1911 Series 80

[StrawHat]

Just picked up a Series 80 in 45 ACP. I have been reading the stickies and searching through old threads. Lots of stuff to figure out for this old revolver fan. One thing I know, I will need some different boolit molds. All of mine are fit for revolvers, maybe one will work in the 1911, the Lyman 454423. The others are heavier and SWC or RNFP. They might work but I figure to start out with the standards and learn the basics. I have been down this road before and usually end up getting rid of the self loader and getting another revolver, but I really want to like the 1911. Maybe this time.

Anyway, back to the stickies!

[wv109323]

I don't know the nominal weight of the Lyman 454423. If it is under 230 gn. it will probably work. It will need to be sized to .452. The other thing you may need to do is seat the bullet past the crimp groove and taper crimp with about 1/32" of the shoulder of the bullet sticking out beyond the case mouth. The larger flat nose of the bullet (compared to the H&G 68) might be troublesome. The larger metplate will affect where the bullet hits the feed ramp and thus affect it's path into the chamber. The 200 gn. SWC and 230 RN rule in the 1911.

[Horace]

RCBS makes a good 230 grain cowboy mould for either the 45 Colt or the 45acp that feeds in an unaltered 70 or 80 series 1911.

Horace

[oger]

Don't know if the 454423 can be sized enough to work. I use the 452423 all the time for acp loads sized to 451 it's a little heavy but just cut the powder charge down.

[StrawHat]

From what I have read, the 454423 will work in the 1911.

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

I am still using the search funtion for other boolits for the 1911.

[ElDorado]

That article was written by one of our Cast Boolits neighbors, I believe.

I've shot the 454423 in the 1911A1, and I felt like I was beating the daylights out of the gun. I've had better results with a 200 gr SWC, like the RCBS 45-200-SWC or a H&G 68.

[6bg6ga]

Basically the 454423 is a 230-235 gr bullet and not that much different than say a 452374. They both are right in the ballpark weight wise so I see no problem. Shot 1000's of 230's in my 45acp without a problem. You may notice a tad bit more recoil but nothing that will hurt the gun. As you know the military round was a hard ball 230gr jacketed round and I would say millions have been shot.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I can't get the 454423 to feed in any of my 3 Colt 1911's. 452374 is the way I go. I've tried sizing 454423 down to .452 and seating it deeper and deeper into the case mouth but they will not chamber in my 3 Colt's.

I was using the 454423 in Schofield brass by Starline and shooting it with my Colt SAA's but now I'm just shooting it from full length .45 Colt brass.

[oger]

Mine are 245gr out of WW & 2% tin a load of 4.5 gr of 231 works fine for plinking.

[6bg6ga]

I can't get the 454423 to feed in any of my 3 Colt 1911's. 452374 is the way I go. I've tried sizing 454423 down to .452 and seating it deeper and deeper into the case mouth but they will not chamber in my 3 Colt's.

I was using the 454423 in Schofield brass by Starline and shooting it with my Colt SAA's but now I'm just shooting it from full length .45 Colt brass.

Have you measured the diameter of the bullets that you sized to .452 to make sure you had an actual 452 diameter?

What are you using load data for your Colt SAA if I may ask. I'm thinking of trying some 200gr SWC's in my 45 long colt.

Getting back to the bullets not feeding I guess anything can happen. The link above says the bullet works but each gun is different.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Yes, I've measured them .452". It's as if the sharp shoulder of the driving band catches on the chamber where the case mouth is supposed to headspace, and by the time I seat the boolit into the case so that the driving bank is below the case mouth then the boolit expands the brass. I just can't get it to feed.

What load data are you asking for? That 200 gr SWC 452460 is the most accurate boolit out of a Colt SAA, it just looks ugly going into the chamber.

[6bg6ga]

Actually I have Magma molds for 185 and 200 gr SWC similar to the H&G#68. I sold my 452460 mold when I bought my Ballisti-cast bullet caster.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

For load data I start with the Speer manual and Alliant powders, I've settled on Unique and have a chronograph. I used 8.5 gr of Unique in the .45 Colt and use 250 gr boolits.

[6bg6ga]

For load data I start with the Speer manual and Alliant powders, I've settled on Unique and have a chronograph. I used 8.5 gr of Unique in the .45 Colt and use 250 gr boolits.


I have unique but no 250gr bullets. I have 230RN, 185SWC, and 200SWC.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I like Unique better than Bullseye, I used 8.5 gr of Unique with the 250 gr boolits. I've got load data with other powders, lots of people use Trail Boss but I've settled on Unique.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

6bg6ga, when I typed "used" I meant to type "use." My Colt .45's get shot a lot and Unique with the heavy boolit is what I use. I have load data I could pull out and review but nothing recently with the 200 gr boolit, gave it up years ago because of the different point of impact with fixed sights. 6.8 gr of Bullseye with the 250 gr boolits works OK as does 15 gr of 2400 in the Colt's but I stick to Unique.

[gray wolf]

If in fact your past performance with the auto pistols have been--lets say not so good--
Then why on earth start again with anything less than the recommended know bullets that will work and get you off on the right foot. Why add a potential problem out of the gate. Get a good copy of an H&G # 68 flat base
and learn how to properly establish the seating dept for it.
If the pistol is used and it sounds like it is, have it checked out for the proper safety functions, have the geometry of the throat and barrel chamber looked at as to establish if it will function with SWC bullets.
Have the extractor looked at and checked also the ejector fit and face angles. Many used 1911,s have been messed with beyond belief. Test fire the gun with factory ball if you can. I would also check the recoil spring and make sure it's a 16# To many other thing to comment on,but at least start with a good bullet for the 1911.

[Char-Gar]

Your boys need to be more careful with your numbers...

Lyman 454424 is the 260 grain Keith bullet for the 45 Colt round.
Lyman 452423 is the 235 grain Keith bullet for the 45 Auto Rim round

There is NO 454423..it does not exist.

452423 will weight 230 grains from Linotype and about 242 grains from ACWW. Loaded over 4.5 to 4.7 grains of Bulleye is makes a decent load for the 45 ACP round and will feed in most but not all 1911 pistols. The trick is to seat the bullet down with just enough body of the bullet above the case to get a decent taper crimp. Here is a pic of the round so loaded. I shoot these in my 1911s as well as my Smith and Wesson 625 for bowling pin shooting. They clear the pin off the table with any fair hit.

For the fellow looking for a bullet mold to start with for loading the 45 ACP round in a 1911 pistol, I would suggest either of;

Hensley and Gibbs #68 or a clone
Lyman 452460
RCBS 230 Cowboy bullet

452423 IS NOT the bullet to start with.

Size all bullets for the 45 ACP round (in a 1911 pistol) .452 and never look back.

[Char-Gar]

I like Unique better than Bullseye, I used 8.5 gr of Unique with the 250 gr boolits. I've got load data with other powders, lots of people use Trail Boss but I've settled on Unique.

I just may be a picky old esso bee, but mixing 45 Colt loads into a thread about 45 ACP reloading without clearly labeling each post as such, is not a very smart idea. Folks will read this stuff and won't take time to read back through all of the posts to get the context. Yea, I know I am a jerk, but somebody has to call balls and strikes on this stuff.

[gray wolf]

I just may be a picky old esso bee,
Yes you are But in a very good way, it shows you care about us.

[MtGun44]

Read Char-Gar's post a couple more times and you are done.

Bill

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Yup, I checked my mould, it's 452423.

[bhn22]

I've tried that bullet in my Series 80 and it worked fine. In fact, I can't remember a single bullet ever failing to feed as long as I did my part in loading. Note the bullet depth in Chargars earlier pic. That's exactly where my 1911 liked them, with just a sliver of the shoulder above the case mouth. Since you already have the mold, it won't hurt to try a few. You're not going to be stuck with round nose bullets in your gun, if it's anything like mine.

[Boogieman]

I just may be a picky old esso bee, but mixing 45 Colt loads into a thread about 45 ACP reloading without clearly labeling each post as such, is not a very smart idea. Folks will read this stuff and won't take time to read back through all of the posts to get the context. Yea, I know I am a jerk, but somebody has to call balls and strikes on this stuff.
I agree completely.

[oger]

I set mine to 1.160 oal and it feeds well in every different 45 I have.

[StrawHat]

I just may be a picky old esso bee, but mixing 45 Colt loads into a thread about 45 ACP reloading without clearly labeling each post as such, is not a very smart idea. Folks will read this stuff and won't take time to read back through all of the posts to get the context. Yea, I know I am a jerk, but somebody has to call balls and strikes on this stuff.

Thank you, it took me a second to recognize the intent of the recipe.

[StrawHat]

Your boys need to be more careful with your numbers...

Lyman 454424 is the 260 grain Keith bullet for the 45 Colt round.
Lyman 452423 is the 235 grain Keith bullet for the 45 Auto Rim round

There is NO 454423..it does not exist.

452423 will weight 230 grains from Linotype and about 242 grains from ACWW. Loaded over 4.5 to 4.7 grains of Bulleye is makes a decent load for the 45 ACP round and will feed in most but not all 1911 pistols. The trick is to seat the bullet down with just enough body of the bullet above the case to get a decent taper crimp. Here is a pic of the round so loaded. I shoot these in my 1911s as well as my Smith and Wesson 625 for bowling pin shooting. They clear the pin off the table with any fair hit.

For the fellow looking for a bullet mold to start with for loading the 45 ACP round in a 1911 pistol, I would suggest either of;

Hensley and Gibbs #68 or a clone
Lyman 452460
RCBS 230 Cowboy bullet

452423 IS NOT the bullet to start with.

Size all bullets for the 45 ACP round (in a 1911 pistol) .452 and never look back.

I am the one who misspoke on the mold number. The others just responded to my mistake. Of course, I do not have a Lyman mold, mine is from one of the GBs here on the site.

Thank you for the advice and I will try to find a few of the bollits you mention to try out prior to getting a mold cut.

[bhn22]

SAECO 058 is another good SWC design that works well in my guns. However, it is very similar in profile to your Keith design, and there probably wouldn't be any appreciable advantage to buying one. Especially when you take into account the bevel base, which makes for more work with some sizers.

[Char-Gar]

Hand loading can be dangerous business IF a fellow isn't paying close attention to what he is doing and saying. You are turning loose allot of hot gas under pressure, held in a little brass jug, just inches from your hands, eyes and ears.

Substitute a heavier bullet for a lighter bullet because somebody got the mold numbers mixed up and that might lead to problems. Substitute a power charge for intended for a larger case for the proper powder charge in a smaller case and you can have problems. The number of mistakes almost have no end.

This site gets visited by many folks just sticking their toe in the water of reloading and bullet casting. Mistakes that are obvious to folks who have spend lots of time at the rodeo are invisible to these folks. We therefore have a responsibility to these folks to make certain what we post can't be misconscrewed and get folks hurt. This is not just a place where the cognoscente hang out. At least that is the way I look at these things.

I know I irritate folks at times with my seeming picky ways, but I am just "trying to look out for the folks". I heard that last phrase somewhere. I take no pleasure in irritating folks just for the sake of being a jerk.

When I started out with serious shooting and handloading in the late 50's, I was mentored by a bunch of older men who were more concerned about my well being and those around me, than they were about my feelings. Later, I learned the Cowboy trade from a bunch of older men who were for more interested in me "making a hand", than in coddling my feelings. Standing in the waters of calm reflection, I don't think the early rebukes did me any harm, but helped form my character and life in a positive way. I just hope that still works that way. We seem to be living in a touchy feely times, so the old ways may not work any more.

[Char-Gar]

I am the one who misspoke on the mold number. The others just responded to my mistake. Of course, I do not have a Lyman mold, mine is from one of the GBs here on the site.

Thank you for the advice and I will try to find a few of the bollits you mention to try out prior to getting a mold cut.

Both the Hensley and Gibbs 68 and Lyman 452460 were head to head competitors in Bulleye pistol shooting during the 40's, 50' and 60's. Both had their fans and both won matches.

I have always liked the Lyman bullet better, because it had a longer body which I felt took the rifling better. But that is something for which I have no proof and probably isn't true. In my mind, it just looks better, so it must be better. :-)

While both bullets were designed for powder puff target loads, they hold their accuracy when pushed to full velocity (850 - 900 fps). They make great field and social bullets as well. They really are all purpose bullets that will feed well in most any 1911 pistol.

The RCBS Cowboy bullet is late on the scene and not designed for the 45 ACP round in the 1911 pistol, but has been adapted to it with much success. It was the basis for several modifications we did as group buys several years ago.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Please accept my apology for mucking up this post. I wrongly diverted the 454423 on a semi-auto post into the direction of the little used Schofield revolver cartridge.

When asked for my load data I wrongly thought I was responding to author of the original post. I didn't double check my assumption.

Then I asked for clarification if I was being asked for my revolver load data or my ACP load data, but I did not wait for that clarification before I posted my load data for the revolver, on a ACP post.

I carried the mold number 454423 along without checking that my mold is 452423, a mistake because I keep an eye out for the difference between 454424 and 452424, and I was unaware 454423 was never made.

I appreciate Char-Gar for getting my feet back on the ground and reminding me to keep my eyes open well before howling off with data out of place. Great moderating.

[Char-Gar]

Silver, my ears/eye perk up ever time the bullet is mentioned for 452423 has have a favorite of mine for 50 years. Here is an article I wrote about my early experiences with it some years back. It was first published in The Fouling Shot (Cast Bullet Association) and then John Taffin picked it up and placed it on his site.

452423 has made a real comeback from the time I wrote this piece. I am surprised how many people use it and how many folks have made clones of this bullet. Since the time I wrote this Glen Fryxell gave me an older Lyman 4 cavity mold and I bought one of our 6 hole custom Lee molds when we did a series of group buys. Glen is a HP nut and sent me a bunch of 452423 HPs to test from an original Lyman mold in his collection. This occasioned me to have Buckshot HP my original old Idea SC mentioned in the article.

A few years back some of the guy did lots of research on the original Keith designs and produced all of them again in Lee custom molds. They did an excellent job and I have the full set. I have three or four thousand of them sitting around the shop waiting to be flung downrange. Enjoy..

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

[redgum]

Just picked up a Series 80 in 45 ACP. I have been reading the stickies and searching through old threads. Lots of stuff to figure out for this old revolver fan. One thing I know, I will need some different boolit molds. All of mine are fit for revolvers, maybe one will work in the 1911, the Lyman 454423. The others are heavier and SWC or RNFP. They might work but I figure to start out with the standards and learn the basics. I have been down this road before and usually end up getting rid of the self loader and getting another revolver, but I really want to like the 1911. Maybe this time.

Anyway, back to the stickies!

Is the gun stainless Or blue?
I believe the stainless s'80 pistols came standard with a throated barrel, which was said to substantially improve feeding reliability with various blunt nosed bullets suck as hollowpoints & match semi-wadcutters.

I'm sure with some tinkering you will find a load that works for you.

Good luck, and congratulations on your new acquisition.

[StrawHat]

This is a blued pistol, apparently unfired since leaving the factory or fired very little. I am very new to the 1911 but very fond of the 45 ACP cartridge and load it for several revolvers. I will tread lightly and cautiously into the arena of self loaders as I know very little about them. I am possibly alone in this area as most fellows my age are well schooled in the platform. I am interested in boolit shapes and will be buying castings for the first bit. When I find something that works, then I will get the mold.

I already load the 452423 for my revolvers and will try that, just not right away.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Char-Gar, great article, I really enjoyed it. I have a few 452423 cast up and lubed just sitting ready for loading. I'm going to have to come up with a recipe for them. With I had a .45 AR revolver.

My current load for the the .45 ACP in my Colt 1911's is 452374 with 6.0 to 6.5 gr of Unique. I don't have my chronograph data in front of me for this load.

[StrawHat]

This followed me home, can I keep it?

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Dan%20Wesson/001_zpsdfd2c4d1.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/StrawHat/media/Dan%20Wesson/001_zpsdfd2c4d1.jpg.html)

Dan Wesson CCO. The price was right!

[doc1876]

NO. Young man, you need to learn responsibility. Ship it to me right now, and if you learn the error of your ways, in a few years we can talk about it!

[MtGun44]

452423 will almost certainly work, but I strongly agree with gray wolf - get a
good copy of an H&G 68 (with 452460 as a VERY good alternative, but only
99.8% as reliable a feeder - really) and use it.

ALSO - KEY POINT: Taper crimp as a separate operation to about .466 or so,
NOT crimping as you seat which works fine in revolver boolit designs like
the 452423, if you seat to an LOA which puts the crimp in the crimp groove.

IME - a real H&G 68 seated to 1.250 to 1.260 LOA and taper crimped to .466 will
pretty much guarantee to feed in a 1911.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

Taper crimp to .466? I can get .470 when I measure mine.

[MtGun44]

IMO, .470 tc is asking for a failure to close. It will work most of the time, in most
guns, but that isn't good enough for me. IME, the most common failure to feed
in a 1911 for new reloaders has been inadequate taper crimp. There is no downside
to going about .004 tighter and the benefit is elimination of that every-once-in-a-while
failure to close.

With no excuses in IPSC competition, where I spent three decades competing, you
get to be totally committed to 100% reliable ammo.

Bill

[Stephen Cohen]

I still have a RCBS 225 gr round nose mould with the gas check shank removed, It casts a tad over 230 and is as accurate as you could want. Shot many thousands in my 45s both Auto and revolver, till our leaders decided our 45s had to be destroyed.

[6bg6ga]

I've used .470 for about 30 years now in all my 45's as well as some that have belonged to others. I've never suffered one failure to feed. In addition it also feeds in the 45 carbine. I've never questioned any of your posts but I believe I will stay with my .470 Could it possibly be a small difference in chambers? My roundup is 70 series National Match Colt, Colt officers, Sieg Tac Pac, Eaa Witness, and a Hi Point Carbine.

[MtGun44]

First, to clarify - it is not actually a "failure to feed" that I am talking about, but a
"failure to close" where the round is just a hair short of fully chambering. Often this
is fixed by bumping the slide with the heel of the hand.

A lot of the guns that would occasionally burp with a .470 crimp were competition IPSC
guns and were very dirty. I commonly shot 300+ rounds several times a week in practice
and then a pair of matches every Friday night and one long Saturday match or two each
month. I carefully cleaned the gun every six months, whether it needed it or not. ;-)
Lubed before each match, though.

I imagine that many/most guns that are kept scrupulously clean and have
non-match chambers are likely to have less issues. OTOH - there is zero harm in going
.004 tighter, in my experience, and a tad of reliability to be gained. In guns with standard,
relatively loose chambers, maybe it is less important.

Now I need to go and run a test where I use the softest alloys and compare my best match
loads with .466 crimp and .470 crimp to see if there is any fine degree of accuracy out
there to be found. I normally am most interested in 100% reliable functioning, esp
with no alibis in IPSC. With normal commercial hard cast (what I used then and for
much of my "non-critical" .45 ACP shooting now) I do not think there is any issue with
tighter crimp. BUT, just maybe, with very soft boolits there may be a tiny smidge of
accuracy left laying on the table , so to speak, with a tight crimp. I will investigate when
time permits and report back. Until then, my experience is "tighter is better" with TCs
in .45 ACP with commercial hard H&G 68s.

Bill