Springfield Trapdoor Carbine in .50 Alaskan ?

[JesterGrin_1]

Awhile back I posted about what to do with my Old Trapdoor Carbine that has a rusted bore and chamber with some good feed back on the subject. But I did not feel it would be worth the funds needed for a replacement barrel.

So recently I was looking about maybe having it re chambered and the bore re bored to 50-70 so I gave Jess a call and he suggested the 50 Alaskan as he informed me he did the same thing to one of his old Trapdoors.

The downside from the get go is Brass is darn expensive. But I could be wrong but it might be a good Hog Thumper.

Any thoughts on this?

[hickstick_10]

Get it relined or go for the 50-70.

[John Allen]

As hickstick said. The 50/70 is a great cartridge.

[Outpost75]

+1 another for. 50-70. If it waz hood enough to shoot buffalo and kill Indians, why go with anything other than a period cartridge?

[StrawHat]

I have a Springfield Single Shot Rifle chambered in 50-70. I like it a lot. The more I use it, the less I see the need for the small bore 1873. The 50-70 is easy to work up a load, easy to shoot and accurate. It hits game hard. I would imagine the 50 Alaskan would be more of the same, not sure more is better.

[rockrat]

Had jes do a 50 AK on a 1874 sharps clone. Does it shoot!!!. 50-70 brass isn't cheap too

[hickstick_10]

Stupid question incoming.

Are you guys loading these to winchester 71 levels?

[JesterGrin_1]

Had jes do a 50 AK on a 1874 sharps clone. Does it shoot!!!. 50-70 brass isn't cheap too

I do not know. Does it Shoot?

Sorry I do not remember the exact reasons Jes gave to cut it for 50 Alaskan over the 50-70 but since Jes does this kind of thing I would think he would have a darn good reason.

[Tatume]

The big advantage of the 50 Alaskan in this application is the size. Because the 348 Winchester cartridge case is both longer and of greater base diameter than the 45-70, rechambering to 50 Alaskan completely cleans up the old chamber. The rim is the same size on both cartridges, so the extractor and rim counter-bore are unchanged. The pressure of the loads can be held down somewhat below 45-70 level and still achieve a gain in performance over that cartridge, much as John Linebaugh demonstrated with his 45 Colt revolver conversions.

[Tatume]

The downside from the get go is Brass is darn expensive. But I could be wrong but it might be a good Hog Thumper.

Recently I purchased 200 348 Winchester cases at Midway: http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=348+winchester

where they remain in stock. When my barrel is ready for my CPA Stevens 44-1/2 I expect to load 100 and put 100 cases in reserve. By this strategy I will be able to shoot to my heart's content without worrying about brass availability. When I start using the second 100 I'll start looking for 200 more new cases.

As your 50 Alaskan will run at lower pressure than the base 348 Winchester, I expect your brass situation to be even better than mine. You might want to grab some cases at Midway now, as they are a "seasonal run" and are not available all the time.

Take care, Tom

[Tatume]

But I could be wrong but it might be a good Hog Thumper. Any thoughts on this?

It should be a good anything-that-walks thumper! With bullets that range in weight from 400 to 500+ grains, at speeds greater than any revolver can produce, you should be at least as well armed as any handgun hunter. As these fellows hunt everything up to and including Cape buffalo and elephant, your "Hog Thumper" will be in good company.

Take care, Tom

[bob208]

with what real trapdoor carbines are worth. why spend all the money to make into something it is not. get it relined to .45-70. it will kill hogs. it will add to the value of the gun. it will not cost any more then getting it changed to another caliber. brass dies and molds will cost less and be easier to get.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I say go with what was suggested , he does good work and knows what he talks about , have had 2 guns rebored by him , I dropped them off and picked them up , he even suggested what powder to use in the one , if I had a trapdoor that was in poor bore condition and was for shooting not collecting I would rebore . But the 50-70 is also a good cartridge , your choice in the end .

[Ed in North Texas]

Given that the .50 Alaskan was developed for post 1900 rifles with a 40,000 PSI limit, and the Trapdoor PSI limitation is generally agreed to be 28,000 PSI, I'd be concerned about such a switch. Not that I would have a problem with making sure my loads stayed within the proper bounds, but I'm of an age where I give consideration as to who will have my firearms next. I can't guarantee that a Trapdoor would not be loaded with a Max load cartridge, and I don't think it would be such a good idea to try that. I have .50 Alaskan cases, they fit my Swede Roller when cut down (not all 12.7x44R chambers will accept the .50 Alaskan case). Used with Black they will last long after I'm gone.

[Tatume]

Hi Ed,

That's a valid point. I wonder if it would help to mark the barrel with something different from 50 AK? Perhaps 51 JES? That way a new owner would have to search for appropriate loading data. A considerate owner could keep a loading log with the gun (I do this will all of my guns).

Take care, Tom

[kootne]

For what it's worth, just checked a 1884 (45/70) & a 1868 (50/70) as issued rifles. Barrel diameter at the breech is the same, however diameter at the muzzle is .040" bigger on the 50/70. Every body will probably draw a somewhat different conclusion from that information but I would think a newer barrel of better steel should be considered and don't think you will find many who would put a 40k cartridge in a 28k action. If you do, can it be short chambered enough so somebody someday don't put a 40k load in? You could trim your brass back so your lighter loads fit. Hope my grandson don't buy that gun 15 or 20 years down the road.
Please think it over carefully,
kootne

[JesterGrin_1]

When Jess Does rebore a Firearm he does mark the barrel for what it is cut for.

As for someone else blowing it up down the road. That same person could have the same problem with a 45-70 due to some High Pressure factory loads now available for it.

This is why Marlin came out with the 450 Marlin. It is pretty much the same as the 45-70 Government as far as loading. But the 450 Marlin uses factory high end loads while most factory 45-70 loads are in the trapdoor area of loads. Except as mentioned that a few places now produce high pressure 45-70 loads. But they are marked as to what Firearms they should be used in.

And I am sorry if this sounds cold but if a person picks up any old weapon and then puts high pressure loads in it and it blows up it is called natural selection. And the saddest part is another fine old Firearm is lost.

[JesterGrin_1]

Get it relined or go for the 50-70.

If I could find someone that could reline the rifle for the 45-70 Government and do a good job for about the same price as Jess of about $250.00 then I would probably go that rout.

[StrawHat]

If I could find someone that could reline the rifle for the 45-70 Government and do a good job for about the same price as Jess of about $250.00 then I would probably go that rout.

I am told Bob Hoyt in Pennsylvania does a good job. I do not have experience nor contact info.

[bob208]

bob hoyt in Fairfield pa. can reline it to .45-70 for less then 250. I will look p his phone number. he does great work. all he does is muzzleloaders and single shots.

[bob208]

Robert Hoyt
Freischutz Shop
700 Fairfield station road
Fairfield pa. 17320
phone 717-642-6696

you will have to call or write ne does not have a website.

[John Taylor]

I don't think I would go with the 50 AK. Buffalo bore loads ammo for it but it would be way to much for a trapdoor. Some info on the cartridge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Alaskan Basically it is reverse engineered, the 348 was made from 50 EX brass for the Winchester 71, shortened and bottle necked. The 50 AK is 348 brass blown out strait. You can make the same cartridge form 50 EX brass by cutting it off a bit. The rim size is a little bit bigger so putting it on an 1886 requires some of the same work involved when making one into a 50 EX ( the 71 carrier is already big enough). It might be better to go with the 50EX because factory loads will be at lower pressure. The original 50 EX was loaded with a 300 grain bullet and 110 grains of powder. Twist rates in the barrel ran from 1 in 60 down to 1 in 48 on the later guns. The same brass was loaded with a 450 grain bullet and 100 grains of powder and called the 50-100-450. Twist rates for the heavier bullet started at 1 in 48 and ended at 1 in 36. The 50 EX( 50-110) was called an express because of the high velocity of the short 300 grain bullet. The 50-70 would be a much better choice for a trapdoor.

[StrawHat]

Interesting info on the reverse engineering. Everything old is new again!

[Tatume]

The rim size is a little bit bigger...

The rim is only a nominal 0.002" larger than the 45-70. A mere 0.001" all around won't be noticed. Also, all those that I've actually measured were slightly smaller than SAAMI specs, making the rim sizes interchangeable.

Take care, Tom

[bigted]

my humble opinion is thusly ... keep it in a period era chamber as this grand old rifle is what it is. it will cost no more then going to some such modern chamber AND it will give the same satisfaction as it is intended to give ... OLD rifle and OLD chamber = OLD experience in loading and shooting.

heck i cant for the life of me figure out the why of taking any older action be they roller, trapdoor, falling block or any period issue action and muck it up with some new fangled chamber that would in any way be questionable in the shooting, loading, pressure qualifications of that old metal action! to say nothing of the sighting with the old sights.

keep it either 45-70 or maybe 50-70 is my vote ... aint mine so easy to give advise to another but ... there it is anyway... LOL ...:drinks:

[Green Lizzard]

what ted said

[StrawHat]

bigted, would you go with a period rechambering, say 30 Gov't?

[Mark Daiute]

bob hoyt in Fairfield pa. can reline it to .45-70 for less then 250. I will look p his phone number. he does great work. all he does is muzzleloaders and single shots.

And Krags and 03 Springfields and Model 1917's and M1 rifles.... He's done work for me.

I may be slow, I can't tell from the orginal post if this carbine was in 45-70 or 50-70. Stick with the original cartridge, keep it simple. I don't know about the 50-70 but the 45-70 loaded to trapdoor pressures can kill nearly anything on the planet.

[bigted]

bigted, would you go with a period rechambering, say 30 Gov't?

i guess this took me a bit by surprise ... trapdoors were only 50-70 or 45-70 chambers and this is the "period chamber's" i had in mind.

JUST TO BE CLEAR FOR SOME ... not sure who might read this ... DO NOT CHAMBER A TRAPDOOR OF ANY BUILD [new or old] TO A 30 GOV'T. PLEASE ... guess i didnt state WHAT period huh?

[JesterGrin_1]

I contacted Robert Hoyt and he said he could reline the carbine and I should get it back sometime this summer. So I will probably go that rout and bring it back to 45-70. Plus 45-70 will be allot cheaper to load than 50-70 or 50 Alaskan since I have the components.

Robert Hoyt
Freischutz Shop
700 Fairfield station road
Fairfield pa. 17320
phone 717-642-6696

[StrawHat]

Good to hear, let us know how it works out for you. What rifling are you going to use?

[JesterGrin_1]

I do not know what twist but he said a factory style with 3 groove rifling.