Cases hanging up after using M Die

[gussiegoins2]

I have been reloading for a long time but only recently started to use the Lyman M Die. I have placed the M die in the #1 positionon my Dillon 550, and I am decapping and resizing separately on my RockChucker. It seems to work well and groups have shrunk to at least half of what they were, with far fewer flyers in my Ruger Flattop BH in 44 Spl. That is too be expected and it is the reason I started using the M Die. There is just one problem: cases are very difficult to extract from the cylinder. This is with my everyday load of 7.0 gr Universal Clays with NOE 245gr Keith (GB mold). I never had this problem when I was belling on #2 position with the Dillon powder drop. On all of these loads I am roll crimping separately in postion #4 with the Dillon die using a fairly heavy crimp. I have tried three different amouts of expanding/belling with the M die(slight, medium, and heavy belling) and they are all about the same level of extraction difficulty from all six chambers in my cylinder. I bought a RCBS Cowboy Expander for my 44 Spl. at the same time as the M Die and tried it out this morning. Same result: difficult extraction. Am I setting the expander dies up wrong? Do I need a different roll crimping die than the Dillion? I set the Dillon die up to get a heavy crimp without swaging down my 0.431" bullets (I pulled some to check and had to lighten my crimp a tad to keep from swaging the bullet down to 0.430"). I have a 44Spl. taper crimp die I haven't tried yet. Do you think that would help? Thanks for your imput.

[Artful]

So the only difference is your belling the case before putting into the Dillon station to bell and dump powder? - and you've checked that the powder charge is the same as before?

[gussiegoins2]

No, I am belling/expanding the case with a M die in position #1 in the Dillon. I am also priming the case in position #1. The case has already been sized and deprimed with a Dillon resizing die on my RockChucker before it goes to the Dillon 550. The belled/expanded case goes on to position #2 for the powder drop. The case is not belled further in position #2 (I checked), it only receives a powder drop in position #2. I checked that the powder drop of 7.0gr is the same as before.

[Artful]

Have you changed powder or seating depth or anything else?

Have you tried going back to doing it without the M die and just using the powder thru expander?

[gussiegoins2]

I haven't changed powder or bullet seating depth. I have tried going back and not using the M die, belling with the Dillon powder thru expander. The result is my cases eject easily, some just falling out with the 7.0gr Univ. load and 245 Keith. I try to minimize the bell when I am using the Dillon expander and getting the bullet to stay aligned on seating is not always precise. Hence, switching to the M Die. The M die expands leaving a shoulder about 1/16" deep with a very slight bell on top of that at the very topmost rim of the case. This makes bullet alignment straighter and more consistent, which is what I want. The roll crimp eliminates the bell, but I don't think it is eliminating all of the shoulder base caused by the M die. The outside measurement of the case at this shoulder base is 0.456" before firing, but also 0.456" after firing. This is with calipers, I haven't measured it with a micrometer yet. The shoulder base is shinier than the rest of the case once I get it extracted, which leaves me to believe that this is the area causing the case to hang up in the cylinder. The cases are stuck fast at the first application of the ejector rod, but once I get the case to move a millimeter or two it ejects cleanly. Any thoughts?

[gefiltephish]

Perhaps step one of the expander plug is too large for your application? A too heavy crimp may be causing additional expansion at the "shoulder".

[gussiegoins2]

gefiltephish,
I check out the expander plug dimensions. I like your idea on maybe too heavy a crimp. I'll check that out today. Thanks, gg

[EDG]

I am not sure how any expander die could contribute to hard extraction.
Make sure your cylinder is clean.
Are you shooting 44 Special in .44 Mag cylinders?
Have you thought about reducing the load one grain?
Is there any chance your cylinder has been damaged?

[BK7saum]

I was also thinking that the heavy crimp could be swelling the brass a little at the shoulder.

[noylj]

If the bullets are held tight and the rounds drop in the cylinder by their own weight, I can not imagine what the M-die could do to cause the problem. Anything it does is "corrected" by seating and crimping.
You MAY want to get a Redding Profile Crimp Die--this is the single best die I have found for roll crimping.

[jsizemore]

Try dropping your powder charge and check extraction.

[gefiltephish]

If the bullets are held tight and the rounds drop in the cylinder by their own weight, I can not imagine what the M-die could do to cause the problem. Anything it does is "corrected" by seating and crimping.
You MAY want to get a Redding Profile Crimp Die--this is the single best die I have found for roll crimping.

Yeah, this makes sense. If the expander was the source of the problem, it would be noticeable loading the cylinder rather than unloading it. It doesn't make any sense that the Dillon expander does not cause this problem but the m-die would. I would think that once fired, the case would form to the chamber regardless of the expander. One thing to try is to load one round with no crimp and see if it sticks. Also try a few with a slightly lighter charge. Are the chambers carboned up? Maybe not enough to cause insertion issues but possibly just enough to create extra traction after being fired. Well, I'm grabbing at straws now.

I also use a profile crimp die for 38/357.

[gussiegoins2]

After cleaning my cylinder I think I have found the problem. All my throats are 0.4305 ish and I switch recently switched from a 0.430 to a 0.431" bullet in this ruger atop 44 spl. Now the cases are a little short 1.15 instead of 1.16". Result: slight leading of the cylinder right before the throat starts. Upon firing I believe the case moves back slightly and lead is being shaved off as it enters the throat and making the case extraction sticky. I believe once I scrub this out and go back to a 0.430" bullet my problem will disappear. I will keep you posted. Thanks for the help. GG

[noylj]

In many cases, the bullet needs to be a tight slip fit in the cylinder's throats and not larger (and definitely not smaller). In your case, the "step" to the throat may be too sharp (lack of chamfer or whatever), causing the bullets to be scrapped.
Good to know you found the probable cause.