these as well.
It should not sling of due to rotation.

[felix]

I cannot add anything to what has already been spoken, but when a solution is found, it is best to consider that load including lube, in that gun, in that ambient as accomplished. Shooting in another condition might result in a very satisfactory surprise, or most likely will indicate a waste of good ammo. When the latter is first noticed, either put the gun away for the appropriate condition as originally intended, or just move the target closer to make the rest of the day enjoyable. When not being a lube "designer", always take two or more guns to the shooting area so one gun will have a chance to shoot hiding shotgun shells at a hunnert or better for a 90 percent hit which would encourage a happy smiley-face day. ... felix

[detox]

NRA 50/50 (alox/beeswax) is the standard rifle lube. Everyone makes it.

I have had verygood results using soft SPG blackpoder lube and linotype alloy in my 30/30 Winchester. This lube leaves a nice wet lube star on end of barrel with no leading @1200fps. Bullet is the plainbase RCBS 150gr Cowboy with two deep lube grooves.

[cbashooter]

i had the same problem with a Remington 788 308 Win when driven to 2200 with linotype.its wasnt lube related that i ever could tell.Try a slower powder or backing the load down a bit.It solved it for me.Tom Grey started this lube purging theory a number of years ago.i shot with him in the 1997 CBA nationals and he sort of admitted it might not be the case for all flyers he used to blame it for.if there is a rock solid rule for lube amounts and type at what velocity it has never been proven in a real test.

Many times its the barrel picking up a small bit of lead in a particular spot and one shot just grabs it and carries it away and causes the flyer.My 35 Whelen had a big pit up front and had that “wild one”problem. I cut 2” off the barrel and problem gone.

[btroj]

Lube sticking to the bullet can be an issue, hadn't thought of that. I would expect it to give large groups, not an occasional flyer.

Looks at recovered bullets, are the grooves empty? I have found CR on bullets in the 100 yard berm and often found loob boogers on targets at 100 too. Never a good sign.

Adding a small amount of something to soften the lube, like Vaseline or ATF, would reduce this issue as the softer lube is far more likely to spin off the bullet at the muzzle.

[44man]

I recover a lot of boolits to study for skid, lube, etc. Too many had lube left on one side of GG's.
Purge should leave a clean boolit at the muzzle. My best shots will have no lube at all in GG's.
Weather can affect lube purge so some might be too hard in cold and stick. There is no lube that can shoot in hot and cold conditions although a few get close.
A softer lube that does not melt in heat or get real hard in cold is the elusive goal.
My opinion is you WANT a clean purge at the muzzle. Never Whilly-Nilly chunks coming off.
I have been sent boolits to test and found lube chunks in the bottom of the box with much missing from GG's. Can't be shot that way. It is as bad as casting air holes in boolits.
I still remember the Wonder Lube for ML's that needed run over by a truck tire to get out of the tube. Then the store bought where the lube dried out to powder. I discovered Young Country lube like I did Felix lube. You need a crossover as temperatures change. Even one day can open groups. I sure do not need 365 different lubes!

[geargnasher]

I've studied lube jettison for a few years now, at least that's what I call it. I do many point-blank shooting tests to record spatter patterns and droplet size. If your lube isn't turning to mist at the muzzle and all spinning off within a few inches, it's too hard or isn't going liquid under pressure.

This is why I prefer soft lubes, or lubes that absorb heat readily, or lubes that liquify under pressure. If you have chunks of lube flinging off way downrange, the boolit balance will be affected and it can make your groups open up. I've seen and fixed this many times.

I also feel that a good lube ought to be soft enough that it doesn't matter how many groove are lubed, as long as the same number are lubed, accuracy shouldn't be affected. Also, the lube can be soft, but not too slippery. Too much slippery lube, or too slippery, period, never seems good for group size. Paraffin oils like heavy mineral oil, Dexron III, some GL-1 gear oils, and Vaseline are good ways to add softness without slipperiness.

Gear

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Most of the 314299 boolits that I have recovered are in the snow bank behind the gongs
from our winter shoots. The lube is all there and intact on those, and that Argentine
shoots 1/2MOA all day long summer and winter. That's with the Thompsons Blue Angel lube.
I'm about to refill my rebuilt lubrisizer with Carnuba Red, I wonder if I have a new issue about to show up? :)

[runfiverun]

only in the cold.


this reminds me of the discussion where we were doing the lube purging on the paper [paratack testing] and I counted the lands and grooves in the pictures.
the big chunks were a dead give away.
airc it was some atf that evened things out and turned the random chunks into spin art.

[btroj]

I remember that discussion well. You knew exactly how many grease grooves the bullet had and the number of grooves in the barrel. The rest of us never noticed til you pointed it out.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

runfiverun
in all seriousness, I sincerely hope you are making notes, and keeping a journal
to turn into a book someday.

[HARRYMPOPE]

[QUOTE= that Argentine
shoots 1/2MOA all day long summer and winter. That's with the Thompsons Blue Angel lube.
I'm about to refill my rebuilt lubrisizer with Carnuba Red, I wonder if I have a new issue about to show up? :)[/QUOTE]

I doubt it.

[Larry Gibson]

Very subtle sarcasm Harry............

Larry Gibson

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Very subtle sarcasm Harry............

Larry Gibson

*snicker*

[geargnasher]

One of the lubes that was throwing chunks out of my .45 Colt was TnT with straight K2 (about 15% polybutene). I cut it with AC ester oil (same base oil viscosity) to reduce the polybutene content and voila, the chunks went away.

Gear

[btroj]

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/68628C95-0013-47C6-8E9F-BA1315402488_zpsh0j2xj8i.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/68628C95-0013-47C6-8E9F-BA1315402488_zpsh0j2xj8i.jpg.html)

This is a hole in a 100 yard target. That hunk of lube near the bullet hole is a bad sign. The lube isn't flinging off the bullet very well. Can't be good for accuracy.

[cbrick]

Hhmmm . . . I need new glasses.

Rick

[btroj]

Do YOU have any idea how hard it is to shoot an out of focus bullet at an out of focus target? All that just to focus on the lube?

[runfiverun]

timing the trigger pull and the cameras click has to be quite the trick.

[btroj]

That it is.

[357maximum]

timing the trigger pull and the cameras click has to be quite the trick.


Sounds like a dangerous but effective way to put a boolit through a great big ol hat to me. :mrgreen: Can one even duck rapidly in one of them things?

[btroj]

Mike, mine is Kevlar. I even had it treated so it repels bullets and flung mud!

[geargnasher]

Mine's velvet-covered cardboard. Don't need the Kevlar 'cause my skull is so thick.

The first time I had a booger like that on a 100-yard target (together with larger-than-normal group) it got me to wondering and monkeying with lube.

Gear

[runfiverun]

I just scotch-guarded mine, the holes add a flair and keeps thing cool in the summer.

[btroj]

Hats, so similar, yet so different.........

[Grump]

Well, the TAC#1 I'm using is giving me groups barely smaller than 3 inches at 50 in .38 Special, and barely over 3 inches at 50 in the .45.

No flinging at all. That stuff sticks in the grooves 100% at standard speeds. Also in some +P .38 Specials chrono'd at about 1175 fps. Haven't accuracy tested those yet....

[badgeredd]

Jim,

If you're going to use a white label lube, I'd suggest you try mixing one stick Carnuba Red to two sticks BAC. I've found that the mixture seems to have fewer temperature sensitivity issues than either lube has as packaged. The mixture seems to be reasonable good in temperatures of 20 degrees right up to our humid 95 degree range. YMMV.

Edd

[geargnasher]

Jim,

If you're going to use a white label lube, I'd suggest you try mixing one stick Carnuba Red to two sticks BAC. I've found that the mixture seems to have fewer temperature sensitivity issues than either lube has as packaged. The mixture seems to be reasonable good in temperatures of 20 degrees right up to our humid 95 degree range. YMMV.

Edd

I'll second that mixing those two can make a fantastic lube. 1:1 makes the only lube my .40 will shoot without gumming up the front of the chamber and one of the few that the same gun likes at full-house loadings.

Gear

[44man]

Makes sense. CR is great in the summer as is.
The problem I have is it can be 40* one day, 70* the next and a few days later it will be below zero.
Rain woke me last night but I got up to wet snow falling. Might get 6" of wet stuff.
Sure makes for a lube challenge!