40 cal lever action

[zuke]

Is there such a beast? What about 9mm and 45 acp?

[btroj]

Marlin made a few in 41 mag. They also make 357 and 45 Colt models.

Those are pretty much 40, 9 mm, and 45 ACP just in different clothes.

[6pt-sika]

I had a couple Marlin 1895's that were pre 1900 one was in 40-65 and the other was a 40-82 .

[historicfirearms]

38 WCF is 40 cal.

[Outpost75]

93332

I have a Marlin 1894 which John Taylor converted to .45 ACP for me.

93330

93331

[missionary5155]

Greetings
How about a Marlin 336 in caliber .414 Supermag. Or a 336 Marlin in caliber .41-444 (.412 JES).
Did someone mention a Winchester 1895 in caliber .405 ?
Mike in Peru

[Kansas Ed]

Although tougher to find, the Winchesters 1886 in 40-70, and the 1895 in 40-72. And yes, the old 38-40 is probably my favorite 40 caliber levergun caliber.

Ed

[felix]

Mike, the Davidson's run of these in 41 mag would easily be converted to 414 because of the very, very generous freebore and magazine and bolt throw. I say this because the seating I've done for the mag can be long and the gun worked fine. ... felix

[zuke]

I'm asking about 40 S&W.
With all the cheap brass I thought there might be a fun gun to be had.

[DeadWoodDan]

I would love it if Rossi would make a .41 mag. I know others have expressed interest also.

[JHeath]

I'm asking about 40 S&W.
With all the cheap brass I thought there might be a fun gun to be had.

I think the basic question here is whether rimless pistol cartridge is possible in a tube-fed lever rifle. A 92 converted to 7.62x25 was recently the subject of a thread on this forum so it is possible. I looked (casually) into rimless conversions and it seems to require a lot of tinkering, with no OTS parts available for the mods.

I do not have a 92 at hand here but if the lever could be made to clear a pistol box mag, it would eliminate the tube mag/lifter issues. The tube could be replaced with a forearm hanger, and the bbl floated. But I don't think a box would clear the lever. Unless the lever could be reshaped and/or short-stroked somehow. If you do this, make a second kit to pay me for the idea . . .

[OverMax]

I doubt you'll see a factory 40-cal S&W lever rifle anytime soon. Although Ruger made a 44 mag levered rifle called the model 96. Could also digest 44 Specials which was handy for reduced target loads. A nice light and little 4 shot rifle now discontinued.

[TXGunNut]

38 WCF is 40 cal.

Thank you! My buddy was shooting his 92 today, has a nice pair of 1873's made in late 1880's as well. 92 had issues today but 21grs of FFg and a cast boolit lets these old rifles show us how it's supposed to be done!

[fcvan]

I don't see why a 40 S&W lever wouldn't be possible. A likely candidate for conversion would be a .357 as the rim size is very close. New barrel and some adjustments to fine tune feeding of the shorter cartridge and things should function well. I'd think there would be a shorter mag tube to keep capacity at 10 rounds for sale to CA and other such silly places.

I'd rather have a lever in 38-40 to go with my Vaquero that has an extra cylinder for 40 S&W. I have a Marlin in 41 mag and need a Ruger BlackHawk to go with it. Too bad they never made the vaquero in .41. Oh ya, a lever in 10mm would be way cool.

[robertbank]

While I would not discourage a manufacturer from making a .40S&W lever gun I am not sure where the market would be. Cowboy action is well served with the .38/347Mag and 45Colt carbines in various models. The .40cal would offer not a whole lot more than the .357Mag/.44Mag cartridges for hunting. I t seems to me it would be chasing a small niche market as a novelty rifle with no real home.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

You're in friendly AR-15 country with the 40 S&W. Check out Rock River Arms for upper units and mags to run them with.

[WilliamDahl]

I always thought that a .30-30 converted to a straight walled cartridge would make a good levergun cartridge.

[robertbank]

You're in friendly AR-15 country with the 40 S&W. Check out Rock River Arms for upper units and mags to run them with.

The Beretta Storm comes in .40cal. I have the 9MM version. Not sure why but maybe there is something to the Zombie thing...

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

I always thought that a .30-30 converted to a straight walled cartridge would make a good levergun cartridge.

Didn't do to bad in it's present form.

Take Care

Bob

[HighHook]

I always thought that a .30-30 converted to a straight walled cartridge would make a good levergun cartridge.

That's a 375 win also known as the 94 win big bore. Great cartridge btw

[BCRider]

In looking at the actions of the current pistol caliber lever actions the one I suspect which could be converted to one of the rimless semi auto handgun calibers is likely the 1873. The nature of the elevator block would handle the rounds with the degree of control needed and the handling does not rely on a rim for part of the case feeding like a '92 action.

But this would not be an easy modification. The extractor hook and extractor hook notch in the barrel would need to be altered a lot to reach down and hook the groove.

It would be pretty slick though. I suspect the full length tube would hold up around 15 or maybe more rounds. It would make for a great plinker.

Ideally it SHOULD be the slightly lighter and more compact Win 92 size. But I don't see that happening.

And besides, as mentioned already the traditional rimmed cartridges seem to be the choice for lever guns while the rimless cartridges are the food for semi auto pistol caliber carbines.

[zuke]

I'm looking for something that'll slip under the radar but still use cheap ammo.
I have 3/4 of a green garbage can full of 40 cal once fired brass going to the scrapper's come spring time.
I'm not worried about zombie's, so I don't want anything "tacticool"

[robertbank]

I'm looking for something that'll slip under the radar but still use cheap ammo.
I have 3/4 of a green garbage can full of 40 cal once fired brass going to the scrapper's come spring time.
I'm not worried about zombie's, so I don't want anything "tacticool"

If that is the case get yourself a CZ75B in .40cal and load it mild to wild. Great pistol and it will eat up those cases just fine.

Take Care

Bob

[Bonz]

I'm looking for something that'll slip under the radar but still use cheap ammo.
I have 3/4 of a green garbage can full of 40 cal once fired brass going to the scrapper's come spring time.

Why don't you post the brass for sale here for the members that don't have access to .40 S&W brass, especially if it is truly "once fired"

[zuke]

If that is the case get yourself a CZ75B in .40cal and load it mild to wild. Great pistol and it will eat up those cases just fine.

Take Care

Bob

Can't take a pistol into the wood's for a day's fun.

[zuke]

Why don't you post the brass for sale here for the members that don't have access to .40 S&W brass, especially if it is truly "once fired"

I'm North of your border

[Bonz]

I would definitely buy a .40 cal carbine. There are a lot of them out them. I have personally shot this model and it is a great shooter.

http://www.impactguns.com/jrc-40sw-black-17rd-threaded-jrc40gr15-tbbl-741459536978.aspx

[zuke]

I would definitely buy a .40 cal carbine. There are a lot of them out them. I have personally shot this model and it is a great shooter.

http://www.impactguns.com/jrc-40sw-black-17rd-threaded-jrc40gr15-tbbl-741459536978.aspx

Restricted up here because of barrel length

[Bonz]

Restricted up here because of barrel length

You can get .40 S&W carbines here with a 19" barrel or custom length

http://www.thureondefense.com/content/thureon-defense-ga-basic-carbine

[rbertalotto]

Yup, 38-40....A 180g bullet at 900fps............100 years later we have a NEW 40 S&W, 180g bullet at 900fps! Both are a .401 bullet. Winchester should have called it the "40-40"...

The 38-40 is a wonderful cartridge. Extremely clean as the brass is very thin and it really expands to seal the chamber. Many times I don't clean fired brass because I can't tell and difference from unfired.

If you shoot Black Powder, the 38-40 is just about perfect. Lots of smoke and BOOM, without the **** getting into your action.

In a modern 38-40 you can load it right up to serious DEER KILLING performance.

[Oreo]

1. The 40sw/10mm lever action would have a market in states like PA that do not allow hunting with semiautos of any kind. Someone like me who has all the supplies and equipment for 10mm could add a decent hunting carbine without having to gear up for a new caliber.

2. One problem with tube feeding 40sw/10mm auto is the lack of roll crimp which could induce boolit setback under recoil.

[seaboltm]

That's a 375 win also known as the 94 win big bore. Great cartridge btw

Or the original 38-55, which is a straight wall 30-30.

[9.3X62AL]

I always thought that a .30-30 converted to a straight walled cartridge would make a good levergun cartridge.

It surely does. I'm new to the ranks of 38-55 shooters, but the cartridge has been an unalloyed delight for me so far. Even at 1880s ballistics with plain-base castings, it delivers quite a THUMP downrange. Bullet weight and velocity of the 44 Magnum, and far better sectional density......what's not to like? Seems like a good venison-maker to me.

[JHeath]

While I would not discourage a manufacturer from making a .40S&W lever gun I am not sure where the market would be. Cowboy action is well served with the .38/347Mag and 45Colt carbines in various models. The .40cal would offer not a whole lot more than the .357Mag/.44Mag cartridges for hunting. I t seems to me it would be chasing a small niche market as a novelty rifle with no real home.

Take Care

Bob

I hear what you're saying but . . .

There's -- what? -- 20 or 30 million guys out there with semi-auto pistols in calibers they really like. Look at the current 1911 market. Stand at the pistol counter at Cabela's and watch all the guys that walk out with some kind of .45 acp, every one of them convinced that .45 acp is a really neat cartridge.

How many of them would be interested in a carbine? If it's 5% or 10%, that's a lot of carbines.

I think a lot of guys (like me) are put off by space-guns from planet Picatinny, or budget mall-ninja urban CQB SHTF neo-Matrix 3D printed anything with a pistol grip. Yes they are good carbines. No, I do not want one, like I do not want a Hummer. Interesting vehicle, but I do not want one.

Add up all the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp owners out there, offer them a Rossi '92 at $500 or whatever, and I think many thousands of them would bite.

That may not make ballistic sense, because the .357 or .44 is better for hunting, and the .45 Colt and .44-40 are for CAS. Yet there are all those guys walking out of gun shops with auto pistols, devoted to 9mm, .40, and .45acp.

Look back on this thread -- the OP specifically asks about .40 S&W, a modern auto pistol caliber owned by millions. The thread immediately veers off to .38-40, and ends up at .38-55. Nobody has an answer that remotely answers the OP, nor for the .45acp owners, nor the 9mm owners. And he's not the first guy that asked. That has "market" written all over it.

[btroj]

Those same leveraction makers are selling all they can make in the current calibers. Why change when they are selling well as is?

[Oreo]

That's like Sam Walton saying, "Why should I open another store when the one I got is doing so well?"

[JHeath]

Those same leveraction makers are selling all they can make in the current calibers. Why change when they are selling well as is?


!!!!! Well, yeah. Manufacturing cannot serve the current demand for most gun/ammo products. But that does not mean a rimless lever rifle would have no market. It means the manufacturing capacity is currently maxed out.

It's probably more profitable right now to churn out .22lr ammo than .243, but that does not mean there's no market for .243. Heck it's probably more profitable right now to make .22lr than toilet paper. If I owned a toilet paper factory, I should convert to making .22lr, even though there's a solid market for toilet paper too.

The demand for 1911s and SAAs has opened room for small manufacturers. Ditto ARs. There may be room for a smith to create a business converting Rossi 92s to rimless, but it would double the cost of the carbine. The real market (if it exists) would be for a factory-made product available where the average joe with a new carry permit buys his first .45 or .40.

[JHeath]

That's like Sam Walton saying, "Why should I open another store when the one I got is doing so well?"

Yeah, what Oreo said. It's better than what I wrote.

[robertbank]

I hear what you're saying but . . .

There's -- what? -- 20 or 30 million guys out there with semi-auto pistols in calibers they really like. Look at the current 1911 market. Stand at the pistol counter at Cabela's and watch all the guys that walk out with some kind of .45 acp, every one of them convinced that .45 acp is a really neat cartridge.

How many of them would be interested in a carbine? If it's 5% or 10%, that's a lot of carbines.

I think a lot of guys (like me) are put off by space-guns from planet Picatinny, or budget mall-ninja urban CQB SHTF neo-Matrix 3D printed anything with a pistol grip. Yes they are good carbines. No, I do not want one, like I do not want a Hummer. Interesting vehicle, but I do not want one.

Add up all the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp owners out there, offer them a Rossi '92 at $500 or whatever, and I think many thousands of them would bite.

That may not make ballistic sense, because the .357 or .44 is better for hunting, and the .45 Colt and .44-40 are for CAS. Yet there are all those guys walking out of gun shops with auto pistols, devoted to 9mm, .40, and .45acp.

Look back on this thread -- the OP specifically asks about .40 S&W, a modern auto pistol caliber owned by millions. The thread immediately veers off to .38-40, and ends up at .38-55. Nobody has an answer that remotely answers the OP, nor for the .45acp owners, nor the 9mm owners. And he's not the first guy that asked. That has "market" written all over it.


Well look at the millions, if they truly exist, that own .40cal pistols. Who are they? LEO types, CCW holders and security types. In Canada most would be IPSC shooter, Municipal Police and Provincial Conservation folks. They are the ones buying the carbines in .40cal. The Cowboy crowd aren't going to fall over the.40cal and the number who hunt with handguns are relatively few compared to hunters using Long Guns.

Sorry, one thing I have learned about the economic engines of N.A. is if a market exists where profits can be made some one will serve it. Therein lies the answer to the OP's question IMHO.

Take Care

Bob

[JHeath]

Well look at the millions, if they truly exist, that own .40cal pistols. Who are they? LEO types, CCW holders and security types. In Canada most would be IPSC shooter, Municipal Police and Provincial Conservation folks. They are the ones buying the carbines in .40cal. The Cowboy crowd aren't going to fall over the.40cal and the number who hunt with handguns are relatively few compared to hunters using Long Guns.

Sorry, one thing I have learned about the economic engines of N.A. is if a market exists where profits can be made some one will serve it. Therein lies the answer to the OP's question IMHO.

Take Care

Bob

Somebody has to recognize the market, and businessmen commonly overlook opportunities. There's a quote attributed to Henry Ford, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

A few years ago, people laughed at the idea of a market for home computers. Laboratories, universities, etc., but the average consumer had no conceivable use for a computer, so why build them? Some cocky young guys decided to create a market, that if the product was available, people who did not know they wanted a computer would decide to buy one.

There are an enormous number of civilian 9mm, .40, and .45acp owners out there, many of whom have multiple pistols and feel invested in a caliber. Not just LEOs. And when you say CCWs that includes a huge number of gun enthusiasts most of whom own many guns they don't "need". I have seen the "rimless lever rifle" question come up repeatedly, with no satisfactory answer. One poster above had John Taylor make a .45acp conversion. I think there's a potential market and for Rossi the cost of dipping their toe in the water would be very low compared to the potential payoff.

The 92 and Marlin 94 exist for handgun cartridges, to tap the market of handgun users. Most handgun users now have autopistols. A .45acp 92 sounds untraditional, but it's a natural combination. A Browning pistol/rifle combo. And it's a lot more conventional than outliers like the XP-100 or TC Contender, which created their own markets.

[btroj]

That's like Sam Walton saying, "Why should I open another store when the one I got is doing so well?"

Making a rifle in a new caliber when you are maxed out on manufacturing already is different.

Sam Walton didn't build a new distribution center just because a few customers didn't like the fact her didn't carry a specific size of a product. He was smart enough to know that he was making good money selling what he had and that increasing his distribution abilities was going to cost far more than the increased sales could justify.

It is far easier, and cheaper, for Marlin to make only 3 cartridges available in the 1894 than it is to introduce new ones. Fewer parts, fewer assembly lines, fewer labels and manuals. Production costs are kept down and that keeps profits up.

Stop thinking like a consumer and start thinking like a businessman. Helps if you work in retail and see the situations from the inside.

[Oreo]

Thinking like a business man, I see aartificially high cost of market entry for new manufacturers for many reasons which stifles free market principles of opportunity inducing supply. Whereas, existing manufacturers could do it with much less overhead cost if they were so inclined. I don't pretend to have any better idea of how existing manufacturers could maximize profit, so who knows what the key factors of their reasoning is.

[robertbank]

I am not arguing it wouldn't be a neat idea. But gun makers don't make guns because they love guns they make them to make money. The largest shooting sport in the world right now is Cowboy action with over 90K members and they aren't lobbying for another lever gun for their sport and the action shooting types along with the CCW crowd aren't buying lever guns they are buying semi auto carbines with high capacity to take on the Zombies, malcontents and their neighbours when then the SHTF so to speak.

The Contender didn't create long range handgun shooting they just came up with a better product to service that market. Elmer and the boys were doing it with handguns 90 years ago.

I am sure if there was sufficient interest ie larger market somebody would produce a lever in that caliber. As it is I am not at all sure the lever market is comparatively large to start with and adding yet another caliber along with an assortment of models is not likely on anyone's horizon. But maybe.

Take Care

Bob

[btroj]

Bob, that is exactly the point I am making. People complain that you can't find a 357 Marlin anywhere. Why? Because they are bought as soon as they are made.. Why change out the manufacturing line when you can't keep up with current demand?

I would love an 1894 in 32 HR but I know they won't be made ever again, not enough demand.

[robertbank]

Yes and add to that the fact firearms in general don't wear out quickly. My son has the .22LR I bought 52 years ago and it will shoot inside of 1/2" at 25 yards all day long. Cooey and Lakefield Arms both are gun now. Victims of their own ability to build a lasting quality product. Thousands of their bolt action .22LR rifles were made ($22.00 - $100 depending what year you bought one) and are still around killing gophers across Western Canada and squirrels in the East. They were entry level rifles back in the day. Today what sells for kids rifles are a mere shadow of those rifles. I am sure there are lots of them still in service in the US as well.

Take Care

Bob

[WilliamDahl]

Yes and add to that the fact firearms in general don't wear out quickly.

The original Ruger Mk-I semi-autos were used by the Iraq Air Force for training firearms for their officers. They had firearms with over 1M rounds fired through them that had never had a problem. I have a Mk-II and I have no idea how many rounds that I've put through it without a problem. Back when .22LR bricks were cheap, it was not uncommon for us to shoot a 500-round brick (or two) shooting at cans and such on a visit to the local dump.

[zuke]

I feel like I've unleased a dragon.
But I'd still like to find a lever action in 9/40/45

[JHeath]

Ruger has now reduced the calibers available in the No. 1. But when Ruger introduced the No. 1 in 1967, did conventional thinking predict the gun market really needed a Farquaharson-inspired falling block rifle?

"The cynic sees the cost of everything, and the value of nothing."

A good businessman looks at potential benefits where others do not see them. If he only looks at down-sides, he'll never accomplish anything.

It's easier to list reasons against manufacturing the No. 1, the XP-100, the Contender, the .30 carbine revolver, etc., than to list reasons in favor of them.

If we don't need rimless carbines to pair with auto pistols, then why did we need a rimless revolver to pair with an auto carbine? We didn't. But the risk was low and the profit sufficient.

The gun market supports a monumental catalog of chamberings that doesn't make rational sense. How many .458's actually see Africa? Who really needed all these short magnums, etc? How important is it to whack varmints with .22 centerfires, and how many cartridges exist for that niche?

The idea that the market invariably finds every potential demand is a fallacy. When a potentially successful product does not get manufactured for any reason (bad market research, lack of imagination, poor financing decision by inventor, etc.) you never hear of the thing.

A friend invented an improved snowboard binding years ago. A manufacturer tried to buy the patent. My friend refused. So they sued him on a bogus patent-infringement claim. He won, but it cost him $40,000 a month to fight while he started his business. He had the financial depth, and sold his improved snowboard bindings. But if he'd had less funding, his product would have disappeared.

Market forces do not always bring good products to the top, we just never hear of the promising failures that never got built.

[WilliamDahl]

I feel like I've unleased a dragon.
But I'd still like to find a lever action in 9/40/45

Just bring the brass with you on your next trip south to the US and either sell it to the people who actually need that caliber or swap it for some .38/.357 brass to take back north with you.

Does the Canada postal system have the concept of flat rate shipping boxes like the USPS has? Maybe you can find some Canadians in need of brass. Taking it to a recycler where it will just be scrapped seems like such a waste.

[robertbank]

He can sell it up hereto a limited market or sell it into the US. I send brass to my friends in Texas frequently. We do not have export laws similar to the US to worry about. The US will allow the imports just, worries about exports.

For those of you who still think the lever market is crying for a 9MM/40cal.45acp lever gun I would appreciate if they would identify the market for such a firearm. The crowd I see running around with pistol carbines aren't it for sure. Camo outfits and Cowboy hats just dont cut in the tacticool crowd.

Zuke I shoot .40cal in IPSC and a visit to one of their shoots likely would see you sell most of the brass fairly quickly. The stuff lasts for quite a few reloads but we do lose lots of brass at our shoots.

Canada Post does not offer flat rate shipping like the USPS. They do have guaranteed delivery which is cool when you are sending items to remoter areas. Money back guarantee. Our Christmas presents to our kids go for free about every other year due to post office packages getting bumpted off of airlines due to other traffic.


Take Care

Bob

[starmac]

There is some interest in a 9/40 45 cal lever gun, but I have my doubts there is enough to interest the manufacturers yet. This could possibly change.
There are lots of semi pistols sold and shot, but I'm thinking a lot of the semi shooters would opt for a pistol caliber semi carbine over a lever. A few manufactures have tried this route and discontinued them for a reason. Maybe interests have changed enough to make it work now, then again maybe not.

[btroj]

Now an AR that fired 9/40/45 would sell. The mall ninja crowd would be all over that one.

Me? I will stick with old fashioned rimmed case leveractions.

[Oreo]

There already are AR15s that shoot 9/40/10mm/45/etc.

I'd rather have the lever gun and I'm not into cowboy, camo, or tacticool. I just like make the most of a good cartridge I'm already geared up for, and the lever gun reminds me of the old Daisy lever gun I started on as a very young boy. Was similar to the Red Rider.

[btroj]

Find 100,000 like minded people and send money to Marlin to cover R&D costs. The might listen to that.

[zuke]

He can sell it up hereto a limited market or sell it into the US. I send brass to my friends in Texas frequently. We do not have export laws similar to the US to worry about. The US will allow the imports just, worries about exports.

For those of you who still think the lever market is crying for a 9MM/40cal.45acp lever gun I would appreciate if they would identify the market for such a firearm. The crowd I see running around with pistol carbines aren't it for sure. Camo outfits and Cowboy hats just dont cut in the tacticool crowd.

Zuke I shoot .40cal in IPSC and a visit to one of their shoots likely would see you sell most of the brass fairly quickly. The stuff lasts for quite a few reloads but we do lose lots of brass at our shoots.

Canada Post does not offer flat rate shipping like the USPS. They do have guaranteed delivery which is cool when you are sending items to remoter areas. Money back guarantee. Our Christmas presents to our kids go for free about every other year due to post office packages getting bumpted off of airlines due to other traffic.


Take Care

Bob

I've sold many 1000's on Gunnutz,for $30/1000
For those that think that there is no market for such far fetched idea's, can you explain to me the Mossberg "chainsaw"?
As for the no market concern's,how would they know for sure till they made a run?
I know all about tooling, I was a machinist for 20 year's in a stainless steel shop.

[Pereira]

93332

I have a Marlin 1894 which John Taylor converted to .45 ACP for me.

93330

93331
Hey outpost you ever hunted with that?

[Outpost75]

Hey outpost you ever hunted with that?

Yes. Small game and varmints. But mostly as a camp gun and plinker.

[9.3X62AL]

I have no issue with the idea of a levergun in a rimless pistol caliber, though I do think the AR-15 platforms have likely stolen whatever thunder such an idea might have had. Marlin and Ruger made carbines to fit autopistol calibers (and magazines), and though they were a neat idea they really didn't catch on. It seems to have taken the Colt SMG and its derivatives to launch the pistol caliber carbine idea in a positive direction. No small part of their appeal is the 32-round magazine that the system uses. I shot the living daylights out of these critters, and they are as reliable as an old hound dog and accurate as can be. No streetlight was safe to 150 yards when the Colt was on station.

All that said, it wouldn't take a radical re-design of the Marlin 94 or whose-ever repro Win 92 to function with 40 S&W cartridges. A little bit bigger magazine cutoff, timed to coincide with a cartridge 1/2" shorter than the 357 or 44 Magnum. Perhaps a step or stop on the cartridge lifter, to position the fresh round more closely to the chamber when the lifter rises. Almost all 40 S&W factory rounds are truncated cone or hollow point, so lining the rounds up in a tube mag should present no safety issues. This is just off the top of the head of a social science major, but the idea seems viable on its face. Whether it would sell......that's the poser.

[Bored1]

I hadn't ever thought about that! If there was a lever availible in 9/40/45 I would probably end up with all 3 if I could find them all!!!! Would make great plinkers, already load those calibers and my kids who are still a bit young for most rifle loads would get a kick outta them!!!!!

But then I am the only guy I know who's been looking for a 44mag lever action since 1Shirt let me know they even existed!!!!

[9.3X62AL]

A 44 Mag levergun might be a bit much for kids, unless you tone the loads down some. 250 grainers at 1800 fps push back a bit.

[Catshooter]

I always thought that a .30-30 converted to a straight walled cartridge would make a good levergun cartridge.

It does indeed William. It's called the 38-55 and I love mine!


Cat

[Oreo]

Ok, so we can all wish in one hand and....

What is the best existing lever gun platform to have converted? Who does this kind of work? And what kind of money are we talking about?

I see one person has already had one converted to 45acp. I'd like to hear more about it. Any feedin / function issues? Any problems with boolit setback in the tube magazine? 45acp is a low pressure cartridge relative to the 40. Would pressure be a concern for any of the likely conversion candidates?

[btroj]

I think a Marlin 1894 could be modified. Pressure shouldn't be an issue, they make the rifle in 44 mag.
I just think it could get expensive pretty quick. New barrel, modified carrier, some changes to the bolt face and extractor. Bet it would run close to a grand on your rifle. I would start with a 357 so the bolt face could be opened up, a 44 mag bolt might be too big already.

[JHeath]

Somebody just mentioned .45acp, etc on a Marlin thread and got a couple of snarky responses.

1) The '92 and Marlin '94 were designed for handgun cartridges. The idea that it is somehow unnatural to chamber .45 acp, Browning's most produced handgun cartridge, and one of the most popular handgun cartridges ever made, in a carbine that he designed for handgun cartridges and has been produced in the millions, seems an irrational prejudice. The .45acp is "weaker" than the .357 etc, but the .357 is weaker than the .454 Casull. Why bother chambering '92s in anything less than .454? Because people want to use the same caliber in their carbine as their handgun. And not everybody wants to pound themselves with the hottest cartridge an action can take.

2) I think the reason this has not been done, and won't be, is that much .45acp and 9mm ammo is RN FMJ. Rimless cartridges do not angle in a tube mag, so the FMJs would be directly against primers. Recoil might not be sufficient to detonate them, but slamming the butt on the ground might. Either way, the factories have probably considered these chamberings many times in the last century, and balked at the risk.

That's less of an issue with .40 S&W, but without the .45 and 9mm there won't be much market for rimless lever guns.

[geargnasher]

Somebody just mentioned .45acp, etc on a Marlin thread and got a couple of snarky responses.

1) The '92 and Marlin '94 were designed for handgun cartridges. The idea that it is somehow unnatural to chamber .45 acp, Browning's most produced handgun cartridge, and one of the most popular handgun cartridges ever made, in a carbine that he designed for handgun cartridges and has been produced in the millions, seems an irrational prejudice. The .45acp is "weaker" than the .357 etc, but the .357 is weaker than the .454 Casull. Why bother chambering '92s in anything less than .454? Because people want to use the same caliber in their carbine as their handgun. And not everybody wants to pound themselves with the hottest cartridge an action can take.

2) I think the reason this has not been done, and won't be, is that much .45acp and 9mm ammo is RN FMJ. Rimless cartridges do not angle in a tube mag, so the FMJs would be directly against primers. Recoil might not be sufficient to detonate them, but slamming the butt on the ground might. Either way, the factories have probably considered these chamberings many times in the last century, and balked at the risk.

That's less of an issue with .40 S&W, but without the .45 and 9mm there won't be much market for rimless lever guns.

Glad someone FINALLY mentioned the tube magazine thing. Someone earlier mentioned telescoping issues, but the jacketed round-nose might actually be a problem. I have a feeling that .45 ACP will actually stack in a tube instead of stagger like a lot of the other levergun cartridges will. The lack of crimp groove, roll crimp, and the use of softer lead boolits could be an issue in an auto-pistol-caliber levergun if one wasn't careful.

That said, I have the perfect platform in mind: Taurus Thunderbolt. I think they quit making them, but a pump-action carbine would be absolutely perfect for .45 ACP or 9mm. I have a .45 Colt with a really bad chamber and bolt face, and the platform would do really well to have the stroke shortened since the bolt runs out of the raceways near the back with .45 Colt ammo.

All one needs to do for a roll crimp .45 ACP is saw the bottom off of a .45 Colt roll-crimp die, and that big, flat-nosed Lee 200-grain RFN has a dandy crimp groove......

Gear

[btroj]

Heck, why not a box magazine? Or some sort of mag well for an existing handgun magazine?

[JHeath]

Heck, why not a box magazine? Or some sort of mag well for an existing handgun magazine?

I mentioned that someplace. I suspect it won't clear the lever, but would not write off the idea. Maybe reshaping the trigger guard would help. Don't know if it's possible to make a short-stroke kit for a '92 like the CAS guys use in the '73.

IF a box mag would work, it would eliminate the carrier mods etc. and much simplify the conversion. Also the old mag tube hole could be used to anchor a forearm hanger, and the barrel could be free-floated. The result could be a super accurate little rifle with few moving parts.

Lots of potential to play with calibers if the box mag can work. Bring on the .40 Super.

Then the shoe would be on the other foot, and the rimmed cartridge fans who could not find workable box mags would envy those rimless-cartridge lever rifle owners.

[btroj]

No, not clear the lever. Why not go with a cool look and make it like a Sterling SMG and have the magazine on the side of the action!

Now THAT would be tacticool

[smkummer]

9/40/45 were made to feed out of box magazines not tube. Bullet set-back would be an issue unless heavily crimped and then it might not chamber correctly in a handgun. Even if the factories could put a canalure behind the bullet on the case, reloaders cant. Ammo manufactures dont want to make the same caliber ammo 2 different ways for 2 different feed devices as people don't always read labels and it will get mixed up. Case in point. 9mm Federal was an attempt at a Rimmed 9mm cartridge to chamber and eject normally in a revolver without 1/2 moon clips. The problem was it would also fit in some 38S&W revolvers of a much weaker design. The cartridge disappeared really fast. So would any lever actions chambered in a autoloading pistol round when it is discovered that the bullets start pushing themselves into the cases. So my prediction is that this will never happen. 9/40/45 were designed from day one to be autoloading cartridges, why make them something they are not?

[WilliamDahl]

9/40/45 were made to feed out of box magazines not tube. Bullet set-back would be an issue unless heavily crimped and then it might not chamber correctly in a handgun. Even if the factories could put a canalure behind the bullet on the case, reloaders cant.

But they could make it so that it used healed bullets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heeled_bullet) if they so desired.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7c/Modern_bullet_vs_heeled_bullet_diagram.png/200px-Modern_bullet_vs_heeled_bullet_diagram.png

Sure, we would need a different bullet mold and a slight change to our reloading procedures, but it is definitely doable.

[btroj]

Requiring a heel base bullet would be a huge step backwards. People are looking for a levergun that uses the same ammo as the gun the shoot now, a different case changes that completely.

[starmac]

I wonder how many times over the years this has been discussed in major manufacturers circles, and engineers and or marketing studies have shot it down?

I would almost bet that the idea has been discussed at the very least.

[WilliamDahl]

Requiring a heel base bullet would be a huge step backwards. People are looking for a levergun that uses the same ammo as the gun the shoot now, a different case changes that completely.

I'm just pointing out that it is possible to design something that uses current brass and does not require a cannelure to be placed. Now, if we were to do that, the .40SW brass would be shooting a .423" bullet since that is the diameter of the brass at the neck. A .45ACP would be shooting a .473" bullet and a 9mm would be shooting a TRUE .38 caliber (i.e. .380") bullet. With lubed bullets, I don't think a heeled bullet design is that great since it allows grit to collect in the lube and possibly wear your barrel, but with a powder coated bullet, it might be an option.

Just trying to think outside the box, I guess.

[JHeath]

I wonder how many times over the years this has been discussed in major manufacturers circles, and engineers and or marketing studies have shot it down?

I would almost bet that the idea has been discussed at the very least.

I think gun engineers have considered the idea hundreds of times, and concluded before trying that the company lawyers would choke on the risk of tubes of ball ammo nose-to-tail being shaken back and forth.

Way to do it with a tube mag is for a small aftermarket company to sell the parts, and the owner who decides to mod his gun takes the responsibility, just like when you re-chamber.

I stll wonder how bad the clearance problem with a standard pistol box mag would be, and if it could be worked around with a different lever, a short stroke kit, a dogleg trigger that would buy another 1/2" of clearance, etc. Solving this would eliminate the tube mag issue. And I am certain it is solvable, it's just a matter of the margin between approximately 12.5 to 14.5 HPU's, which is the standard measure in professional project management. Stands for Heath Problem Units on a scale of twenty.

Eisenhower said if a problem seems unsolvable, make a bigger problem out of it. Box mag sound difficult? If Angelina Jolie and Michelle Yeoh walked in the door and said they wanted it done, I'd have a prototype working in a few hours and be surprised how easy it was after all.

[WilliamDahl]

I stll wonder how bad the clearance problem with a standard pistol box mag would be, and if it could be worked around with a different lever, a short stroke kit, a dogleg trigger that would buy another 1/2" of clearance, etc. Solving this would eliminate the tube mag issue.

I'm suspect it could be accomplished by mounting the mag to the side instead of below the rifle. Kind of like how the STEN's magazine was mounted? Yeah, it would probably be butt ugly, but *possible*.

[JHeath]

I'm suspect it could be accomplished by mounting the mag to the side instead of below the rifle. Kind of like how the STEN's magazine was mounted? Yeah, it would probably be butt ugly, but *possible*.

It would feed cartridges but my horse would complain about the mag poking him the ribs while I rode him.

Also it would cause those confused CAS guys to hold their leverguns sideways and wear their hats backwards like the gangstas. The droopy-pants thing might be an advantage, judging by how some of the SAA guys wear their holsters.

[9.3X62AL]

Marlin made a box magazine-fed lever centerfire rifle for a time--their Model 62. It had something of a "short-stroke" action regimen, and my example in 30 U.S. Carbine out-shot EVERY 30 Carbine I ever fired in terms of accuracy. It used a proprietary magazine of low capacity (3 rounds), which wasn't overwhelming......but it would serve as a hunting or varmint rifle rather well. Bump the capacity up to 5 rounds, and it would be viable for field use. In addition to 30 Carbine (in reality, an updated 32-20 WCF) it was also offered in 256 Win Mag.....an updated 25-20 WCF. From the 256's parent case--the 357 Magnum--a 35 caliber example could surely be birthed, and some dimensional upgrades could enable even 41 or 44 Mag.

I similarly see no reason that either a proprietary magazine could not be adapted for the shorter autopistol centerfire rounds, or a magazine retention aperture be built to accommodate existing 9mm/40 S&W/45 ACP mags already in use and have the action sequence feed rounds from that housing media. Again, we are paddling upstream with all of the AR-15 carbines available in pistol-caliber variants, but their presence simultaneously argues both against levergun adaptation to these calibers while in at least one fashion justifying the attempt. Sola mi dos centavos, amigos.

[WilliamDahl]

Marlin made a box magazine-fed lever centerfire rifle for a time--their Model 62. It had something of a "short-stroke" action regimen, and my example in 30 U.S. Carbine out-shot EVERY 30 Carbine I ever fired in terms of accuracy. It used a proprietary magazine of low capacity (3 rounds), which wasn't overwhelming......but it would serve as a hunting or varmint rifle rather well. Bump the capacity up to 5 rounds, and it would be viable for field use.

Had to look it up:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/images/marlin/marlin62.jpg

Or maybe even a rotary magazine something like the Ruger 10/22 uses?

[9.3X62AL]

Well.....Ruger uses a 5-shot rotary magazine for their 357 and 44 Magnum bolt rifles.

An existing magazine for a pistol in these calibers suggests itself as the test bed, rather than cobbling one up from scratch. (Watch while I REALLY torque off the levergun traditionalists)......Glock mags hold up well, are dirt-cheap, and reliable as can be.

[JHeath]

NOW we're getting somewhere: the box-fed Glever-action rifle in .40 S&W.

I confess complete ignorance or forgetfulness as to that Marlin. In addition to the .30 Carbine as a modern, rimless .32-20, there's also the 7.62x25 and it's available in autopistols (in case you can't find an AMT .30).

[geargnasher]

Here's an idea, maybe I should patent it: SCREW-FED TUBE MAGAZINE. A helical magazine tube insert would have little teats on it that engage the extractor groove and space the cartridges apart a safe distance, say 1/8". This would rotate as the cartridges were stuffed into it. There could be a torsional spring that indexes the insert to feed them back out, or just the plunger spring to drive the cartridges into the carrier/elevator and the insert would then simply freewheel inside the tube.

Gear

[btroj]

Here's an idea, maybe I should patent it: SCREW-FED TUBE MAGAZINE. A helical magazine tube insert would have little teats on it that engage the extractor groove and space the cartridges apart a safe distance, say 1/8". This would rotate as the cartridges were stuffed into it. There could be a torsional spring that indexes the insert to feed them back out, or just the plunger spring to drive the cartridges into the carrier/elevator and the insert would then simply freewheel inside the tube.

Gear

Sounds like an idea from an engineer, not a mechanic.......

[DeanWinchester]

Here's an idea, maybe I should patent it: SCREW-FED TUBE MAGAZINE. A helical magazine tube insert would have little teats on it that engage the extractor groove and space the cartridges apart a safe distance, say 1/8". This would rotate as the cartridges were stuffed into it. There could be a torsional spring that indexes the insert to feed them back out, or just the plunger spring to drive the cartridges into the carrier/elevator and the insert would then simply freewheel inside the tube.

Gear

Sounds like something Calico used for their liberty guns.

[Oreo]

Why not just a regular tube fed lever gun and use RFN boolits? The 40cal boolit I designed has a nice wide, shallow hollow point that wouldn't even touch the primer in a tube magazine. Problem solved.

[JHeath]

Why not just a regular tube fed lever gun and use RFN boolits? The 40cal boolit I designed has a nice wide, shallow hollow point that wouldn't even touch the primer in a tube magazine. Problem solved.

Because the gun companies won't make it due to the risk of RN FMJs. And owner conversion of an existing tube mag rifle to a rimless cartridge is science project. We're trying to find ways around both those issues.

[heycods]

I dont shoot a 40, but do shoot a 45Lc in pistol and rifle, seems to me anyone would want a pistol and rifle that shot the same round. Looks like a great sale to me

[JHeath]

Think I got it.

Cut/weld a '92 lever so the front half of the "trigger guard" bow of the lever is made of two parallel curved bars, spaced apart to straddle a box mag. The trigger guard bow should be no wider than the receiver and probably narrower.

It's basically a wide trigger guard with a slot in the middle that clears the back of the mag when the lever is stroked. I think it leaves enough trigger-finger clearance that whacking the back of the mag with your finger when stroking the lever is not a problem.

The rear half of the trigger guard can be single-width, so not a reach issue for the trigger finger.

Then use the tube mag hole to mount a stout forearm hanger and free-float the barrel. The result should be at least as accurate as a Ruger No. 1 with the standard forearm hanger.

I don't have a '92 here or a mill. And I'm guessing about the clearances based on photos.

[Oreo]

Why not just a regular tube fed lever gun and use RFN boolits? The 40cal boolit I designed has a nice wide, shallow hollow point that wouldn't even touch the primer in a tube magazine. Problem solved.
Because the gun companies won't make it due to the risk of RN FMJs. And owner conversion of an existing tube mag rifle to a rimless cartridge is science project. We're trying to find ways around both those issues.

Well yea, I read that part already. There is no way around it. We're not getting a commercially produced option, period. The only option left is the science project.

My suggestion is to not reinvent the wheel with some goofy over-complicated magazine design. Keep it simple and use compatible ammo in an already proven design. Then the only engineering that needs done is the feeding / extracting mechanism.

[JHeath]

Converting a tube mag to feed rimless is a science project, that the factories cannot copy because of the fmj issue.

Converting a lever rifle to use off-the-shelf pistol mags is different. It might be a simpler conversion, has the benefit of detachable mags etc, and if well-designed a factory could produce a box-mag rifle probably cheaper than a tube mag rifle.

I think a really simple mod to the lever makes it possible. If I had a mill I would try it.

[Oreo]

Different strokes for different folks. I have no interest in a box-mag fed lever gun on looks alone.

[JHeath]

Yeah I know. But shortening a bolt action and making that work is not much of an option. So to have a rimless pistol-cal carbine, it's either an AR or modify a lever rifle. And I am not ready for an AR like I'm not ready to start dressing from American Apparel.

[Oreo]

There's the MechTech (http://www.mechtechsys.com/index.php) which I hear works pretty good. Its a lot closer to an AR then a lever gun in the looks department though.

[WilliamDahl]

There's the MechTech (http://www.mechtechsys.com/index.php) which I hear works pretty good. Its a lot closer to an AR then a lever gun in the looks department though.

An AR can be made to look nice though. Get rid of the plastic furniture and replace it with walnut or whatever. Maybe do a bit of customizing......

94907

[Oreo]

I actually like the looks of an AR but that picture is blasphemy. ARs should be all black the way God intended.

[WilliamDahl]

I actually like the looks of an AR but that picture is blasphemy. ARs should be all black the way God intended.

One could say the same thing about the flat-top versions that do not have a handle as an integral part of the upper. :)

I like ARs and even own one, but I definitely would not turn down one with a nice walnut stock.

[JHeath]

I actually like the looks of an AR but that picture is blasphemy. ARs should be all black the way God intended.

That's because you are an American plebe with a beat-up truck and an AR behind the seat.

If you had a little more culture, you would recognize the above is a Westley Richards AR made to rattle around behind the seat of a very expensive Mercedes SUV. It is what British aristocrats use to shoot up road signs.

That is why the British use right-hand drive cars. When you roll down the window to shoot road signs, the brass ejects outside the car instead of hitting your passenger in the face.

Now do you understand why we need rimless '92s? Because they are top eject, so the brass collects in your lap when you shoot road signs. Think it through, man.

[robertbank]

Priceless, thanks for that.

Bob

[Alan in Vermont]

But they could make it so that it used healed bullets if they so desired.


So, if they are now healed, when were they injured?

[catskinner]

Use a spiral magazine tube like a Remingto Model 14/141.

[Boogieman]

Different strokes for different folks. I have no interest in a box-mag fed lever gun on looks alone.

You don't like Browning's 1895 W inchester ?

[Boogieman]

An AR can be made to look nice though. Get rid of the plastic furniture and replace it with walnut or whatever. Maybe do a bit of customizing......

94907

I'll take one like this in 50 Bewolf

[Oreo]

Funny, as fancy as that AR looks it doesn't even have a free-floated barrel. They went through all the trouble of grinding the mag-well flare flat and custom machining for the gold inlay yet they started with an off-the-shelf receiver, evidenced by the Magpul trigger guard. You'd think they would have started with a billet receiver for that project.

Whatev. Guess I'm just too uncultured to understand the ways of those British aristocrats.

Now, hot brass collecting in the lap sounds like burned manhood to me. I'd prefer the side-ejecting lever guns in that case, thanks.

[JHeath]

Here's an idea, maybe I should patent it: SCREW-FED TUBE MAGAZINE. A helical magazine tube insert would have little teats on it that engage the extractor groove and space the cartridges apart a safe distance, say 1/8". This would rotate as the cartridges were stuffed into it. There could be a torsional spring that indexes the insert to feed them back out, or just the plunger spring to drive the cartridges into the carrier/elevator and the insert would then simply freewheel inside the tube.

Gear

Sorry, but that violates my patented helical blow-back action.

The grooves and lands inside the barrel are straight (not spiraled). But there is a helical groove on the outside of the barrel.

When the bolt blows back, an op-rod reaching from the bolt to the helical groove outside the barrel causes the entire barrel to rotate, which spins the bullet.

The barrel inertia slows the bolt, so a locked breech is not needed.

The barrel is geared to a helical tube mag, which has to be left-hand thread because the barrel rotates clockwise.

But I am still stuck with rimmed cartridges, because so far 9.3x74R is the only case with a long enough bolt stroke to stabilize the bullet.

[Andrew Mason]

10mm/.40S&W have the same rim diameter as the .35 reminton, just a helpful hint for yall

[Andrew Mason]

Funny, as fancy as that AR looks it doesn't even have a free-floated barrel. They went through all the trouble of grinding the mag-well flare flat and custom machining for the gold inlay yet they started with an off-the-shelf receiver, evidenced by the Magpul trigger guard. You'd think they would have started with a billet receiver for that project.

Whatev. Guess I'm just too uncultured to understand the ways of those British aristocrats.

Now, hot brass collecting in the lap sounds like burned manhood to me. I'd prefer the side-ejecting lever guns in that case, thanks.



definatly going to have to argue with you on that being an off the shelf receiver, look over it again, it appears to be color cased.

[CurlyJim]

would be really good if Ruger made the 38-40 again,this time with an extra .40 S&W cylinder.Also Rossi doing a .38-40 as well in M 92,
Any thoughts?

[Jupiter7]

definatly going to have to argue with you on that being an off the shelf receiver, look over it again, it appears to be color cased.

The AR variant in the picture is American made. It is also steel and color case hardened. Done by a very famous gentleman named John Turnbull. It is a Dpms pattern LR308. The idea is to strengthen the image of the AR as a true modern sporting rifle like days of old. Walnut and blue steel. You got the cash, go for it. Limited run of 135pcs. Be real nice match with one of the new Turnbull 1911's.

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=36767

[Oreo]

Its a ***, even if you think it's pretty. I don't even think it's pretty. $5k for an ar that uses a Bushmaster or DPMS barrel? That's outrageous. If Turnbull is trying to make a gentleman's rifle from an AR he's failing horribly.

[starmac]

I'm thinking if turnbull makes them, and sells them for his price, he probably doesn't consider it a fail.

[TXGunNut]

I'm thinking if turnbull makes them, and sells them for his price, he probably doesn't consider it a fail.

Yep, there's an AR I'd be proud to own. At this time I'll neither confirm nor deny the presence of an AR in my safe.

[Oreo]

Turnbull clearly doesn't understand the AR very well. However, I'm sure there's plenty of suckers willing to shell out $5k for that wall hanger. PT Barnum said those kind of folks were born every minute.

[sthwestvictoria]

Heck, why not a box magazine? Or some sort of mag well for an existing handgun magazine?
96181
El Tigre - box magazine fed 45ACP 1892 clone from Spain.

[zuke]

96181
El Tigre - box magazine fed 45ACP 1892 clone from Spain.

Now THAT would be fun!!

[btroj]

Now if we put a flash hider on it and used a black stock.......

[bigted]

leverguns ??? my how we deviate huh? sure would like a 40-65 in a Marlin ... maybe need to contemplate a new build ... HMMM! ...:roll:

[JHeath]

96181
El Tigre - box magazine fed 45ACP 1892 clone from Spain.

I saw this photo before and heard it was a movie prop only. The hurdle is that the lever would appear to strike the box mag. A simple workaround would be to re-make the front part of the lever/trigger guard out of two pieces of steel, spaced wide enough to straddle the box mag when the action is open. I think this would work, and would be a simple cut/weld job.

Using a box mag would eliminate re-working the carrier, and the risk of having fmj in a tube mag, etc.

[WilliamDahl]

I saw this photo before and heard it was a movie prop only. The hurdle is that the lever would appear to strike the box mag. A simple workaround would be to re-make the front part of the lever/trigger guard out of two pieces of steel, spaced wide enough to straddle the box mag when the action is open. I think this would work, and would be a simple cut/weld job.

Using a box mag would eliminate re-working the carrier, and the risk of having fmj in a tube mag, etc.

Even if the front part of the lever / trigger guard was made out of two pieces of steel, you finger are still in that area and are "continuous". The only real option would be to have some sort of gearing mechanism in it so that the lever did not require as long of a throw to cycle the action.

[WilliamDahl]

I saw this recently on Armslist. For some reason, putting an AR-15 type stock on a 30-30 leveraction rifle just seems WRONG.

96272

[JHeath]

Even if the front part of the lever / trigger guard was made out of two pieces of steel, you finger are still in that area and are "continuous". The only real option would be to have some sort of gearing mechanism in it so that the lever did not require as long of a throw to cycle the action.

I don't think finger clearance is a problem. It looks like if you held your trigger finger as forward in the lever as possible, the side of your finger might gently touch the back of the mag. It might not even touch, depending how deeply the trigger guard straddled the mag. And remember, there's no pinch point, nothing to hurt your finger. So I don't think it's an issue. Modifying the trigger guard is probably a simple way to make a box-fed '92 a practical option.

I don't have a '92 at hand but sometime I will get around to sizing this up and see if it works. I think my ideal caliber would be .40 Super, which is relatively practical in a pistol, and powerful enough to be meaningful in a carbine. Or maybe 9x23.

Short-stroke kits are available for '73s. I am not sure they're feasible with a '92.

[WilliamDahl]

I don't think finger clearance is a problem. It looks like if you held your trigger finger as forward in the lever as possible, the side of your finger might gently touch the back of the mag. It might not even touch, depending how deeply the trigger guard straddled the mag. And remember, there's no pinch point, nothing to hurt your finger. So I don't think it's an issue. Modifying the trigger guard is probably a simple way to make a box-fed '92 a practical option.


But when you are operating the lever, your fingers would be at the forward edge of the lever closest to the magazine.

[JHeath]

But when you are operating the lever, your fingers would be at the forward edge of the lever closest to the magazine.

Look at the image and extend a 1911 box mag down from the front tip of the cartridge lifter. The mag would extend into the trigger bow, but I think not the lever loop. I don't have the exact dimensions.

Mechanically it would work, and ergonomically it's close enough I think the remaining issues could be solved, maybe with a slight re-profile of the lever. I am sure it could be operated, whether it could be comfortably operated at speed, I'd need better measurements to tell.

[sthwestvictoria]

I saw this photo before and heard it was a movie prop only.
"I've also seen El Tigre Spanish clones of the Winchester '92 chambered/barreled in .45 ACP. They had the barrels cut to about 16". Was told that these were done in South America for a law enforcement agency that had worn out the original .44-40 barrels and wanted their carbines to chamber the same round as their handguns and submachine guns.

Probably done in the 1940s, since the guns were sold as surplus here in the 1960s when most South American agencies were beginning to standardize on the 9mm.

The Winchester '73, '92, and copies of them were very popular in South America for paramilitary weapons for a long time. Many of the "trapper" short carbines went down there. Handy in "la jungla"!

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49863


I can't tell you much about these, just what I learned when checking out one of these rifles that was used as a prop weapon in the Sci Fi movie "Soldier" starring Kurt Russel.
I asked around on several boards to find out if the rifle in the movie was real.
I'd heard of the Mexican police converting Model 92 Winchester or its clones to .45 ACP but not the feed mechanism. I would not have thought the tube magazine would have been used for these.
One poster who answered said both the M3 Grease gun and 1911 pistol mags were at times used by the Mexicans with these conversions, another stated that many .44-40 Mod 92 rifles in his country had been converted to .45 ACP after a law was passed preventing importation of any rifle cartridge that could also be used in a handgun. Their military, having converted entirely to the 9mm, still had huge stocks of .45 ACP that they were selling off dirt cheap. Having been brought into the country decades before the law was passed as military aid this ammo could still be bought by civilians. Since few civilians there owned any sort of handgun The idea of converting .44-40 rifles to .45 ACP came naturally. The surplus .45 ammo was cheaper than reloading the dwindling supply of .44 cases still on hand.
Since M3 Magazines were also being sold at scrap metal prices these were a natural choice.
Another poster told of some Model 92 rifles being converted to 9mm using the STEN magazine.
For the life of me I can not remember where any of those posters lived, if they ever mentioned what country they lived in. I think the last two lived in former British possessions or client states.

I can remember when new in the wrap M3 magazines were going for $3 each, so in those days it would have been an attractive alternative. Prices went up when Mac-10 owners found these could be altered to work in that weapon.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?221142-45-ACP-lever-gun/page4

I feel they are real albeit rare. That screen shot from the Kurt Russell movie is the only picture I could find and as you suggest this may not actually be a real El Tigre but a prop.

[pull the trigger]

Is 35 rem rimless

[smokesahoy]

40sw doesnt really lend itself to carbine length barrels. you don't really get much extra performance out of a 16" barrel

[WilliamDahl]

40sw doesnt really lend itself to carbine length barrels. you don't really get much extra performance out of a 16" barrel

There's always 10mm then... :)

[JHeath]

40sw doesnt really lend itself to carbine length barrels. you don't really get much extra performance out of a 16" barrel

No but it's still cool. It would be quiet. Same ammo as his pistol. And it's not always about power. Otherwise I would buy a .577 Tyrannosaur and throw all my other guns away. There's a place for the .32-20, the Hornet, etc., so there can be a place for a .40SW carbine that's quiet and cheap to shoot and hits just a little harder than a pistol. I would rather own a Destroyer carbine than something bigger that is loud, expensive, and not much fun to shoot.

[zuke]

40sw doesnt really lend itself to carbine length barrels. you don't really get much extra performance out of a 16" barrel

Brass is cheap, recoil nil, and fun to play with.

[Oreo]

40sw, the new 22lr!

[smokesahoy]

You're absolutely right sir, I'm still a newbie to the point where I get caught up on that stuff, but as Oreo said, this would make a totally awesome .22!
It would be nice to see something along these lines now that I see the possibilities.

No but it's still cool. It would be quiet. Same ammo as his pistol. And it's not always about power. Otherwise I would buy a .577 Tyrannosaur and throw all my other guns away. There's a place for the .32-20, the Hornet, etc., so there can be a place for a .40SW carbine that's quiet and cheap to shoot and hits just a little harder than a pistol. I would rather own a Destroyer carbine than something bigger that is loud, expensive, and not much fun to shoot.

[Digger]

Brass is cheap, recoil nil, and fun to play with.

Yes , a lever would be fun in that respect ....
Just picked up a Keltec sub 2000 in forty .... goes against the grain for my basic style all these years but I also have a five gal bucket of brass , range pickup all these years and a good amount of lead from scrounging so my actual cost comes out some where around 5 to 6 cents per pull ..... primer and powder.
Every one said the "Sub" is a fun shooter and now I agree ... my new "22" for now ... till prices (if ever , settle)

[concho]

Ok fellows ! I have a 40/90 sharps 40/65 Rem /Roller , can't find a mold to drop .410 bullets less than 420 grains , any help appreciated .

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was going to say Kel Tec Sub2000 in .40S&W using Glock mags cuz that's what I have, but Digger beat me too it.

An 1894 could be made to run .40 S&W as well as .45 ACP. I talked to Jim West's son (Wild West Guns) at the SHOT show about converting 1894's to .45 ACP and he said it couldn't be made to work. I went round and round with him about it and I have to tell you the reasons he was giving were just plain stupid. His main concern being the round is too short.

I told him that my 1894 in .44 magnum would feed Russians just fine, and it will with absolutely no modification whatsoever, and he wouldn't believe me.

I classified him to the bin labeled "people who think they know everything, really irritate those of us who do!" Probably won't be stopping by that booth next year.

I see no reason why simply modifying the lifter so it will not accept longer cartridges, (like the Cowboy .45 Short Colt cartridge guns) Possibly the bolt face and obviously the barrel, should work.

I understand that John Taylor has done this to a Marlin set up for .45 ACP.? No reason why the same procedure shouldn't work for the .40 S&W version.

An 1892 is a different story as those are much more sensitive to COAL than the Marlin design.

Randy

[JHeath]

A poster near the top of this thread had a .45acp 1892 built and said it works.

Another thread recently linked a video of an 1892 in 7.62x25.

So it's possible to convert 1892s using the tube mag. But takes a bunch of fiddling with the lifter etc. Would be nice to convert an 1892 to use a pistol box mag, eliminating the lifter, but a normal lever would not clear the box.

[Bullshop]

Forgive me if someone has mentioned this because I didn't read through all 132 replies.
I remember an article in the American Rifleman about a 416/450 Marlin on a 336 Marlin.

[Bullshop Junior]

Forgive me if someone has mentioned this because I didn't read through all 132 replies.
I remember an article in the American Rifleman about a 416/450 Marlin on a 336 Marlin.

Im pretty sure they are wanting to convert something to shoot pistol ammo. Most people call the 40 S&W just "40" or 40 cal, since they dont know there are other 40 caliber guns out there.

[Bullshop]

Oh the 40 short and weak. I've heard of it. Something about a better mouse trap.

[TXGunNut]

Oh the 40 short and weak. I've heard of it. Something about a better mouse trap.

I remember when that cartridge came out, decided it wasn't going to be around long. Just a silly compromise for folks afraid of the 45 and underrating the 9. [smilie=1:
I thought the 17HMR was silly, too.:roll:

[Oreo]

40sw may seem silly if you're already well supplied in 45 or 9mm but if you're like me and start buying guns after 40sw has established itself then it appears to be an obvious choice. I've become heavily invested in the cartridge and have no regrets. Its a good cartridge.

[Bullshop Junior]

40sw may seem silly if you're already well supplied in 45 or 9mm but if you're like me and start buying guns after 40sw has established itself then it appears to be an obvious choice. I've become heavily invested in the cartridge and have no regrets. Its a good cartridge.

45 has been around for over 100 years. Its not going anywhere

[denul]

J&G Sales was selling 92 actions from Mexico back in the late 70's or early 80's; they were marked 45 ACP, never learned if that was done in Mexico or the factory. They worked fine, but I had to have a 45 Colt, which was poorly (oversized) chambered. That lasted about 25 years, until my brother chambered it in 44-40. It's been through a lot, but seems happy now.

[TXGunNut]

40sw may seem silly if you're already well supplied in 45 or 9mm but if you're like me and start buying guns after 40sw has established itself then it appears to be an obvious choice. I've become heavily invested in the cartridge and have no regrets. Its a good cartridge.

You're right, I was wrong. I even carried a 40 S&W off-duty for a few years and had a duty gun chambered for it's hotrod cousin; the 357 Sig. I even have a 17 HMR even though I knew it would be impossible to mass-produce precision bullets that small. I've eaten my share of crow with my opinions of new products.

[Oreo]

I didn't mean to say anyone was right or wrong. I meant to describe the difference in perspectives between the guy just buying his first gun now and the guy who's owned guns for 50yrs. One sees no use for the cartridge while the other embraces it with good reason.

[zuke]

My good reason to embrace? I have a green garbage can full of once fired 40 brass that's going to the scrap yard once all this snow melt's.

[TXGunNut]

I didn't mean to say anyone was right or wrong. I meant to describe the difference in perspectives between the guy just buying his first gun now and the guy who's owned guns for 50yrs. One sees no use for the cartridge while the other embraces it with good reason.

I meant to say that I was wrong, that was my whole point. I find it amusing that I was so wrong about the 40 S&W...among other things. Pretty sure I don't have a 40 at the moment but I know it's one of the best LE cartridges available these days. If the mechanics could be worked out it would make an excellent levergun, just look at the 38-40. My shooting buddy has a few 100 yr old Winchesters chambered in 38-40 and they're quite enjoyable to shoot, quite possibly because he generally loads them with BP. Nice old Winchesters and 38-40 brass aren't exactly abundant today, 40 S&W brass can easily be picked up for free. Now if we just had a levergun that would shoot it.

[sawzall]

My good reason to embrace? I have a green garbage can full of once fired 40 brass that's going to the scrap yard once all this snow melt's.

Pick up some swaging dies and turn those casings into j-word projectiles. If you were closer, I would take them all off your hands. Too bad we don't have cheap shipping options up here in Canada.

For all the people praising and pushing the semi auto pistol caliber carbines, all 3 I have tried - 9mm S2K, 9mm JRC and a friends 10mm TD, every one of them mangled most of the brass, making it unreloadable. That was especially frustrating with the 10mm as the brass is expensive and hard to find (up here).

[zuke]

Pick up some swaging dies and turn those casings into j-word projectiles. If you were closer, I would take them all off your hands. Too bad we don't have cheap shipping options up here in Canada.

For all the people praising and pushing the semi auto pistol caliber carbines, all 3 I have tried - 9mm S2K, 9mm JRC and a friends 10mm TD, every one of them mangled most of the brass, making it unreloadable. That was especially frustrating with the 10mm as the brass is expensive and hard to find (up here).

I don't use enough 45 cal boolit's to justify buying the swaging die's.
Where-about's is "up here"? Shipping by bus is fairly cheap.

[Bullshop Junior]

I shoot a lot of 45 bullets. Wish i had a carbage can full of 40s lol