School me on handguns for whitetail/black bear!

[Jevyod]

I am preparing to buy my 1st wheelgun, and am looking at a 44 mag. The application would be mainly for whitetail hunting, and maybe some black bear. It looks like a lot of guys go with a Ruger, and I am leaning that way. Is there any great advantage of double action over single for hunting? Is there another kind/caliber I should be looking at? I tend to shy away from the 357 mag. I realize that in the hands of a skilled shooter, the 357 is more than adequate for whitetail. I am new to hunting with handguns.Money is an issue, and I cant justify spending 800 + on a handgun with my current finances. Am also thinking barrel length in the 6-8 inch range. I had one guy tell me that a lot of guys prefer 45 colt because in a ruger you can load them heavy, almost to 454 levels. Fact or fiction? So fire away! By the way I live in a Pa which says that if you use a handgun for deer, it may not be semi-auto.

[Doc_Stihl]

The 44 mag and 45 colt are near to equal in terms of power out of a Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk. Bullet selection is very good in both.
If I were looking for a new revolver for big game hunting I'd go looking for a 44 and grab a Lee 310gr WFN mold.

Barrel length is a personal preference thing in my mind. I like a 6 - 7" in a large frame revolver. The 4-5" can be just as accurate.
Make sure you get a set of grips that fit and feel right. I run Hogue MonoGrips on most of my wheelguns.

[Dale53]

I live in Ohio and Ohio requires a minimum barrel length of 5". My choice has been the .44 magnum. I have both Smith and Ruger revolvers.

I just happen to use double action revolvers for deer but wouldn't hesitate to use my single actions of an appropriate caliber, either.

A Ruger LARGE FRAME single action on .45 Colt would be equally as good a choice as the .44 Magnum. Be sure you get adjustable sights if you don't plan to scope the revolver. Different folks see iron sights differently and to zero a handgun you NEED adjustable sights. Anyone tell you any different, run, do not walk, away from that feller or gal :???:

A good cast bullet of appropriate design (Keith, WFN, or LFN) of .40 caliber or above and 250-330 grs will get the job done if the shooter does his/her job. A proper hit is extremely important with a handgun (as well as a rifle).

Learn to cast your own bullets and practice a LOT before you hunt.

Good luck to you and tell us what you chose (pictures are nice)...

FWIW
Dale53

[jhalcott]

I have the 44 mag in the super black hawk and have used it on deer and black bear. I think the Red hawk double action's extra weight MIGHT be an aid in recoil reduction if that is an issue with you. Since I cast my own bullets I like the .44 mag with its many different molds available. Neither the .44mag or .45 Colt are some thing to sneer at when hunting is concerned. oth can be extremely accurate and effective .

[Beerd]

Sounds like the OP is looking for a .44 Mag Super Blackhawk, 7-1/2" barrel
..

[Jevyod]

Sounds like the OP is looking for a .44 Mag Super Blackhawk, 7-1/2" barrel
..

That is what I am seriously considering. I just want to make sure it is a good decision. Is there any benefit to the Bisley Vs the standard Blackhawk?

[Steel185]

Your choices are very wide. Every caliber including 357 and above will do the job. They even make 45-70 revolvers. I have a ruger 480 and love it for hogs and deer. I've used a 44mag for a few deer and it's a good choice. I've shot 45LC but not hunting a deer, but it can do a good job. My point is it's up to what you like. If you reload and cast you have more options, if you want to stick to factory ammo you will be a bit more limited. I'd look around at for a used gun and see what you find. There might be a good 480 with reloading dies ready for you or there might be a nice priced 44mag. You should like you are in the "ballpark" on your decision, the rest will depend on what you find. Oh and I'd try to shoot whatever you consider before you buy if you can. Good luck.

[Beerd]

I can't comment on the Bisley, I'd like to try one sometime.

You say you are in Pennsylvania. Maybe another board member with one or both models lives close enough so you can meet up for some range time before you buy.
..

[Steel185]

There is a nice ported ruger480 super redhawk in the for sale section, already ported and everything.

[ACrowe25]

My super redhawk has no problems with whitetail.

[kweidner]

I started handgun hunting with .44 mag. Now I pretty much use a .41 mag. IMHO they are atouch more inherently accurate. Here is a group from my .41 Dan Wesson with my 6" bbl.
93624

I just like them. I do prefer a 6" or under. I have the 8 for my DW and my big smith wears a custom 8". I just find myself taking the 6" more. Any mentioned above will work great. Chances are you won't be going double action on a deer anyway. I have 3 double actions I regularly hunt with and have never shot an animal without cocking the hammer. Just something to think about. Depends on your budget really. My next will be a freedom arms.

[M-Tecs]

The Ruger Bisley grips fit my hand better than the standard Blackhawk grips. It's a matter of what feels best to you. I personally prefer the 45 Colt over the 44 Mag but they will both get the job done. Most people find they can handle the recoil from a single action better than the double actions due to the grip design. Personally I am able to shoot double actions better off hand. That being said I have shot more deer with single actions than I have with double actions. In this area used Ruger single actions are readily available and reasonably priced. With the 44 you will have more choices for off the shelf factory ammo.

[seaboltm]

7 1/2" Super Redhawk in 44 magnum with the Lee 310 grain bullet is my choice. I also own a BH and contender in 44 mag. I prefer the SRH. Recoil is pleasant, even with the Lee 310 over a hefty charge of H110. The BH is much less comfortable to shoot due to recoil. The contender is not a wheel gun of course. If I were going to hunt deer, the contender would get the nod over the wheel guns.

[seaboltm]

I am preparing to buy my 1st wheelgun, and am looking at a 44 mag. The application would be mainly for whitetail hunting, and maybe some black bear. It looks like a lot of guys go with a Ruger, and I am leaning that way. Is there any great advantage of double action over single for hunting? Is there another kind/caliber I should be looking at? I tend to shy away from the 357 mag. I realize that in the hands of a skilled shooter, the 357 is more than adequate for whitetail. I am new to hunting with handguns.Money is an issue, and I cant justify spending 800 + on a handgun with my current finances. Am also thinking barrel length in the 6-8 inch range. I had one guy tell me that a lot of guys prefer 45 colt because in a ruger you can load them heavy, almost to 454 levels. Fact or fiction? So fire away! By the way I live in a Pa which says that if you use a handgun for deer, it may not be semi-auto.

load to 454 levels is fiction, if you want to do it safely. MAYBE in a SRH, but not the BH. The 45 Colt will give the 44 magnum more than a run for its money in a Ruger.

[06ackley]

I personally like my Redhawk. I also have the super Blackhawk and like it as well but prefer the redhawk.If you look around you can usually find a good deal on a used one.

[Steel185]

I forgot, my 480 is in SRH and the 44mag I used was SBH. Both nice guns , I'd go with either. And if I had the funds I'd go with both, but I can only afford one type, and have a 480 already. You can find both in lever carbine, which is a fun match to have.

[dubber123]

That is what I am seriously considering. I just want to make sure it is a good decision. Is there any benefit to the Bisley Vs the standard Blackhawk?


Some people have issues with the square backed trigger guard common on the 7-1/2" Super Blackhawks smacking their middle knuckle. The Bisley has a rounded guard. I like the Bisley frame better myself. A 7-1/2" Ruger .44 is very easy to shoot well, and would be hard to beat in a hunting handgun.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

if just for hunting i would look at a Encore in 44 or 454
i have a B/H i just cant shoot it good enough to hut with
past 30 yards my scoped Encore in 454 i can hit a chipmunk
at 100 yards [smilie=1:

[Blammer]

I would recommend this:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/ruger/DSCN6452.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/ruger/DSCN6452.jpg.html)

Ruger Super Redhawk in 44mag with 7.5" brl and a scope.

double action is nice if POSSIBLY needing a fast panicked second shot, but other than that single action will serve you well.

44mag will handle either deer or black bear adequately, with a variety of projectiles. (such as these)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/44list-1.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits/44list-1.jpg.html)

develop a load and you can get some fine accuracy out of them.

this is the BEST group I've ever gotten, 5 shots in one spot then I moved for the last one.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/5-44shots226grNEI.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/5-44shots226grNEI.jpg.html)

Here's a typical 100yd target
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/44SRH_250grPB_100yds.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/44SRH_250grPB_100yds.jpg.html)

[c1skout]

I've got a Blackhawk convertible in 45 with the 4 5/8" barrel. I didn't get it in time for deer season this year, but it'll be my goto revolver next season. I used to have a super Blackhawk in 44mag but I never "gelled" with that gun, so traded it off for something else. The last few years I carried my 4" GP100 but never got a chance to try it out on game. PM me if you're close and would like to try one of mine, I'm in the Johnstown area.

[kweidner]

Blammer that is some fine shooting! I've been wanting to scope my 8" shroud just to see what new custom bbl is actually capable of in my Dan. Those scope mounts are like hen's teeth and I prefer not to drill it. The group of mine was done with the 6" open sights at 25 yds. I believe i'd mess my britches if I shot a group like that in a handgun. Nice!

[cbrick]

I had one guy tell me that a lot of guys prefer 45 colt because in a ruger you can load them heavy, almost to 454 levels.

Pure fiction!

If you want a 454 get a 454. Don't try hot rodding the 45 Colt to make it something it's not. Would you load a 44 Special to 44 Mag levels or a 38 Special to 357 Mag levels just because . . . I had one guy tell me?

Lot's of people out there that do a lot of things that aren't either safe or wise. Use common sense and use load data books. There is a really good reason why in none of the load books you will find data that turns the 45 Colt into a 454. Think about that instead of listening to "one guy".

Rick

[35 Whelen]

About a year ago I bought a 5 1/2" NM Blackhawk in .44 Special and loaded it to very near factory .44 Mag levels (260 gr. SWC @ 1218fps) with the intention of hunting deer with it. I wound up using a little 4 3/4" Uberti in .44 Special. Loaded the same 260 gr. SWC to 950 fps and killed two deer, then a 252 gr. SWCHP to near 1000 fps for a third deer. What I found is it doesn't take near as much power as folks would lead you to believe to kill a deer.

35W

[cbrick]

Lot's of people out there that do a lot of things that aren't either safe or wise. Rick


About a year ago I bought a 5 1/2" NM Blackhawk in .44 Special and loaded it to very near factory .44 Mag levels (260 gr. SWC @ 1218fps) 35W

Didn't take very long to prove my point did it? 49 minutes from my post to this one! Just think, the guy at the range shooting next to you could be one of these guys. :roll:

Rick

[35 Whelen]

Didn't take very long to prove my point did it? 49 minutes from my post to this one! Just think, the guy at the range shooting next to you could be one of these guys. :roll:

Rick

You must be a 44 Mag owner. I've noticed y'all get your shorts knotted up when someone does with a .44 Special or a .45 Colt what you think can only be done with a .44 Magnum. And for what it's worth, I own my own range, and the load mentioned is published data (http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?metallicid=5198&caliber=.44&caliberid=25&header=.44 Caliber Reloading Data) (Fifth from the bottom). :roll:

35W

[nekshot]

years ago when I was stumbling around the Pa hills I used ruger black hawks in 44 mag and 7 1/2 inch barrel. The extra weight of that gun allowed me to take 80 yard shots with ease and confidence. Now I have 357's and I simply cannot hold them as steady as my old 44 rugers of years gone by.

[dubber123]

You must be a 44 Mag owner. I've noticed y'all get your shorts knotted up when someone does with a .44 Special or a .45 Colt what you think can only be done with a .44 Magnum. And for what it's worth, I own my own range, and the load mentioned is published data (http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?metallicid=5198&caliber=.44&caliberid=25&header=.44 Caliber Reloading Data) (Fifth from the bottom). :roll:

35W

Hmmm.. only 25,000 Psi load too. I'll have to write that one down to try in my 6-1/2" .44 Spl.

[cbrick]

You must be a 44 Mag owner. I've noticed y'all get your shorts knotted up when someone does with a .44 Special or a .45 Colt what you think can only be done with a .44 Magnum. And for what it's worth, I own my own range, and the load mentioned is published data (http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?metallicid=5198&caliber=.44&caliberid=25&header=.44 Caliber Reloading Data) (Fifth from the bottom). :roll: 35W

I have both the Spl & the Mag, what possible difference could that make? SAAMI Max pressure for the 44 Spl is 14,000 C.U.P. Fantasizing that it's either not or simply doesn't matter I would say it's quite a good thing you have your own range so carry on, it's your gun, hands, eyes.

Rick

[white eagle]

What I found is it doesn't take near as much power as folks would lead you to believe to kill a deer.

think he was agreeing with you

[Steel185]

Doesn't take much power at all really, any bow hunter can prove it to you. Placement and penatration. I shot a buck with my bow in November, 350gr arrow going at 275fps, around 58ftlbs of energy. I picked up my arrow on the other side of the deer before I "tracked" the 30yds of a blood trail to the down 8point Iowa buck. I'd say put a nice big hole in the right spot as long as you get enough penetration for both lungs you are fine.

[44man]

For a new .44 I would get the SRH as it is by far deadly accurate or the SBH Hunter, 7-1/2", also accurate.
I can't shoot a Bisley because of my hands, hate the things. They beat my knuckle worse then a square back trigger guard but Pachmeyer grips will cure the square back.
I would put an Ultra Dot on either, straight 4 min dot, no fancy adjustable dot stuff. The best system from first light to the last minutes.
Use a heavy boolit like the Lee 310, anything hit will really know it.
The next best if you can control it is the BFR in .475 Linebaugh with a 420 gr boolit. I shot 5 deer with mine last season and 4 hit the ground right now and the last made 20 yards. Little meat loss.
I lost count of the deer that have dropped in their tracks with the .475 since I bought it.
I don't like the RH with the funny spring system, one for both the hammer and trigger. Grip design also makes it hard to get accuracy.

[44man]

Doesn't take much power at all really, any bow hunter can prove it to you. Placement and penatration. I shot a buck with my bow in November, 350gr arrow going at 275fps, around 58ftlbs of energy. I picked up my arrow on the other side of the deer before I "tracked" the 30yds of a blood trail to the down 8point Iowa buck. I'd say put a nice big hole in the right spot as long as you get enough penetration for both lungs you are fine.
I got you beat! I have over 255 bow kills, from recurves to compounds but I shot a deer last season with a 47# long bow and wood arrow, she went 10 yards. My first deer ever instinctive, can't pull most of my other bows anymore! I kind of sat there in wonder that I hit the deer!
I used a big old Snuffer.

[Steel185]

That is A LOT of bow kills. That's more than 6 a year for 40 years. Impressive.

[taco650]

I recently picked up a lightly used 1980's era SBH in stock form (7.5" barrel). It's lighter than my Dan Wesson 44mag with the lighter shroud and 6" barrel. The square back trigger guard didn't work for my hands so got a Hogue mon0-grip for it and my knuckles are happy now. The stock grip on my DW fits me perfectly. Both shoot well. I've fired lots of moderate 44 mag loads out of the DW over the years just because I liked them better.

For hunting deer, I'd recommend anything from the 41 mag to 45 Colt. 357 mag (in a revolver) will work and has been done many times but requires more skill to use it. And like 35W said, you don't need 1200 fps to kill a deer. 900-1000 with a 240-260 grain boolit works just fine.

[35 Whelen]

That is A LOT of bow kills. That's more than 6 a year for 40 years. Impressive.

That's what I was thinking, plus all the handgun kills. Wonder what he does with all that meat?

[35 Whelen]

I have both the Spl & the Mag, what possible difference could that make? SAAMI Max pressure for the 44 Spl is 14,000 C.U.P. Fantasizing that it's either not or simply doesn't matter I would say it's quite a good thing you have your own range so carry on, it's your gun, hands, eyes.

Rick

I wish I knew the answer to that question! Maybe it's because some .44 Magnum owners feel threatened by "lesser" cartridges? Who knows? I have a couple of buddies who load for and use .44 Magnums and they aren't bothered in the least by my .44 Special whether I'm using light or heavy loads. In fact, they seem to find it rather interesting.

By the way, I think it's more like 15,500 PSI, not CUP, but I could be wrong.

Don't get mad at me! I didn't publish that .44 Special data myself! It's straight out of Handloader #260 so if you have issue with it, I'd suggest you fire off a letter to the editor, Dave Scovill or the author Brian Pearce. And while you're at it, you'll want to drop John Taffin a line because he's developed and published similar and in some cases identical data for the .44 Special

35W

[John Allen]

If you want a single action. The Ruger Super Blackhawk hunters are really nice. I have one with a 2 power leupold on it and it is great. It comes setup for a scope. Plus it has the rounded trigger guard.

Here is a pic I stole offline.
93683

[Jevyod]

Some good advice here! Thanks! I also keep thinking of that 480 over on S&S. I was wondering how a Magnaported 480 would compare to say a 44 mag with a 6 or 7 inch barrel.

[Bulldogger]

Handgun for Black Bear? Do they make a BFR in 700 Nitro?

Sorry, nothing constructive to add, just sharing my initial reaction. I sold my .41 mag, and don't have anything capable of handgunning for bear anymore. I almost needed one, but the hunting lease fell through.

Carry on,

Bulldogger

[35 Whelen]

I doubt I'll ever shoot at a bear, but does hunting black bears require about the same power level at deer? The only one I've ever seen first-hand was a 250 lb. sow shot by my dad with a 6.5x55.

35W

[deepwater]

There is a major divide of people that find the single action grip frame more comfortable to shot than the double action grip frame and vice versa. With heavy loads I prefer the double action frame (shooting single action). This is a personal thing and I suggest you try both before purchasing.
With that said, my recommendation would be to jump on a used Ruger SRH! I find full power .454 to have more of a "sting" in my hand than the .44 mag or .480. Of course the .454 can be tailored to your comfort level.

[Steel185]

Some good advice here! Thanks! I also keep thinking of that 480 over on S&S. I was wondering how a Magnaported 480 would compare to say a 44 mag with a 6 or 7 inch barrel.

I'm afraid I can't tell the much on that. I've shot my 7.5 inch SRH 480 in one hand and my uncles SBH in 44mag in the other just to see the difference. The 44mag was "sharper" but less kick, the 480 was a dull push but a tad more recoil. Sorry it's hard to describe, but neather had a magport job. Maybe ask the guy selling the 480 in the classified section if he can compare it to a regular 44mag. But he'll probibly say much less muzzle flip, which is what magnaport is designed to do for you.

I have shot a 7.5 SRH without and a 9 SRH with magaport and there was less flip with the 9 but such a big difference in barrel length I didn't think it was apples to apples.

[deepwater]

Magnaporting will take some of the "sharpness" or "sting" out, but in these large firearms it will be a subtle change. The 9" magnaported .480 SRH with scope and rings, Hogue grips and your custom handloads can be made to be as comfortable as any magnum revolver available. (without adding a real muzzle break, which is the biggest difference maker, and not a suggestion)

[taco650]

The thing that is going to be the most important is to be able to make the shot you're given. More recoil can make this harder and a hot load takes more practice to master than a lesser one. 35W took two deer this season with a Uberti 4.75" 44spl Colt clone (old school iron sights) loaded to ~900 fps. The last one was taken at 45 yds through brush. Read about it in the hunting section of this site. Getting a big powerful caliber isn't needed for deer.

[jonp]

Sounds like the OP is looking for a .44 Mag Super Blackhawk, 7-1/2" barrel
..

I had Super Blackhawk Hunter Stainless with the grey laminate grips topped with a Nikon Monarch 2X scope. Very Accurate but kinda heavy and bulky to carry around with me in the woods but from a stand that would not be a problem.
I never minded a single action over a double action when hunting other than the sound of cocking the pistol over squeezing the trigger. You may find that it is more accurate to cock the trigger then shoot single action. I did this when hunting with my GP100.
45lc vs 44Mag...users preference for whitetail/bear. Either will be fine in the distance you should be shooting a pistol I would think.

[jonp]

load to 454 levels is fiction, if you want to do it safely. MAYBE in a SRH, but not the BH. The 45 Colt will give the 44 magnum more than a run for its money in a Ruger.
I always find this interesting when someone says this http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

[robertbank]

Pure fiction!
. There is a really good reason why in none of the load books you will find data that turns the 45 Colt into a 454. Think about that instead of listening to "one guy".

Rick

Best advice posted in this forum for some time. Thanks I hope our new members read it....then think.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

That's what I was thinking, plus all the handgun kills. Wonder what he does with all that meat?
I give it away. I keep two and they will be the smallest deer for good meat. It is why I have access to so much land to hunt. Land owners want meat.
Long ago with orchard kills, deer could be given to help the poor but now they want you to pay to process.
Many times a hunter would come to see my deer and I would ask if he wanted it. Meat is never wasted. Had a neighbor shoot a deer I was tracking after I shot it twice. He would not take it.
Never try to steal a deer, just ask and I will give it to you and I will ask if you want it first.
Some of you hardly ever see a deer and do not understand but even after the season ends here, it is nothing to see 50 deer in a field. My yard is full of tracks.They eat at my bird feeder. We just have to shoot the doe off.
Trophy hunters or "cull deer" is junk. Most huge bucks shot have the meat wasted. A dry doe???? Anybody prove that they can tell before they shoot? What experts we have in the field. Only a yearling will have no milk. Even after the fawns are long weaned, the doe will have milk and only the stupid will say she is dry because they do not see little deer with her. I have well over 550 deer kills and have never found a doe over two years old without milk even when fawns are grown to take care of themselves. a fawn with spots will survive with the loss of the mother as long as there is food.

[35 Whelen]

Interesting. Eleven deer per year, every year, for 50 years. That's pretty amazing! I don't quite understand your rambling about trophy hunters, cull deer, or dry does, but oh well.

35W

[Firebricker]

I have a friend with the Ruger hunter 7.5 .44mag Bisley I spent some time with it loading some cast loads for deer. I like the Bisley grip for my size hands I can get my bottom three fingers all on the grip I found comfortable. When you go looking best you can do is try to a few different guns side by side and see what you like everybody's a little different. There are a lot of good handguns and calibers out there now make it a hard choice let us know what you decide. FB

[osteodoc08]

The 44 mag is an excellent cartridge for what you want. Just need to decide on platform. If you want to push the envelope all the time, get a Ruger in whatever Blackhawk or Redhawk flavor you choose. If a smith man, can't beat a 629. They have made some improvements over the years around the -3 series IIRC. Happy and safe hunting.

[JHeath]

I wish I knew the answer to that question! Maybe it's because some .44 Magnum owners feel threatened by "lesser" cartridges? Who knows? I have a couple of buddies who load for and use .44 Magnums and they aren't bothered in the least by my .44 Special whether I'm using light or heavy loads. In fact, they seem to find it rather interesting.

By the way, I think it's more like 15,500 PSI, not CUP, but I could be wrong.

Don't get mad at me! I didn't publish that .44 Special data myself! It's straight out of Handloader #260 so if you have issue with it, I'd suggest you fire off a letter to the editor, Dave Scovill or the author Brian Pearce. And while you're at it, you'll want to drop John Taffin a line because he's developed and published similar and in some cases identical data for the .44 Special

35W

And send a cease-and-desist letter to the the Elmer Keith estate. IIRC, the .44 mag originated as high pressure .44 Special loads in Elmer Keith's N frame revolver. The older .44 Special revolvers would be a risk at those pressues, so Remington standardized EK's hot .44 Special loads using a longer case that would not chamber in old revolvers, and called it a magnum.

It is probably well that most reloaders are conditioned to "color within the lines." But some people who admire Keith, Ackley, Linebaugh etc as authorities cannot countenance an unfamiliar name doing their own thinking along the same lines. Only The Immortals have permission to do this, and their names are given to us from Authority.

The Linebaugh article is interesting because he explains working back from failure loads and design factors. I built acrobatic rigging; we do not work with "allowable" loads, nor ask permission to color outside the lines. We research the strength of materials and hardware, and design backwards to our own allowable loads. Otherwise we'd never be able to do anything.

Ditto reloading. You can follow the "max listed" load from the loading manual, most people probably should. But if you have a little more background like EK or others, and are sure of your numbers, you can reason things out for yourself.


While each person here is entitled to their opinion, I feel obligated to point out that the board's management in no way shares this viewpoint.

[cbrick]

Well JHeath, I sure hope new reloaders reason things out for themselves instead of listening to you.

Load up to failure and then work backwards indeed.

That has to be the single worst advice I have ever seen posted on this forum. You should consider who is reading these posts and their experience level before you post such incredible nonsense as load to failure.

You should also consider that you have no idea of the experience of those that you attempt to berate and belittle. Notice I said "attempt" because you failed at that just as with offering loading advice.

Rick

[tomcat388th]

Jevyrod
I have the same gun that Blammer has pictured 44mag SRH topped with a weaver 4x scope. Very accurate pistol I running 240 G XTP's through it right now but have been playing with some lee 310's that I milled the gas ck's out of the mold.

[taco650]

I've got agree with cbrick's above post. JHeath, EK used custom rebuilt Colt SA's for his 44special loads and I disagree with your advice on working backward from max, ESPECIALLY FOR NEW RELOADERS. I realize that the company's that produce reloading manuals have to have their lawyers sign off before printing but that doesn't give one carte blanch to ignore or discredit their data.

[btroj]

Wow, load for destruction then back off. Hot road everything, load it to the gills. Long as nothing breaks it must be safe.

I suppose some people just like to live on the edge. That works fine until reality bites you, and hard.

Great, in your job you research the materials and design your own rigging. If you were a ballistics expert and materials engineer working in the firearms industry that might make sense. Sadly, you aren't. That makes you a non-expert and therefor just a dangerous reloader.

Don't ever forget that Keith went to the 44 special after he blew up a 45 Colt with heavy loads.

[cbrick]

Don't ever forget that Keith went to the 44 special after he blew up a 45 Colt with heavy loads.

He also destroyed several 44 special revolvers leading him to work on the firearms and ammo mfg. for years to get them to produce guns and brass for the 44 mag.

He also NEVER started at top end failure and worked backwards.

Rick

[35 Whelen]

And send a cease-and-desist letter to the the Elmer Keith estate. IIRC, the .44 mag originated as high pressure .44 Special loads in Elmer Keith's N frame revolver. The older .44 Special revolvers would be a risk at those pressues, so Remington standardized EK's hot .44 Special loads using a longer case that would not chamber in old revolvers, and called it a magnum.

It is probably well that most reloaders are conditioned to "color within the lines." But some people who admire Keith, Ackley, Linebaugh etc as authorities cannot countenance an unfamiliar name doing their own thinking along the same lines. Only The Immortals have permission to do this, and their names are given to us from Authority.

The Linebaugh article is interesting because he explains working back from failure loads and design factors. I built acrobatic rigging; we do not work with "allowable" loads, nor ask permission to color outside the lines. We research the strength of materials and hardware, and design backwards to our own allowable loads. Otherwise we'd never be able to do anything.

Ditto reloading. You can follow the "max listed" load from the loading manual, most people probably should. But if you have a little more background like EK or others, and are sure of your numbers, you can reason things out for yourself.

+1 on this.

Reloading is not for careless types, those who cannot use deductive reasoning or worrywarts. But then again neither is anything that is potentially dangerous. The "don't say that, there may be a new handloader here" argument doesn't hold water either. It makes about as much sense as banning movies with guns because someone might watch them then go out and shoot someone. Or banning movies such as Fast and Furious because someone new to driving might decide driving fast through city streets would be fun.

I find it odd that folks think nothing of running a 44 Magnum up to the ragged edge of maximum or in many cases above maximum (and posting their loads here)or even starting load development with near max loads:


I would start with 19.0 gr of 2400 and group at 50 yd.<snip>

(You're recommending a STARTING load that is 1.0 gr. below Aliant's recommended MAX load. Remember, there may be new handloaders here...)


....but to do so with a .44 Special or 45 Colt brings the hand-wringers out in droves.

When I pick up a handloading manual and turn to the 45-70 data, I generally find two or three levels of loads depending on the firearm in which the cartridges are to be fired. Nobody thinks a thing about it, rather they select the class of load that fits their particular firearm. Mine happens to be an 1895 Marlin, so I and countless others KNOW not to use data for a Ruger #1 in our Marlins or Marlin data in our trapdoors. No drama. No muss. No fuss. No self-righteous finger pointing because I load my Marlin to pressures higher than those of factory loads. And so it should be with the .44 Special and 45 Colt and any other century old cartridges that are now chambered in modern firearms.

cbrick got all upset when I mentioned running a 260 gr. SWC a little over 1200 fps in my Blackhawk .44 Special. Yet the load I used has been in print for many decades now and can be found in several issues of Handloader magazine, on the www.loaddata.com website and in John Taffin's books. As I said before, if you think 17.0 grs. of 2400 in a .44 Special is too hot, chastising those who quote the loads on internet forums is not the place to start. You need to contact those who developed and published the loads.

35W

[robertbank]

We will keep the discussions civil here or boys will be spanked. Personal shots will get you days off. Clear.

We are talking about bear and deer loads for hunting. Neither beast requires a howitzer to be taken cleanly.

For those of us who are timid you might favour us with a reference to the source of heavy loads. If you think there is no danger in throwing info out without any thought of the new reloader and the potential for injury then you have very odd life experiences or are just to arrogant to care.

Incidentally about the only thing I find when I go from mild to wild with my loadings is my wrist gets sore faster with the heavy loads. Rarely do I find significant benefit of loading to the max.

Take Care

Bob

[35 Whelen]

For those of us who are timid you might favour us with a reference to the source of heavy loads. Take Care

Bob

If you're referring to the load I've quoted for the .44 Special, sorry. Here's the references with others thrown in:

Handloader #63
Handloader #163
Handloader #166
Handloader #183 (http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-oct%201996%20handloader%20.pdf)
Handloader #236 (http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf)
Handloader #260
Ross Seyfried on the .44 Special (http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-lipseys-ruger-flattop-44-special-bisley-revolvers/)
Article by John Knutson (http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=4)
Data by John Taffin (http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/taffin.asp?Caliber=44%20Special&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=)

All articles with data for heavy .44 Special loads.

You are correct, throwing data out there has the potential of being dangerous. A quick search of "2400" in this particular forum netted a thread with .44 Magnum loads that were over Alliant's published maximum.

Let's all be careful.

35W

[cbrick]

Quote Originally Posted by cbrick View Post

I would start with 19.0 gr of 2400 and group at 50 yd.<snip>


Quote Originally Posted by 35 Whelen (You're recommending a STARTING load that is 1.0 gr. below Aliant's recommended MAX load. Remember, there may be new handloaders here...)

Quoted completely out of context from another thread, it has nothing what-so-ever to do with starting at upper end failure and working down which you gave a +1 to. Plus it wasn't a starting load but you neglected to include that part of my post in your unsuccessful attempt to make me look bad. It was also a recommendation for a 44 mag, not a recommendation to turn the 44 Special into a 44 mag. The 44 Spl has a SAAMI max pressure of 14,000 C.U.P., the 44 mag has a SAAMI rating of 40,000 C.U.P.

Here is the thread from which 35W quoted me completely out of context.

44 magnum. Advice appreciated! (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?226684-44-magnum-Advice-appreciated!)

The load I recommended to Goodsteel was in no way even edgy much less dangerous.


Incidentally about the only thing I find when I go from mild to wild with my loadings is my wrist gets sore faster with the heavy loads. Rarely do I find significant benefit of loading to the max.

Take Care, Bob

In addition to that, never in the 30 plus calibers I have worked with including several wildcats was the hottest "safe" load the most accurate. If actually hitting the target has any meaning over and above making the loudest boom loading within reality is not only the safest, it is the more accurate. It's also easier on the equipment and the shooter.

Starting at upper end failure and working down is the worst advice I have ever seen posted.

Rick

[robertbank]

OK guys lets get back to deer and bears. These threads often drift in various directions especially when "bears" are part of the discussion. With that in mind, and to aid in the process I'll ask one question. Unless you intend to eat the meat why shoot a bear? I can understand shooting nuisance bears because once they enter the world of man they can be more than a nuisance but to go hunt them. If you are involved in a bear attack - quite rare really - then fill your boots or pants as the case might be but to just go hunt them to kill them, seems rather pointless to me.

Take Care

Bob

[DougGuy]

Yeah really.. Deer and black bear are two of the easiest critters to kill in the lower 48 because they are thin skinned and easy to penetrate completely through. An 1873 Colt SAA with the original black powder cartridge load that the cavalry used will flat out knock both off their feet.

My choice these days is a 7 1/2" SBH, with the Lee C430-310-RF over 16.0gr H2400 WLP it groups very well, and probably runs about 1100f/s. I use 50/50 + 2% which is soft enough I can scratch it with my fingernail, but the gun took an immediate liking to this load and so there it is..

If I was going to get a Ruger strictly for hunting, I think I would hunt out a Super Blackhawk Hunter and mount an ultra dot on it.

The boolit that drops out of the Lee mold has a wide flat nose that cuts a clean, nice sized entrance wound, a golfball sized wound channel, and a clean exit wound that will have the animal bleeding profusely out of both sides. For this reason alone, it is an efficient killer. Place your shot well and you will never have to trail one very far.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/a93849e1-8296-4617-b4ff-6ae3e1b9b1c0_zpsdf33f23a.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/a93849e1-8296-4617-b4ff-6ae3e1b9b1c0_zpsdf33f23a.jpg.html)

[Blammer]

the green line is the bullets path completely through the deer.

I'd have NO worries using this on bear.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2008%20Deer/bulletpath.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2008%20Deer/bulletpath.jpg.html)

[Piedmont]

He also destroyed several 44 special revolvers leading him to work on the firearms and ammo mfg. for years to get them to produce guns and brass for the 44 mag.


I'm not aware of him blowing up any .44 Specials. He tried to get a factory to produce his heavy .44 Special load. S&W was worried about the triple lock standing the strain. Elmer said he had shot it for years and not had a problem. Whether S&W or Elmer first suggested a .44 magnum gun and cartridge as a solution I do not know, but the .357 Mag had been the hot factory cartridge for the past 20 years so everyone was aware of making the chambers and new case longer so it wouldn't chamber in an older, weaker gun. This was sort of a three way discussion and I think the ammo manufacturer was Remington.

[JHeath]

Well JHeath, I sure hope new reloaders reason things out for themselves instead of listening to you.

Load up to failure and then work backwards indeed.

That has to be the single worst advice I have ever seen posted on this forum. You should consider who is reading these posts and their experience level before you post such incredible nonsense as load to failure.

You should also consider that you have no idea of the experience of those that you attempt to berate and belittle. Notice I said "attempt" because you failed at that just as with offering loading advice.

Rick

You and the moderator have completely misunderstood the point. And the point, from an engineering standpoint, is pretty basic.

To develop a safe system you determine what design factor you want to use. For a typical acrobatic rigging system we try to use 10:1, which is pretty high.

Then learn what the failure strengths are, and work backwards from that.

E.g. if Linebaugh reports that the failure load is 80,000lbs, and he is OK with a 2:1 design ratio, then his allowable load is 40,000lbs.

But if I want to use a 4:1 design ration, then my allowable load is 20,000lbs with the same cartridge.

That's called working backwards from the failure load. If the failure load is published somewhere, you do not have to blow up a gun to determine whether 20,000 or 40,000 is your limit, and you know exactly where you stand re margin of safety.

Now apparently cbrick and the moderator subscribe to the conventional method of reading the "max" load in the loading manual and staying below it. That's okay and should be safe. Most people should do this.

But most of the time, the people who take the published "allowable" load as gospel have little or no idea what safety margin really exists. They only know it should be safe according to the published authorities. Users who operate this way generally do not know if they are maintaining a 2:1 design factor, or a 10:1 design factor. They are safe, but they are operating in the dark.

Read Linebaugh's article. He calculates backwards from a failure load, determines his own design factor, and he's not operating in the dark.

Guys who work this way often exceed published data, sometimes by a very large margin. Elmer Keith is a well known example. But they are not operating in the dark when they do it. They have a reasonable understanding of a failure load and they work backwards from that.

[Jevyod]

Unless you intend to eat the meat why shoot a bear? I can understand shooting nuisance bears because once they enter the world of man they can be more than a nuisance but to go hunt them.

Bob[/QUOTE]

Where I live there are an over abundance of bears. Up on the porch, knocking down feeders,etc. We live at the foot of a mountain, and there are plenty around. Wouldn't mind shooting a few for population control.

[robertbank]

JHeath we completely understand the issue here. Your point is not misunderstood, how it applies to amateur reloaders who dwell on this forum is the issue. I suggest you have made your point and we have ours. So how about we deal with deer and bears. Any further comments regarding the subject you seem to want to pursue will be deleted no matter who makes them. I trust everyone understands.

Take Care

Bob

[DougGuy]

OP, do you handload? I have both .44 Magnum and .45 Colt calibers and hunted with both. As far as damage on game or how quick or thoroughly either one kills game, 6 of one thing, half dozen of the other. With heavy boolits, there's not much difference in either caliber, they both kick like hell and kill very very dead.

The choice comes down to whether you handload or not. Finding good quality hunting ammo in .45 Colt can be VERY limiting and expensive when you do find it. If you handload, this is not an issue as you can load better than you can buy. The .44 Magnum is a much better choice if you don't handload simply because hunting ammo is much easier to find, at least until you get up into the heavy boolit ammo, then you have to hunt it down and it won't be factory loaded, it will be loaded by specialty ammo manufacturers and it will be expensive.

[357mags]

Stay with older S&W's & Colt's in 6"bbl. As for caliber, 357mag, 44mag are sure bets.

[monge]

When I first started hand loading I used to load everything to the max more was better . after years of hunting and testing on different game I realized that accurate loads killed better and cleaner because I could shoot them better. I load my 44mag to 44sp pressures, texas heart shot a deer at 80yards 240gr boolit clean pass through and broke breast bone! Why would I need more vel. or recoil? I stick to what I could shoot accurately at a given yardage.

[btroj]

I don't think black bears require any more "gun" than whitetails. I shot a couple with my Marlin 45-70 and the load used was more than was really needed. I used a 420 plain base at 1650, I think 1300 would have worked just as well.

The older I get the more likely I am to be more concerned with shot placement and less concerned with "raw power".

As for shooting bears in general, mine were good eating.

[Outpost75]

My deer gun is 5-1/2" Ruger Super Blackhawk, refitted with steel XR3 grip frame from Ruger Old Army, with Hamilton Bowen's Rough Country sights. I don't load it "hot" but go for most accurate load at 50 yards. I load 270-grain Saeco #141 cast 1:30 with 8 grains of Bullseye for 1050 +/- 30 fps. Accurate, good killer, easy shooting, AND you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Have killed a dozen or so deer and twice that many feral hogs over the years with that load, which does 1225 fps in 1894 Marlin with Microgroove barrel, requires no GCs and shoots 3-4" at 100 yards from the rifle. K.I.S.S. principle. All the rest is just mental masturbation.

[btroj]

I like that load Outpost. Accurate and enough to do the job.

I have been called a wimp, wuss, and worse on some sites for using similar type loads. I was told I might not be a real man as I didn't load my guns to the gills. I don't visit those sites anymore.

[Jevyod]

Yes, I do handload, and I also cast.

[Outpost75]

I like that load Outpost. Accurate and enough to do the job. I have been called a wimp, wuss, and worse on some sites for using similar type loads. I was told I might not be a real man as I didn't load my guns to the gills. I don't visit those sites anymore.

The fellows who think that a "good load" must singe your eyebrows, make your hand sting and your ears ring are over-compensating for their lack of skill and confidence. The original blackpowder loads in .44-40, using dead soft flat-nosed lead bullets at subsonic velocities were very effective killers in their day, and equivalent loads in modern cartridges still are, and are even more so, because more is understood today on the effect of bullet weight and shape on depth of penetration and "crush" characteristics.

90% of killing power is the exercise of good fieldcraft and marksmanship.

Those using loads more powerful than they can shoot accurately, attempting shots on game farther than they can guarantee clean kills, because they lack the patience and skill to get close, would be much better off with a blackpowder .44-40 carbine than an Eargazplittenlooudenboomer handgun.

Ego gets in the way of performance.

[robertbank]

Interesting comment Outpost75. Logic tells me both deer and bears haven't had the benefit of steroids in their diet so one can assume they are pretty much the same size as they were 150 years ago.

Deer on the Queen Charlotte's up here are about the size of a Great Dane only with antlers. Guys have shot them with .22lr. There are literally thousands of them on the islands. The season is open from July 1 to Dec 31 I believe. With tongue in cheek...sort of, some say the way to shoot them is in the head and on the road. I believe last year the possession limit was six!

Take Care

Bob

[btroj]

Yep, ego is a factor. Sort of like the guy with a huge lift kit and big mudders on his truck- compensation for something.

[Blammer]

Yep, ego is a factor. Sort of like the guy with a huge lift kit and big mudders on his truck- compensation for something.

yep, his fear of dirt.

[DougGuy]

I beg to differ, some of us can kill dirt skillfully and confidently any day of the week, and twice on Sunday! :bigsmyl2:

Jeyvod, I really like the Lee C430-310-RF for .44 Magnum and the Lee C452-300-RF for .45 Colt, cast in 50/50+2% is a good hunting alloy and it works very well in the 1050 - 1200f/s range which is very effective on any deer or black bear in the lower 48. They shoot very well and I am getting near zero leading, I could hunt the rest of my days here with just those two boolits and not miss out on anything.

Best loads (for me anyway) have been C430-310-RF over 16.0gr H2400, WLP, seated long, not a max load at all, velocity from a 7 1/2" SBH is around 1100f/s. and the C452-300-RF over 17.0gr LilGun, WLP, seated long, again not a max load, velocity from a 4 5/8" Vaquero is close to 1050f/s.