44 magnum. Advice appreciated!

[MBTcustom]

I have a new revolver that I am working on getting going. It's a JP Suar and Sohn SAA clone in 44 magnum.
Now, I have limited experience with revolvers. I have shot a lot of boolits from a S&W mod19, but that basically consisted of me copying my dad's old target load, and it worked so well, I never learned how to load for a revolver where things aren't exactly perfect.

SO!
Here's the dealio:
This pistol came with a .4315 groove diameter and cylinder throats that are .4375. I was hoping that I could make it work as is, but no joy.
The only 44 mold I have is an old and busted Lyman 429421 SWC, and the alloy used was 50/50 WD.
I have only used 2400 in this gun and ran test loads that ranged from 16gr to 24gr in 1/2gr increments.
The best accuracy came from 17gr. of 2400 but that was lackluster to say the least with groups about 4" in diameter about 6" high and 6" left of POA.
I decided to modify the mold to drop a .437 diameter boolit so I made a special reamer with many fine teeth and reamed the driving bands by hand till they were the right size.
Turns out that if I seated a .437 boolit in new Starline brass, I could just barely get them in the cylinder with light thumb pressure.
The result was a 4" group at 30 yards that was much more centered on POA, but I don't like the idea of throwing a boolit that big down a hole that small (I'm willing, just doesn't seem like the ideal situation for good accuracy. But what do I know?).

So I ordered a new cylinder for the pistol (For $50 how could I resist?)
The fit and timing of the new cylinder was satisfactory with my only complaint being a .010 cylinder gap (which ended up being less when the cartridges are in the gun because the rims set it forward).
The new throats measure .433-.4335 (some are slightly elliptical. Measurements were taken from slugs of each throat).

Today, I wanted to give er a test run, so I set about making a new sizing die for the 450 that would put the boolit diameter at .432.
However, I made a mistake with the boring bar, and ended up making the die .434 instead. I cussed, but figured it was worth a shot, so I sized all the boolits I had already made and commenced the loading process.
Unfortunately, after seating the first boolit, blowing the tip for luck, and admiring it in the flickering fluorescent shop lights, I tried to slip it in the cylinder and it wouldn't go.
Hmmmm
I set about measuring stuff (nervous tick) and found that the chamber ID's were .459 at the rim tapering to .456 just before the throat. The cartridge loaded with the .434 boolit measured .458 right under the crimp and had no crimp "speed bump".

Now, its true that I ended up cutting the sizer .002 oversize, and it's true that those 2 thousandths will go a long way towards making those cartridges dunk in there properly, but I would really prefer to have some more breathing room.
I'm going to remake the sizing die, and get it right this time, but I wonder if I mightn't also rent a reamer and dress out the cylinder slightly to set the chambers to the correct SAAMI spec (.460 tapering to .458).
I only hesitate because I wonder if the tight chamber might actually be a good thing if I can make it work, thus, I decided to ask the much more proficient and experienced shooters on this sight.

As it was, I loaded up 40 cartridges with some jacketed HP bullets I had been given (ugg) with 19.5gr of 2400 and headed out to the range today. The difference between this and the jacketed loads I had tried before was like night and day. Just resting my arms on the rail of my pickup truck, I drilled out a 2" hole at 20 yards (which quickly opened up from me getting a flinch. Geez! this aint no .22!)
After that, me and my friends set up three clay pigeons at about the same range. It was me against my buddy with his Glock 23. I demolished all three clays in short order drwing cheers of triumph and agony.
It was a fun time. Matter of fact, any time with a halfway decent pistol is a fun time.
I sure hope I can get something going with this gun. It's just about the smallest, handiest 44 I have ever seen.

SO, how do I get this baby to shoot cast? What's your opinion oh ye sage booliteer?
Thanks!

[AlaskanGuy]

Well, first get yourself a great mold...... In a gun that small, i would stay away from my heavies like the lee 310-430 and the lyman 429649... See if you can come up with a RCBS 44-250-KT .... That ought to shoot great in the small powerful 44... If need be my Brother in Christ, i can cast some up for ya..... Just pm me with how you want them sized....

There are many other folks around here that will be better at recommending what to do with your dimensions and such, and many folks will recommend going with H110 powder, but I use Ramshot enforcer.... Works great in the 44 and meters ok too....

Blessings big man....

AlaskanGuy

[Messy bear]

Hey Tim
I think you are on right track with sizing 432. Then you will have .001 to .0015 clearance in throats and a bit of interference with groove. I would keep the chambers as is for now. .003" taper in chambers is fine. Freedom arms uses 3-4 in the 454 chambers. Linebaugh guns have 3-4 as well. Hope you get it going!

[MBTcustom]

Back atcha there AG.
I am hoping against hope that I can get a workable load with 2400. Once I find a good load, I plan on yankin the trigger on this baby like a reno slot machine, and I stumbled into a pretty good sized keg of 2400 that would keep me busy for a while. Not only that, but I'm going to try to get my 45-70 to work with the same powder.
Things just aren't what they used to be with powder selection at an affordable price, so I want to use something that I have an abundance of, that is very common so that I can be buying powder while the keg is still half full. There's nothing quite so frustrating as running dry on a powder you are used to and then not being able to get ahold of it anymore. In fact, 296 and H110 are really scarce around here right now. There's a guy at work that wants to feed his 500S&W. He came in cussin and cryin because he can't get H110 anywhere. I told him that the next time I tell him to get while the gettin's good, he should take my advice and buy more than one pound of powder. Oh well, some fellers are always trying to ice skate up hill.

[AlaskanGuy]

Well, You could also use Unique..... for lighter loads if you got some of that.... I load up 8 grains for AlaskanGurl so she can shoot the big boy....

I have used 2400 a bunch of times in the 44, but I am down to under a LB of 2400 so I am gunna just Sit on it... Till I make it to town later this month.. its a 8 hour one way trip depending on the boat I can get on.. LOL

Here is a pic of the map of the boat ride... Black Line is the route...

93420

[MT Gianni]

Wow Tim, my first thought was to ream the cylinder out to 45 Colt and replace the bbl. I think you are on the right track with the cylinder finishing but a rebore of a sizing die to .432 might be cheaper.
The tight chamber may save you some cases far down the road, I hope we are never in a situation where we need to milk 20+ firings from brass as there is no replacement around but that is the main benefit. There may be an accuracy benefit as well but the b/c gap defeats a lot.

[MtGun44]

You are getting there. Get that boolit sized to the throat diam or throat +.001, due to
the elliptical nature. This will let it chamber, based on your measurements. Stop water
dropping, harder is not helpful in my experience, altho I will get many to disagree.

The barrel forcing cone can be recut to 11 degrees, but I'd leave this for later. Look and
see if the forcing cone looks symmetrical to the barrel. Many are not, so a piloted pull bar
type of forcing cone cutter (Brownell's or you can make one) will center up the forcing
cone.

Check for a tight area in the barrel at the threads. If so, make frame matched oak blocks
unscrew the bbl and take enough off the barrel shoulder in the lathe to screw the barrel
in and clock the front sight with just hand torque. Then put red Loctite on the barrel
threads and screw in - make sure the clocking is right before it cures! Heat will break the
Loctite to remove it later, if necessary. Non-machinist/gunsmiths fire lap out the constriction, but
this is the way I have had my gunsmith deal with them and it works very well and is
quick and totally controllable, unlike fire lapping.

Good luck.

Bill

[MBTcustom]

You are getting there. Get that boolit sized to the throat diam or throat +.001, due to
the elliptical nature. This will let it chamber, based on your measurements.
Bill

No it won't. The throats are .4335. Last night I loaded a catridge with a boolit that was .434 and tried it in the cylinder. It would only go in about 1/8".
I loaded up 40 cartridges with copper jacketed bullets that measured .431 and some of those took thumb pressure to seat them in the cylinder at the range.
I might be able to get .432 boolits to work here most of the time, but I think I'm going to be plagued with tight fitting cartridges if I don't fix it.

I'll check the other things you mention.

[cbrick]

Today is your lucky day . . . Check your mail box, RCBS boolits sized .4315" are right there . . . In your mail box. Also MP clone of H&G #503 un-sized. These two boolits are very similar with the RCBS just a bit lighter.

Advice is correct, leave the chambers alone for now. Aside from longer brass life you will also get better alignment of the cartridge keeping the boolit straight in the throat and in line with the center line of the bore. With a loose chamber the cartridge lays on the bottom of the chamber angled down not in a straight line with the bore.

Bill is right, should be no need to water drop and the boolits you are about to retrieve from your mail box are CWW +2% Sn air cooled.

Rick

USPS Tracking
Arrival at Post Office CONWAY, AR 72034 January 12, 2014 9:37 am
Depart USPS Sort Facility FAYETTEVILLE, AR 72701 January 10, 2014
Processed at USPS Origin Sort Facility FAYETTEVILLE, AR 72701 January 10, 2014 9:11 pm
Dispatched to Sort Facility MOUNTAIN HOME, AR 72653 January 10, 2014 6:46 pm
Acceptance MOUNTAIN HOME, AR 72653 January 10, 2014 2:06 pm

[MBTcustom]

Thank you very much Rick.

Accuracy from tight chambers seems intuitive and I'll leave them alone for the moment. I just worry about leading and accuracy from shooting groove diameter boolits (although, admittedly, accuracy couldn't be much worse than it was before LOL!)

How would you recommend I load these Rick? It's obvious I'm dealing with a whole new gun at this point, so where should I start?
Powders I have to work with:
2400
Unique
700X
Clays
SR 4756
I've got at least two pounds of each of those.
I have been working with a big gob of FWFL for the last two years, but I have a few good sized blocks of beeswax, lanolin, and carnauba wax. I'm also a big fan of White Label Lubes as they are local to me. There's not a lube I can't make, or am unwilling to buy.
I am a little stuck on primers, as I only have Tula large pistol, and I'm lucky to have gotten those.

[cbrick]

I've never been a fan of fast powders in mag cases, I know many people have had success with them but I've always had better luck with long range revolver loads with the slower powders. Of your powders for right now I would stick with the 2400. Since you said you wanted to keep the loads light that would rule out powders like H-110, such ball powders need to be loaded to near book max to work well.

I've never used Tula primers but I've not heard anyone say anything bad about them.

With the dimensions of the revolver now you have slightly loose boolits in the throats and a pretty good match to groove diameter. Ideally for accuracy you don't want to turn the boolit into a lump of putty, the less it's sized down, expanded back out the better. If the forcing cone and cylinder timing is good & the boolit starting out life well aligned with the center line of the bore all should be good. You can make your new sizing die for the MP boolits & size for a better throat fit but first try the sized RCBS boolits.

Don't worry about lube for right now, just keep using the felix lube. Your not setting any velocity records here, they are fairly moderate loads for the 44 mag and any decent lube should work well. Lube isn't causing your revolver to shoot poor groups.

Now about that trigger guard hitting your knuckle that you mentioned, put Pachmeyers on that gun and you'll think your shooting a 22 rimfire.

Rick

[Shuz]

Tim--With the .4315 boolits Rick sent, try 18 to 19 g of 2400. That load works very well in all my .44 mags, but for primers, I have only used Rem 2-1/2's, CCI-300 or Win WLP.

[white eagle]

not that you have it but if you can get some 4227 I have had real good accuracy with that

[tuckerdog]

you appear to have the equipment, when you get the diameter issue figured out try lees 200grn rnfp. open the cavities up to fit your revolver. very accurate in my super Blackhawk with 9.5grn unique. very accurate

[Sweetpea]

I'm no gun genius, or machinist, so bear with me...

Would it be totally out of the question to ream out the throats, and silver solder some bushings sized .432?

Tim, I know you CAN do it, just not sure if it SHOULD be done?

Brandon

[MtGun44]

OOPS, sorry on the fit issue. That is a PITA.

Best of luck. I wonder if lapping out the chambers a couple thousandths would
be the overall simplest fix?

Do you know if there is a thread constriction in the bbl?

Bill

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=MtGun44;2575532]OOPS, sorry on the fit issue. That is a PITA.

Best of luck. I wonder if lapping out the chambers a couple thousandths would
be the overall simplest fix?

I once tapped the base of a 30-30 casing and used it as a lap to open the neck area up on a seating die to allow larger boolits to seat. That might be a simple solution. Just removing the ever present cutter marks should take a thou out pretty quickly.

[seaboltm]

you appear to have the equipment, when you get the diameter issue figured out try lees 200grn rnfp. open the cavities up to fit your revolver. very accurate in my super Blackhawk with 9.5grn unique. very accurate

I use 9.5 grains of unique under a 240 Lee TL for a "light" load.

[btroj]

Tim, I know that gun has sentimental value to you. My suggestion is to keep it as a sentimental piece and buy a new revolver as a shooter.

If that isn't an option do they make cylinders that will fit that are chambered for something smaller? Like a 41 mag? Get a 41 mag cylinder and ream the chambers and throats to the size YOU want.

A chamber that doesn't accept a bullet the size you need is a sure fire leading machine.

[MBTcustom]

I don't know about the thread constriction, but if t'were present, I believe I would have seen it in the form of a leaded barrel. As it is, I have yet to get any leading in this barrel even when I shot groove diameter boolits, so I suspect there is little if any, but I'll check it out. If there is constriction, then I will use the old cylinder to firelap the barrel out. That way I don't firelap the throats any bigger on the new cylinder.
I'm going to load some .432 boolits in the brass and see if the cartridges will fit in the chambers. If not, then I'm going to get a true chamber reamer and dress the chambers out to SAAMI spec. I may hit the barrel with an 11degree forcing cone cutter too, but like I said before, one step at a time.
The biggest hurtle I have before me right now, is getting properly sized ammo in the gun, so that's what I will focus on.

BTW, I just received a pile of boolits from Rick yesterday. I gotta tell ya, the ones in the pictures are an accurate representation of the quality of his castings. Pick one at random. They are all as perfect as a cast boolit can be. Seeing a whole bag of them, or in this case THREE bags of them, cast at different dates, and they are all similar quality, is rather humbling.
I opened them at my day job this morning, and one of the old fellers that was looking over my shoulder said "Dang those are pretty! Bet they were expensive huh?" I told him they were actually pretty inexpensive for the guy that made them, but they don't get that pretty on accident!

I also got some boolits fromBHN22 that are almost as good. Certainly better than a random sampling of my cast boolits. Oh well, if I didn't have anything to learn, I wouldn't be here in the first place.

Oh and Brad, I'm not giving up on this pistol. First of all, you never learn anything from a perfect pistol, and secondly this one has it where it counts. It's just a little misbehaved, and needs to be trained up right. Nothing I can't handle with a little bit of careful research and tweaking (to say nothing of the expert advice from the fellers who have been doing this since before I was a twinkle in my daddy's eyes. LOL!)

Another thing that bears mentioning, is that this gun has certain properties that make it ideal for a hunting/self defense pistol.
It's light, and handy, and has no target sights to get snagged on stuff. It's also cheap but is made very well, so I can have a good shooter that isn't going to break my heart if it gets stolen.

All I know about making a revolver perfect has come in bits and pieces over the years. I know more about how to work over the triggers and actions than I do about the perfect relationship between barrel and cylinder characteristics. I'm learning a ton from this.
So far, I think that what I am seeing is that you want:
A cylinder that holds the cartridges tightly (SAAMI minimum).
Throats that are .002 larger than groove diameter
Boolits that are .001 over groove but .001 less than throat (tip from Glen Fryxell based on extensive tests he has done).
Cylinder gap of .004-.005

I'm sure more will become apparent as I go along.

[btroj]

True, a perfect gun teaches you nothing. That gun is going to earn you a PhD! Maybe a couple of em.

Can you get a cylinder chambered for a smaller caliber that could then be reamed to proper dimensions? That might be the easy out.

I would try a variety of sizes of bullets that do fit your existing chamber. Some times thing work even though it doesn't make sense.

Above all else, listen to what Rick tells you regarding loading for your gun. He has been there and done that. He has a proven record of long range accuracy and that isn't by accident. When he speaks, listen!

Work on your shooting technique. Handguns aren't easy to master, I certainly haven't do it. The best gun in the world in the hands of a poor shot is still going to give big groups.

Keep up the effort Tim. You will either prevail or go insane. I'm pretty sure we will be able to tell which it is.......

[ACrowe25]

FWIW:

I use TALP primers exclusively. Shot them next to winxhester also when I had some left and notice no difference out to 50 yards rested.

I also use WLL (BAC) with no issues as you mentioned.

I use the lee 240 swc mold and it shoots terrific. Better than I can indeed. I shoot both over 231/hp-38 and 2400. 231 if I expect to shoot 100+ at a range trip (7.3 gr) and 2400 if I'm 50 or below lol.

[cbrick]

First things first. Use those RCBS boolits I sent you that were sized with a .432" Star die, they should be right at .4315" and load them & chamber them. Based on your posted measurements they should fit even if slightly snug. I would start with 19.0 gr of 2400 and group at 50 yd., closer than that won't really tell you much. Pick out a single lot of brass and keep them separate, do not mix brass because different brands and even different lots of the same brand will have different wall thickness, your working with fairly close tolerances with this cylinder. If these RCBS sized .4315" boolits fit well you can make your sizer die to size your alloy to this diameter.

Glen is absolutely correct on his advice for tolerances for the throats. I use the same criteria except I explain it as "a mild snug fit in the throats". If you can lightly tap a boolit through all six holes with a pencil your good (but not fall through). As for throat fit my biggest concern right now is your post that "some" of the throats are elliptical. You didn't say how much out of round or how many of them, that could be important. The entire purpose of the throats in a revolver is to guide the boolit in perfect alignment with the center line of the bore into the forcing cone. The purpose of the throats IS NOT to size the boolits even though the throats are the world's best boolit sizer the less the boolit is molested (changed) the better. Same with the bore, a boolit that exits the throats and enters the bore with minimum re-sizing all the better as long as it's at least groove diameter.

Next is the barrel cylinder gap of .010" but less with rounds chambered, how much less? Not yet but be prepared to set the barrel back to a max of about .004" with cartridges loaded. If you get to this point also be aware of cylinder run-out. Cylinder run-out is the reason many revolvers have the wide barrel cylinder gap that they do, it's built in to assure the cylinder will rotate.

Have you inspected the crown on this revolver? Even and smooth all the way around? Think muzzle pressure with a poor crown exactly the same as an accurate rifle and just as important.

I was very serious in the previous post when I recommended putting pachmeyer's on that revolver. Large hands (you) and tiny single action grips are just about a guarantee of worse grouping than the revolver is capable of.

Ok, how did those RCBS boolits shoot? Better? Worse? The same? That's the place to start & what we need to know.

Rick

BTW: Glad you finally got the chance to talk with Glen, he is a great guy and very knowledgeable.

[MBTcustom]

First things first. Use those RCBS boolits I sent you that were sized with a .432" Star die, they should be right at .4315" and load them & chamber them. Based on your posted measurements they should fit even if slightly snug. I would start with 19.0 gr of 2400 and group at 50 yd., closer than that won't really tell you much.
Will do, exactly as you say. I shot the gun with 19.5gr Sunday and it was doable, but I was starting to flinch pretty bad by the time I was done.


Pick out a single lot of brass and keep them separate, do not mix brass because different brands and even different lots of the same brand will have different wall thickness, your working with fairly close tolerances with this cylinder. If these RCBS sized .4315" boolits fit well you can make your sizer die to size your alloy to this diameter.
No problem. I bought 100 Starline brass from the same lot to load for this gun and that's all I am using. I'll shoot 'em till they start crackin, then start over with a fresh lot. I gave up on using janky range brass a long time ago. Now I buy new brass for each gun as I work with it, and I get premium quality. That's one variable I am able to eliminate simply by where and how I get my brass.


Glen is absolutely correct on his advice for tolerances for the throats. I use the same criteria except I explain it as "a mild snug fit in the throats". If you can lightly tap a boolit through all six holes with a pencil your good (but not fall through). As for throat fit my biggest concern right now is your post that "some" of the throats are elliptical. You didn't say how much out of round or how many of them, that could be important. The entire purpose of the throats in a revolver is to guide the boolit in perfect alignment with the center line of the bore into the forcing cone. The purpose of the throats IS NOT to size the boolits even though the throats are the world's best boolit sizer the less the boolit is molested (changed) the better. Same with the bore, a boolit that exits the throats and enters the bore with minimum re-sizing all the better as long as it's at least groove diameter.
That's a juicy nugget that I will commit to memory. Thanks for being willing to share! That's the kind of knowledge that comes slow and hard. I think I'm actually in a position to make use of this info with this revolver.


Next is the barrel cylinder gap of .010" but less with rounds chambered, how much less? Not yet but be prepared to set the barrel back to a max of about .004" with cartridges loaded. If you get to this point also be aware of cylinder run-out. Cylinder run-out is the reason many revolvers have the wide barrel cylinder gap that they do, it's built in to assure the cylinder will rotate.
This is no problem. If it needs some love in that area, I can cylindrically grind the face of the cylinder perfectly square to the center line of rotation and make it dead nuts perfect. Setting the barrel back would take a minute or two, but I'm perfectly willing and able to do so, and I can make it perfect as well. The only thing I'm missing is the forcing cone cutter.


Have you inspected the crown on this revolver? Even and smooth all the way around? Think muzzle pressure with a poor crown exactly the same as an accurate rifle and just as important.
The very first thing I did when I got the pistol was to recut the crown.
Yes it was off kilter. No, it's not any more.


I was very serious in the previous post when I recommended putting pachmeyer's on that revolver. Large hands (you) and tiny single action grips are just about a guarantee of worse grouping than the revolver is capable of.
I would do exactly that, but I am not sure if this pistol is exactly the same as a Colt SAA in the size and shape of the grips. I'm looking into it, but push comes to shove, I'll make a new grip frame that is larger, and get some bigger grips on it.


Ok, how did those RCBS boolits shoot? Better? Worse? The same? That's the place to start & what we need to know.

Rick
As soon as I know, you will too. I have the jacketed bullets as a baseline, as well as the previous cast boolit loads. First I have to see of I can get the blamed things in the cylinder at all.



BTW: Glad you finally got the chance to talk with Glen, he is a great guy and very knowledgeable.
Excellent feller, and very knowledgeable. I'm afraid I talked his ear off a little too long, but it was a very informative conversation, and I'm glad I got a chance to talk to him.
Thanks for hookin me up Rick!

[MBTcustom]

OK!
I got home today and had about a million things to do, but got a spare minute to devote to this project.
I went and grabbed that baggie of RCBS boolits, and a couple pieces of my brass from the tumbler. I checked the boolit with a micrometer and it was just as you said (.4315).
I went ahead and sized two brass, and flared them (just enough that the boolit could perch) and seated a boolit.
Sure looks purdy:
(please advise on crimp depth, and seating depth. This looked perfect to me?)
93552

Then, I tried the dummy cartridge in all six chambers. It slipped into all of them. In fact, it might have fallen in with gravity, except on two chambers where it needed some thumb pressure to seat properly. It was weird, it was like it "clicked" in place when I thumbed it. Never seen that before, and I didn't have time to locate the source of the restriction, but I will investigate further tomorrow evening.
93553

I had some down time at work today so I made the correct .4318 sizing die. I'll make others as needed. I put a radius in the center of my plug so as to miss any abnormality I might have from the sprue cut:
93554


SO!
I now know that I can fit a groove diameter boolit seated in FL sized brass in my gun, and it's free enough to slide in and out easily.
The last thing I did is pull that boolit from the brass and measure it. It had not changed one iota and still measured .4315.
However, I worry about shooting a groove diameter boolit, as I have had ".001 over" drilled into my head like a mantra for the last 3 years. Isn't that like capitol sin?

[btroj]

Only the gun know Tim. It might work, might not. Only one way to know, isn't there!

The size die is one nice looking piece of work, I like the markings. What did you use for the markings? They are neat and even, looks dang nice.

[cbrick]

The crimp is good, just as I like to crimp with the edge of the case mouth just under the edge of the front driving band regardless of how deep the crimp groove may be. The picture looks like a lot of crimp but remember that a close up picture magnifies the object just like looking through microscope.

Clicked into place was probably the front edge of the driving band slipped past the entrance to the throat. Possibly a slightly crooked seated boolit or possibly the cartridge was just inserted slightly off center and again, it slipped into the throat. But that's good, in the throat is exactly where you want the front driving band. A look at the inside of the throats for any possible machine marks or burs would be good, you do have a bore scope don't you?

Size one of the MP #503's I sent you with your new die. That alloy should size .0004"-.0005" under actual die size. If so the 503 should size slightly smaller than .4315". Take one of the 503's un-sized and try it in each of the throats to see if it is a mild snug fit without sizing or won't go in. If I remember correctly the 503 cast at .433" plus or minus a tenth or two. A sizing die that will give these boolits a mild snug fit would be a good thing and then you can probably feel it click in all six holes. :mrgreen:

Not to worry at this point about groove sized boolits (did I mention forget the water dropping?), worry after you shoot some of them if it leads but I doubt it will if the cylinder timing is good. After you get a die for the 503 that hopefully will size and fit the throats that will be a tad larger than the RCBS's .4315" you should be chitting in tall cotton.

What you need to do now is get some of the RCBS boolits loaded and shoot them, since you waste so much time in the frivolous pursuit of earning a living that may take some time huh? The RCBS's are lubed with Rick's special goop, I think you will like it so just load'em and shoot'em.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

The crimp is good, just as I like to crimp with the edge of the case mouth just under the edge of the front driving band regardless of how deep the crimp groove may be. The picture looks like a lot of crimp but remember that a close up picture magnifies the object just like looking through microscope.
Like I said, it looked perfect to me, and after pulling the boolit and seeing no deformation of the underlying driving band, I thought I nailed it pretty close. You're right about the magnified picture. A good camera can be a poor man's microscope in a pinch.

Clicked into place was probably the front edge of the driving band slipped past the entrance to the throat. Possibly a slightly crooked seated boolit or possibly the cartridge was just inserted slightly off center and again, it slipped into the throat. But that's good, in the throat is exactly where you want the front driving band. A look at the inside of the throats for any possible machine marks or burs would be good, you do have a bore scope don't you?


Size one of the MP #503's I sent you with your new die. That alloy should size .0004"-.0005" under actual die size. If so the 503 should size slightly smaller than .4315". Take one of the 503's un-sized and try it in each of the throats to see if it is a mild snug fit without sizing or won't go in. If I remember correctly the 503 cast at .433" plus or minus a tenth or two. A sizing die that will give these boolits a mild snug fit would be a good thing and then you can probably feel it click in all six holes. :mrgreen:
I sized a few of your 503's. Man that's a tough alloy! got a little spring back and they came out .4321.
Unsized, the 503's measure .4332.
I tried to push one of the unsized ones through the throats. No joy. I could get it started but not much else. This doesn't surprise me because that is almost exactly right in the middle of the measured throat diameters.
So I took one of the sized ones and I could push it through all six throats with even thumb pressure. It just pooped out inside the chamber (I was pushing it from the front of the cylinder).
All the throats required even pressure except one, and that was just the slightest little touch stiffer. Not so you would even notice if you weren't looking for consistency.


Not to worry at this point about groove sized boolits (did I mention forget the water dropping?), worry after you shoot some them if it leads but I doubt it will if the cylinder timing is good. After you get a die for the 503 that hopefully will size and fit the throats that will be a tad larger than the RCBS's .4315" you should be chitting in tall cotton.
I'm catchin what you're layin down. Keep 'em soft so they can bump just a smidge.
If I understood Glen's instructions and yours, I am in fact taking a #2 in the proverbial gossypium hirsutum given that the die I made does in fact size them so that they slip through with light finger pressure, yes?


What you need to do now is get some of the RCBS boolits loaded and shoot them, since you waste so much time in the frivolous pursuit of earning a living that may take some time huh? The RCBS's are lubed with Rick's special goop, I think you will like it so just load'em and shoot'em.

Rick

Indeed! I may get a chance to go out this weekend.
So, 19gr of 2400.
Given the new information, should I roll with the 503's or one of the others? Combination of both?
What say you?

BTW Brad,
I'm glad you like the markings on my dies. It's a side hobby of mine, where I hold a paintbrush that has only one eyelash glued to the end of a toothpick, and held in my toes to paint the letters in cold blue. Like it?

[btroj]

A guy your size can touch his toes?

I hope this all works put for you Tim, a gun that doesn't want to shoot is a pain. I almost got rid of a Marlin 357 for that reason. I got lucky and found the right mould.

[MBTcustom]

I am almost 100% certain that the problems I'm having with this gun are 99% the nut with his booger pickers draped across the bang switch Brad.
I have always had high hopes for this gun, and if it ever doesn't cooperate with me, I will persuade it to do otherwise.

Right now, I'm just learning how to do the basic things necessary to get any revolver working right, and I'm hoping that others are licking their pencils and flipping their dad gum notepads, cause so far, this is just solid cast boolitry 101.
It's just a direction I never went very far in.

Thanks Rick, for seeing fit to lavish us with your expertise! I doubt anything you are telling us came easy or cheap, and I'm sure we all appreciate you taking the time (at least I do!)

[cbrick]

I'm a bit confused. The new die sizes the 503's .4322" and it does or does not fit through the throats? If they do use that die, if not you'll need a new die so these boolits are a mild snug slip though the throats.

Shoot both boolits & see what happens. 19.0 gr 2400 should be a good place to start, it seemed from the other thread that 18.2 gr wasn't getting a good burn, stepping it up a bit won't be hot rodding it but could help with the combustion, we shall see.

As for the nut with his booger pickets draped across the bang switch, that's for another thread titled "long range revolver accuracy". A hint though, first you need to remove the boogers, neither a sticky nor a slippery trigger finger is good for trigger control.

Rick

[cbrick]

Unsized, the 503's measure .4332. I tried to push one of the unsized ones through the throats. No joy. I could get it started but not much else. This doesn't surprise me because that is almost exactly right in the middle of the measured throat diameters.

In the middle of measured throat diameters? .4332" is the middle of diameters? How egg shaped are these throats?


So I took one of the sized ones and I could push it through all six throats with even thumb pressure. It just pooped out inside the chamber (I was pushing it from the front of the cylinder). All the throats required even pressure except one, and that was just the slightest little touch stiffer. Not so you would even notice if you weren't looking for consistency.


One of the 503's sized with your new die? Or the RCBS's sized .4315"? I don't know what "pooped out inside the chamber" means? Which one fit correctly?

BTW, cool die, never seen the date of mfg on a sizer die before. :mrgreen:

Rick

[MBTcustom]

I'm a bit confused. The new die sizes the 503's .4322" and it does or does not fit through the throats? If they do use that die, if not you'll need a new die so these boolits are a mild snug slip though the throats.

Shoot both boolits & see what happens. 19.0 gr 2400 should be a good place to start, it seemed from the other thread that 18.2 gr wasn't getting a good burn, stepping it up a bit won't be hot rodding it but could help with the combustion, we shall see.

As for the nut with his booger pickets draped across the bang switch, that's for another thread titled "long range revolver accuracy". A hint though, first you need to remove the boogers, neither a sticky nor a slippery trigger finger is good for trigger control.

Rick

The die I made sizes your 503's from .4332 down to .4321. The .4321 can be pushed through the throats with thumb pressure. The .4332 diameter boolits cannot be. I believe that I would have trouble pushing anything larger than .4322 through the throats.

[MBTcustom]

What I posted before is that I measured the throats of the revolver as .433-.4335. As in, when measuring each throat, depending on where I took the measurement, sometimes I would get .4331 and sometimes I would get .4335.
Having pushed the lubed boolit through the throat, I can see the high spots in the cylinder as black streaks because I have not cleaned the throats since firing the pistol Sunday.
You can easily see what I am dealing with in this photo:
93572

[MtGun44]

Your round looks just right.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50454&d=1245298989

Bill

[cbrick]

No attachment, it only says to contact the administrator.

Ok great, your good to go. Use your new die on the 503's & slap felix in the grooves & load'em up.

I think I would order pach's for that gun anyway. Get them from Midway and if they don't fit correctly Midway will take them back. It really will make a huge difference in grouping. I've wondered for years why a single action has to have such tiny grips, I figure the originator had tiny hands? :veryconfu I have big hands too and have no choice but to change out the grips, they're ugly but what a difference in shooting. Some folks refuse to use the Pachs because they are ugly, seems they would rather "look good" than shoot good.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Rick, I've been scouring the Internet for an hour looking for a set of pachmyre grips for a colt SAA.
Pachmyre themselves don't list one on their site.
I did find an vintage set of pachmyre grips on eBay that the poster claims are for a SAA, but I doubt here's much of a return policy with that.
I'm looking for hogue also. So far, just the pretty and painfull wood replacements.
I tried to call pachmyre, but they are now owned by Lyman, so I was on hold for 15 minutes at which point I hung up. I'll call hogue next and see if they want my business.

[MBTcustom]

Having another slow day at the day job.
I wanted to satisfy myself that all the chambers are consistent, so I busted out the layout blue and turned a steel rod that was an exact fit to the largest chamber and throat. Just blue the rod, slip on the cylinder, twist, remove, and file off the marks at high RPM with a needle file, then repeat till I had a perfect rendering of the largest chamber.
I tried it in the others, and it stopped 1/4"-1/2" short on the other five chambers.
I went ahead and got out the 600 grit diamond lapping compound, and worked all the chambers down till the lap would fit all of them.
Of course, this removes most of the problem material, but the lap is effected by the compound as well, so I went through the whole process again, made another lap, then got out the 800 grit Cloverleaf compound.
I really juiced it up this time, and worked in a criss cross pattern between the chambers till they all took the lap the same way.
Afterwards, I checked them with pin gauges, and they were indiscernible from eachother for the most part.
I found out what was causing the "clicking" cartridges last night. The chambers were not properly aligned with the throats and the boolit was hitting the edge of the throat and "clicking" as it jumped into it.
The good news is that the lapping unitized the chambers with the throats for the most part except for that biggest one that the lap was patterned after.
I am having devious thoughts of making a new cylinder for this rascal from scratch and getting it right. The throats on this cylinder and the other one look like they were cut with a twist drill. Fortunately, the lapping took off the high spots, but I was careful not to go too far on the throats. I'm still hovering right at .433 and change on them.
The dummy cartridge dunks in each chamber with gravity now, even though I only took out a few ten-thousandths of an inch . It's amazing what a good, accurate, perfectly aligned finish will do for you!

I'm pretty confident that what I have now is a significant improvement over what I had last night.
It's got a fighting chance now.

I'm not going to worry about cylinder gap right now. If I can get reasonable accuracy with this, then I'm going to be really happy. Reasonable accuracy to me is a 4" group at 75 yards, and I don't think I can even shoot that well with a magnum pistol like this. We'll see.

Next time I get into a revolver, I'm going to know darn well and good what to be looking for I'll tell you that!

[cbrick]

Probably all good for the gun but now ya need a new size die to keep the 503's snug like they were, hope ya didn't already go ahead and size all of them. :roll: The RCBS's will now be a tad smaller but I would shoot'em anyway. You also now need a mold that casts .433"+ cause you can't afford me. [smilie=1: Dunno if Miha has any of them left, doubt it but it wouldn't hurt to check.

On the bright side you were getting the nervous dribbles over shooting a groove diameter boolit, now you'll be at .001"+ and you can save money on the toilet paper. :mrgreen:

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Well I don't know Rick. I was pretty shocked when I found out that the chambers themselves were cattywampus to the throats and I figured that having consistent fit of the cartridges, and getting those boolit delivered to the barrel unmolested was pretty important on the list of priorities.
I just don't see how that could happen when the chamber is out of alignment with the throats by almost .001.
Now at least, that problem is reduced to near nothing and the chambers are more aligned.
Fortunately, I was able to do this and only take a small amount out of the throats. A .433 gauge pin would start tightly before, and now it slips through but .434 won't even start.
I didn't clean up the throats all the way, but I did knock out the high spots.
I think it was worth doing in the long run.
As far as the molds go, I'm going to have to get one eventually anyway, so I might as well get all the smithing out of the way first so I'm sure about what size I need. I can't match the gun to the mold.
Gotta get the gun right, then buy the right mold.
Oh, and I only sized two of your boolits. The rest are still good to go.

[cbrick]

Yes, I agree it's probably good for the gun. Straight and aligned is a very good thing plus you'll now have boolits at .001"+ over groove diameter, another good thing I think.

Now that you've done all this to the new cylinder how close is the cylinder timing when it's cocked and locked to fire? Tim would be a very unhappy camper if it's off and spits lead don't ya think?

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Yes, I agree it's probably good for the gun. Straight and aligned is a very good thing plus you'll now have boolits at .001"+ over groove diameter, another good thing I think.

Now that you've done all this to the new cylinder how close is the cylinder timing when it's cocked and locked to fire? Tim would be a very unhappy camper if it's off and spits lead don't ya think?

Rick

Yes. There would be ashes on the head. Tearing of clothes. Fierce wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I need to find a way to see down the barrel and into the throats. Unlike a S&W that gives you a lovely dot of light centered right in the middle of the chamber, this one has a firing pin that is onboard the frame so I can't really get any good light in there so I can see what's going on.
I may have to make a gauge, or make a spanner to remove the firing pin.
Oh well. I'll figure it out later. If it's off, then I'll fix the timing next.
However, I inspected the frame around he barrel and the ends of the throats after firing it, and I saw uniform blast patterns all around both. That's no real measure, but I have seen where a gun out of time would favor one side of the gun with more fowling than the other.

[dubber123]

I'm not sure how much room there is between the recoil shield and the rear of the cylinder, but I have taken a strip of bright white paper and slid it between the two, and then focused a bright flashlight in the gap, makes a view down the bore pretty easy.

[cbrick]

Ok, you've had all weekend so how does that revolver shoot now?

Curious minds just gotta know.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Sorry Rick. Didn't have the time. Had to do a bluing run.

[btroj]

Curiosity killed the cat, or so they say. I was just surprised to hear that there was a cat on Mars......

[cbrick]

So Tim piddled away the whole weekend and left us all hanging wondering how all those revolver mods worked out. :roll: Guess there will be more weekends. [smilie=1:

Rick

[btroj]

So Tim piddled away the whole weekend and left us all hanging wondering how all those revolver mods worked out. :roll: Guess there will be more weekends. [smilie=1:

Rick

He has had all day to reply and nothing?

At some point he is just blowing you off.

[cbrick]

Yep, looks that way. Oh well, I tried. Time to move on.

Rick

[btroj]

Sigh.

[Sweetpea]

:popcorn:

We're waiting...

[MBTcustom]

I work two jobs fellers.
I get to the fun stuff as I get time. Unfortunately, this project is about 59th on my priority list. Maybe I can get some time with it this weekend.
The good news is that I did get a better "grip" put on it. See this pistol was originally brought to me to have a bigger grip fashioned for it. I had fabricated a new grip frame, but I traded for it before I could finish the grips.
I dug out that frame and screwed it in place and hacked together some "beaver chewed" grips out of some orange color wood I had laying around. It looks like an absolute dog turd, but man what a grip! I spent exactly 20 minutes on it, and that's about what it looks like too, but it will do for a test run. I am almost 100% certain that it will need to be modified, but it's good enough to get me out there, and it's a darn sight better than that dinky 2 1/2 finger grip that was on there to start with.

The weekend isn't looking too good right now, but we'll see if I can make it out to the range. Gotta move some guns through the shop, and it's just time consuming, that's all there is to it.

[btroj]

Two jobs? That's all?

Just make sure to make some time for yourself too. All work, no play makes Tim a dull boy......

[Sweetpea]

And as much as you need "Tim" time, your family needs your time as well...

Trust me, we know how it goes, just anxious to see this project come together for you!

Brandon

[MBTcustom]

Today I got up at 5:30
checked the website
Hit the road 6:00
got to work 6:45
left on lunch break to get my phone transferred (old one died)
left for home at 5:00
got home at 5:45
Vacuumed the mess of styrofoam my daughter decided to bless me with in the living room.
Ran to the shop and straightened it up a little and swept the floor.
Client showed up at 6:20 and dropped off 5 guns
Ran inside and ate dinner 6:45
Back out to the shop and found a blemish on the Mauser I blued Sunday (it was a sign I tell ya)
lit the bluing tanks at 7:00
Buffed out the Mauser and reblued it. (hello 9:15)
went back inside and wiped it down carefully and inspected the work. (spectacles, testicles, wallet, watch. Yea verily this rifle is very good)
Got the sight hood back on it (what a bear!) and laid out the rear sight for reassembly.
9:30 whoa, time sure flies! Update the books, kill the lights, lock the shop.
Back inside, Wife and daughter are sawing logs in bed. I made coffee for tomorrows morning commute, and cleaned up the kitchen and put up the leftovers.
Man I'm about to drop. Not quite there yet. Back to the computer and light up cast boolits. 10:00
I'm gonna crash before 11:00 or it'll be hell to pay tomorrow.

44 magnum? This is the first time it's crossed my mind today.
How very remiss of me. It was a slow day and everything.
lol!

[btroj]

Don't ignore time for the family, they are the most important thing you have. But you already knew that.

Tim, I have a huge amount of respect for guys who work that hard to make things work. I also am blessed to have a job where I can work my 42 to 45 hours a week and make a good living.

[MBTcustom]

We all just tryin to survive Brad.
personally, I wouldnt have it any other way! (If I would rather, I could have it another way actually)
A guy like me needs to be rollerscating uphill all the time. Hell, its the Malcolm family motto! In Ardua Tendit!
LOL!
I'll get some time to work on the loads here soon. Just gotta clear some elbow room right now.

I was just absolutely fried last night.

[btroj]

On the other hand, there is this rainbow colored 4 x 4...........

Tim, you have my respect. That was a long day and I have a feeling that is pretty normal.

[DougGuy]

Sounds like you have the cylinder dimensions sorted in fine style, I did my .44 almost the same way, used a .432" boolit for a gage and honed until it was a drag fit in all holes. You know it takes the flyers down considerably when they are consistent diameter. The other thing I did with mine is use a softer alloy, 50/50+2% and it took a liking to the boolit right away. Shooting great groups with no leading, what's not to like about no more j words?

[MBTcustom]

Mom
Shooting great groups with no leading, what's not to like about no more j words?

Well other than the blatantly unpatriotic way you refuse to stimulate the local economy......nothing.

[DougGuy]

Huh??

Ok let me fix that.. I did stimulate the economy of a few forum members in buying cast boolits, made in usa..

[MBTcustom]

Sorry Doug. That was supposed to be sarcasm, but I forgot the purple LOL!

[btroj]

See what happens when you leave my thread.......

[DougGuy]

Well, do you think we might get a pic or two along with the range report? 4 pages of posts, and by now some of us are just plain curious..

[MBTcustom]

Definitely. I expect a plethora of belly laughs when you see the crazy looking grips its wearing now too. LOL!
Sgt.mike came over and saw what I did to it. Told me it was ugly as sin, and that I jacked it up! I told him that I didnt build it for good looks. Shut up and point it!
He said he agreed it points good, and should give a lot of control.
Like so many things, if you can muscle your way past the gag reflex, all sorts of possibilities open up!

[MBTcustom]

Alright fellers. Here is the grip that I made for my 44. Before any of you go vomiting over the supreme ugliness of it, please understand that it's just a prototype and I'm not going to spend a ton of time on making it pretty till I'm sure it's form is functional. So far, I can tell you that it's a big step up from the dinky little 2 1/2 finger SAA grip that came with the gun.
96752

I have loaded three different ammunitions for this pistol and will be trying them out Saturday. All were loaded with 19gr of 2400, Starline brass, and CCI primers.

The first load was cbricks RCBS boolits. I made 20 of them. These boolits will drop through the cylinder throats with hesitation.

The second load was my own modified Lyman 429421. I made 45 of them. These boolits will not drop through the cylinder throats but light pressure from a pencil will make them slip through.

The third load is the boolits that were given me by (the name of the member I can't remember[smilie=b:) I made 20 of them. These boolits will not go through the throats even with substantial pressure from behind.
96745

I'm hoping to learn something Saturday. I have a pile of ammo for my 45-70 also.

[Sweetpea]

Doesn't look near as bad as you claimed, but it looks like it could cause damage when "rolling" with recoil!

[btroj]

For a minute I thought he got the grip from a hi point........

Ok Tim, how did they shoot?

[DougGuy]

The back of it almost takes the curve/shape of a Redhawk. Far as boolits not going through the chamber throats, if they are fairly hard, they might not do all that well but in a softer alloy, you would never know it.

[Sweetpea]

For a minute I thought he got the grip from a hi point........

Ok Tim, how did they shoot?


Geez, Brad, he'd have to be quite a bit further east for it to be Saturday already...

[MBTcustom]

Geez, Brad, he'd have to be quite a bit further east for it to be Saturday already...

We have to cut the northerners some slack.

[btroj]

Geez, Brad, he'd have to be quite a bit further east for it to be Saturday already...

I thought he was good.......

[Sweetpea]

Slight difference between being good, and pure sorcery...

[btroj]

From what I hear about his work there is sorcery involved

[MBTcustom]

Sorcerer is just an ancient word referring to a craftsman, scientist, engineer, who was darn good at putting all disciplines together into one practical application.

[btroj]

Well, that pretty well sums it up from what I hear. LL would certainly agree.

[Sweetpea]

The Sorcerer always claims there is no black magic, or dark arts involved...

Move along, nothing to see here...

These aren't the droids you're looking for...

[MBTcustom]

OK, I just went and shot the loads.
First thing I want to say is that that grip is getting changed! Lord that was vicious. The angle on the back is all wrong, and I need to make it more vertical. It was extremely painful to shoot albeit much more controllable than the original grip.

The first load I tried was my modified 429421. I didn't know what to expect because even though the boolits were the perfect size for the cylinder throats, they were sized on my Lyman 450 which has a bad habbit of smearing the boolit to the right. If there is any more than .001 to take size down, then it's going to make lopsided boolits, and these were no exception.
This group was fired at 35 yards offhand.
96839

Next I tried cbricks RCBS boolits. I didn't know what to expect because they were slightly undersized and would fall through the throats most of the time, but other than that, they were of course the picture of perfection. Turns out they did as well or better than my own.
96840

Last, I tried the boolits with the blue lube that were given to me by a member here. They were superbly manufactured almost as well as cbricks, but they were oversized and could not be pushed through the throats. The accuracy with these was dismal, although, at this point, my hand was hurting so bad, some of that could have been me.
96841

On another note, I took out the Arisaka bubba rifle I built and shot it at the same distance offhand and almost shot a personal best offhand group of all time. Just had that one flier.
Five shots at 35 yards:
96842
Here's the rifle:
96843
96844

[btroj]

I think I would be sizing to whatever Rick used. The gun seems to have a strong preference.

Sorry to hear about those lovely grips! Pain is never conducive to small groups.

[MBTcustom]

I think I will reload with both #1 and #2 and shoot from sandbags........after I modify these killer grips!

[btroj]

Ummm, killer grips are usually called that because the look killer, not because they kill the hands.

Learning about what makes good grips now too are we? I have never made grips but can imagine that poor designs would be very tough on the hands.

Good results Tim. You are a learning. That counts for something!

[cbrick]

See how the grip comes up under and behind the trigger guard with these Pachs on the FA? This will turn that 44 into a ***** cat. Look at the angle of the rear of your new grips, that's where your vertical stringing is probably coming from.

Off hand? Your kidding right? I can't speak for you but I can assure you that I am not nearly a good enough off hand shooter to determine the difference between two loads and which one might be better by shooting off hand. Yes, by all means bench that revolver. 50 yard shooting will tell you more about the loads and grouping and 100 is better yet.

Use your new Star to size, it will size more concentrically than an in & out sizer.

I take it you didn't shoot the 503's, the ones that actually fit correctly? You didn't mention any leading after shooting three different boolits? Any?

Also I can't speak to how well 2400 will group, I haven't used 2400 in 25 years or more but lot's of folks seem to like it. I've been saving it to send on up to Elmer to use in that big range in the sky.

Rick

96847

[MBTcustom]

See how the grip comes up under and behind the trigger guard with these Pachs on the FA? This will turn that 44 into a ***** cat. Look at the angle of the rear of your new grips, that's where your vertical stringing is probably coming from.

Just what I was thinking, and it certainly let me know it too!

Off hand? Your kidding right? I can't speak for you but I can assure you that I am not nearly a good enough off hand shooter to determine the difference between two loads and which one might be better by shooting off hand. Yes, by all means bench that revolver. 50 yard shooting will tell you more about the loads and grouping and 100 is better yet.

If I was kidding I would have typed it in purple LOL!
This was purely informal, and there was no bench nor sandbags to rest on. Just four of us fellers parked our trucks in the middle of a big field and put up some targets. I figured I'd take the opportunity to get a feel for the ol girl. I loaded the RCBS, the 429421 and the blue lubed boolits because I had extra of all of those, and besides they were lubed. I wanted to see what the effect was between the three sizes of boolits. Interesting!

Use your new Star to size, it will size more concentrically than an in & out sizer.

Tell me about it! I can't wait to see what it will do.

I take it you didn't shoot the 503's, the ones that actually fit correctly? You didn't mention any leading after shooting three different boolits? Any?

No. I knew I wouldn't have sandbags, and I didn't want to waste them. I figured that this test that I did today would settle a few things in my mind, like the grip issue, whether or not there was accuracy potential with 19gr or 2400 or not, and where exactly the pistol likes it's boolits sized.
There was no leading whatsoever with my boolits, and yours weren't too shabby either. I checked the barrel again a couple hours ago, and there are some streaks in the barrel, but it doesn't amount to anything. I'd call it a NO for leading.

Also I can't speak to how well 2400 will group, I haven't used 2400 in 25 years or more but lot's of folks seem to like it. I've been saving it to send on up to Elmer to use in that big range in the sky.

Rick

96847

Thanks for all the advice!

[runfiverun]

Tim that little filler between the trigger guard and the grips is a life saver.
it takes so much whack out the recoil, feeling is really cut in half.
it still allows the revolver to roll up in the hand, only not as much [and stops the knuckle rapping] this helps the vertical stringing too.

[mpbarry1]

interesting grips! my redhawk doesnt pinch me too bad, but i wonder if they make these grips for a RH?

[MBTcustom]

Tim that little filler between the trigger guard and the grips is a life saver.
it takes so much whack out the recoil, feeling is really cut in half.
it still allows the revolver to roll up in the hand, only not as much [and stops the knuckle rapping] this helps the vertical stringing too.

Yep, I'm sure it's just all that and a bag of chips. If I knew where I could purchase such a thing for a SAA, I would stab my money in sombodies pocket, and get them on the way here. The only reason I am messing with this custom grip in the first place is that I already had it blanked out and I can't find a set of pachmyres for sale from any of my normal gettin places. I even looked at their website and got no assurance that they even make such a critter.
If any of you fellers know where to buy one of these, I sure would apreciate a link! Barring that, I'm going to just make a few tweeks to what I have going here and see if I can get it to work. I think I was close. just need a slight change to the geometry.

[44man]

The truth! Shoot from the bench.
The .44 is not a crisis and you can shoot any boolit that matches twist with velocity from groove size to throat size. Over throat size gains you NOTHING-zero-zip.
I shoot many boolits from mine, old SBH with .4324" throats and .430" grooves. One is .430" and another is .432", both do 3/4" at 50 yards. This old Ruger has never shot as good as a SRH or a SBH Hunter that have done 1/2" at 50 meters. All of my S&W 29's did 1/2".
My .430" boolit shot a group of 1-5/16" at 200 yards and with a scope all my .44's would hit beer cans at 200 from bags. So even though it is hard to get under 3/4" at 50, the silly old SBH gun has shot groups at 200 that don't make sense. I just will never sell it.
The SRH is unreal, I don't like the RH.
You just need cylinder play so the boolit ogive going into the forcing cone pulls the cylinder, forget the throats. The Keith can't do it unless VERY HARD. The nose touches nothing and the little shoulder gets wiped away. The boolit will wear a tight gun off center as will ANY bullet/boolit with a dead tight cylinder. The Keith needs a perfectly aligned cylinder and bore.
Jack Huntington makes super accurate guns and those I have shot have more cylinder play then Ruger's or BFR's. Many gripe about the movement but do not understand it is there for a reason. It is barely felt, leave it alone.
Rick is always right, an IHMSA shooter like I was. Get a filler behind the trigger guard. Pachmeyer grips are all I use but Uncle Mikes on the BFR's are the same.
Many custom, pretty grips are a feely thing but can ruin accuracy and give you pain so you flinch.
You can make a grip sensitive to how you hold and make POI walk all over.
For me at least, the Bisley grip is the worst thing ever for the .44 mag and up.
I still hear the "roll" junk, worst thing EVER. Any gun must be held tight, from .22 up. Watch the best steel shooters, veins bulge from the hold on a 1911.
Slippery grips are death to accuracy. I get a kick out of experts splitting their heads from a revolver with a Bisley or getting skin rubbed off their palms from rubber. Many need gloves because the grips are wrong. Not much help. I need no gloves and hate them when hunting in the cold.

[44man]

Yep, I'm sure it's just all that and a bag of chips. If I knew where I could purchase such a thing for a SAA, I would stab my money in sombodies pocket, and get them on the way here. The only reason I am messing with this custom grip in the first place is that I already had it blanked out and I can't find a set of pachmyres for sale from any of my normal gettin places. I even looked at their website and got no assurance that they even make such a critter.
If any of you fellers know where to buy one of these, I sure would apreciate a link! Barring that, I'm going to just make a few tweeks to what I have going here and see if I can get it to work. I think I was close. just need a slight change to the geometry.
Never, ever let a revolver "roll" up in your hand. Coming down from recoil should have your hand in the same position as when you picked up the gun.
Go to Midsouth for grips.

[MBTcustom]

44Man, I really appreciate your advice, and that of cbrick. I consider you guys the authority on this subject here on castboolits.

Now, I know I'm not the sharpest tack in the drawer. I'm a rifle guy, and I have never delved into pistols this far before. That said, I am looking for a Pachmayre grip for a Colt SAA and hoping it will be close enough fit that I can make it work.
I can find no such product anywhere. I am ready, wallet in hand, to stab some money in somebodies pocket for a grip that will work, but I can't find it!
I just searched Midsouth again for that grip, and all they offer is DA grips in Hogue or Pachmayre.
You guys keep telling me the same thing over and over, but you're not listening when I say I can't find those grips!!!
That's why I'm hacking something out of wood and steel to get to the same place. That's the best I can do to follow your advice.
Please help a brother out! if you have a part number for a rubber grip, I will buy it immediately and not give it a second thought.
Uncle Mikes hasn't made grips since a few years after the turn of the century.

If no such thing is available then I'm going to have to do it the hard way. One of the reasons I didn't get all serious about the loads is because I figured that this grip would either be the cats meow, or it would suck rocks. Turns out it sucks rocks and it freakin hurts to shoot. I can't help that the gun rolls in my hand when I pull the trigger and that bump under the hammer was pummeling the web of my hand something awful. It wouldn't have mattered if I were on a bench. The grip is so bad, I need to modify it in order to continue. I think I'll make a spacer for under the trigger guard to get my finger out of there.

[MBTcustom]

Maybe I should just sell this darn thing and buy a Ruger SBH.

[cbrick]

Isn't there someone on the forum that makes grips? I'm having a mental block and can't think of the name. I've seen some photo's here & they were the best looking lumber I ever seen on a revolver. No idea what that might cost but it's gotta be better than a revolver that ya can't shoot.

Rick

[btroj]

Maybe I should just sell this darn thing and buy a Ruger SBH.

Or a Super Redhawk. Either way you are getting a gun that will last forever. And ever. And ever.

[mpbarry1]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?7265-philthephlier Ken highly recommends this gentleman.

[PWS]

They're not a current item but old Pachmayr grips for the SAA show up on eBay now and then.

[MBTcustom]

Sweetpea is the man!!!
He PMed me this:
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/cosiacarblch.html
I'm so happy, oh so happy!
I ordered that baby!

[PWS]

Well..., I gladly stand corrected!

[btroj]

No more excuses Tim. Make that gun shoot. Well, or have Rick make it shoot.....

[MBTcustom]

The google-fu must be extremely strong with that one. I've been trecking all over the internet looking for that item. There it sat the whole time! for $14.99 no less! ha HA!!!

[Sweetpea]

Tim, I'm gonna level with you...

I did a search, and it was about the third item down on the list...

Google seems to pull up different things for different people.

Brandon

[Sweetpea]

I also found some on e-bay, but I figured the 14.99 price for a guaranteed sale was probably worth it...

[MBTcustom]

Well, I told you I wasn't the sharpest tack in the drawer. Thanks for proving me right.
LOL!
I trolled Google two pages deep looking for that. I found one on e-bay a couple weeks ago, but it wasn't in the original package, and I couldn't find hide mor hair of them anywhere else, so I figured it must have been a SBH grip that was miss-marked.
Whichever. I'm just thrilled that you were able to find this for me. Thanks again.

[44man]

96988
44Man, I really appreciate your advice, and that of cbrick. I consider you guys the authority on this subject here on castboolits.

Now, I know I'm not the sharpest tack in the drawer. I'm a rifle guy, and I have never delved into pistols this far before. That said, I am looking for a Pachmayre grip for a Colt SAA and hoping it will be close enough fit that I can make it work.
I can find no such product anywhere. I am ready, wallet in hand, to stab some money in somebodies pocket for a grip that will work, but I can't find it!
I just searched Midsouth again for that grip, and all they offer is DA grips in Hogue or Pachmayre.
You guys keep telling me the same thing over and over, but you're not listening when I say I can't find those grips!!!
That's why I'm hacking something out of wood and steel to get to the same place. That's the best I can do to follow your advice.
Please help a brother out! if you have a part number for a rubber grip, I will buy it immediately and not give it a second thought.
Uncle Mikes hasn't made grips since a few years after the turn of the century.

If no such thing is available then I'm going to have to do it the hard way. One of the reasons I didn't get all serious about the loads is because I figured that this grip would either be the cats meow, or it would suck rocks. Turns out it sucks rocks and it freakin hurts to shoot. I can't help that the gun rolls in my hand when I pull the trigger and that bump under the hammer was pummeling the web of my hand something awful. It wouldn't have mattered if I were on a bench. The grip is so bad, I need to modify it in order to continue. I think I'll make a spacer for under the trigger guard to get my finger out of there.
So important and I am glad you found some grips. To show you I have an MOA in 7BR. Belonged to a friend and when at an IHMSA shoot he let me use it. I shot a 40. But my knuckle was beat to death, yeah, just a 7BR. The grip is close to a Bisley. He sold it to me. I hated the loop so sent for an open loop. WORSE. I went to my gunsmith friend, he gave me a hunk of stainless so I made a new lever with a smooth transition for my knuckle. Now I can shoot it all day with super accuracy. You see just the small change?

[TCLouis]

Lee 429 200 RNFP is where ya wanta be . .

Oh dang that was a group buy wasn't it

[PWS]

Lee 429 200 RNFP is where ya wanta be . .

Oh dang that was a group buy wasn't it

Get in on the current MiHec 433640 lightweight!

[white eagle]

awe shucks get both get the 265 and the 300

[cbrick]

Tim, you should NOT have ordered that grip. You are now completely out of excuses, it's one hole groups from now on or you have some splainin to do. :mrgreen:

Rick

[btroj]

Tim, you should NOT have ordered that grip. You are now completely out of excuses, it's one hole groups from now on or you have some splainin to do. :mrgreen:

Rick

Uh oh, someone called him out.......

Tim, I can't wait to see how much better this grip works. Tiny groups at 50 yards are in your future.

[MBTcustom]

The grip came in today.
It doesn't fit the pistol exactly right, but I think it's close enough because it's snug and tight. Sure feels good to the hand. Feels like I traded in a pair of wooden clogs for nike's!
Dig it:
97284
97285

[cbrick]

That is odd, must be because of the JP Suar and Sohn SAA clone. As long as it really is good & tight with zero wiggle you should be good. After all, your trying to shoot good not look good. Right? :mrgreen:

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Right.
There is no wiggle in the grips whatsoever. The only place it can move at all is in the very center of the backstrap. If I push right there, it feels a little cushiony like it's not plastered against the frame quite perfect. However, I can't move the grip up or down, side to side, or twist it at all, so I think it's good to go.
It's all an educated guess till you pull the trigger though.

Thanks again sweetpea for helping me locate these grips!

[Sweetpea]

Alright, Tim, get that thing back to the range!

[Sweetpea]

OK, Tim, this is the 2nd Saturday since you've had those grips...

Any updates?

[MBTcustom]

Ummmmm. Yes. I took it to the range.
I'm struggling to find a believable explanation for the large groups and the leaded barrel that allows me to look like a rockstar, but it's been a week and a half and I've got nothing.
So, the horrible truth is that I suck rocks with a handgun. LOL!

I am going to cast more boolits out of a harder alloy and add (gasp) 2% tin.
Unfortunately, I only get to shoot my own guns about once a month now, because most of my time is taken up working on other peoples firearms. I just get in a little personal time when I can. It makes working out a problem child like this a thousand yard crawl over broken glass in slow motion.
Sorry.

On a funner note, I am working out a deal that should leave me holding a Ruger SBH 10.5" which might me a little easier to get working than this little problem child has been.

[mpbarry1]

"So, the horrible truth is that I suck rocks with a handgun. LOL!"

^^ Welcome to my Sucks With A Handgun Team!

[MBTcustom]

"So, the horrible truth is that I suck rocks with a handgun. LOL!"

^^ Welcome to my Sucks With A Handgun Team!

And it's great to be here!
Tell me: Do you have jacket's?

[btroj]

No jackets, just an easily identifiable hanging of the head when done firing.

[cbrick]

Perhaps this 240 gr GC will improve your aim a little?

98226

Rick

[Groo]

Groo here
44man I have an MOA I got when they were in Dayton Oh. To say they are strong is an under statement.
My problem was the hammer cut my shooting glove, sent it to SSK for as arrester break which helped some.
But then it was in 350 Rem mag......

[MBTcustom]

Perhaps this 240 gr GC will improve your aim a little?

98226

Rick

Unfortunately, that boolit is about 140 grains too heavy to imrove my aim.
Lot's of things are becoming clearer to me. I had a S&W mod19 that was an absolute laser. I have outshot men with rifles with that gun. However, I had it loaded with these 200grain RN boolits over an absolutely anemic charge of unique. Any time I shot it with magnum loads, the accuracy was terrible and I couldn't hit jack. I always shrugged and figured the gun just didn't like magnum loads.
I am suddenly opening my mind to the possibility that I just don't know how to shoot pistols with heavy recoil.

This is really embarrassing to post this, but I am becoming more and more convinced that a lot of this is me (leading not withstanding).
I'm going to fix the leading issues I was having, but in the mean time, I need to read up on pistol shooting technique, and see if I can figure out how to hold a pistol. Maybe I have a flinch going on. Maybe I'm just squeezing the living heck out of it. I don't know, but what I do know is that I have almost never shot a decent group with a magnum pistol in my life. The only exception to this statement is two occasions where I was using someone else's pistol. Once with a S&W mod29 nickle plated beauty (just went everywhere I told it to go) and another time with an Italian monstrosity called a Meteba autoloading revolver. Other than that, nothing.
I think I need to get a load together that doesn't lead the barrel and go let Rick tell me what I'm doing wrong.

[tomme boy]

Tim, I shoot these out of my 44 SAA. http://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-429-214-swc.html

I can send you some if you want to try. They are a nice lite recoiling round. I use 9.0 gr of unique. I have a hard time shooting anything heavier as the grip is a little less than ideal.

[cbrick]

I'm going to fix the leading issues I was having.

You re-cut the crown, you did the throats. Have you taken a serious look at the forcing cone?


but in the mean time, I need to read up on pistol shooting technique, and see if I can figure out how to hold a pistol. Maybe I have a flinch going on. Maybe I'm just squeezing the living heck out of it.

Re-read the PM I sent you on grip. Remember the chicken? :mrgreen: No, the boolit does not exit the muzzle faster based on how hard you squeeze the grip. :roll: Flinch? Anything is possible but normally a flinch shows as low left on the target and the last groups you posted didn't show that.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Thanks Tommy Boy, I appreciate the offer, but I'm going to try to use what I've got here, and I'm going to learn to shoot high power pistol if its the last thing I do. I'm tired of sucking rocks with a magnum handgun.
I was tired of not being able to shoot a bow worth beans also, and I found somebody who could see what I was doing wrong and give a little constructive criticism and I was competing in the local 3d shoots and taking names in no time. Just got to get some basic shooting skills down pat.

[MBTcustom]

You re-cut the crown, you did the throats. Have you taken a serious look at the forcing cone?



Re-read the PM I sent you on grip. Remember the chicken? :mrgreen: No, the boolit does not exit the muzzle faster based on how hard you squeeze the grip. :roll: Flinch? Anything is possible but normally a flinch shows as low left on the target and the last groups you posted didn't show that.

Rick

That's true, come to think of it all my shots were high left. According to the sickeningly accurate correction target my shots are showing "Pushing (anticipating recoil) or no follow through".
I'm not sure what pushing is, but it sounds like another form of flinch?

[cbrick]

Yes, it's anticipating recoil. Your brain is telling you to get ready for this horrible monster in your hands but the simple truth is that the harder you squeeze the grip THE MORE of the recoil you will feel making anticipation even worse. Just relax with a mild grip and allow your hand and arms to follow through. You cannot defeat the recoil with a tighter grip, the tighter the grip the more it will beat you up, recoil wins & you loose. The more it beats you up the harder it is to make the next shot. Shooting is not a physical work out, it does not take muscles. That's why women that practice & want to be good shooters have an advantage over men, they by nature have better hand eye coordination than men and physical strength is not part of the equation. Shooting is a work out but it's a mental work out, not a physical one.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Yes, it's anticipating recoil. Your brain is telling you to get ready for this horrible monster in your hands but the simple truth is that the harder you squeeze the grip THE MORE of the recoil you will feel making anticipation even worse. Just relax with a mild grip and allow your hand and arms to follow through. You cannot defeat the recoil with a tighter grip, the tighter the grip the more it will beat you up, recoil wins & you loose. The more it beats you up the harder it is to make the next shot. Shooting is not a physical work out, it does not take muscles. That's why women that practice & want to be good shooters have an advantage over men, they by nature have better hand eye coordination than men and physical strength is not part of the equation. Shooting is a work out but it's a mental work out, not a physical one.

Rick

That makes sense. That's exactly how I shoot a rifle, just pull it in and roll with it. You're right, you can't beat recoil.
Next time, I'll try forcing myself to relax and take a steadier hold.........and I'm working on cocking the gun with my left thumb.

[jmort]

"All the grip techniques that we discussed here are good up to about a 200 power factor. Now we are going to take this Smith and Wesson 500 Magnum with a 640 power factor and show you the grip technique that I use to shoot this. One of the key things that I do different when I shoot a power factor this heavy, I want to get the revolver a little bit higher in my hand and the reason for that is if I get it down really too low, its going to beat me up. So I’m going to let the gun torque a little bit and let it jump. I’m going to have the revolver just a little bit higher, about half an inch, grab it just like I did the other revolvers, and pull it straight back." Jerry Miculek

[mpbarry1]

Jerry Muculek is amazing.

[TXGunNut]

I used to be a pretty decent pistol shot after more than a few years shooting PPC with a little of other disciplines now and then just for fun. I quit shooting comp over ten years ago so some days I pretty much suck rocks as well. One thing I've recently discovered with SA revolvers is that I often shoot them better one-handed using a stance I learned while shooting outdoor (bullseye) pistol. Two-handed pistol shooting is a fairly recent development, somedays the old ways work better.

[44man]

All of you forget a nasty habit! Flinch is bad of course but even as bad is pulling the trigger as the sights pass through the target. Nobody can hold still so sights move all around the target. The first thing a guy will do is mash the trigger when the sight is moving through the target. That shot will almost always be high or high left. It is a complete loss of trigger control.
The best and fastest shooters still have trigger control that is smooth, practice with millions of rounds. They can break a trigger without moving the gun.

[cbrick]

I haven't gotten into trigger control with Tim yet because from all appearances he is a pretty fair rifle shooter, as such he must know something about trigger control or he wouldn't hit anything with a rifle either. :mrgreen: From several things he has said about revolver shooting I think the biggest problem he is having is grip, rather common with new magnum revolver shooters I think.

Rick

[44man]

That is true about grip. You know how I feel about the grip and how it is held.
Rick, being an old IHMSA shooter I know you understand that but the man might still be trying to make the gun shoot as it moves through the target.
The very hardest thing to teach is to let the gun move with how your body can hold and just add trigger pressure only until the gun fires. You might not be on target but you should call the shot and the group size will shrink. Once I seen what I was doing, I came down to 6" at 100 yards or less depending on the day. Actually shot 3/4" at 100 once.
I was a victim of pulling the trigger too.
Some rifles I just can't control off hand after shooting 1/2" groups from the bench. The gun can not be held still enough and that stupid yank the trigger stuff is there. Other rifles just lay on target as I add pressure. My .54 Hawken is one and my Swede I customized is another. But I just can't control a Springfield rifle I customized for a friend because he bought a pre cut stock. It is FIT! Rifles are no better because some wave all around while another is steady.
I was shooting my Swede and had a can at 100 yards. I shot at it off hand and it did not move. I shot again and it still did not move. When I went to get the paper target, this is what I found. 98523

[cbrick]

the man might still be trying to make the gun shoot as it moves through the target.

Very true. I call that "The NOW syndrome". Sights and target coming together and the brain scrreams NOW resulting in a very sudden hard jerk on the trigger and a guaranteed miss. :mrgreen: Sure glad I don't do that . . . [smilie=1: yeah, right.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

I am listening to everything you guys are saying.

I understand about follow through, sight picture, and trigger control. That doesn't mean that I don't have some deeply engrained bad habbits that I am unaware of (in fact, I guarantee I do) I've already been through this with archery and emerged exceedingly triumphant......after a lot of practice with someone who could see what I was doing wrong and call me on it.

When I was setting up for the shot:
I thumbed back the hammer
Got my grip in place
Wrapped my left hand around the right
Pushed the gun into the bags
Acquired sight picture
Slipped my finger onto the trigger just behind the pad of my finger, but not in the crook
Breathed easy
Half out and hold it
4 seconds
Focus focus focus. front sight, target in peripheral, front sight.
Squeeze (oh ****e, here it comes!)
Bang!!!
Follow through till the gun comes to rest back on the bags.
Shake it off
Set up the next shot.

That's what I'm thinking as I shoot. I never paid much attention to my grip consistency so it is very possible that I was inadvertently changing with every shot.
I am NOT used to throwing lightning bolts (kind of what shooting 44 feels like to me) and I could very well be anticipating the shot in spite of all my efforts. I think I'll go back to loading every other chamber and dry firing between shots to see if I can determine what I am doing wrong. That usually tells the tail.
Next time I'm at the range, I'll see if I can get a buddy to take pictures of me shooting. That should give you fellers all you need to spot what I'm doing wrong.

I got a new mold recently, a 250gr RN IDEAL design, and glory be, it drops .433! I loaded up some of those cast out of WD COWW + 2% tin. Yeah, I said TIN.
I also lubed up some of Ricks MP 503's and loaded them up.
I did some boolit pulling, and I believe my RCBS dies (I have two sets) were sizing the boolits inside the brass a little. I switched to the Redding set that I have (I thought that set was 44SPC only, so I have not been using that set, but taking a closer look revealed that it was 44special/mag so happy day and God bless us all every one) and loaded all the new ammo with that set.
I'll be watching like a hawk for leading, and I want to know when it happens and why.

[44man]

Very true. I call that "The NOW syndrome". Sights and target coming together and the brain scrreams NOW resulting in a very sudden hard jerk on the trigger and a guaranteed miss. :mrgreen: Sure glad I don't do that . . . [smilie=1: yeah, right.

Rick
YEAH! There it is in full glory. We are humans after all, none better then another and the work must be done even if it is just fixing a pipe. We all screw up and the way to be better is to see the mistakes.
I admit I still screw up.
The best friend I had at shoots had a billy club hanging from his tripod in case his shooter missed. I need someone with a big stick a lot of times.

[44man]

I am listening to everything you guys are saying.
Good man, we are not better, just recognize mistakes and go crazy to fix them.
It is NOT easy.
I have a small note book with what I do but if I had one with failures it would be a billion pages.
Been going nuts with an old chainsaw I have not run for years. Can't start it. I took it all apart to get the gas tank out and clean it. The filter looked good and clean on the outside. I cleaned the carb. It started but would only run with full choke. I took it back apart to find crud in the carb screen. Then I took the tank filter apart to find it packed inside solid. Why is it on the inside of the filter? Stihl 2 cycle oil is why. I have had a ton of problems with it. I am now using opti-2.
I missed the filter right from the start. I failed. But I will never forget it again.
Now ask me about a chain saw problem and I might help you.
Failure guys, it teaches.

[35 Whelen]

Tim,
I picked up one of these in 6 1/2" recently for no other reason than to use for trading material. Shot it a little with some.44 Sp loads and seemed reasonably accurate, but couldn't get interested in it probably because I've pretty much a dyed in the wool .44 Special guy. Anyhow....

My old man loaded up a bunch of .44 Mags at my suggestion with 10.0 grs. of Unique and some of my 429421's with the intention of shooting the old girl last weekend when he went to his brothers, but didn't get around to shooting them when he returned the revolver. So tonight after work I chronographed them (1150 fps) and hied off to the range out behind the shop to try a few. HOLY COW!! From a sitting position at 25 yds. this load gnawed a ragged 2" hole in the target. Reloading and moving my aim to my 50 yd. steel target, the resultant group, without measuring, appeared to be a little under 4"! Now the bad news....

During one of the cylinders-full the ejector rod housing went asunder. After the session I looked at it closely and found the ejector rod housing screw had sheared off. GPC is sold out, so I'm going to have to try to make something. Tim, could I trouble you to measure the thread and pitch of that screw? I don't have enough left of mine to really measure the pitch. The major diameter is right about .212" so assuming it isn't metric, it ought to be a #12, but I don't know if it's a 24 or 28 TPI.

Thanks for your help and good luck with yours!

35W

[MBTcustom]

Tim,
I picked up one of these in 6 1/2" recently for no other reason than to use for trading material. Shot it a little with some.44 Sp loads and seemed reasonably accurate, but couldn't get interested in it probably because I've pretty much a dyed in the wool .44 Special guy. Anyhow....

My old man loaded up a bunch of .44 Mags at my suggestion with 10.0 grs. of Unique and some of my 429421's with the intention of shooting the old girl last weekend when he went to his brothers, but didn't get around to shooting them when he returned the revolver. So tonight after work I chronographed them (1150 fps) and hied off to the range out behind the shop to try a few. HOLY COW!! From a sitting position at 25 yds. this load gnawed a ragged 2" hole in the target. Reloading and moving my aim to my 50 yd. steel target, the resultant group, without measuring, appeared to be a little under 4"! Now the bad news....

During one of the cylinders-full the ejector rod housing went asunder. After the session I looked at it closely and found the ejector rod housing screw had sheared off. GPC is sold out, so I'm going to have to try to make something. Tim, could I trouble you to measure the thread and pitch of that screw? I don't have enough left of mine to really measure the pitch. The major diameter is right about .212" so assuming it isn't metric, it ought to be a #12, but I don't know if it's a 24 or 28 TPI.

Thanks for your help and good luck with yours!

35W

Absolutely no problem! Let me go get it.

[MBTcustom]

The parts that hold on the ERH are a crew and a thread bushing.
I'll describe the screw first.
The head of the screw is .217 in diameter, and .280 long. The thread is a 6-40 (standard scope mount thread) and is .228 long. The overall length of the screw is .510 and the slot measures .033 in width.

The bushing is .180 long. The outside thread is 1/4-28 and only extends .125 (ie, the bushing isn't threaded all the way up. Thought it might be important to mention). The inside thread of the bushing is of course the same 6-40 as the screw.

The way my gun works is that the bushing is inserted in the underside of the ERH (unthreaded end first) and the screw is passed through the top and the two are married with red locktite. Once the two parts are thus joined, they function as one to secure the ERH to the barrel.

I hope this helps. I'm really sorry I can't post pictures, but my computer is in the shop, and I'm screwed till I get it back.

[35 Whelen]

Thanks Tim. Sounds like it was .y bushing that broke. I have a old lathe and a pitance of knowledge so maybe I can make a bushing out of a 1/4-28 bolt.
Thanks so much for your help!
35W

[MBTcustom]

You betcha. Holler if you need a hand or a tap or something. I have quite a few 6-40 taps that I will not use on a receiver again, but would be perfectly acceptable to tap a hole through the middle of a bolt (if it snaps, you're not out anything but a little time).

[35 Whelen]

Appreciate the offer. I have my Dad's old Beuhler scope base drilling jig and I'm almost positive there's a 6-40 tap in the kit.

35W