Cost of dies

[rodsvet]

I don't swage, but would consider it if the cost to start wasn't over a thousand dollars. When I look at the die sets and the look at say a set of regular reloading dies, I can't understand why for 3 or 4 swaging dies you pay 20 times more than reloading dies. I must be ignorant in the manufacturing costs and am not ragging on the guys who make them. I just think if RCBS can make dies to reload at $50. , then why do dies for swaging cost so much. Not trying to rattle any chains, just curious.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

What calibers? What kind of press you plan on using? Dedicated swage press? Reloading press?

I am no expert, but I do know that swage dies take ALOT more engineering and refinement (finish on the inside of the die) than reloading dies. Plus, they also require a series of punches. Yet even more machining to ultra-close tolerances. The extra time at the lathe costs extra money.

[rodsvet]

I am not trying to start a fight, just trying to get it right in my own mind. If it costs 5 times more to make swaging dies then OK, the dies should be around $2-250 a set. I can understand a small shop needs more dollars, especially at start up. But once the initial machining process is up and running, it seems the costs would then come down to a reasonable level. Again, I'm not trying to dump on the guys making the stuff.

[newcastter]

Since you used RCBS as your comparison why dont you give them a call? After all there name stands for Rock Chucker Bullet Swaging. I believe these die sets take a weeks+ in time, I dont know about you but I would'nt except 200-250 for a weeks worth of my work.

[rodsvet]

RCBS won't discuss their costs with anyone. And I understand that when you make thousands of anything, the volume brings costs down. And there isn't a large enough market for swaging dies for RCBS to tool up for it. If there was though, the price would be only double or triple what their reloading dies are. And the MSRP would be that high only because the market would bear it. So, I guess I now have my answer as to why they cost so much.

[rodsvet]

No, I wouldn't accept $250 for a weeks work. Reread you sentence, I think meant you would not accept $250. If it takes 1 week to make 1 set of dies then the die maker is in the wrong line of work. Anyway , it costs what it costs, and I've lost interest in this thread . Rod

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

And there isn't a large enough market for swaging dies for RCBS to tool up for it. If there was though, the price would be only double or triple what their reloading dies are.

How do you figure this?


And I understand that when you make thousands of anything, the volume brings costs down.

There is much more to the swage die process than you think.

[Reload3006]

maybe I can shed some light. All of the swage die makers are in comparison to ATK small potatoes. They dont have the mass purchasing ability that ATK does (ATK since you compared RCBS) So it costs all these guys more for raw materials. All the die makers Larry Blackmon, Corbin MFG, RCE LLC even Niemi dont heavily use CNC machinery. I know that perhaps most of the makers who do any volume May if they dont have their own sub contract the blanks for their dies. But the finish work is individualized and not mass produced. BT has a lot and he has a lot of money invested in his process. But he can't I am sure afford to buy 5 or ten million sets of die blanks that would enable him to get a cut in the costs of manufacturing. They are not really all that far out of line actually. Most machine shops are over $50 an hour and the shop I work at is over $100 an hour. I dont know how long it takes BT and others to make a set of dies. But I bet Cainman and Customcutter can chime in and tell you how long it takes them to make what they have made. I would make a wild guess that it would take me 20 to 30 hours to make a complete set of dies. What is your time worth. even 10 hours ant 100 an hour is over a grand. There is an enormous amount of polishing and hand work in these dies. I think personally they offer a darned good product at a very reasonable price.

[newcastter]

Im kinda glad the demand isn't as big, then there would be no 22lr brass laying around and I think this hobby is still flying under the govn't radar. It is the time and skill involved that makes these dies sets so expensive

[newcastter]

No, I wouldn't accept $250 for a weeks work. Reread you sentence, I think meant you would not accept $250. If it takes 1 week to make 1 set of dies then the die maker is in the wrong line of work. Anyway , it costs what it costs, and I've lost interest in this thread . Rod
HaHa yes I fixed that.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

So you ask a question and we give you answers...and you lose interest in the matter of 43 minutes! C'mon, patience. Here us out. There will be others along to give you more info. As I said before, I am no expert. The experts will come along shortly LOL!

[rodsvet]

I lose interest when you flame on me for simply asking a question. I don't want to argue or be a punching bag. Lets forget I upset you guys and move on to something we both know something about. Rod

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Flame on you?? I dont think so! I think we were giving you answers that contradicted the ones you already had made up in your mind. I flame NO ONE on this site for asking questions.

[newcastter]

Ya didn't see any flaming going on here...some pretty thin skin for what answers we gave you.
I believe we were all just trying to give you clarity on reality. If your intrest is gone then delete the thread and move on. Or do what IllinoisCoyoteHunter said and listen up for the true experts to chime in although I believe 1 for sure has already chimed in and it wasn't me. So far everyone that has chimed in owns a quality set of dies so I would listen up.

[rodsvet]

Good! Let's part friends and move on with the hobby (obsession). Rod

[Bent Ramrod]

Actually, RCBS did start out making dies to turn .22 shells into jacketed bullets. Fred Huntington made his first set because he couldn't buy bullets during WWII to hunt his favorite varmint, the Western Rock Chuck. The Rock Chuck Bullet Swage Company was named in its honor when Fred's friends started asking him if he was going to make more of them for sale.

Fred said the first die set went so easily that he figured he could make a lot of them and sell them. He made a lot of them all right--nine more sets before getting the second usable one. Turns out that no matter how you machine the cavities in the dies, when you heat treat them, the metal moves around, just a bit. Never the same bit, although with a lot of expensive experience a diemaker can minimize this and figure ways around it. But the last step, polishing the cavities and bringing them to proper polish (and making sure the bullet will come out of the die and at the right diameter) is a matter of finicky hand work, and lots of testing in between, that is finished only when it is finished.

Fred hired an experienced diemaker to make his dies and went back into the shop to invent the O-frame compound leverage press to minimize the stress and damage that other reloading presses suffered when they were used to swage bullets with his dies. This press made a terrific reloading press as well. So Fred started making reloading dies to sell with the press. He ran the numbers after a dozen years in business and realized he had a choice. He could make bullet swage dies in lots of 50, endure the delays when the diemaker was ill, on vacation or behind in his work, and sell them himself out of his shop, or he could hire semiskilled machine operators to make his presses and reloading dies, sell them to jobbers at a discount and go nationwide or better. Today, the RCBS Corp. is a worldwide organization that makes everything for the reloader except the Rock Chuck Bullet Swage die set.

When Corbin started out, he couldn't understand why all these die makers up in Oregon were so content to be small-time, turning out a die now and then but never getting to a production scale big enough to need more than a 1-inch ad in the back of a gun magazine. He set out to be the household name in bullet swage dies. He got as close to mass production as it was possible to get, but his prices and his lead times have increased ever since. A lot of posts on this Forum involved people who were going to break the barrier and offer quality bullet dies at low prices. They might have started out with low prices, but the ones that are still in business quickly realized the value of their experience, time and trouble. A lot of them made one or two sets and seem to have disappeared.

There really ought to be a sticky with all the posts related to this eternal question bundled together as a sort of textbook. It's easy to think that this problem can be solved with carbide tooling and computer machine control. It's also easy to wonder why a double rifle costs way more than two single barreled rifles. It only takes twice the number of triggers, firing mechanisms and barrels; what's the big deal? The problem is getting the thing to shoot at the end. All hand labor, by experts.

[newcastter]

Excellent explanation...

[Theditchman]

Are you telling me there are Flamers on this site.....lol

[newcastter]

I am going to leave this one alone

[customcutter]

Trust me the pro's can make it look easy, that's why they're pro's. I know I've seen a couple of post where some one asked Mr. Lee of Lee Precision Dies about making swaging dies, and he basically said it would never happen. His son was the first one to make carbide dies affordable, IIRC.

Trust me if you are not an experienced tool and die maker, you would be better off getting a job flipping burgers for $5/hr to pay for the dies. I've spent several hundred hours at least, and a couple hundred bucks on materials. I already had +15,000 worth of equipment in my garage. I became so obsessed this past summer that I was neglecting my lawn business. By the time I figured out the guys weren't taking care of business, I lost 20+ accounts. That's $20,000/yr. Some lessons aren't cheap.

But all that said I'm making mine because I want to learn how to use my equipment. There isn't a class nearby and it would cost me +$5000/yr and an hr drive each way. I don't shoot that much, but I just think there is coming a time when we won't be able to buy primers, powder, or bullets. I like being self reliant that way, I guess I'm just strange.

$1000 is a bargain when projectiles become priceless.

[newcastter]

Not sure if you guys missed it but homeboy wants to drop this subject quick!!!

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yeah, I guess he thought we were all crazy for paying the price for our swage dies and he was gonna tell us we should be paying much less.

We told him what he didn't want to hear...that they ACTUALLY are worth the cost!

I've got some old Corbin dies I would sell him for $150 each. :grin:

[303british.com]

And on or about the same time that Fred Huntington was messing with his dies and "swaging press", a couple of other fellows were developing their own method. Vernon Speer (Speer Bullets) and Joyce Hornady (Hornady Bullet Co.) worked together briefly making bullets made from 22 rimfire cases. Like Huntington, they had difficulties getting bullets, so they made a machine that converted 22LR cases into jackets. Their partnership lasted a year maybe and they split to form their own companies.

They weren't the only ones experimenting with the converting 22LR cases into bullet jackets. Harvey Donaldson, was one of the first people to make dies to make .224 bullets from fired .22 cases. Ted Smith made dies in the 1950s (SAS Dies), and the Corbins bought out his operation when Smith was older and no longer up to the task of making dies. Of course, there were others too.

Standard commercial .224 bullet jackets are .705 inches long - the same length as LR cases whose rims have been unfolded. Since then, companies like Berger and Corbin have made commercial jackets of different lengths for the growing number of .224 bullet weights.

Progress has advanced the method . Frankly, I'm not a fan of the Rockchucker as a bullet press, but it had to start somewhere, right? It's a good reloading press though. Huntington made the right choice when he decided to concentrate on the reloading side and dumped the die manufacturing biz.

Cheap and bullet making are mutually exclusive. :)

[Garyshome]

Thanks for the low down, Now I don't have to search all over the place to find this stuff!

[Nickle]

303, thanks for that tidbit on Harvey Donaldson.

I knew the man, became somewhat friends with him. He was a fellow benchrest shooter, and experimenter. Great guy.

I met him at a BR shoot in Fasset PA. I went with my father, but didn't shoot competitively yet. He knocked the exhaust loose on his Corvette, I wired it up for him, so it didn't drag on the ground, and he could drive it to get it fixed. He handed me a $20 bill, and I refused it, blowing the cost off. He finally got my father to convince me to take it. I was 12 at the time. Anyways, he was impressed enough with my honesty that we became somewhat friends.

To this day I own a 219 Donaldson Wasp, and use it for competition. It won't be my last, as I have a reamer, and will build more of them.

[newcastter]

303, thanks for that tidbit on Harvey Donaldson.

I knew the man, became somewhat friends with him. He was a fellow benchrest shooter, and experimenter. Great guy.

I met him at a BR shoot in Fasset PA. I went with my father, but didn't shoot competitively yet. He knocked the exhaust loose on his Corvette, I wired it up for him, so it didn't drag on the ground, and he could drive it to get it fixed. He handed me a $20 bill, and I refused it, blowing the cost off. He finally got my father to convince me to take it. I was 12 at the time. Anyways, he was impressed enough with my honesty that we became somewhat friends.

To this day I own a 219 Donaldson Wasp, and use it for competition. It won't be my last, as I have a reamer, and will build more of them.

I love hearing those kind of stories which I am afraid are getting fewer and fewer as the days go on..

[Utah Shooter]

Another interesting thing is that 22lr used to be Copper cases and not Brass. I think they switched to brass somewhere in the mid 1940's. Imagine de rimming Copper.... Perhaps not even having to anneal.

[Nickle]

I love hearing those kind of stories which I am afraid are getting fewer and fewer as the days go on..

Yeah, we're a long ways away from the late 60's, when this was.

Guys like Harvey and Seeley (Masker) are long gone too.

[303british.com]

303, thanks for that tidbit on Harvey Donaldson.

I knew the man, became somewhat friends with him. He was a fellow benchrest shooter, and experimenter. Great guy.

I met him at a BR shoot in Fasset PA. I went with my father, but didn't shoot competitively yet. He knocked the exhaust loose on his Corvette, I wired it up for him, so it didn't drag on the ground, and he could drive it to get it fixed. He handed me a $20 bill, and I refused it, blowing the cost off. He finally got my father to convince me to take it. I was 12 at the time. Anyways, he was impressed enough with my honesty that we became somewhat friends.

To this day I own a 219 Donaldson Wasp, and use it for competition. It won't be my last, as I have a reamer, and will build more of them.


I love hearing those kind of stories which I am afraid are getting fewer and fewer as the days go on..

I like hearing stories too, and humans are story tellers by nature. Before paper and the written language, that's how humans passed along knowledge and history from generation to generation. There's no reason to stop face to face conversations. Unfortunately, we are at the leading edge of the computer bump. It will settle down, but in the mean time our children aren't learning how to be social. When we have to run commercials and have special instructors come into the classroom to talk about how to behave, something has been lost. :(

As a species, we're less social, but talk more (via things like the Internets, texting, etc.). That's a double edged sword. While it's nice to communicate instantly with someone in Australia or Germany, many don't get out and talk with their neighbours as much. Younger generations - basically anyone under 40 - have less refined social skills. Facebook and webboards aren't the same. Unfortunately, it will take a few more years before we're sitting face to face with others again. It will happen, but not soon enough for me.

[Nickle]

303, that is soooo true.

"Social networking" is an oxymoron.

[Pavogrande]

9339893399934009340193402934039340493405
an early set of fred's dies -- don't think they could be duplicated at a thosand dollars -

[Dave18]

but I just think there is coming a time when we won't be able to buy primers, powder, or bullets. I like being self reliant that way, I guess I'm just strange.

$1000 is a bargain when projectiles become priceless.

which is why others are learning to cast and look at swaging ect,

I don't think its strange, its being realistic to what we see happening around us:(

[fredj338]

Well I know for a fact RCBS or whom ever won't make you a custom set of dies for say a wildcat round for less than $100-$150. There may also be a setup fee. SO call it $200 for 2-dies & say a shell holder. So $1000 for a full set fo swaging dies, base bunches, etc, seems expensive but reasonable for all the hand work that must be done. If it were easy, I could do it myself but then it isn't easy, so you are paying for the machinist skill & knowledge.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Back when I wrote for Precision Shooting Magazine (1988-2001), likely the most famous bullet die maker in the world Ferris Pindell (the second "P" in 6PPC) was charging roughly a thousand dollars to make a set of J-bullet dies. That was about 1990-91 when I met both the "P's" at the Super Shoot. He made most of the dies for Sierra for many years. With swaged here, you add the cost of a core die as well. He figured he had close to a hundred hours making a single set at a time for someone. Back then, only serious BR shooters took the time and expense of shooting their own bullets.

It ain't the easiest way to get rich...

Rich

[Nickle]

Hee Hee, I'll let most of you in for some shocking info.

$1000 for a die set? That's pretty cheap, when you come down to it.

I know, you're thinking Nickle has gone nuts.

But, have I?

Priced up Rorschach, Detsch or Niemi dies lately?

I don't know Detsch. I hear he's a good guy.

I do know Bill Niemi. I haven't talked to him in years, but he is a good guy. I don't know if he's still alive, but I think his son Brian is, though. Another real good guy.

Rorschach? Well, they're kind of lengdary aren't they?

Those 3 are all carbide dies. They cost a few thousand a set.

Yup, lots of hours into making a set of dies, unlike reloading dies.

[Cane_man]

and making the dies as a hobby is just plain fun... but i can see how doing it as a business would take the fun out of it and i am sure you would end up making about $3.75 per hour when it is all said and done...

[Prospector Howard]

I'm wondering if the cost of liablity insurance for the die manufacturers wouldn't add to the cost also. An LLC will help, but in this sue happy world we live in; I'd imagine most of the bigger companies also have insurance for the dummy that tries to blame the die maker if he blows up his gun.

[aaronraad]

9339893399934009340193402934039340493405
an early set of fred's dies -- don't think they could be duplicated at a thosand dollars -

Sorry to interrupt your thread[smilie=p:

Do they split at the ogive?

[Pavogrande]

aaronraad --
yes, it appears that they do -- I have not actually used them yet - Need to make a ram -
I reckon it will be a slooow process.

[marten]

Only make dies for myself now, amazing how little someone else's time is valued!
As has been noted earlier, the time spent polishing will always be a pain plus when a die gets buggered during heat treat...
One thing not to forget is the time in making reamers that can be a time drain too!

[Cane_man]

no doubt Marten... making reamers, laps, the die itself, and lapping all take a lot of time

[Gunnut 45/454]

I guess I got lucky when I bought my Corbin die set - No wait time. In stock and sent out, recieved within a week. Exspensive yes. But I bit the bullet so to say. I figure it will pay for itself in 2 years or so. The best thing is I'll never be without bullets for my AR's again-EVER! Alot of times since the great ammo sortage the ONLY brass I find is 22LRs!

[Methuselah3]

Guess I'll be playing the Devil's advocate here but there is some quandary always about the cost of dies. I grant that if an individual has to make a single set of dies at a time, buy the reamers, send out for heat treat, hand lap, make laps etc that $1000 is probably a bargain. I just think that RCBS, Hornady, Lee etc don't buy reamers for a few set of dies. They also don't hand make laps, hand lap and hand machine the blanks for any part they make nor do they have others doing heat treating, metal buying etc.And there is an outfit called Pacific Tool and Gage ( http://shop.pacifictoolandgauge.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_127&products_id=1096 ) that sells die blanks for under $20 each. RCBS/Lee/Hornady have all the in house tech and expertise in alloys and heat treat from years of experience.. My guess would be that they have hundreds of thousands of dollars of CNC machines, lapping machines, tooling to cut and polish carbide and a plethora of other equipment necessary to machine and QC their product and Lee for one will sell you a three dies carbide set for less than $50. Having been trying to make my own dies,I have found what everyone else has found is that when you aren't actually a real production machine shop, you can't amortize your time and equipment over years and thousands of components to get the price down. I suspect that the biggest reasons that the big boys don't make swage dies would be liability . The hardest part to make appears to be the point forming dies and make it smooth, hard and tough enough to get the job done in a small C press. Swage dies for pistol bullets 9mm and above are a piece of cake compared to 22 and smaller calibers and prices reflect that. And rifle 6 to 9 ogive just adds to the problem.
Now what I would like to know is if anyone here has successfully made a point forming die for their own use and how that was done with crude apparatus including a lathe, mill and tool steel w1 or 01. Thanks for all the chat on this thread.

[pretzelxx]

Lets just say the only reason haven't bought into it is because none of my weapons are match grade and I don't have the money. The short bit that I've read from other threads and the way the bullets look, I would have started at swaging in a heart beat.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

holding tolerances to the fourth decimal place is not really easy...

[Bent Ramrod]

Fred Huntington had at least 10 years' experience making bullet swage dies and comparing their return on investment to that of making cartridge reloading dies. He discontinued the bullet swage dies in the mid-1950's. When Dave Wolfe asked him in the mid-70's why RCBS didn't make their namesake bullet swaging dies any more, Fred replied, "There was no money in them."

[Cane_man]

Now what I would like to know is if anyone here has successfully made a point forming die for their own use and how that was done with crude apparatus including a lathe, mill and tool steel w1 or 01. Thanks for all the chat on this thread.

Several forum members have done this and documented their efforts. I have a thread/diary going right now where I am making 7mm rifle swaging dies, and i am getting ready to make the pointing die now... it can be done at home with a 7x12 hobby lathe and O1...